On 4/10/2011 10:48 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Tony Miklos"

I have some big ass mylars, I think they are 4uF @ 200v.


** They won't last long if connected across the AC supply.



.... Phil



I know, I was just about to reply to my post saying that the voltage
rating is VDC.

"Tony Miklos"
Phil Allison wrote:


I have some big ass mylars, I think they are 4uF @ 200v.


** They won't last long if connected across the AC supply.


I know, I was just about to reply to my post saying that the voltage
rating is VDC.


** Film caps rated at 600VDC will generally last a fair while wired across a
120 volt AC supply ( but not with a 240VAC supply ) - but is it far better
to use a purpose designed and agency approved "class X1" or "classX2"
capacitor.




.... Phil

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 12:22:13 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:


"robb"


Yep, My A/C unit blew another transformer. Pictures (and wiring diagram)
he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...7626457562742/

http://www.trane.com/webcache/un/fur...7_04012009.pdf

As you can probably see in the pictures, there is visible charring of the
115V leads going into the transformer, and of course the 115V circuit is
open (again).


** From the damage to the tranny visible in the photos - the primary has
developed an internal short ( due to insulation failure) and since there is
no fuse link in series, the resulting current was high enough to make an
exposed wire leading to the terminals explode

An internal short could develop due to heat alone because of an overload on
the tranny - but this requires a fault to exist on the secondary side which
seems not to be the case.

High voltage spikes on the primary could also cause insulation failure
leading to the damage seen in the pics - lightning does this sort of thing.
So also could back emfs from the blower fan if the is a bad connection in
the AC supply feed.



I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the tranny
from harm.



A capacitor across an AC supply??????????????? As a surge
protector????
Have not heard of that before.

A capacitor across the AC line would appear as a load - and could
form a resonant l/ci tank circuit, which would also appear as a low
resistance -causing high current to flow

There are 2 other POSSIBLE issues here though - - -.

Both are perhaps long shots - but mabee worth investigating.

The transformer primary APPEARS to be saturating.
Primary current on an unloaded transformer CAN, in some cases, excede
full load current. Possibly the transformer requires MORE load on the
secondary than it is getting.

An example is a microwave oven transformer. With no load on either the
high voltage or low voltage secondary, the primary will generally
saturate and overheat. If you remove the high voltage secondary and
add your own windings to make a "custom" transformer, it is not
uncommon for the primary to saturate at no/low loads - overheating the
transformer.

Like I said - a long shot, but possibly worth investigating. adding a
small 24 volt pilot light across the secondary MAY solve that kind of
a problem.

The other POSSIBILITY is a DC bias on the primary, which WILL cause
saturation on 1/2 cycle of the AC. Need a scope to check that
effectively - or something like a 10uf nonpolarized capacitor and a
100K ohm 1/2 watt resistor in series across the primary, with a DC
voltmeter connected across the cap. Make all connections BEFORE
turning on the mains power. You should expect to see readings of +/-
approx 25-35mv across the cap in a normal residential situation.

Lets say you read 275mv DC on the line, and the transformer primary
resistance is 2 ohms.. That will put a DC current of 137.5ma through
the primary - which when added to the normal AC current on the one
half cycle will greatly excede the saturation current of the primary.

A half wave rectified load on the same circuit could put a DC
component across the line.

An AC (nonpolarized) capacitor IN SERIES with the primary would
remove the DC component from the primary winding, but finding a
capacitor that would ballast the primary properly (allow full rated
primary current) while not causing a series resonance (which would
appear as a short circuit across the mains) is not something I would
try to calculate.

..... Phil

"Phil Allison"


High voltage spikes on the primary could also cause insulation failure
leading to the damage seen in the pics - lightning does this sort of
thing.
So also could back emfs from the blower fan if the is a bad connection in
the AC supply feed.

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the tranny
from harm.



A capacitor across an AC supply??????????????? As a surge
protector????
Have not heard of that before.


** Then your ignorance is showing.

The stated reason for the capacitor was in relation to the "blower fan"
inside the same unit as the small tranny.

The event the cap has to deal with is a back emf surge generated by that
fan when the AC supply is suddenly disconnected - for whatever reason.


A capacitor across the AC line would appear as a load

** Draws 45mA continuously.

Yawnnnnnnn....

- and could form a resonant l/ci tank circuit,

** Yawnnnnnn....

(snip absurd drivel)


There are 2 other POSSIBLE issues here though - - -.

Both are perhaps long shots - but mabee worth investigating.

The transformer primary APPEARS to be saturating.


** The primary appears to be EXPLODING !!

You ridiculous ******.


..... Phil

On 4/10/2011 10:46 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny
with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the
tranny from harm.

1 uF sounds a little high.


** No it ain't.

I thought you had simply misspoke and that this was an honest error.

The reactance of a 1uF cap at 60Hz is: 2652 ohms (1/(2*pi*F*C)
Online calculator:
http://www.kusashi.com/reactance-c.p...&stage=results

V^2/R = W

Assuming primary, as why would you put it on the secondary:

120^2 / 2652 = 5.43 W

Does that not seem wrong to you?

** Completely.

Such a cap dissipates no energy at all.

What planet do you come from ??

What a jerk you are. You do realize that is 45mA running through that.

Jeff

On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:24:10 -0400, Congoleum Breckenridge
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 1:37 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Steve wrote:

snip

You might start at the beginning and make sure everything is hooked up
correctly. I mean, once you spring for yet another transformer. For
example, your latest fried transformer has six wires. The schematic
shows the secondary wire colors as blue and red. Given the location of
the blue and red wires on the pic of the transformer you have, that's
not quite intuitive.

And, it may not even be right. So I'd buy a new one, and check some
voltages on the bench. Put 120 into the black and white, and then
measure every other pair to make sure you understand which two wires are
really putting out 24 V.

Obviously, when you go to install it, clip and shrink tube the unused
wires, and make sure that leads are dressed so that they won't short
anywhere.

Then I'd be monitoring the damn thing, preferably with a voltmeter
perhaps on the primary and an ammeter on the secondary.

That 3rd transformer looks like a dual voltage (120/240) input.
If it is, it has two primary windings, and both need to be wire up to work.
Like this: http://www.eleinmec.com/figures/027_02.gif
True - SOME dual voltage primaries are wired that way, and need both
windings connected either in series or parallel to operate.
Others have a center tapped winding - 110 on one half, 220 across the
full winding - and still others have 2 separate windings that operate
independently.

Real easy to find out - even in this case with the 110v primary open.

Connect 110 across the 220 (or 120 across the 240 - let's not get
nit-picky over voltage ratings) or "high voltage" primary and check
the secondary voltage. If he only gets 12 volts it is a totally
separate and independent high voltage primary. If on the other hand he
gets 24 volts, you hit the jackpot and HE screwed up..

This type of "dual primary" circuit is very "polarity" sensitive and
the right colour wires need to be connected together, both in series
and in parallel, or the "magic smoke" comes out very quickly.

Again , like I posted before - READ the instructions.
FOLLOW the instructions, and VERIFY the result.

Part of verifying the result, or erifying an undocummented
transformer, is to check the voltage on ALL winding, used or not, to
fully understand their intended function.

If 110 across the black and white produces 110 across another pair,
that other pair is is a "complimentary" primary and should, in all
likelihood, be connected, phase for phase, across the black/white
primary pair.

"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny
with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous
use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the
tranny from harm.

1 uF sounds a little high.


** No it ain't.

I thought you had simply misspoke and that this was an honest error.

The reactance of a 1uF cap at 60Hz is: 2652 ohms (1/(2*pi*F*C)
Online calculator:
http://www.kusashi.com/reactance-c.p...&stage=results

V^2/R = W

Assuming primary, as why would you put it on the secondary:

120^2 / 2652 = 5.43 W

Does that not seem wrong to you?

** Completely.

Such a cap dissipates no energy at all.

What planet do you come from ??

What a jerk you are. You do realize that is 45mA running through that.


** What sort of know nothing JERK thinks that capacitors dissipate energy
??

Then proceeds to calculate the reactive impedance and treat it the same as
resistance ??

Big bad.

Zero out of ten.


..... Phil

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

NEVER ASSume anything - check the instructions, follow the
instructions, and verify the results. Particularly with today's supply
chain issues you NEVER ASSume something is what it says it is. Quality
control is not anything close to what it was in, say, the seventies,
and evenTHEN, it was not unheard of to have wrong documentation, or
improperly assembled product (but not nearly as common)

Got a propane nozzle for next winter's icy steps from HF that came with
instructions for assembling a pick axe hammer. Got an inspection camera,
too, that was short the mini-plug to RCA plug cable to allow the video to be
sent to a large TV or a recorder. Seeing that it was a video only tool, I
assumed it would take a two conductor cable. Tried a video only cable, no
joy. Tried a video/1 channel audio cable, still no joy. Tried a video and
*stereo* cable, STILL no joy. Called up and ordered the correct cable,
although by this time I was suspicious that the cable was deliberately
excluded because the function didn't work. Then, sitting at my desk,
looking at the picture on the manual, the picture was clear enough to reveal
it was a video/stereo audio cable. Then I remembered that they've always
been somewhat less than completely interchangeable, so I had several sets
lying around. The one for my Sony Handicam didn't work but the cable from a
portable LCD cable did! My assumption was a video only device would use a
video only cable. I still think it was a good one, but obviously not in
this case.

As for quality control, I believe it was Micro$oft who began the outrageous
procedure of charging people 30 bucks to get a preview (aka doing the final
bug hunt in the real world) of Win98 when it first arrived. IIRC, you
didn't even get a discount on the release version for being a beta tester.
That's when it seems that QC finally fell off the face of the earth.

--
Bobby G.

On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 20:33:16 -0700 (PDT), Mark
wrote:

On Apr 9, 10:24Â*pm, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:
On 4/9/2011 1:37 AM, Smitty Two wrote:



In ,
Â* Steve Â*wrote:

snip

You might start at the beginning and make sure everything is hooked up
correctly. I mean, once you spring for yet another transformer. For
example, your latest fried transformer has six wires. The schematic
shows the secondary wire colors as blue and red. Given the location of
the blue and red wires on the pic of the transformer you have, that's
not quite intuitive.

And, it may not even be right. So I'd buy a new one, and check some
voltages on the bench. Put 120 into the black and white, and then
measure every other pair to make sure you understand which two wires are
really putting out 24 V.

Obviously, when you go to install it, clip and shrink tube the unused
wires, and make sure that leads are dressed so that they won't short
anywhere.

Then I'd be monitoring the damn thing, preferably with a voltmeter
perhaps on the primary and an ammeter on the secondary.

That 3rd transformer looks like a dual voltage (120/240) input.
If it is, it has two primary windings, and both need to be wire up to work.
Like this:http://www.eleinmec.com/figures/027_02.gif

To OP
this is a long shot but...
I noticed on the Trane wiring diagram that you posted that the
connections for the IGNITION circuit are shown to be near to the
connections for the primary of the transformer.

If there is some insulation problem on the ignition wires and the VERY
high voltage from the ignition circuit is sparking or jumping over to
the transformer primary circuit, this could cause the symptoms you are
seeing.


Only one almost obvious flaw with that arguement - the ignition is NOT
used when the system is running the "cool" cycle - which is what the
OP says was running when the second transformer popped.

Also, the secondary resistance will be low enough, and the impedence
of the ignitor (assuming it is spark ignited, and not hot surface)
high enough, that the voltage across the primary would most likely be
clamped to a reasonable level - and if not the electronics on the
control board would be damaged, long before the voltage induced in the
primary would get high enough to damage the windings or the insulation
on them.

If, on the other hand, it is a hot surface ignitor, they run on line
voltage (on any I've seen anyway) and a short as you envision would
ALMOST DEFINITELY fry the control board.

Make sure the wires that are part of the ignition circuit are not even
close to the anything else. and inspect them (with the power off) for
any sigh of cracks or other faults. These have very high voltage
like in a car spark plug and can jump several inches if there is an
insulation problem. And the problem would be intermittent. The
transformer primary voltage would look perfect except when the high
voltage spark jumps over to it and this could easily damage the
insulation on the transformer which is not designed for very high
voltages.

If you are an electrical novice, you may want to think about calling
in for some help at this point.

Mark

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 00:18:44 -0400, Jeff Thies
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 9:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 19:22:57 -0400, Jeff
wrote:



But first do as I suggested in another thread,look carefully for
anything burnt and check the polarity of the line. Make sure the neutral
is neutral. You can measure from the ground prong. See the note in the
schematic. I'm not so sure this didn't arc to the transformer shell,
from looking at the pic. You may wish to measure voltage (AC) from the
transformer shell to a guaranteed neutral.

It's AC so there is no polarity. It's single output, non grounded, so
it doesnt matter which direction either the primary or secondary are
connected. Good to have the white on neutral and the bloack on live,
but it will have NO EFFECT on the operation. - or the life of the
transformer.


Except that the schematic has a note at the top that says:

Important
Integrated Control is polarity sensitive.
Hot leg of 120V power supply must be connected to the black power lead...

Whats with that?


I'm sure I am as baffled by that as you are. AC in not "polarity
sensitive" and as long as neither side of the primary or secondary is
grounded the control should not know which way the primary (or
secondary) is connected..

I would SUSPECT, but do not know for sure, that all the relays etc are
DC coils and all the circuitry on the control board is running on DC
provided by a full wave rectifier bridge on the circuit board., and
all the sensors also run on DC (and quite possibly - even likely - on
5 vdc, not 24)

Otherwise I would fully agree with you.

It seems to me there is a flaw in the integrated control and whereas
I don't see how this could be a problem, it is easy enough to scratch
off the list. Troubleshooting is little more than eliminating possibilities.

It would not surprise me there is a problem with the board. Trane has
"upgraded" the board from a white-rogers unit with their part number
CNT0377 to a new replacement kit, part number cnt05122 - which might
lead one to ask the question "WHY".


This can be pretty well determined by installing the fuse I (and
others) have recommended several times in the past.. If it blows the
1.5 amp fast blow fuse it is safe to say there MAY be a board problem
(or a shorted relaycoil, etc).




Jeff

On 4/10/2011 9:43 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/10/2011 7:30 PM spake thus:

On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 18:33:34 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 6:28 PM spake thus:

He needs to go by the wiring diagram that came with the
transformer, and VERIFY IT WITH A VOLTMETER.

Which he has already done, if you'd bothered to read all his
postings.

I read them. I understood them. I was just replying to the notion that
he had connected the transformer wrong, based on wire colours.

NEVER ASSume anything - check the instructions, follow the
instructions, and verify the results. Particularly with today's supply
chain issues you NEVER ASSume something is what it says it is.

True that.

One thing nobody's yet explained about this whole puzzle is why there's
an extra set of leads from the transformer (as shown in the O.P.'s
pictures) that aren't being used. What's that all about?



The orange and red leads are to be used when you have 208 or 240vac.
On the Honeywell transformers the black is the common and black to
white=120vac, black to red=208vac and black to orange=240vac supply.
The transformer was manufactured to be used on single or three phase
systems and you are more likely to wind up with 208vac on a three phase
system. The 32volt difference between 208 and 240 could adversely affect
your secondary control voltage if you use the wrong tap.
Oh yea, I for got to mention that on an electric furnace your supply
voltage could be 240vac instead of the 120vac for a gas furnace.

TDD

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:30:50 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Actualy, no, you don't have to. I don't think you're
comptetent to answer this question. At work, I regularly
measure amperage without splicing into the circuit. You
should stick to things you know.
Measuring amperage without breaking into the circuit requires either
a current transformer or an "amp clamp" - which is either a current
transformer or a hall effect device (generally) depending on whether
it is AC or DC..

With DC there are also "magnetic" poximity amp meters that just sit
against or over the conductor. - and of course there is always the
"shunt" - which is technically part of the "ammeter" in series with
the load and the "meter" is a voltmeter reading the voltage drop
across the "shunt" which is just a very low resistance.

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 19:51:34 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 9:08 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:37:10 -0700, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 2:21 PM Steve Turner spake thus:

On 4/9/2011 3:43 PM, Smarty wrote:

On 4/8/2011 8:52 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

A continuation of the "Why does the 115V-24V transformer keep
blowing on my Trane XB80?" discussion I started on 04/02/2011.

Yep, My A/C unit blew another transformer. Pictures (and wiring
diagram) he

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboye...7626457562742/

Trane's manual for the unit is here (for perhaps better viewing
of the wiring diagrams that I also copied to my above flickr site
as jpg images):

http://www.trane.com/webcache/un/fur...7_04012009.pdf

As you can probably see in the pictures, there is visible charring of the
115V leads going into the transformer, and of course the 115V circuit is open
(again). If you didn't see my first thread, this is the third transformer the
unit has blown. In the previous discussion, it was discussed that perhaps the
first one just blew because of old age (6 years), and the second blew because
it wasn't a proper replacement (poor quality, made in China, etc.). This
third unit is most certainly a proper replacement, and it's most certainly
indicative of a real problem I have somewhere else in the unit. I didn't see
any such charring on the previous two units, at least not like this.

I never got a real chance to test out the system after installing this third
transformer. We had cool weather for several days, and I never tried to force
the system to come on so I could monitor it; that was probably a mistake.
Unfortunately, I was also absent from the premises during the extended times
when the unit was most likely operational, so that didn't help either.
However, my family tells me that it WAS working and cooling the house rather
nicely, for at least a day, perhaps two. I'm getting 115V in all the right
places, so it doesn't look like an over-voltage condition to me. Perhaps it's
an overheating condition? It looks to me like the only real load on this
circuit is the blower motor; could the motor be causing this? The blower
spins freely when I turn it by hand. Start capacitor on the motor maybe?
Relay on the control board perhaps?

If you are not comfortable with taking current measurements, or do not have an
ammeter, or do not wish to sit there waiting for some unusual condition which
is drawing too much current, you could temporarily install an in-line fuse
holder and automotive cartridge fuse rated at or above the secondary side
amperage which the transformer is rated. With this fuse installed on the
secondary side, in series with the load, you could then determine if the load
is indeed drawing too much current from the secondary and burning out the
transformer, versus primary side excess voltage being the problem.

A rough guess would be that the contactor coil should maybe be drawing about a
quarter to a half an amp of current at 24V. The transformer secondary should
not need to source a lot more than that amount of current to provide adequate
power to the coil of the contactor.

Fuses are a lot cheaper than transformers......

There may be an intermittent short in the wiring to the coil, a short in the
coil itself, a breakdown of the coil insulation allowing a short to ground when
the coil heats up or cools or vibrates, etc.

Yes Smarty, I would very much like to try this approach because I don't want to
zap any more transformers. Lots of people have suggested it, but there appear
to be more types of fuses than there are insects, and I have no idea what
*exact* type to look for.

Well, it's not exactly rocket science. And you can't hurt anything,
unless you get a fuse that's too big (i.e., rated at too many amps).

First thing you gotta figure out is how much current your transformer is
rated at. Since your wiring diagrams don't say, we have to take an
educated guess.

The only thing connected to the transformer is a thingamajig called the
"integrated furnace control" (IFC). Even without seeing this thing, I
can guess with confidence that it's an electronic circuit board which
controls the operation of the furnace. Since it undoubtedly does so
through relays (either mechanical or electronic), it's safe to assume
that it doesn't draw much current.

Let's say 1 amp to start. We could be wrong, but that's a good starting
point. So what we need is a fuse rated at *at least* 24 volts (could be
much more, up to 120 or 240 volts), and *exactly* 1 amp. To be on the
safe side, let's get a "fast blow" fuse. Hey, fuses are cheaper than
transformers, right?

So install such a fuse, run the unit and see what happens.

If the fuse blows right away, it's probably too small, so use the next
bigger fuse; let's say 1.5 A.

We don't need to guess here.
The transformer has a rating. NEVER fuse above the transformer rating.
If the transformer is a 40va 24 volt transformer the MAXIMUM fuse
rating is 40/24=1.66 amps - so a 1.5 amp fuse will protect the
transformer - a 2 amp fuse will NOT.

And on the primary we have a max of .332 amps, I'd say a 1/4amp slow
blow would work.
As noted before, correct.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:25:02 +1000, "Phil Allison"
wrote:



"Phil Allison"


High voltage spikes on the primary could also cause insulation failure
leading to the damage seen in the pics - lightning does this sort of
thing.
So also could back emfs from the blower fan if the is a bad connection in
the AC supply feed.

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the tranny
from harm.



A capacitor across an AC supply??????????????? As a surge
protector????
Have not heard of that before.


** Then your ignorance is showing.

The stated reason for the capacitor was in relation to the "blower fan"
inside the same unit as the small tranny.

The event the cap has to deal with is a back emf surge generated by that
fan when the AC supply is suddenly disconnected - for whatever reason.


A capacitor across the AC line would appear as a load

** Draws 45mA continuously.

Yawnnnnnnn....

- and could form a resonant l/ci tank circuit,

** Yawnnnnnn....

(snip absurd drivel)


There are 2 other POSSIBLE issues here though - - -.

Both are perhaps long shots - but mabee worth investigating.

The transformer primary APPEARS to be saturating.


** The primary appears to be EXPLODING !!

You ridiculous ******.


.... Phil

Phil - your mamma should wash your mouth out with soap.
I SAID the other two scenarios were long shots - but so is everything
else that has been suggested. The windings of the trasnformer do not
APPEAR to be overheated - looks like just blackened at the connections
between the winding and the connecting wires.

It is definitely a strange failure - and I don't think it has been
properly analyzed to determine exactly what/where the problem is.
As Arthur Conan Doyle said, "after you have eliminated all the
possibilities, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the
truth"

** The primary appears to be EXPLODING !!

You ridiculous ******.

Phil - your mamma should wash your mouth out with soap.


** You need to get your hands off of it.


I SAID the other two scenarios were long shots ..

** And I said they were ridiculous drivel.

- but so is everything else that has been suggested.

** Your opinion is based on your ignorance only.

The windings of the trasnformer do not
APPEAR to be overheated - looks like just blackened at the connections
between the winding and the connecting wires.


** See the vaporised metal coating deposited on the plastic cover next to
the tranny?

That is a damn EXPLOSION !!

It happened very suddenly and made a loud bang too.

I said:

" High voltage spikes on the primary could also cause insulation failure
leading to the damage seen in the pics - lightning does this sort of thing.
So also could back emfs from the blower fan if the is a bad connection in
the AC supply feed."

If the insulation on the enamel wire of the primary is punctured by a HIGH
VOLTAGE SPIKE, effectively shorting out most of the primary - then the
120 AC supply ( no fuse exists remember ) will easily turn the two exposed
wire ends into metal vapour !!!

Cos they just became the fuses.

It just so happens that many small transformers made in China, India & Sri
Lanka etc are very prone to this sort of failure - due to bad manufacturing
practices.



..... Phil

What's not to like? I didn't notice, cause you're always so
serious.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2011 9:19 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
You want to cancell the group hug, then?


Oh, I get it now! You didn't notice I was being sarcastic!

What is this "old light bulb trick"?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ron D." wrote in message
...
Put 3A automotive fuse on secondary. Use light bulb trick
to find
shorts. Two 12 V light bulbs in series that draw no more
than 40 VA.

"Stormin Mormon"

What is this "old light bulb trick"?


** You need to ask Agent 86 that one....




.... Phil

On 4/11/2011 12:59 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 00:18:44 -0400, Jeff
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 9:41 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 19:22:57 -0400, Jeff
wrote:



But first do as I suggested in another thread,look carefully for
anything burnt and check the polarity of the line. Make sure the neutral
is neutral. You can measure from the ground prong. See the note in the
schematic. I'm not so sure this didn't arc to the transformer shell,
from looking at the pic. You may wish to measure voltage (AC) from the
transformer shell to a guaranteed neutral.

It's AC so there is no polarity. It's single output, non grounded, so
it doesnt matter which direction either the primary or secondary are
connected. Good to have the white on neutral and the bloack on live,
but it will have NO EFFECT on the operation. - or the life of the
transformer.


Except that the schematic has a note at the top that says:

Important
Integrated Control is polarity sensitive.
Hot leg of 120V power supply must be connected to the black power lead...

Whats with that?


I'm sure I am as baffled by that as you are. AC in not "polarity
sensitive" and as long as neither side of the primary or secondary is
grounded the control should not know which way the primary (or
secondary) is connected..

I have a guess, maybe the board has to be in sync with another power
source. Would reversed polarity make it 180º out of sync?

On 4/11/2011 8:05 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
What's not to like? I didn't notice, cause you're always so
serious.


Now you get it!

On 4/10/2011 11:29 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny
with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous
use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the
tranny from harm.

1 uF sounds a little high.


** No it ain't.

I thought you had simply misspoke and that this was an honest error.

The reactance of a 1uF cap at 60Hz is: 2652 ohms (1/(2*pi*F*C)
Online calculator:
http://www.kusashi.com/reactance-c.p...&stage=results

V^2/R = W

Assuming primary, as why would you put it on the secondary:

120^2 / 2652 = 5.43 W

Does that not seem wrong to you?

** Completely.

Such a cap dissipates no energy at all.

What planet do you come from ??

What a jerk you are. You do realize that is 45mA running through that.


** What sort of know nothing JERK thinks that capacitors dissipate energy
??

It doesn't have to dissipate energy to explode. That is a lot of joules.

Then proceeds to calculate the reactive impedance and treat it the same as
resistance ??

Big bad.

So I left out the PF, so what?

Zero out of ten.

My first encounter with you, but no doubt others have had the same
reaction. Telling an inexperienced OP to put in a 1mF cap without any
specifics, and that for the dubious goal of "suppressing" the back EMF
of a motor running off the line has a disconnect from reality.
Transformers are generally much hardier devices than the solid state
components they feed.

Say what you want. You've already made your mark and I really don't
care what you add. I've taken away what I need to know about yourself,
and the OP is off somewhere else.

Happy now?

Jeff


.... Phil

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every post
is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him, you'll
get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take it
personally.

On 4/11/2011 11:25 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Jeff wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every post
is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him, you'll
get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take it
personally.

Thanks. That's about what I surmised. A North American version of Rod
Speed.

Some people I'll read consistently, I'll put him in the other group.

Jeff

On 4/11/2011 6:27 AM Tony Miklos spake thus:

On 4/11/2011 12:59 AM, wrote:

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 00:18:44 -0400, Jeff
wrote:

On 4/9/2011 9:41 PM, wrote:

On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 19:22:57 -0400, Jeff
wrote:

But first do as I suggested in another thread,look carefully
for anything burnt and check the polarity of the line. Make
sure the neutral is neutral. You can measure from the ground
prong. See the note in the schematic. I'm not so sure this
didn't arc to the transformer shell, from looking at the pic.
You may wish to measure voltage (AC) from the transformer
shell to a guaranteed neutral.

It's AC so there is no polarity. It's single output, non
grounded, so it doesnt matter which direction either the
primary or secondary are connected. Good to have the white on
neutral and the bloack on live, but it will have NO EFFECT on
the operation. - or the life of the transformer.


Except that the schematic has a note at the top that says:

Important
Integrated Control is polarity sensitive. Hot leg of 120V power
supply must be connected to the black power lead...

Whats with that?

I'm sure I am as baffled by that as you are. AC in not "polarity
sensitive" and as long as neither side of the primary or secondary
is grounded the control should not know which way the primary (or
secondary) is connected..

I have a guess, maybe the board has to be in sync with another power
source. Would reversed polarity make it 180º out of sync?

Now you're *really* grasping at straws ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every post
is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him, you'll
get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take it
personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together. And it is possible to
engage him in serious dialog on electronic topics, as shown by recent
threads in s.e.r. So while he can be abusive, you ought to listen to his
technical advice, which is golden.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every
post is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him,
you'll get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take
it personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together.

That's debatable. Phil is a troll with decent knowledge in electronics.
He sets traps like a spider spins a web then comes back to pounce on
those in the trap. I think Phil gets a lot of his knowledge on Google.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

On 4/11/2011 1:46 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In ,
Jeff wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every
post is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him,
you'll get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take
it personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together.

That's debatable. Phil is a troll with decent knowledge in electronics.
He sets traps like a spider spins a web then comes back to pounce on
those in the trap. I think Phil gets a lot of his knowledge on Google.


Google? Is that some new kind of mind altering drug? ^_^

TDD

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:08:47 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 4/11/2011 1:46 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In ,
Jeff wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about
Phil. Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone
a ****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every
post is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him,
you'll get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't
take it personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together.

That's debatable. Phil is a troll with decent knowledge in electronics.
He sets traps like a spider spins a web then comes back to pounce on
those in the trap. I think Phil gets a lot of his knowledge on Google.


Google? Is that some new kind of mind altering drug? ^_^

TDD

Sometimes it seems that's the case.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

On 4/11/2011 2:46 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In ,
Jeff wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.
Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every
post is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him,
you'll get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't take
it personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together.

That's debatable. Phil is a troll

he does have the outward symptoms.

with decent knowledge in electronics.
He sets traps like a spider spins a web then comes back to pounce on
those in the trap.

I have no time for playing games. Anyone sending me down that path is
not worth the time consumed.

I think he is more than a little looney about the whole 1mF cap
business. Not that I'm an expert on appliances but there are plenty of
good reasons why such a thing is not used in other commercial and home
electronics. I've been inside thousands of different line driven
electronics and I've never seen anyone reflect his thinking. It makes me
doubt his practical background, and that is an understatement.


I think Phil gets a lot of his knowledge on Google.

Not a clue on that. I'll leave him in your group where he can foster
as much contempt as he desires.

Jeff

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:28:09 -0400, Jeff Thies wrote:

On 4/11/2011 2:46 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:30:33 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 4/11/2011 8:25 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In ,
Jeff wrote:

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about
Phil. Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone
a ****wit, and worse, all the time. Virtually every sentence of every
post is chock full of derision. If you choose to dialogue with him,
you'll get great heaping portions of his demented abuse. So don't
take it personally.

That's true, and it's also true that he often acts--seriously, no
joke--like he's off his meds.

But it's also true that he knows more about electronics than probably
all the "experts" here (a.h.r.) put together.

That's debatable. Phil is a troll

he does have the outward symptoms.

with decent knowledge in electronics.
He sets traps like a spider spins a web then comes back to pounce on
those in the trap.

I have no time for playing games. Anyone sending me down that path is
not worth the time consumed.

I think he is more than a little looney about the whole 1mF cap
business. Not that I'm an expert on appliances but there are plenty of
good reasons why such a thing is not used in other commercial and home
electronics. I've been inside thousands of different line driven
electronics and I've never seen anyone reflect his thinking. It makes me
doubt his practical background, and that is an understatement.


I think Phil gets a lot of his knowledge on Google.

Not a clue on that. I'll leave him in your group where he can foster
as much contempt as he desires.


The sad part is Phil usually is right with things involving pro-audio
gear. I would take his word hands down on guitar and power amps. But you
cannot know everything about any kind of electronic device like he would
like others to believe he does. And why he traps people with one decent
reply then comes back scathing is beyond me.




--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

Stormin Mormon wrote:
What is this "old light bulb trick"?


Wire a 25W - 75W incandescent light bulb in series with the load
(transformer primary). If the light is bright then there is a short in
either the primary or secondary side output. If it is bright for a
second then dims right down (power supply caps charging up) then there
is no serious short.

Picture of one such setup:

http://www.flippers.com/images/Overc...stJigFused.JPG

Note I recommend an isolation transformer. The fuse holder is there so
the light can act as an indicator that the fuse has blown, or remove the
fuse for "the light bulb test/trick".

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison

** What sort of know nothing JERK thinks that capacitors dissipate
energy
??

Then proceeds to calculate the reactive impedance and treat it the same
as
resistance ??

Big bad.

Zero out of ten.


** Jeff - you are much worse than merely a know nothing idiot.

You are one colossally narcissistic fool and a public menace.

God knows what it is you DO know something about - but certainly
electricity and electronics are not among them.

**** off and stop TROLLING .


..... Phil

"Smitty ****ty Two"

Jeff Thies

My first encounter with you

Jeff, since you don't hang out on s.e.r., I'll clue you in about Phil.


**As if you have the metal capacity for any such thing.

Regardless of what he knows or doesn't know, he calls everyone a
****wit, and worse, all the time.

** Blatant lies.

I only call ****wits ****wits.

Shame is, the whole of usenet has been taken over by them.


..... Phil

"Jeff Thies is a Moron "

** **** off - you ****wit ****** !!!


I think he is more than a little looney about the whole 1mF cap business.

** FFS IMBECILE -

I suggested a capacitor of " 1uF rated for continuous use across the AC
supply"

Standard practice with inductive loads for decades.


Not that I'm an expert on appliances ...


** Only thing a fool like YOU is expert on is puling your tiny cock in
public.


**** OFF - DAMN TROLL !!

I'm slowly learning at the feet of the master.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...
On 4/11/2011 8:05 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
What's not to like? I didn't notice, cause you're always
so
serious.


Now you get it!

"Don Klipstein"

Then again, I doubt a voltage spike lasting long enough to burn out a
transformer will be absorbed by a 1 uF cap across a 120V AC line.


** You missed the point entirely.

A voltage spike ( or a series of them) can easily cause insulation failure
in the enamel winding wire of the primary - then the energy to explode the
lead in and lead out wires comes from the 120 volt AC supply.



..... Phil

OK, that makes a bit of sense. Seems like a bit of bother
for what you can track down, with a VOM and some common
sense.

Reminds me of the time I got asked to change a thermostat.
New one needs common, old one did not. After several trips
to the roof, I got me some common sense. Still, it was a
rather long and tiring job. The first level of roof was
maybe 16 feet, and there was about a 4 foot rise to the next
level, so I ended up buying two ladders for that job. Worked
out, I've used both ladders several times since then.
Learned a lot, too.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"John Robertson" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
What is this "old light bulb trick"?


Wire a 25W - 75W incandescent light bulb in series with the
load
(transformer primary). If the light is bright then there is
a short in
either the primary or secondary side output. If it is bright
for a
second then dims right down (power supply caps charging up)
then there
is no serious short.

Picture of one such setup:

http://www.flippers.com/images/Overc...stJigFused.JPG

Note I recommend an isolation transformer. The fuse holder
is there so
the light can act as an indicator that the fuse has blown,
or remove the
fuse for "the light bulb test/trick".

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the
newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T
3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video
Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

In article , Phil Allison wrote:

"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny
with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the
tranny from harm.

1 uF sounds a little high.

** No it ain't.

I thought you had simply misspoke and that this was an honest error.

The reactance of a 1uF cap at 60Hz is: 2652 ohms (1/(2*pi*F*C)
Online calculator:
http://www.kusashi.com/reactance-c.p...&stage=results

V^2/R = W

Assuming primary, as why would you put it on the secondary:

120^2 / 2652 = 5.43 W

Does that not seem wrong to you?

** Completely.

Such a cap dissipates no energy at all.

What planet do you come from ??

With AC, volts times amps is not necessarily watts.

If determination of volts and amps are both "true RMS", (non-"true RMS"
meters are usually OK for line voltage and for current through a cap
across an AC line),

then volts times amps is "volt-amps". Ratio of power consumption (in
watts) to VA is power factor. Capacitors have very low, ideally zero,
power factor.

If not then go buy a 200V non polarized 1uF cap. It is no easy chore.

** 1uF caps for use across the AC supply are cheap and plentiful.

Digi-Key has 3 easy enough to find 1uF ones with X1 or X2 rating, all
$3-plus plus shipping with minimum order requirement to avoid a surcharge.

Among those 3, my favorite is FC233820105, which is by Vishay/BC
Components. Its datasheet refers to 2 UL standards and 2 CSA ones, and has
a link to an application note making a claim that the referenced UL ones are
sufficient for achieving the "UL Recognized" ("backwards UR") mark.

Typical examples are metallised polypropylene " class X2 " types and sell
for $1 or $2 each.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=399-5466-ND

That one needed me to delve into its datasheet to see that it claims to
meet the two relevant UL standards and that it has X2 rating. Its AC
voltage rating is 275 volts. 91 cents each plus shipping, with a minimum
order requirement to avoid a surcharge.

Any of the 4 capacitors above (2 mentioned specifically) look good, in
the unlikely event what is needed is a capacitor across the line.

What planet do you come from ??

--
- Don Klipstein )

"Don Klipstein"



Any of the 4 capacitors above (2 mentioned specifically) look good, in
the unlikely event what is needed is a capacitor across the line.


** You are one smug, ****ing PITA aren't you ?



..... Phil

In article , Jeff Thies wrote:
On 4/10/2011 11:29 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:
"Jeff Thies"
Phil Allison wrote:

I suggest you provide the next replacement for that vulnerable tranny
with
some "protection" - firstly an in-line fuse of say 1/4 amp AND a
capacitor wired across the primary of say 1uF rated for continuous
use
across the AC supply.

If there is an overload on the tranny, the fuse will blow.

The 1uF capacitor should suppress spike voltages enough to save the
tranny from harm.

1 uF sounds a little high.


** No it ain't.

I thought you had simply misspoke and that this was an honest error.

The reactance of a 1uF cap at 60Hz is: 2652 ohms (1/(2*pi*F*C)
Online calculator:
http://www.kusashi.com/reactance-c.p...&stage=results

V^2/R = W

Assuming primary, as why would you put it on the secondary:

120^2 / 2652 = 5.43 W

Does that not seem wrong to you?

** Completely.

Such a cap dissipates no energy at all.

What planet do you come from ??

What a jerk you are. You do realize that is 45mA running through that.


** What sort of know nothing JERK thinks that capacitors dissipate energy
??

It doesn't have to dissipate energy to explode. That is a lot of joules.

Then proceeds to calculate the reactive impedance and treat it the same as
resistance ??

Big bad.

So I left out the PF, so what?

Zero out of ten.

PF of a capacitor suitable to connect across an AC line is usually less
than .01.

My first encounter with you, but no doubt others have had the same
reaction.
Make that longish story shorter

Phil Allison is well known in sci.electronics.design to be quick to
get brash, even calling people names and sometimes a little worse. If
only he would avoid that, a lot more people would think a lot more highly
of him than they do now, since he does fairly well know what he is talking
about when it's electrical.
--
- Don Klipstein )