On 3/14/2011 12:39 PM, bud-- wrote:
Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500,
wrote:
Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone
posted says

"These outlet protectors
usually have an LED which
informs the user that the protector is
no longer working and must be
replaced. Unfortunately, nature does
not always cooperate with this
approach."

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

"Most lightning strokes are
not just singular, but consist of several
strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The
electronic equipment is likely to be
damaged before the homeowner
replaces the protector."

UL1449 (since 1998) requires a disconnect for overheating MOVs. The
protected load can be connected across the MOVs, so it is disconnected
with the MOVs. That way the protected load does not loose protection
(although it will loose power). Some suppressors have warranties for
protected equipment. Plug-in suppressors with a warranty are likely
wired this way. (Obviously you can't do this with service panel
suppressors.)

Or the protected load can be connected ahead of the MOV protection. The
protected load would then stay powered without protection. According to
the IEEE surge guide, plug-in suppressors wired this way now are
required by UL to be identified.


I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the
Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better.

Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short
and blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a
couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to
have two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you
have the space.

Anything with a UL label built since 1998 has built in disconnects for
failing MOVs.

I did see a change inside some equipment where they put a fuse before
the MOV. Would this have anything to do with new code? (It is inside
the equipment) If I were to make one extra safe, I'd put a few fuses in
series with a MOV parallel after each fuse.

IMHO changing a suppressor violates the design and is a safety hazard.
There are a lot of things I would fix or change. A suppressor is not one
of them.

A MOV parralell across the hot and neutral is pretty basic stuff and
doesn't get much simpler. But yes, if you don't know basic electronics
maybe you shouldn't do it. Putting in a larger rated MOV or several
MOV's in parallell is like what many people do by plugging a surge
suppressor into another surge protector for better protection. Or
plugging in a multi outlet strip with surge protection into a surge
protector and then to the outlet. Any dangers with those idea's too?

On 3/13/2011 8:45 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off
the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The
power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or
not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the
surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand
fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would
induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical
home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or
office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in
and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage, think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago I
posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the old
meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a
disconnect.

Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything
like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch.

TDD

Crazy? I agree! I'll put my fingers and tools inside a breaker box
with a 200 amp breaker, but I'm not getting near the side that is before
the breaker.

On 3/13/2011 9:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400,
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:31:20 -0400,
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 10:39:43 -0400, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 3/12/2011 8:51 PM, mm wrote:
snip

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before
turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the
OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the
same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and
probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and
what is Off?

Off is when the hard wired switch on the P/S is off and/or the power
cord is unplugged.

So that probably means none of the tvs in your house are ever off
except when you're moving furniture. Or any of the devices with a
power transformer and a switch in the secondary circuit, which is most
radios and lots of other stuff. I don't think many people use the
word that way. If you want to say the computers etc. are on standby,
I'd go for that, but not On.

OTOH, they're not really on standy unless one of the Wake functions is
enabled and connected, and none of them are in my case. So what else
is mine standing by for? For me to push the on/off button. By that
token, the iron is standing by for me to move the temp lever from Off
to Cotton. And the oven is standing by for me to turn the knob to
oven. Hmmmm, depending on the orders given to it by the
manufacturers, maybe even the stuff that hasn't been sold yet, is
standing by in the stores for me to buy it, connect it, and turn it
on.

Remember that this whole thread subject is about
surge protection, just like your TV with a remote control, the pc is on
unless it's unplugged. By the way, you don't leave the "wake on lan"
option turned on do you? If you do it will allow someone to hack into
your computer when it's "turned off" as you described above.

I paid attention to this and I don't know about other computers but
mine requires a jumper wire from the LAN card to the Wake-on-LAN
connector on the mobo to be able to wake it via the LAN. No jumper's
installed.

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

(that is
if the modem and/or router are turned on also and you have a connection
to the internet.)
As far as the email is concerned, I have mine set up so that when
outlook on my home computer gets the mail it leaves it on the server
for 10 days - and I do the same on my notebook when travelling.

I can also get my email from web-mail at any internet cafe, library,
or other computer anywhere in the world.

It does not "synchronize" the emails - if I remove it on one machine
it is still on the other, and if I answer an email on one machine,
the other does not know about it.

On the office system we are setting up exchange to allow outlook web
access - which allows you to log onto the exchange server from
anywhere in the world, from computer or smart-phone , just like you
were on your workstation in the office.

Yes, my sister works out of her home most of the time and logs on to the
server at work. I can send her private email on that line but it will
not allow any download from anywhere other than the server. She can
surf the web, but all file downloads, updates, windows updates, virus
updates... everything has to come through the server at work.

On 3/13/2011 11:18 PM, mm wrote:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:30:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400,
wrote:

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

Wake on LAN is for your local area network.

Oh yeah, that's what L stands for. So what was Tony talking about
people hacking my computer through LAN. The only one using my LAN at
home is me, at both ends!

"Local" doesn't always mean what it sounds like. I don't know about
your setup but my internet and millions of others go *through* the LAN.
Click on settings, network connections and you should see a path going
to your internet service.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:06:23 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:18:29 -0400, wrote:


As far as the email is concerned, I have mine set up so that when
outlook on my home computer gets the mail it leaves it on the server
for 10 days - and I do the same on my notebook when travelling.

I can also get my email from web-mail at any internet cafe, library,
or other computer anywhere in the world.

It does not "synchronize" the emails - if I remove it on one machine
it is still on the other, and if I answer an email on one machine,
the other does not know about it.


Rou misread me, or I misread you. It is only the REMOVING of the mail
on one that the other does not know about.

You can set the length of time the mail remains o the server from one
or two days to forever
That was a problem after the last trip. Some emails had, or might
have had, important information that was in no incoming email.**

This trip, I'll be sending to myself a copy of everything I send out.

**In fact, I don't think I would have lost much, but I lost less by
backing up the laptop's harddrive when I got home, so I have
everything. And a good thing, becuase 30 months later, after not
using the computer for 27 months, I practically watched as the files
disappeared and then the directories.

The computer worked fine 27 months earlier, and I ddin't drop it or
anything during the intervening time.


On the office system we are setting up exchange to allow outlook web
access - which allows you to log onto the exchange server from
anywhere in the world, from computer or smart-phone , just like you
were on your workstation in the office.

Cool. I wish I worked where you do.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:18:18 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:30:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm
wrote:

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

Wake on LAN is for your local area network.

Oh yeah, that's what L stands for. So what was Tony talking about
people hacking my computer through LAN. The only one using my LAN at
home is me, at both ends!


If you are on the internet your LAN can be an extention of the WAN ,
or internet, and under some conditions can be reached from outside (if
you open up the router, for instance)

People who share the same office? They can just come over and turn
the computer on when the person isn't there, and if a password is
required, they'll be stuck by LAN or by sea (in person).

You would need something
else for a remote wake up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN

Some MoBos have wake on modem in the BIOS.

My current one has that. I'll have to check my next one. Dang, it's a
Dell, got it free from a friend and doesn't have much documentation.
No reference to wake or LAN in the manual, and TAD connector is shown
on the sketch of the mobo but there is no reference to it. I knew
there woudl be a price for having a Dell instead of the fancy mobos a
another friend used to give me, including the one I'm using now, and
this is the start of it.

(If my trip were on schedule, I'd be still using this one, but it's
not on schedule.)

If you had a client
software run on boot-up, wake it up by modem and use something like
Team Viewer (FREE full version) (thinking out loud)?

http://www.teamviewer.com/en/index.aspx

Looks great, thanks.

On 3/14/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:45 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn
them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off
the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The
power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock (in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could
still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or
not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the
surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge
protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand
fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would
induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical
home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or
office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the
meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available
two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in
and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do
you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage,
think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch
like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't
want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time ago I
posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the old
meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a
disconnect.

Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything
like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch.

TDD

Crazy? I agree! I'll put my fingers and tools inside a breaker box with
a 200 amp breaker, but I'm not getting near the side that is before the
breaker.

There have been occasions when I had to kook up a service entrance to a
drop and I use a special insulation piercing connector that takes a
wrench to install. I would cut the drop loose, swap the meter can for
a fused safety switch or big breaker in the range that matches the amp
rating of the wire then reconnect the drop with the Blackburn taps.

http://www.elastimold.net/ps/fulltil...i?part=IPC3535

I've worked 15kv underground service cable taps and splices to hook up
transformers. Little old 240 volt service doesn't scare me but I treat
power cables like like they are energized at all times. It's good
practice to always treat electrical power with respect. ^_^

TDD

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:39:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:



IMHO changing a suppressor violates the design and is a safety hazard.
There are a lot of things I would fix or change. A suppressor is not one
of them.

Yes, they got pretty mad at me in sci.electronics.repair when I
suggested that I would repair my whole-house suppressover if the MOVs
blew.

My theory was that would justify my buying an expensive one, if I knew
I coudl keep it running, but they didnt' like that and no one defended
my position.

--
bud--

On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:25:28 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:18:18 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:30:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:30:00 -0400, mm
wrote:

Actually, my next mobo has LAN built in, so thanks for the reminder.
I'll make sure that wake-on-lan is disabled.

Although if went out of town for a long time, would turning it on
temporarily it enable me to turn the computer on and download my
email**? Or even do other things with software installed on it that's
not installed on the netbook I'll be borrowing? For example, if I
forgot a password that was in my home computer, and I had Remote
Assistance enabled, and I had the password with me, would that let me
start the computer with wake on lan, then run the computer, and get
the password. ETc. etc. ??

**I want it all on my home computer, and the part I get while
traveling also on the netbook.

Wake on LAN is for your local area network.

Oh yeah, that's what L stands for. So what was Tony talking about
people hacking my computer through LAN. The only one using my LAN at
home is me, at both ends!


If you are on the internet your LAN can be an extention of the WAN ,
or internet, and under some conditions can be reached from outside (if
you open up the router, for instance)

Computers. Too complicated for me.

Maybe I'll just send a letter home adn see if that starts the email
download.

On 3/14/2011 10:11 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/14/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:45 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring
wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem,
printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn
them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off
the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The
power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock
(in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could
still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or
not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse
fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the
surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge
protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand
fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would
induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best
practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual
pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at
page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical
home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or
office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the
meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the
electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available
two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your
computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all plug in
and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do
you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage,
think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch
like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no
safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the
building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the
can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't
want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time
ago I
posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the
old
meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a
disconnect.

Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything
like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch.

TDD

Crazy? I agree! I'll put my fingers and tools inside a breaker box with
a 200 amp breaker, but I'm not getting near the side that is before the
breaker.

There have been occasions when I had to kook up a service entrance to a
drop and I use a special insulation piercing connector that takes a
wrench to install. I would cut the drop loose, swap the meter can for
a fused safety switch or big breaker in the range that matches the amp
rating of the wire then reconnect the drop with the Blackburn taps.

http://www.elastimold.net/ps/fulltil...i?part=IPC3535

I've worked 15kv underground service cable taps and splices to hook up
transformers. Little old 240 volt service doesn't scare me but I treat
power cables like like they are energized at all times. It's good
practice to always treat electrical power with respect. ^_^

TDD

At my old house I saw them working on the underground cables at a big
box thing with a lid down by the road. The cables were lying in water!
I think it was high voltage because the cable ran 250 feet to my
propety line to an above ground transformer and then to my house. (Had
it marked for digging purposes.) They were moving the cables around
with a long fiberglass? pole. Turned out they couldn't find the short
and backtracked and replaced the insulator on the pole a few hundred
feet up the road were the fuse blew. It always seemed odd that there
were above ground lines except for me and 4 other houses. There was a
high tension line above the area and I wondered if that had something to
do with our services being underground?

On 3/15/2011 9:23 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/14/2011 10:11 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/14/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:45 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring

wrote:
On 3/12/2011 4:19 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Mar 12, 4:06 pm, wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 11, 4:59 pm, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 11, 11:48 am, marco
wrote:
hi all,

If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation]
should the Surge Protector remain on,
or can I turn it off also?
Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?

And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem,
printer]
plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn
them
all
off. That way, at the end of the year,
I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]

thanks
marc

Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to
the
PC. It
is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn
off
the
surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".

Hibernation DOES turn off the computer. By turn off, I mean
removes
power in
exactly the same way as "powering down" the computer. The
power
consumption difference between hibernation and shut-down is
zero;
they are identical in
this regard.

Now "powering down," whether by front-panel switch or by
Hibernation, does
not remove all power from the computer. The computer's
power
supply
does
maintain a trickle voltage to maintain the internal clock
(in
case
the
battery fails) or, in some cases, wake-on-lan.

You can completely "power-down" the computer by flipping
the
switch
on the
computer's power supply - if it has one - on the back of
the
case.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was
completely
disconnected
via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could
still
arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no
effect on
it's surge
protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As
long as
it's
connected
the MOVs are still there
between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or
not.
The
surge
protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED
indicators.

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse
fuses -
they are
normally open until they see a surge, then they short the
surge to
ground.
Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a
few
times). Then
they no longer work and the strip passes the surge
straight on
through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics
continue
to work,
no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the
neighborhood of
five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost
$50.00
or more,
it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge
protector.
These cost
$50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand
fits a
screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little
light(s) to
tell you they are working.

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge
suppression would be a better one.
Any high-current device switching on or off and going
through a
common
conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would
induce a
surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression
pointless.

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best
practice
was to
cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a
structure.
Then at distribution panels to protection at individual
pieces of
gear.
The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter
socket
and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at
page
7 of
the pdf from the link below:

http://www.apsllc.net/Cooper%20Power/Line/Aug97.pdf

TDD

That is all well and good if it is designed from the
construction
start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical
home or
office.

The meter socket surge arrester can be installed on any home or
office
electrical service. Pull the meter, plug in the unit where the
meter
goes then plug the meter into the surge arrester. At the
electrical
panel, a new type of surge arrester that plugs into an available
two
pole breaker slot is simple to install. You then plug your
computer
gear into your UPS or surge arrester power strip. It's all
plug in
and
easy to do. :-)

TDD

Well almost. I couldn't use the meter socket since I have a
current
transformer set up. The electric I use doesn't go through my
meter.

What's he amp rating on your service? Is it 3 phase commercial? Do
you
have a BFS Big Freaking Switch on the main power coming in? :-)


200 amp, single phase, one to the house and one to the garage,
think of
a farm type set up. Sorry I don't have a big freaking knife switch
like
in Frankenstein but that would be cool! Open air switch with no
safety
nutn'. Don't lean there.

On most of the CT metered service entrances I've installed, there
is a
big fused safety switch to kill the main power going into the
building.
This is so the fire department can knock the lock off and kill the
power. At a home, the fireman will knock the power meter out of the
can
to kill the power. In your case, I suppose the power company didn't
want
multiple meters. :-)

I didn't want separate meters because the 2nd one would be billed at
commercial rates along with a service charge each month. Some time
ago I
posted here that I have no disconnect to the garage and I got replies
saying code doesn't call for a disconnect. Going to the house is the
old
meter base with jumpers, so I'd say that could be considered a
disconnect.

Well, I'm considered crazy for working stuff hot but I work everything
like it's hot anyway. I'd swap out the meter box for a safety switch.

TDD

Crazy? I agree! I'll put my fingers and tools inside a breaker box with
a 200 amp breaker, but I'm not getting near the side that is before the
breaker.

There have been occasions when I had to kook up a service entrance to a
drop and I use a special insulation piercing connector that takes a
wrench to install. I would cut the drop loose, swap the meter can for
a fused safety switch or big breaker in the range that matches the amp
rating of the wire then reconnect the drop with the Blackburn taps.

http://www.elastimold.net/ps/fulltil...i?part=IPC3535

I've worked 15kv underground service cable taps and splices to hook up
transformers. Little old 240 volt service doesn't scare me but I treat
power cables like like they are energized at all times. It's good
practice to always treat electrical power with respect. ^_^

TDD

At my old house I saw them working on the underground cables at a big
box thing with a lid down by the road. The cables were lying in water! I
think it was high voltage because the cable ran 250 feet to my propety
line to an above ground transformer and then to my house. (Had it marked
for digging purposes.) They were moving the cables around with a long
fiberglass? pole. Turned out they couldn't find the short and
backtracked and replaced the insulator on the pole a few hundred feet up
the road were the fuse blew. It always seemed odd that there were above
ground lines except for me and 4 other houses. There was a high tension
line above the area and I wondered if that had something to do with our
services being underground?

Think induction, high voltage burial cable has a coaxial shield.

TDD

Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/14/2011 12:39 PM, bud-- wrote:
Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 11:30 PM, mm wrote:
On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:07:38 -0500,
wrote:
Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next
one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the
description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a
red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded
great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had
one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy
it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so
I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such
surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it
blows.

Well, a big flaw in that thinking of mine. The pdf file someone
posted says

"These outlet protectors
usually have an LED which
informs the user that the protector is
no longer working and must be
replaced. Unfortunately, nature does
not always cooperate with this
approach."

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

"Most lightning strokes are
not just singular, but consist of several
strokes spaced milliseconds apart. The
electronic equipment is likely to be
damaged before the homeowner
replaces the protector."

UL1449 (since 1998) requires a disconnect for overheating MOVs. The
protected load can be connected across the MOVs, so it is disconnected
with the MOVs. That way the protected load does not loose protection
(although it will loose power). Some suppressors have warranties for
protected equipment. Plug-in suppressors with a warranty are likely
wired this way. (Obviously you can't do this with service panel
suppressors.)

Or the protected load can be connected ahead of the MOV protection. The
protected load would then stay powered without protection. According to
the IEEE surge guide, plug-in suppressors wired this way now are
required by UL to be identified.


I shoudl have bought a better one, although I don't know if the
Intermatic for 130 or 160 is really better.

Not always as bad as it sounds, many MOV's just become a dead short
and blow the breaker. I've also opened up some protectors and added a
couple more MOV's parallel. Radio Little Run Down Building used to
have two kinds of 130V MOV's, of course get the bigger ones if you
have the space.

Anything with a UL label built since 1998 has built in disconnects for
failing MOVs.

I did see a change inside some equipment where they put a fuse before
the MOV. Would this have anything to do with new code? (It is inside
the equipment) If I were to make one extra safe, I'd put a few fuses in
series with a MOV parallel after each fuse.

The disconnects, specifically in surge suppressors (not 'equipment'),
are to prevent the suppressor from being a fire hazard. The disconnects
are likely near the MOVs to respond at least partly to MOV heat. A
normal fuse may work. But the whole thing, in a competent design,
provides overheating protection while not disconnecting until the MOVs
are failing. It is an engineered product.

I used to use a homemade plug-in surge suppressor. It included a fuse. I
decided it was not as safe as I wanted.


IMHO changing a suppressor violates the design and is a safety hazard.
There are a lot of things I would fix or change. A suppressor is not one
of them.

A MOV parralell across the hot and neutral is pretty basic stuff and
doesn't get much simpler. But yes, if you don't know basic electronics
maybe you shouldn't do it.

For best device life you want the surge shared by the parallel MOVs.
Since MOVs are not precision devices that is not likely to happen unless
the MOVs are matched, as from the same batch. If one MOV takes most of
the surge hit (likely in a random pairing) you may not get much
advantage from the second MOV. The first MOV can die (shorted) while the
second MOV has much of its life left. It is basic electronics.

Putting in a larger rated MOV or several
MOV's in parallell is like what many people do by plugging a surge
suppressor into another surge protector for better protection. Or
plugging in a multi outlet strip with surge protection into a surge
protector and then to the outlet. Any dangers with those idea's too?

UL does not intend for them to be daisy chained. You are not likely to
find a manufacturer that would say it is OK (and it is probably
explicitly prohibited in the manufacturer instructions).

As above, daisy chaining does not necessarily work the way you expect.

You can get plug-in suppressors with high ratings for not much money. I
don't really see a reason to take chances on compromising surge
protection or fire protection.

--
bud--

On 3/15/2011 9:23 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/14/2011 10:11 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/14/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:45 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:26 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 3:43 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 1:50 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 2:18 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 9:24 AM, Tony Miklos wrote:
On 3/13/2011 8:39 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 3/13/2011 7:25 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:43 pm, The Daring

[Christmas Presents]