Nate Nagel wrote:

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story
short. Am selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and
wrote up two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult
to pull grounds to these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also
there are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I
don't want to open that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack
of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs to be corrected
leads to the request to ground *everything.* ....

It sounds like the only issue is what to do in terms of making sure that the
house sale goes through. The inspector just noted that the two receptacles
are "ungrounded". That doesn't necessarily indicate any basis for the buyer
backing out of the deal unless your agreement of sale says otherwise.

But, what I would do is simply replace the two cited outlets with GFCI
receptacles and put the same sticker on each of them ("GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground"). That would be easier than trying to prove through some
test that the existing receptacles are already GFCI protected. And, it
would enable the buyers to plug in any appliances etc. that use 3-prong
plugs. All of that would be code compliant, so there would most likely be
no basis for the buyer to try to get out of the deal since there would be no
defect that needs to be corrected. Also, if they later asked to have the
other 5 or 6 two-prong receptacles changed to 3-prong GFCI outlets in the
same manner (with the stickers) I would just do that.

On Jun 8, 11:04*am, "RogerT" wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story
*short. Am selling house, got offer. *Home inspector came through and
wrote up two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult
to pull grounds to these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also
there are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I
don't want to open that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack
of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs to be corrected
leads to the request to ground *everything.* ....

It sounds like the only issue is what to do in terms of making sure that the
house sale goes through. *The inspector just noted that the two receptacles
are "ungrounded". *That doesn't necessarily indicate any basis for the buyer
backing out of the deal unless your agreement of sale says otherwise.

But, what I would do is simply replace the two cited outlets with GFCI
receptacles and put the same sticker on each of them ("GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground"). *That would be easier than trying to prove through some
test that the existing receptacles are already GFCI protected. *And, it
would enable the buyers to plug in any appliances etc. that use 3-prong
plugs. *All of that would be code compliant, so there would most likely be
no basis for the buyer to try to get out of the deal since there would be no
defect that needs to be corrected. *Also, if they later asked to have the
other 5 or 6 two-prong receptacles changed to 3-prong GFCI outlets in the
same manner (with the stickers) I would just do that.

see previous post - everything is already using 3-prong receps that
are properly GFCI protected. Inspector just plugged in his cube
tester and said they were ungrounded - and apparently disregarded the
blue stickers! This is the level of knowledge that I am apparently
dealing with here... I don't like the idea of using two GFCIs on the
same circuit - seems to me that would be a problem for the buyers if
they actually did trip one.

nate

On 6/8/2011 11:34 AM, N8N wrote:
On Jun 8, 11:04 am, wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story
short. Am selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and
wrote up two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult
to pull grounds to these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also
there are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I
don't want to open that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack
of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs to be corrected
leads to the request to ground *everything.* ....

It sounds like the only issue is what to do in terms of making sure that the
house sale goes through. The inspector just noted that the two receptacles
are "ungrounded". That doesn't necessarily indicate any basis for the buyer
backing out of the deal unless your agreement of sale says otherwise.

But, what I would do is simply replace the two cited outlets with GFCI
receptacles and put the same sticker on each of them ("GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground"). That would be easier than trying to prove through some
test that the existing receptacles are already GFCI protected. And, it
would enable the buyers to plug in any appliances etc. that use 3-prong
plugs. All of that would be code compliant, so there would most likely be
no basis for the buyer to try to get out of the deal since there would be no
defect that needs to be corrected. Also, if they later asked to have the
other 5 or 6 two-prong receptacles changed to 3-prong GFCI outlets in the
same manner (with the stickers) I would just do that.

see previous post - everything is already using 3-prong receps that
are properly GFCI protected. Inspector just plugged in his cube
tester and said they were ungrounded - and apparently disregarded the
blue stickers! This is the level of knowledge that I am apparently
dealing with here... I don't like the idea of using two GFCIs on the
same circuit - seems to me that would be a problem for the buyers if
they actually did trip one.

nate

That is the problem when inspection went from common sense to "I am from
the government, I have no experience and I have to exactly follow my
instructions".

I know of a bunch of homes that were simply torn down because of this.
These are homes that would have been great homes for someone as a first
home or for someone who wanted to build some sweat equity.

Usual deal I am familiar with is someones parents pass on. They don't
need a house so they list the house for sale. House is well built and in
good condition. So when a prospective buyer arrives inspectors follow
and then they produce a shopping list: according to the current code the
rise of the stair treads is 1/4" too much, according to the current code
there are insufficient electrical outlets, according to the current code
the sewage stack is incorrect, according to the current code the bedroom
windows don't meet egress standards and on and on. So it simply makes
more sense to knock the place down than to do all of the work that is
noted as necessary.

So

On Jun 8, 11:46*am, George wrote:
On 6/8/2011 11:34 AM, N8N wrote:





On Jun 8, 11:04 am, *wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story
* short. Am selling house, got offer. *Home inspector came through and
wrote up two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult
to pull grounds to these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also
there are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I
don't want to open that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack
of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs to be corrected
leads to the request to ground *everything.* ....

It sounds like the only issue is what to do in terms of making sure that the
house sale goes through. *The inspector just noted that the two receptacles
are "ungrounded". *That doesn't necessarily indicate any basis for the buyer
backing out of the deal unless your agreement of sale says otherwise.

But, what I would do is simply replace the two cited outlets with GFCI
receptacles and put the same sticker on each of them ("GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground"). *That would be easier than trying to prove through some
test that the existing receptacles are already GFCI protected. *And, it
would enable the buyers to plug in any appliances etc. that use 3-prong
plugs. *All of that would be code compliant, so there would most likely be
no basis for the buyer to try to get out of the deal since there would be no
defect that needs to be corrected. *Also, if they later asked to have the
other 5 or 6 two-prong receptacles changed to 3-prong GFCI outlets in the
same manner (with the stickers) I would just do that.

see previous post - everything is already using 3-prong receps that
are properly GFCI protected. *Inspector just plugged in his cube
tester and said they were ungrounded - and apparently disregarded the
blue stickers! *This is the level of knowledge that I am apparently
dealing with here... *I don't like the idea of using two GFCIs on the
same circuit - seems to me that would be a problem for the buyers if
they actually did trip one.

nate

That is the problem when inspection went from common sense to "I am from
the government, I have no experience and I have to exactly follow my
instructions".

I know of a bunch of homes that were simply torn down because of this.
These are homes that would have been great homes for someone as a first
home or for someone who wanted to build some sweat equity.

Usual deal I am familiar with is someones parents pass on. They don't
need a house so they list the house for sale. House is well built and in
good condition. So when a prospective buyer arrives inspectors follow
and then they produce a shopping list: according to the current code the
rise of the stair treads is 1/4" too much, according to the current code
there are insufficient electrical outlets, according to the current code
the sewage stack is incorrect, according to the current code the bedroom
windows don't meet egress standards and on and on. So it simply makes
more sense to knock the place down than to do all of the work that is
noted as necessary.


Actually the city guy was cool. this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...

I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight

nate

N8N wrote:
On Jun 8, 11:04 am, "RogerT" wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method
of demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story
short. Am selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and
wrote up two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually
having the blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No
Equipment Ground" (duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult
to pull grounds to these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also
there are a approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house
that I haven't grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I
don't want to open that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack
of a ground at these receps is a fault that needs to be corrected
leads to the request to ground *everything.* ....

It sounds like the only issue is what to do in terms of making sure
that the house sale goes through. The inspector just noted that the
two receptacles are "ungrounded". That doesn't necessarily indicate
any basis for the buyer backing out of the deal unless your
agreement of sale says otherwise.

But, what I would do is simply replace the two cited outlets with
GFCI receptacles and put the same sticker on each of them ("GFCI
Protected - No Equipment Ground"). That would be easier than trying
to prove through some test that the existing receptacles are already
GFCI protected. And, it would enable the buyers to plug in any
appliances etc. that use 3-prong plugs. All of that would be code
compliant, so there would most likely be no basis for the buyer to
try to get out of the deal since there would be no defect that needs
to be corrected. Also, if they later asked to have the other 5 or 6
two-prong receptacles changed to 3-prong GFCI outlets in the same
manner (with the stickers) I would just do that.

see previous post - everything is already using 3-prong receps that
are properly GFCI protected. Inspector just plugged in his cube
tester and said they were ungrounded - and apparently disregarded the
blue stickers! This is the level of knowledge that I am apparently
dealing with here... I don't like the idea of using two GFCIs on the
same circuit - seems to me that would be a problem for the buyers if
they actually did trip one.

nate

Even though what you already have sounds like it is code compliant, I think
I would just go with my plan of switching to GFCI receptacles at each or the
two locations that were cited. There is nothing that says that you can't
have a GFCI at each location instead of just one GFCI that covers all of the
receptacles on a circuit. Then if one trips, the rest of the circuit will
still be live. I would also change the first one so it is independent and
doesn't protect the downstream receptacles -- each GFCI would just protect
that one receptacle. It just costs more to use all GFCI receptacles rather
than one per circuit.

You know that you do not have to add a ground to those receptacles in order
to be code compliant, but if you change them to GFCI receptacles it will
look like you did something in response to other home inspector's note --
and you won't have to explain or prove that the current outlets are already
protected. Also, the home inspector's job is to note what he finds, and he
can recommend whatever he wants (such as "provide ground"). The same was
true about the door he cited -- he noted what he found and he wrote what he
recommended. But, what he finds and recommends is not necessarily what is
required according to your agreement of sale. Your agreement of sale says
all systems must be in working order, and your electrical system is.
However, it is the home inspection contingency clause that you would have to
read carefully. Usually that clause says something about the buyer only
being able to use that as a basis for getting out of the deal if the item is
a significant defect. Your electrical system does not have a significant
defect and it meets the code as is. But, I would still change the existing
receptacles to GFCI's (with the sticker) just to placate the buyer in the
same way that you went ahead and fixed the door problem.

In article
,
N8N wrote:




Actually the city guy was cool. this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...

I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight

nate

Worrying and hypothesizing about how the buyer will react to the home
inspection report isn't helping you. I wouldn't bother "fixing" the
outlets, just explain the situation to the inspector and buyer.

Home inspectors aren't evil. They operate mostly from the standpoint of
covering their own asses. They report what they find, and it's up to the
buyer to decide what to do with the information. Often the report is
just used as a tool to knock down the sale price a bit.

So the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems that the inspector
found. Tell your agent that you'll counter-offer at $500 and if the
buyer doesn't accept that, you're walking.

On Jun 9, 6:46*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*N8N wrote:

Actually the city guy was cool. *this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. *I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...

I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight

nate

Worrying and hypothesizing about how the buyer will react to the home
inspection report isn't helping you. I wouldn't bother "fixing" the
outlets, just explain the situation to the inspector and buyer.

Home inspectors aren't evil. They operate mostly from the standpoint of
covering their own asses. They report what they find, and it's up to the
buyer to decide what to do with the information. Often the report is
just used as a tool to knock down the sale price a bit.

So the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems that the inspector
found. Tell your agent that you'll counter-offer at $500 and if the
buyer doesn't accept that, you're walking.

It's still not completely clear to me if these are 2 prong or 3
prong. If they are 3 prong then they need to have a proper ground.
Doesn't matter if the wiring is grandfathered in, you can't install 3
prong outlets and not have the correct ground for the third leg. It's
misleading.

Go find some 2 prong outlets or pull grounded wire. If you have an
attic above that's not really that hard to do.

On Jun 9, 7:57*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 9, 6:46*am, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,

*N8N wrote:

Actually the city guy was cool. *this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. *I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...

I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight

nate

Worrying and hypothesizing about how the buyer will react to the home
inspection report isn't helping you. I wouldn't bother "fixing" the
outlets, just explain the situation to the inspector and buyer.

Home inspectors aren't evil. They operate mostly from the standpoint of
covering their own asses. They report what they find, and it's up to the
buyer to decide what to do with the information. Often the report is
just used as a tool to knock down the sale price a bit.

So the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems that the inspector
found. Tell your agent that you'll counter-offer at $500 and if the
buyer doesn't accept that, you're walking.

It's still not completely clear to me if these are 2 prong or 3
prong.

3 prong.

*If they are 3 prong then they need to have a proper ground.

No, they don't. NEC explicitly allows use of 3 prong receps to
replace ungrounded receps w/ no ground available if connected to GFCI.

Doesn't matter if the wiring is grandfathered in, you can't install 3
prong outlets and not have the correct ground for the third leg. *It's
misleading.

Yes you can. You are, however, required to label them "GFCI protected
- No Equipment Ground." The stickers come with the GFCI. No
grandfathering required, this is straight out of 2008 NEC (I have a
copy at my desk.)

Go find some 2 prong outlets

You tried to do that lately?

or pull grounded wire. *If you have an
attic above that's not really that hard to do.

This is the 1st floor of a 2-story house, and walls and ceiling are
plaster. It's not easy at all, otherwise I would have done it.

nate

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 9, 6:46 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

N8N wrote:

Actually the city guy was cool. this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...
I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight
nate
Worrying and hypothesizing about how the buyer will react to the home
inspection report isn't helping you. I wouldn't bother "fixing" the
outlets, just explain the situation to the inspector and buyer.

Home inspectors aren't evil. They operate mostly from the standpoint of
covering their own asses. They report what they find, and it's up to the
buyer to decide what to do with the information. Often the report is
just used as a tool to knock down the sale price a bit.

So the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems that the inspector
found. Tell your agent that you'll counter-offer at $500 and if the
buyer doesn't accept that, you're walking.

It's still not completely clear to me if these are 2 prong or 3
prong. If they are 3 prong then they need to have a proper ground.
Doesn't matter if the wiring is grandfathered in, you can't install 3
prong outlets and not have the correct ground for the third leg. It's
misleading.

Go find some 2 prong outlets or pull grounded wire. If you have an
attic above that's not really that hard to do.


If they are 3-prong they do *not* need a proper ground if they are
GFCI-protected and have the little sticker that says so and a "NO
EQUIPMENT GROUND" sticker.

If the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems, I would counter
with "Your home inspector is an idiot." (show them the electrical code)
"There's nothing to fix. If you don't want to buy the house at this
point, you can sue me to get your earnest money back". Then maybe offer
to replace the 3-prong receptacles with less convenient 2-prongs if
that'll make them feel better.

-Bob

On Jun 9, 8:39*am, zxcvbob wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 9, 6:46 am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*N8N wrote:

Actually the city guy was cool. *this is a privately contracted home
inspector that is working for the prospective buyers. *I guess I can
at least be glad that he *didn't* start scrutinizing the number of
receps (I can think of at least three that would need to be added by
current code, in inconvenient locations) or stair construction...
I guess I could just suck it up and pay an electrician and kiss any
proceeds from the sale buh-bye but I ain't goin' down without a fight
nate
Worrying and hypothesizing about how the buyer will react to the home
inspection report isn't helping you. I wouldn't bother "fixing" the
outlets, just explain the situation to the inspector and buyer.

Home inspectors aren't evil. They operate mostly from the standpoint of
covering their own asses. They report what they find, and it's up to the
buyer to decide what to do with the information. Often the report is
just used as a tool to knock down the sale price a bit.

So the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems that the inspector
found. Tell your agent that you'll counter-offer at $500 and if the
buyer doesn't accept that, you're walking.

It's still not completely clear to me if these are 2 prong or 3
prong. *If they are 3 prong then they need to have a proper ground.
Doesn't matter if the wiring is grandfathered in, you can't install 3
prong outlets and not have the correct ground for the third leg. *It's
misleading.

Go find some 2 prong outlets or pull grounded wire. *If you have an
attic above that's not really that hard to do.

If they are 3-prong they do *not* need a proper ground if they are
GFCI-protected and have the little sticker that says so and a "NO
EQUIPMENT GROUND" sticker.

If the buyer asks for $1500 to correct the problems, I would counter
with "Your home inspector is an idiot." (show them the electrical code)
* "There's nothing to fix. *If you don't want to buy the house at this
point, you can sue me to get your earnest money back". *


If only it were that simple. The deposit is almost always held in
escrow.
And whoever is holding it in escrow, can't just release it unless both
parties agree to it. Depending on exactly what the contract says
about
the inspection contigency, the buyer could be within their contractual
rights. Or it could be unclear. Also, the above approach could make
sense in a hot market, or even a reasonable market, but now?

Also unstated is what the buyer has asked to
be done about this, if anything. All we know is the
home inspector flagged it. Usually, the contract would
say that after the inspection, the buyer has X days to
notify the seller in writing of any issues they want
remedied.

If they have done that, then I would probably call in a
licensed electrician and have them
take a look, then write me a letter stating that the wiring in
question is safe and meets NEC. Send a copy of that
to the buyer, along with responses to any other issues.



Then maybe offer
to replace the 3-prong receptacles with less convenient 2-prongs if
that'll make them feel better.

-Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In article ,
N8N wrote:
....
dealing with here... I don't like the idea of using two GFCIs on the
same circuit - seems to me that would be a problem for the buyers if
they actually did trip one.

nate


Suppose there were two gfcis on the same circuit -- am assuming you
mean in series -- what WOULD be the problem if they actually
did trip one?


---

Sure seems easy to end up in a two-gfcis-in-series situation:
a house that already has *some* gfci protection -- owner decides
to put in a whole-house gfci.

What's he gotta do, remove all those previous ones?

And suppose he doesn't -- what danger?

Thanks,

David