On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
:: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
::
::: In
::: ,
::: Bob typed:
:::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco
:::: wrote:
::::: .
::::: Hibernation, according to MS:
::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as
::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off
::::: computer, I suppose.
:::::
::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st.
::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation,
::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now].
:::::
::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off,
::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored
::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least
::::: with Windows 7].
:::::
::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected]
::::: with the Suppressor off.
:::::
::::: thanks
::::: mark
::::
:::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC.
::::
::::
:::
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...sked-questions
:::
::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers?
::: All I see is:
::
:: That's my question too.
::: "
::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily
::: for laptops. While
::
:: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have
:: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go
:: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that
:: were running. It picks up just where you left off.
::
:: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or
:: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going
:: about 4 days lately.
::
:: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and
:: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need
:: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other
:: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run
:: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still
:: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days,
:: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no
:: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to
:: the regular speed.
::
:: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp,
:: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from
:: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the
:: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I
:: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4
:: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that
:: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember
:: all of them even with a cold start)
::
:: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars
:: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had
:: was about 10 years old.
::
::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a
::: small amount of power,
::
:: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the
:: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down,
:: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would
:: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a
:: bat file that was running.
::
::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your
::: hard disk,
::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving
::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of
::: power.
::
:: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the
:: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right,
:: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used
:: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables
:: wake from.
::
::: On a laptop, use hibernation
::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an
::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge
::: the battery during that time.
:::
::: "
:::
::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you
::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from
::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC
::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those
::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC
::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation.
::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored
::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory
::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power
::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen;
::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and
::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard
::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when
::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that
::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before
::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space
::: allocated to Hibernate too.
::
:: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was,
:: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I
:: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it
:: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive
:: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe
:: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?)
:::
:::
::: HTH,
:::
:::
:::
::: Twayne`

Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all
power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were
working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is
no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& the
like.
Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it
first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?

HTH,

Twayne`

If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. At the very least the power supply
is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on.

But all that is true after Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off,
also, isn't it? And that's known as Off.

The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output
to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it
might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was
running.

Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the
mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary
contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off,
except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn
it back on again.

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:06:42 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco polo wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box

I don't disagree with you, but for 50 to 75, you get an MOV kind that
you calleed almost worthless. The ones I've seen do have a LED that
stops being lit when the protector has been zapped.

Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

(if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one).

And you can keep your other hand off the bus bar.

Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

On Mar 12, 9:51*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos





wrote:
On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote:
Innews *typed:
:: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne"
*wrote:
::
::: In
,
::: Bob *typed:
:::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco
:::: wrote:
::::: .
::::: Hibernation, according to MS:
::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as
::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off
::::: computer, I suppose.
:::::
::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st.
::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation,
::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now].
:::::
::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off,
::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored
::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least
::::: with Windows 7].
:::::
::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected]
::::: with the Suppressor off.
:::::
::::: thanks
::::: mark
::::
:::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC.
::::
::::
:::
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...ibernation-fre....
:::
::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers?
::: All I see is:
::
:: That's my question too.
::: "
::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily
::: for laptops. While
::
:: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. *If you have
:: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go
:: start them again. *It even restarts cmd .bat files that
:: were running. *It picks up just where you left off.
::
:: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or
:: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going
:: about 4 days lately.
::
:: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and
:: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need
:: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other
:: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run
:: out of RAM, you'll have to close. *Some programs still
:: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days,
:: you can run out. *Or if the computer slows down for no
:: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to
:: the regular speed.
::
:: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp,
:: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from
:: Standby. *Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the
:: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I
:: have to restart all the programs. *(And the 10 year old, 4
:: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that
:: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember
:: all of them even with a cold start)
::
:: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars
:: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had
:: was about 10 years old.
::
::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a
::: small amount of power,
::
:: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the
:: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down,
:: everything that was in memory is forgotten. * This would
:: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. * Or a
:: bat file that was running.
::
::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your
::: hard disk,
::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving
::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of
::: power.
::
:: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the
:: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right,
:: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used
:: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables
:: wake from.
::
::: On a laptop, use hibernation
::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an
::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge
::: the battery during that time.
:::
::: "
:::
::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you
::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from
::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC
::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those
::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC
::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation.
::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored
::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory
::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power
::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen;
::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and
::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard
::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when
::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that
::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before
::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space
::: allocated to Hibernate too.
::
:: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was,
:: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. *I
:: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it
:: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive
:: and back. * Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe
:: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?)
:::
:::
::: HTH,
:::
:::
:::
::: Twayne`

Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all
power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were
working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is
no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& *the
like.
* * Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it
first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?

HTH,

Twayne`

If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. *At the very least the power supply
is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on.

But all that is true after *Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off,
also, isn't it? *And that's known as Off.

The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output
to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it
might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was
running.

When the PC is turned off, power to the CPU and RAM are gone and
so is any contents.



Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the
mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary
contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off,
except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn
it back on again.

Not sure if that's the only reason for seperating the on/off button
from
directly operating the line switch, but it's one obvious reason.
Another is that when you push the power button to turn it off, it
gives
the system time to perform a very quick but orderly shutdown that is
safer in terms of corrupting things than the instant power
interruption.




The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Mar 12, 6:06*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco polo wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground..
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

Exactly what would that "sophisticated electronics" be? AFAIK, most
surge
protectors use MOVs because they are the device best suited to handle
surges.



So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost
hundreds
of dollars that use MOVs.




An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And guess what they use? MOVs

On Mar 12, 8:43*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, *wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco *wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through..

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. *A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

On Mar 13, 7:39*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, * *wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, * *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco * *wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. *A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear..
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Any idea what this would cost?

On Mar 11, 1:48*pm, marco polo wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off.
That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Turning them off doesn't do much for lightning/surge suppression if
anything. Ive never lost a 'puter to lightning but I have lost a TV
and several piece of test equipment I left plugged into my work
bench..... They were turned off .
As an electronics repairman over the years I have repaired many
lightning damaged devices where all I had to do was replace the MOV.
While I cant say with absolute certainty that this protected the
device as I also have may crispy fried circuit s that had lightning
protection I would say that the evidence I have seen leans in that
direction.

Jimmie

On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far.

On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote:
In news typed:
:: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:
::
::: In
::: ,
::: Bob typed:
:::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco
:::: wrote:
::::: .
::::: Hibernation, according to MS:
::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as
::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off
::::: computer, I suppose.
:::::
::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st.
::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation,
::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now].
:::::
::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off,
::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored
::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least
::::: with Windows 7].
:::::
::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected]
::::: with the Suppressor off.
:::::
::::: thanks
::::: mark
::::
:::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC.
::::
::::
:::
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...sked-questions
:::
::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers?
::: All I see is:
::
:: That's my question too.
::: "
::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily
::: for laptops. While
::
:: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have
:: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go
:: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that
:: were running. It picks up just where you left off.
::
:: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or
:: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going
:: about 4 days lately.
::
:: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and
:: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need
:: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other
:: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run
:: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still
:: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days,
:: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no
:: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to
:: the regular speed.
::
:: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp,
:: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from
:: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the
:: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I
:: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4
:: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that
:: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember
:: all of them even with a cold start)
::
:: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars
:: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had
:: was about 10 years old.
::
::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a
::: small amount of power,
::
:: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the
:: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down,
:: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would
:: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a
:: bat file that was running.
::
::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your
::: hard disk,
::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving
::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of
::: power.
::
:: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the
:: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right,
:: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used
:: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables
:: wake from.
::
::: On a laptop, use hibernation
::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an
::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge
::: the battery during that time.
:::
::: "
:::
::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you
::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from
::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC
::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those
::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC
::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation.
::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored
::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory
::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power
::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen;
::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and
::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard
::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when
::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that
::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before
::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space
::: allocated to Hibernate too.
::
:: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was,
:: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I
:: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it
:: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive
:: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe
:: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?)
:::
:::
::: HTH,
:::
:::
:::
::: Twayne`

Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all
power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were
working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is
no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& the
like.
Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it
first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?

HTH,

Twayne`

If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. At the very least the power supply
is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on.

But all that is true after Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off,
also, isn't it? And that's known as Off.

The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output
to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it
might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was
running.

Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the
mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary
contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off,
except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn
it back on again.

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged. Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. (that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)

On Mar 12, 10:14*am, "
wrote:
On Mar 11, 3:51*pm, "Twayne" wrote:



.com,
dadiOH typed::: marco polo wrote:

::: hi all,
:::
::: If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
::: should the Surge Protector remain on,

It doesn't really matter but it can be a handy place to remove power
completely from the PC if that's what you want to do.

::: or can I turn it off also?

Up to you.

::: Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?
::
:: Yes. *There are other conduits to the computer besides AC.

Well, that's kind of a useless post; what ARE they?

Phone modem connection, LAN connection, USB cable running to
a printer.....



They are things like ground interruptions surging or browning, taken away by
a good surge suppressor.

Surge protector/suppressor does nothing for brown out conditions.

With the surge protector, you are adding a bit of
protection to that of the computer but in a way it lessens the effects of
overall protection by putting surge suppression ckty in parallel, which
means, since it's not resistive, that the timing stretches out before they
fire because each one takes on the surge unless/until it gets high enough to
let some surges get through.

How exactly does the surge protector shunting the surge before most of
it
reaches the PC reduce protection? *Answer: *It doesn't. *In fact, a
tiered
approach is exactly what is recommended. * Best case is 3 tiers.
First is
a whole house surge protector at the panel. *Next is plug-in surge
protectors
at the point of use that clamp all lines coming into the PC/appliance
to the
same level, eg AC power, phone, cable.....

Exactly, some surge protection systems have more layers than that
starting at the PoCo's transformer, then the service entrance,
isolation transformer. Signal lines have shunt to ground gas
discharge suppressors, series inductors and shunt to ground solid-
state devices on the other side of the inductor. I have seen surge
protector boxes blown off the wall but the mainframe computers they
were feeding were unscathed .

Jimmie

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.

MOVs are voltage limiters. They are like parallel reverse connected
zenier diodes.

Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

MOVs have an energy (joule) rating. They can absorb as much energy as
the joule rating (and at that point are still functional). This is a
rating for a single surge. MOVs (and both service panel and plug-in
suppressors) with very high joule ratings are readily available. If the
energy hits a MOV takes are a small fraction of the single hit rating,
the cumulative energy the MOV can absorb will be far larger than the
stated rating. From another post, the energy dissipated in a plug-in
suppressor is surprisingly small. If a plug-in suppressor has a very
high rating it is likely to never fail. That is one reason why some of
them have protected equipment warranties.

As detailed in another post(and at length in the IEEE surge guide
below), some plug-in suppressors will disconnect the protected load if
the MOVs fail and are disconnected. Another reason why some suppressors
have protected equipment warranties.


Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005

The IEEE surge guide says "the vast majority (90%) of both hard-wired
and plug-in protectors use MOVs to perform the voltage-limiting
function. In most AC protectors, they are the only significant voltage
limiters."

I agree with trader.

If a device is not using a MOV it is probably marked as a feature.


An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

Surges produced in the house are not likely to damage to equipment,
which typically has an immunity level of 600-800V.

Service panel suppressors are good protection., The main hole left by a
service panel suppressor is that it does not limit the voltage between
power and phone and cable wires, which is likely to cause most damage.
If phone and cable (and dish) entry protectors are connected to the
power earthing system (as in gfretwell's post) and the wires are short,
much of that hole is filled. It is still possible to get about 4kV
between the coax shield and the center conductor, and a very near
lightning strike can induce damaging voltages with the wiring inside the
house acting as a loop or long-wire antenna.

UPSs seldom have ratings as high as are readily available in plug-in
suppressors. And UPSs with a surge rating often are not listed under UL1449.


I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.

The best protection is a service panel suppressor, short wires from
cable/phone/dish entry protectors to the power earthing system, and
plug-in suppressors for expensive equipment (particularly if it has
phone/cable connections).

And as stated elsewhere, if using a plug-in suppressor all
interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same suppressor
and external wires (power/phone/cable/...) needs to go through the
suppressor.

The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

Meter base suppressors (supplied by the utility) provide protection. The
IEEE surge guide talks about the length of wire used to connect a
service panel suppressor - as the wires get longer the let-through
voltage goes way up. In a meter base suppressor the earthing system is
usually connected to the service panel neutral. That means the neutral
wire from the meter to the service panel will raise the let-through
voltage of the suppressor.

--
bud--

On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)

TDD

On 3/13/2011 11:03 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:24:18 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

They can still put the PoCo surge protectors in a CT can. It is not
really in the meter. They just use the meter base as a connection
point.

But would those little wires to the meter carry the surge current?
I think it's #14-#12 wire and there are usually fuses in the CT meter
box to keep the small conductors from melting.

TDD

On 3/13/2011 9:16 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they
are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far.

AH! At last, someone who groks. :-)

TDD

On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On 3/13/2011 2:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:16 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they
are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far.

AH! At last, someone who groks. :-)

TDD

Grok, grok, grok.

On 3/13/2011 8:19 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 13, 7:39 am, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Any idea what this would cost?

I don't really know, the power company in this area handles/leases the
meter socket protection but the plug in surge arresters can be obtained
from the local electrical supplier or ordered online. Of course every
retailer seems to sell power strips and little UPS systems. :-)

http://www.stopsurges.com/BREAKER-TY...OTECTOR_c9.htm

TDD

On 3/13/2011 12:25 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:09:01 -0600,
wrote:

Meter base suppressors (supplied by the utility) provide protection. The
IEEE surge guide talks about the length of wire used to connect a
service panel suppressor - as the wires get longer the let-through
voltage goes way up. In a meter base suppressor the earthing system is
usually connected to the service panel neutral. That means the neutral
wire from the meter to the service panel will raise the let-through
voltage of the suppressor.

The meter base suppressor works best if the ground electrode conductor
lands in the meter base.
You really want your grounding paths to be as short and straight as
possible. You also want your cable and phone suppressors grounded
right there.

The plug in, point of use protection is just supposed to be
supplemental to that. A good plug in protector will also have smaller
capacitors and maybe an inductive element, meant to shunt off high
frequency transients (noise).
I live in a place with a thunderstorm just about every day for 6-7
months of the year and I never unplug anything ... but I have several
layers of protection for everything.

We had a bad storm system come through The Southeast last week and I was
sitting at my computer when I heard my UPS click and my electric heater
reset/shut off (electronic control) then a few seconds later a very loud
BOOM almost knocked my out of my chair. Computers and network equipment
never skipped a beat but my heart did. :-)

TDD

On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want
multiple meters. :-)

TDD

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:45:11 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output
to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it
might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was
running.

When the PC is turned off, power to the CPU and RAM are gone and
so is any contents.

Forgot that. Of course.


Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the
mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary
contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off,
except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn
it back on again.

Not sure if that's the only reason for seperating the on/off button
from
directly operating the line switch, but it's one obvious reason.
Another is that when you push the power button to turn it off, it
gives
the system time to perform a very quick but orderly shutdown that is
safer in terms of corrupting things than the instant power
interruption.

Oh, yeah. Of course.



The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else
is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's
installed.

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else
is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's
installed.

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)

On Mar 13, 4:30*pm, mm wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote:



On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged. *

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. *Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. * I don't think many people use the
word that way. *If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On. *

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. * So what else
is mine standing by for? *For me to push the on/off button. * By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. * And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. * *Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. *By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? *If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. *No jumper's
installed.

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. *

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? *Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? *For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. *ETc. etc. *??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook. *

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)

Wouldn't you want to access your email from the internet rather than a
POP3 server? WTF!

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa
wrote:


Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. *

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? *Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? *For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. *ETc. etc. *??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook. *

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)

Wouldn't you want to access your email from the internet rather than a
POP3 server? WTF!

No. I can't stand webmail. It's only for when nothing else is
possible, like a libary computer or when at someone's home. My last
long trip 4 years ago, I bought a laptop and put Eudora on it, but
didnt' delete any email from the server, so they could still be dl'd
at home. At that time, even though I put some Yahoo lists on hold,
it looked like I would run out of space on the server before I got
home, so I had a friend go to my house midway on my trip and dl my
mail.

They made my server mailbox much bigger about that time, but I still
pursue goals that maybe aren't important anymore. And
wake-on-lan/remote access would have many capabilities if I could do
it, not just email.

On 3/13/2011 4:31 PM, mm wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

Again, look at the subject!!!! I am saying if it is not unplugged or
turned of with a 120vac switch, then part of the circuitry is on and
more subject to spikes/surges then if it is turned off completely. Call
it standby if you wish, I don't care, but do so recognizing that it is
more subject to spikes/surges than if it were off completely. Can we
agree on this?

And yes about the TV on standby, *when talking about surges/spikes* that
is why some people unplug them during a lighting storm instead of just
turning them "off".

As far as the oven being on standby, *when talking about surges/spikes*
I'd say it is indeed on standby it is if it is controlled electronically
and has no mechanical switch to turn it off.

On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago
I posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the
old meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a
disconnect.

On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off
the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or
not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the
surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would
induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or
office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in
and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago I
posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the old
meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a disconnect.

Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything
like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch.

TDD

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else
is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's
installed.

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)
As far as the email is concerned, I have mine set up so that when
outlook on my home computer gets the mail it leaves it on the server
for 10 days - and I do the same on my notebook when travelling.

I can also get my email from web-mail at any internet cafe, library,
or other computer anywhere in the world.

It does not "synchronize" the emails - if I remove it on one machine
it is still on the other, and if I answer an email on one machine,
the other does not know about it.

On the office system we are setting up exchange to allow outlook web
access - which allows you to log onto the exchange server from
anywhere in the world, from computer or smart-phone , just like you
were on your workstation in the office.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else
is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's
installed.

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)


As far as surge protection is concerned, any equipment that does not
have a physical line switch turned off, or the power plug unplugged,
is subject to voltage spikes and surges if not adequately protected by
a surge arrester or dual conversion UPS.

Most motherboards today have the NIC built in - and WOL just needs to
be enabled in BIOS. (and the line switch needs to be ON, and the power
plugged in, and the port to WOL opened on the router)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:18:29 -0400, wrote:


As far as the email is concerned, I have mine set up so that when
outlook on my home computer gets the mail it leaves it on the server
for 10 days - and I do the same on my notebook when travelling.

I can also get my email from web-mail at any internet cafe, library,
or other computer anywhere in the world.

It does not "synchronize" the emails - if I remove it on one machine
it is still on the other, and if I answer an email on one machine,
the other does not know about it.

That was a problem after the last trip. Some emails had, or might
have had, important information that was in no incoming email.**

This trip, I'll be sending to myself a copy of everything I send out.

**In fact, I don't think I would have lost much, but I lost less by
backing up the laptop's harddrive when I got home, so I have
everything. And a good thing, becuase 30 months later, after not
using the computer for 27 months, I practically watched as the files
disappeared and then the directories.

The computer worked fine 27 months earlier, and I ddin't drop it or
anything during the intervening time.


On the office system we are setting up exchange to allow outlook web
access - which allows you to log onto the exchange server from
anywhere in the world, from computer or smart-phone , just like you
were on your workstation in the office.

Cool. I wish I worked where you do.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:30:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm
wrote:

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

Wake on LAN is for your local area network.

Oh yeah, that's what L stands for. So what was Tony talking about
people hacking my computer through LAN. The only one using my LAN at
home is me, at both ends!

People who share the same office? They can just come over and turn
the computer on when the person isn't there, and if a password is
required, they'll be stuck by LAN or by sea (in person).

You would need something
else for a remote wake up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN

Some MoBos have wake on modem in the BIOS.

My current one has that. I'll have to check my next one. Dang, it's a
Dell, got it free from a friend and doesn't have much documentation.
No reference to wake or LAN in the manual, and TAD connector is shown
on the sketch of the mobo but there is no reference to it. I knew
there woudl be a price for having a Dell instead of the fancy mobos a
another friend used to give me, including the one I'm using now, and
this is the start of it.

(If my trip were on schedule, I'd be still using this one, but it's
not on schedule.)

If you had a client
software run on boot-up, wake it up by modem and use something like
Team Viewer (FREE full version) (thinking out loud)?

http://www.teamviewer.com/en/index.aspx

Looks great, thanks.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500, mm
wrote:
Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone
posted says

"These outlet protectors
usually have an LED which
informs the user that the protector is
no longer working and must be
replaced. Unfortunately, nature does
not always cooperate with this
approach."

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

"Most lightning strokes are
not just singular, but consist of several
strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The
electronic equipment is likely to be
damaged before the homeowner
replaces the protector."

I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the
Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better.


(if your hand fits a
screwdriver, you can install one).

And you can keep your other hand off the bus bar.

Moreover, they have little light(s) to
tell you they are working.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:50:11 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost
hundreds
of dollars that use MOVs.

You're right. I didn't buy the wrong thing!

Accordign to http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

To eliminate this problem (the one I quoted in my preivous post),
a utility
grade surge arrester mounted at the
service entrance absorbs the bulk of
the energy from lightning surges,
allowing the local surge suppressor to
work properly. A durable, high-energy
service entrance arrester helps ensure
that other protective devices within
the house continue to work for years.

The service entrance surge arrester also
protects the wiring and electromechanical
loads (washers, dryers,etc.) in the home
from lightning damage.

Well my cheap one is whole house, so maybe it's somewhere in the
middle?

If BGE has a utility grade surge arrestor for my house, I don't know
how much they would charge.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:34:53 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:50:11 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:



So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost
hundreds
of dollars that use MOVs.

You're right. I didn't buy the wrong thing!

Accordign to http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

To eliminate this problem (the one I quoted in my preivous post),
a utility
grade surge arrester mounted at the
service entrance absorbs the bulk of
the energy from lightning surges,
allowing the local surge suppressor to
work properly. A durable, high-energy
service entrance arrester helps ensure
that other protective devices within
the house continue to work for years.

The service entrance surge arrester also
protects the wiring and electromechanical
loads (washers, dryers,etc.) in the home
from lightning damage.

Well my cheap one is whole house, so maybe it's somewhere in the
middle?

If BGE has a utility grade surge arrestor for my house, I don't know
how much they would charge.

I forgot. I don't know what it's like but the only one they have is 8
dollars a month, no installation charge. That's 100 dollars a year,
every year.

On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500,
wrote:
Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone
posted says

"These outlet protectors
usually have an LED which
informs the user that the protector is
no longer working and must be
replaced. Unfortunately, nature does
not always cooperate with this
approach."

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

"Most lightning strokes are
not just singular, but consist of several
strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The
electronic equipment is likely to be
damaged before the homeowner
replaces the protector."

I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the
Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better.

Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short and
blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a
couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to have
two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you have the
space.

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:09:01 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Meter base suppressors (supplied by the utility) provide protection. The
IEEE surge guide talks about the length of wire used to connect a
service panel suppressor - as the wires get longer the let-through
voltage goes way up. In a meter base suppressor the earthing system is
usually connected to the service panel neutral. That means the neutral
wire from the meter to the service panel will raise the let-through
voltage of the suppressor.

The meter base suppressor works best if the ground electrode conductor
lands in the meter base.

I agree. I would not want a meter base suppressor that did not have the
earthing electrode system connected at the meter. I don't think I have
ever seen one though.

You really want your grounding paths to be as short and straight as
possible. You also want your cable and phone suppressors grounded
right there.

I don't think this is as widely appreciated as it should be. You want
the minimum distance to the common connection point.

In some cases, the phone or cable entry point is too far distant from
the power service to make a short enough connection.


The plug in, point of use protection is just supposed to be
supplemental to that.

A surge suppressor at the service is a good idea.

But I don't see why a plug-in suppressor wouldn't be effective if there
is no service suppressor. As noted in another post, with no service
suppressor the energy that makes it to a plug-in suppressor is
surprisingly small because of arc-over at the service and impedance of
branch circuit wires. The paper that this comes from is probably still
on-line if you want to read it. I would want high joule ratings on the
suppressors. And particularly I would want high ratings if the branch
circuit to the service under 30 feet. Plug-in suppressors with high
ratings are readily available.

A good plug in protector will also have smaller
capacitors and maybe an inductive element, meant to shunt off high
frequency transients (noise).

Seems to be a real common feature. I never figured out if it does
something that is actually useful.

I live in a place with a thunderstorm just about every day for 6-7
months of the year and I never unplug anything ... but I have several
layers of protection for everything.

I agree that layers of protection are the best, and where you are you
want the best.

You can protect against about anything (including a direct building
strike - with lightning rods). (But I don't think I would want to run a
ham station with a high antenna in a thunderstorm.)

I liked your pseudolightning rod from another thread.

--
bud--

Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500,
wrote:
Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone
posted says

"These outlet protectors
usually have an LED which
informs the user that the protector is
no longer working and must be
replaced. Unfortunately, nature does
not always cooperate with this
approach."

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

"Most lightning strokes are
not just singular, but consist of several
strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The
electronic equipment is likely to be
damaged before the homeowner
replaces the protector."

UL1449 (since 1998) requires a disconnect for overheating MOVs. The
protected load can be connected across the MOVs, so it is disconnected
with the MOVs. That way the protected load does not loose protection
(although it will loose power). Some suppressors have warranties for
protected equipment. Plug-in suppressors with a warranty are likely
wired this way. (Obviously you can't do this with service panel
suppressors.)

Or the protected load can be connected ahead of the MOV protection. The
protected load would then stay powered without protection. According to
the IEEE surge guide, plug-in suppressors wired this way now are
required by UL to be identified.


I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the
Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better.

Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short and
blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a
couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to have
two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you have the
space.

Anything with a UL label built since 1998 has built in disconnects for
failing MOVs.

IMHO changing a suppressor violates the design and is a safety hazard.
There are a lot of things I would fix or change. A suppressor is not one
of them.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:28:15 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:09:01 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Lightning is seen to actually travel on
the outside skin of the conductors. That is why they use finely
stranded conductors on lightning rods.

I'm gonna start making 1/0 Litz wire.


The plug in, point of use protection is just supposed to be
supplemental to that.
A surge suppressor at the service is a good idea.

But I don't see why a plug-in suppressor wouldn't be effective if there
is no service suppressor. As noted in another post, with no service
suppressor the energy that makes it to a plug-in suppressor is
surprisingly small because of arc-over at the service and impedance of
branch circuit wires. The paper that this comes from is probably still
on-line if you want to read it. I would want high joule ratings on the
suppressors. And particularly I would want high ratings if the branch
circuit to the service under 30 feet. Plug-in suppressors with high
ratings are readily available.

The big problem is time, on the nano second scale. The faster you sink
the shot, the less chance you have that some leaks through to your
equipment. We had some luck simply using ferrite beads to slow down
the shot and a shorter grounding path going the other way.

I don't know of anything you get at a service panel or plug-in
suppressor that has a rise time that is too fast for MOVs on power
lines. If there is a very fast rise time the inductance of the wiring
will lower the rise time (and spread out the pulse). Gas discharge
tubes, which may be used on signal lines, may be slow

Our operation was protecting about 1000 customers who were not going
to turn off their computers every afternoon and unplug them.
We were on the leading edge of a lot of lightning protection schemes
but we did get pretty good at it.
The sooner you can bond all of your utilities the better off you are.
I understand nobody is going to be installing a new phone line and
most cable TV is already in place but I would not tolerate any new
installation that did not come in right next to my electrical entrance
... even if they had to run the cables all the way around the house
before it came in.
In fact the NEC has added a requirement for a multi system bonding
point right at the service, just for this reason.

I don't remember the basic requirement has changed, but the making the
connection is getting easier. You had a link to an "intersystem bonding
terminator" recently which I didn't look at right away. Looks slick.

--
bud--