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#41
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote: On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote: In news 
typed::: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne" wrote: :: ::: In ::: , ::: Bob typed: :::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco :::: wrote: ::::: . ::::: Hibernation, according to MS: ::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as ::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off ::::: computer, I suppose. ::::: ::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st. ::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, ::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. ::::: ::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, ::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored ::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least ::::: with Windows 7]. ::::: ::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] ::::: with the Suppressor off. ::::: ::::: thanks ::::: mark :::: :::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. :::: :::: ::: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...sked-questions ::: ::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? ::: All I see is: :: :: That's my question too. ::: " ::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily ::: for laptops. While :: :: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have :: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go :: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that :: were running. It picks up just where you left off. :: :: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or :: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going :: about 4 days lately. :: :: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and :: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need :: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other :: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run :: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still :: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, :: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no :: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to :: the regular speed. :: :: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, :: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from :: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the :: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I :: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4 :: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that :: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember :: all of them even with a cold start) :: :: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars :: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had :: was about 10 years old. :: ::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a ::: small amount of power, :: :: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the :: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, :: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would :: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a :: bat file that was running. :: ::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your ::: hard disk, ::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving ::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of ::: power. :: :: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the :: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, :: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used :: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables :: wake from. :: ::: On a laptop, use hibernation ::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an ::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge ::: the battery during that time. ::: ::: " ::: ::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you ::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from ::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC ::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those ::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC ::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. ::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored ::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory ::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power ::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; ::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and ::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard ::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when ::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that ::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before ::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space ::: allocated to Hibernate too. :: :: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, :: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I :: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it :: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive :: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe :: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?) ::: ::: ::: HTH, ::: ::: ::: ::: Twayne` Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& the like. Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility? HTH, Twayne` If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. At the very least the power supply is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on. But all that is true after Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off, also, isn't it? And that's known as Off. The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was running. Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off, except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn it back on again. The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? |
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#42
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:06:42 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, "HeyBub" wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco polo wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box I don't disagree with you, but for 50 to 75, you get an MOV kind that you calleed almost worthless. The ones I've seen do have a LED that stops being lit when the protector has been zapped. Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it blows. (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). And you can keep your other hand off the bus bar. Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. |
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#43
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 12, 9:51*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote: Innews
*typed::: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne" *wrote: :: ::: In , ::: Bob *typed: :::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco :::: wrote: ::::: . ::::: Hibernation, according to MS: ::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as ::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off ::::: computer, I suppose. ::::: ::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st. ::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, ::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. ::::: ::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, ::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored ::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least ::::: with Windows 7]. ::::: ::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] ::::: with the Suppressor off. ::::: ::::: thanks ::::: mark :::: :::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. :::: :::: ::: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...ibernation-fre.... ::: ::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? ::: All I see is: :: :: That's my question too. ::: " ::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily ::: for laptops. While :: :: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. *If you have :: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go :: start them again. *It even restarts cmd .bat files that :: were running. *It picks up just where you left off. :: :: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or :: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going :: about 4 days lately. :: :: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and :: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need :: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other :: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run :: out of RAM, you'll have to close. *Some programs still :: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, :: you can run out. *Or if the computer slows down for no :: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to :: the regular speed. :: :: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, :: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from :: Standby. *Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the :: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I :: have to restart all the programs. *(And the 10 year old, 4 :: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that :: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember :: all of them even with a cold start) :: :: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars :: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had :: was about 10 years old. :: ::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a ::: small amount of power, :: :: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the :: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, :: everything that was in memory is forgotten. * This would :: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. * Or a :: bat file that was running. :: ::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your ::: hard disk, ::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving ::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of ::: power. :: :: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the :: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, :: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used :: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables :: wake from. :: ::: On a laptop, use hibernation ::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an ::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge ::: the battery during that time. ::: ::: " ::: ::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you ::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from ::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC ::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those ::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC ::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. ::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored ::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory ::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power ::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; ::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and ::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard ::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when ::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that ::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before ::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space ::: allocated to Hibernate too. :: :: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, :: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. *I :: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it :: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive :: and back. * Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe :: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?) ::: ::: ::: HTH, ::: ::: ::: ::: Twayne` Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& *the like. * * Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility? HTH, Twayne` If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. *At the very least the power supply is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on. But all that is true after *Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off, also, isn't it? *And that's known as Off. The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was running. When the PC is turned off, power to the CPU and RAM are gone and so is any contents. Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off, except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn it back on again. Not sure if that's the only reason for seperating the on/off button from directly operating the line switch, but it's one obvious reason. Another is that when you push the power button to turn it off, it gives the system time to perform a very quick but orderly shutdown that is safer in terms of corrupting things than the instant power interruption. The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
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#44
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 12, 6:06*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, "HeyBub" wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco polo wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground.. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. Exactly what would that "sophisticated electronics" be? AFAIK, most surge protectors use MOVs because they are the device best suited to handle surges. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost hundreds of dollars that use MOVs. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - And guess what they use? MOVs |
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#45
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 12, 8:43*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, *wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, *wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco *wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. *A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. |
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#46
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD |
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#47
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 13, 7:39*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, * *wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, * *wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco * *wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. * Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. *As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. *The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. *A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear.. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Any idea what this would cost? |
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#48
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 11, 1:48*pm, marco polo wrote:
hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Turning them off doesn't do much for lightning/surge suppression if anything. Ive never lost a 'puter to lightning but I have lost a TV and several piece of test equipment I left plugged into my work bench..... They were turned off . As an electronics repairman over the years I have repaired many lightning damaged devices where all I had to do was replace the MOV. While I cant say with absolute certainty that this protected the device as I also have may crispy fried circuit s that had lightning protection I would say that the evidence I have seen leans in that direction. Jimmie |
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#49
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far. |
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#50
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. |
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#51
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 19:32:50 -0500, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 2:29 PM, Twayne wrote: In news
typed::: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne" wrote: :: ::: In ::: , ::: Bob typed: :::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco :::: wrote: ::::: . ::::: Hibernation, according to MS: ::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as ::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off ::::: computer, I suppose. ::::: ::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st. ::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, ::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. ::::: ::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, ::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored ::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least ::::: with Windows 7]. ::::: ::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] ::::: with the Suppressor off. ::::: ::::: thanks ::::: mark :::: :::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. :::: :::: ::: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...sked-questions ::: ::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? ::: All I see is: :: :: That's my question too. ::: " ::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily ::: for laptops. While :: :: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have :: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go :: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that :: were running. It picks up just where you left off. :: :: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or :: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going :: about 4 days lately. :: :: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and :: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need :: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other :: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run :: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still :: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, :: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no :: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to :: the regular speed. :: :: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, :: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from :: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the :: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I :: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4 :: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that :: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember :: all of them even with a cold start) :: :: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars :: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had :: was about 10 years old. :: ::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a ::: small amount of power, :: :: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the :: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, :: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would :: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a :: bat file that was running. :: ::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your ::: hard disk, ::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving ::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of ::: power. :: :: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the :: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, :: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used :: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables :: wake from. :: ::: On a laptop, use hibernation ::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an ::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge ::: the battery during that time. ::: ::: " ::: ::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you ::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from ::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC ::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those ::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC ::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. ::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored ::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory ::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power ::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; ::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and ::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard ::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when ::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that ::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before ::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space ::: allocated to Hibernate too. :: :: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, :: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I :: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it :: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive :: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe :: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?) ::: ::: ::: HTH, ::: ::: ::: ::: Twayne` Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops& the like. Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility? HTH, Twayne` If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. At the very least the power supply is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on. But all that is true after Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off, also, isn't it? And that's known as Off. The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was running. Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off, except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn it back on again. The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) |
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#52
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 12, 10:14*am, "
wrote: On Mar 11, 3:51*pm, "Twayne" wrote: .com, dadiOH typed::: marco polo wrote: ::: hi all, ::: ::: If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] ::: should the Surge Protector remain on, It doesn't really matter but it can be a handy place to remove power completely from the PC if that's what you want to do. ::: or can I turn it off also? Up to you. ::: Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? :: :: Yes. *There are other conduits to the computer besides AC. Well, that's kind of a useless post; what ARE they? Phone modem connection, LAN connection, USB cable running to a printer..... They are things like ground interruptions surging or browning, taken away by a good surge suppressor. Surge protector/suppressor does nothing for brown out conditions. With the surge protector, you are adding a bit of protection to that of the computer but in a way it lessens the effects of overall protection by putting surge suppression ckty in parallel, which means, since it's not resistive, that the timing stretches out before they fire because each one takes on the surge unless/until it gets high enough to let some surges get through. How exactly does the surge protector shunting the surge before most of it reaches the PC reduce protection? *Answer: *It doesn't. *In fact, a tiered approach is exactly what is recommended. * Best case is 3 tiers. First is a whole house surge protector at the panel. *Next is plug-in surge protectors at the point of use that clamp all lines coming into the PC/appliance to the same level, eg AC power, phone, cable..... Exactly, some surge protection systems have more layers than that starting at the PoCo's transformer, then the service entrance, isolation transformer. Signal lines have shunt to ground gas discharge suppressors, series inductors and shunt to ground solid- state devices on the other side of the inductor. I have seen surge protector boxes blown off the wall but the mainframe computers they were feeding were unscathed . Jimmie |
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#53
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. MOVs are voltage limiters. They are like parallel reverse connected zenier diodes. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. MOVs have an energy (joule) rating. They can absorb as much energy as the joule rating (and at that point are still functional). This is a rating for a single surge. MOVs (and both service panel and plug-in suppressors) with very high joule ratings are readily available. If the energy hits a MOV takes are a small fraction of the single hit rating, the cumulative energy the MOV can absorb will be far larger than the stated rating. From another post, the energy dissipated in a plug-in suppressor is surprisingly small. If a plug-in suppressor has a very high rating it is likely to never fail. That is one reason why some of them have protected equipment warranties. As detailed in another post(and at length in the IEEE surge guide below), some plug-in suppressors will disconnect the protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected. Another reason why some suppressors have protected equipment warranties. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 The IEEE surge guide says "the vast majority (90%) of both hard-wired and plug-in protectors use MOVs to perform the voltage-limiting function. In most AC protectors, they are the only significant voltage limiters." I agree with trader. If a device is not using a MOV it is probably marked as a feature. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. Surges produced in the house are not likely to damage to equipment, which typically has an immunity level of 600-800V. Service panel suppressors are good protection., The main hole left by a service panel suppressor is that it does not limit the voltage between power and phone and cable wires, which is likely to cause most damage. If phone and cable (and dish) entry protectors are connected to the power earthing system (as in gfretwell's post) and the wires are short, much of that hole is filled. It is still possible to get about 4kV between the coax shield and the center conductor, and a very near lightning strike can induce damaging voltages with the wiring inside the house acting as a loop or long-wire antenna. UPSs seldom have ratings as high as are readily available in plug-in suppressors. And UPSs with a surge rating often are not listed under UL1449. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The best protection is a service panel suppressor, short wires from cable/phone/dish entry protectors to the power earthing system, and plug-in suppressors for expensive equipment (particularly if it has phone/cable connections). And as stated elsewhere, if using a plug-in suppressor all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same suppressor and external wires (power/phone/cable/...) needs to go through the suppressor. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf Meter base suppressors (supplied by the utility) provide protection. The IEEE surge guide talks about the length of wire used to connect a service panel suppressor - as the wires get longer the let-through voltage goes way up. In a meter base suppressor the earthing system is usually connected to the service panel neutral. That means the neutral wire from the meter to the service panel will raise the let-through voltage of the suppressor. -- bud-- |
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#54
Posted to alt.home.repair
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-) TDD |
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#55
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
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#56
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 9:16 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far. AH! At last, someone who groks. :-) TDD |
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#57
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-) 200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety nutn'. Don't lean there. |
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#58
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 2:28 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:16 AM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD I would agree the cascaded protection would be your best bet by far. AH! At last, someone who groks. :-) TDD Grok, grok, grok. |
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#59
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 8:19 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 13, 7:39 am, The Daring wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Any idea what this would cost? I don't really know, the power company in this area handles/leases the meter socket protection but the plug in surge arresters can be obtained from the local electrical supplier or ordered online. Of course every retailer seems to sell power strips and little UPS systems. :-) http://www.stopsurges.com/BREAKER-TY...OTECTOR_c9.htm TDD |
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#60
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
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#61
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-) 200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety nutn'. Don't lean there. On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building. This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want multiple meters. :-) TDD |
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#62
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:45:11 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was running. When the PC is turned off, power to the CPU and RAM are gone and so is any contents. Forgot that. Of course. Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off, except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn it back on again. Not sure if that's the only reason for seperating the on/off button from directly operating the line switch, but it's one obvious reason. Another is that when you push the power button to turn it off, it gives the system time to perform a very quick but orderly shutdown that is safer in terms of corrupting things than the instant power interruption. Oh, yeah. Of course. The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
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#63
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it on. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's installed. (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) |
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#64
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it on. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's installed. Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder. I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get the password. ETc. etc. ?? **I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while traveling also on the netbook. (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) |
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#65
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Mar 13, 4:30*pm, mm wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. *IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. * So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. *Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. * I don't think many people use the word that way. *If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. * OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. * So what else is mine standing by for? *For me to push the on/off button. * By that token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off to Cotton. * And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to oven. * *Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it on. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. *By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? *If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. *No jumper's installed. Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder. I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. * Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my email**? *Or even do other things with software installed on it that's not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? *For example, if I forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get the password. *ETc. etc. *?? **I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while traveling also on the netbook. * (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) Wouldn't you want to access your email from the internet rather than a POP3 server? WTF! |
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#66
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT), Bob Villa
wrote: Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder. I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. * Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my email**? *Or even do other things with software installed on it that's not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? *For example, if I forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get the password. *ETc. etc. *?? **I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while traveling also on the netbook. * (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) Wouldn't you want to access your email from the internet rather than a POP3 server? WTF! No. I can't stand webmail. It's only for when nothing else is possible, like a libary computer or when at someone's home. My last long trip 4 years ago, I bought a laptop and put Eudora on it, but didnt' delete any email from the server, so they could still be dl'd at home. At that time, even though I put some Yahoo lists on hold, it looked like I would run out of space on the server before I got home, so I had a friend go to my house midway on my trip and dl my mail. They made my server mailbox much bigger about that time, but I still pursue goals that maybe aren't important anymore. And wake-on-lan/remote access would have many capabilities if I could do it, not just email. |
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#67
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 4:31 PM, mm wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. Again, look at the subject!!!! I am saying if it is not unplugged or turned of with a 120vac switch, then part of the circuitry is on and more subject to spikes/surges then if it is turned off completely. Call it standby if you wish, I don't care, but do so recognizing that it is more subject to spikes/surges than if it were off completely. Can we agree on this? And yes about the TV on standby, *when talking about surges/spikes* that is why some people unplug them during a lighting storm instead of just turning them "off". As far as the oven being on standby, *when talking about surges/spikes* I'd say it is indeed on standby it is if it is controlled electronically and has no mechanical switch to turn it off. |
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#68
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-) 200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety nutn'. Don't lean there. On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building. This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want multiple meters. :-) I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago I posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the old meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a disconnect. |
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#69
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring wrote: On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote: wrote: On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote: Bob Villa wrote: On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote: hi all, If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle] thanks marc Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down". Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean removes power in exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The power consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is zero; they are identical in this regard. Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by Hibernation, does not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power supply does maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in case the battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan. You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the switch on the computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the case.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC. Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators. You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through. Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter. So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. "Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless. I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below: http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf TDD That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office. The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or office electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in and easy to do. :-) TDD Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter. What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-) 200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety nutn'. Don't lean there. On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building. This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want multiple meters. :-) I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago I posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the old meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a disconnect. Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch. TDD |
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#70
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm
wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it on. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's installed. Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder. I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get the password. ETc. etc. ?? **I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while traveling also on the netbook. (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) As far as the email is concerned, I have mine set up so that when outlook on my home computer gets the mail it leaves it on the server for 10 days - and I do the same on my notebook when travelling. I can also get my email from web-mail at any internet cafe, library, or other computer anywhere in the world. It does not "synchronize" the emails - if I remove it on one machine it is still on the other, and if I answer an email on one machine, the other does not know about it. On the office system we are setting up exchange to allow outlook web access - which allows you to log onto the exchange server from anywhere in the world, from computer or smart-phone , just like you were on your workstation in the office. |
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#71
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400, mm
wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos wrote: On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote: snip The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file. If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off? Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power cord is unplugged. So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby, I'd go for that, but not On. OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it on. Remember that this whole thread subject is about surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan" option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above. I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's installed. (that is if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection to the internet.) As far as surge protection is concerned, any equipment that does not have a physical line switch turned off, or the power plug unplugged, is subject to voltage spikes and surges if not adequately protected by a surge arrester or dual conversion UPS. Most motherboards today have the NIC built in - and WOL just needs to be enabled in BIOS. (and the line switch needs to be ON, and the power plugged in, and the port to WOL opened on the router) |
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#72
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
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#73
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:30:35 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm wrote: Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder. I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled. Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get the password. ETc. etc. ?? **I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while traveling also on the netbook. Wake on LAN is for your local area network. Oh yeah, that's what L stands for. So what was Tony talking about people hacking my computer through LAN. The only one using my LAN at home is me, at both ends! People who share the same office? They can just come over and turn the computer on when the person isn't there, and if a password is required, they'll be stuck by LAN or by sea (in person). You would need something else for a remote wake up? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN Some MoBos have wake on modem in the BIOS. My current one has that. I'll have to check my next one. Dang, it's a Dell, got it free from a friend and doesn't have much documentation. No reference to wake or LAN in the manual, and TAD connector is shown on the sketch of the mobo but there is no reference to it. I knew there woudl be a price for having a Dell instead of the fancy mobos a another friend used to give me, including the one I'm using now, and this is the start of it. (If my trip were on schedule, I'd be still using this one, but it's not on schedule.) If you had a client software run on boot-up, wake it up by modem and use something like Team Viewer (FREE full version) (thinking out loud)? http://www.teamviewer.com/en/index.aspx Looks great, thanks. |
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#74
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500, mm
wrote: Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it blows. Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone posted says "These outlet protectors usually have an LED which informs the user that the protector is no longer working and must be replaced. Unfortunately, nature does not always cooperate with this approach." THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART: "Most lightning strokes are not just singular, but consist of several strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The electronic equipment is likely to be damaged before the homeowner replaces the protector." I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better. (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). And you can keep your other hand off the bus bar. Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working. |
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#75
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:50:11 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost hundreds of dollars that use MOVs. You're right. I didn't buy the wrong thing! Accordign to http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf To eliminate this problem (the one I quoted in my preivous post), a utility grade surge arrester mounted at the service entrance absorbs the bulk of the energy from lightning surges, allowing the local surge suppressor to work properly. A durable, high-energy service entrance arrester helps ensure that other protective devices within the house continue to work for years. The service entrance surge arrester also protects the wiring and electromechanical loads (washers, dryers,etc.) in the home from lightning damage. Well my cheap one is whole house, so maybe it's somewhere in the middle? If BGE has a utility grade surge arrestor for my house, I don't know how much they would charge. |
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:34:53 -0400, mm
wrote: On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 04:50:11 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind. I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost hundreds of dollars that use MOVs. You're right. I didn't buy the wrong thing! Accordign to http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf To eliminate this problem (the one I quoted in my preivous post), a utility grade surge arrester mounted at the service entrance absorbs the bulk of the energy from lightning surges, allowing the local surge suppressor to work properly. A durable, high-energy service entrance arrester helps ensure that other protective devices within the house continue to work for years. The service entrance surge arrester also protects the wiring and electromechanical loads (washers, dryers,etc.) in the home from lightning damage. Well my cheap one is whole house, so maybe it's somewhere in the middle? If BGE has a utility grade surge arrestor for my house, I don't know how much they would charge. I forgot. I don't know what it's like but the only one they have is 8 dollars a month, no installation charge. That's 100 dollars a year, every year. |
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500, wrote: Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it blows. Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone posted says "These outlet protectors usually have an LED which informs the user that the protector is no longer working and must be replaced. Unfortunately, nature does not always cooperate with this approach." THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART: "Most lightning strokes are not just singular, but consist of several strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The electronic equipment is likely to be damaged before the homeowner replaces the protector." I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better. Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short and blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to have two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you have the space. |
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
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computer Surge Suppressor-protector question
Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote: On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500, wrote: Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it blows. Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone posted says "These outlet protectors usually have an LED which informs the user that the protector is no longer working and must be replaced. Unfortunately, nature does not always cooperate with this approach." THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART: "Most lightning strokes are not just singular, but consist of several strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The electronic equipment is likely to be damaged before the homeowner replaces the protector." UL1449 (since 1998) requires a disconnect for overheating MOVs. The protected load can be connected across the MOVs, so it is disconnected with the MOVs. That way the protected load does not loose protection (although it will loose power). Some suppressors have warranties for protected equipment. Plug-in suppressors with a warranty are likely wired this way. (Obviously you can't do this with service panel suppressors.) Or the protected load can be connected ahead of the MOV protection. The protected load would then stay powered without protection. According to the IEEE surge guide, plug-in suppressors wired this way now are required by UL to be identified. I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better. Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short and blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to have two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you have the space. Anything with a UL label built since 1998 has built in disconnects for failing MOVs. IMHO changing a suppressor violates the design and is a safety hazard. There are a lot of things I would fix or change. A suppressor is not one of them. -- bud-- |
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