Hello,

Have had a pinhole leak this year, and also a few years back, so started
looking at my Copper house water plumbing a bit.

Noticed several areas with that bluish-green coating on it.

a. Is this indicative of a pinhole leak developing ?

b. what actually is this bluish-green "stuff" ?

c. Is it a reaction of the Copper with the outside air, and thus
developing on the pipe's outside, or it coming from the inside ?

d. Interesting in that I see it in the middle of a run, here and there,
so it's unlikely that it is caused by any soldering flux residual.

I do also see it at joints, and am wondering if it is caused, here, by a
soldering flux residual ?

Any thoughts on the bluish-green stuff, and pinhole leaks would be most
appreciated.

BTW: how common are pinhole leaks in older (around 35 yr old) homes ?

Thanks,
Bob

On Feb 25, 1:27*pm, Bob wrote:
Hello,

Have had a pinhole leak this year, and also a few years back, so started
looking at my Copper house water plumbing a bit.

Noticed several areas with that bluish-green coating on it.

a. Is this indicative of a pinhole leak developing ?

b. what actually is this bluish-green "stuff" ?

c. *Is it a reaction of the Copper with the outside air, and thus
developing on the pipe's outside, or it coming from the inside ?

d. *Interesting in that I see it in the middle of a run, here and there,
so it's unlikely that it is caused by any soldering flux residual.

I do also see it at joints, and am wondering if it is caused, here, by a
soldering flux residual ?

Any thoughts on the bluish-green stuff, and pinhole leaks would be most
appreciated.

BTW: *how common are pinhole leaks in older (around 35 yr old) homes ?

Thanks,
Bob


If you have had one pinhole leak recently you are probably destined to
have several more soon...

Can you describe where the pinhole leak occurred? Was it near a
fitting which turned a corner, that sort of leak often occurs because
of the velocity of the water at the corner eating away at the pipe
which is helped by very bad water chemistry or a plumber who used
way too much flux when installing the pipes...

a. It can be, or it can be indicative of a lot of humidity in the
area
where the exposed pipes live...

b. It depends on the chemistry involved, it could be patina, which
naturally occurs on un-coated copper like roofs and gutters, etc...
Or it could be specific chemicals namely: Copper(II) Chloride or
Copper(II) Carbonate depending on your local water chemistry...

c. It could be either or, if your pipes are leaking the process of
corrosion is a mechanical and chemical breakdown and that can
spread out on the exterior surface of the pipe after a pinhole
leak breaks through... Your pipes could have also formed this
color on the outside of them from sweating and having the water
condensation which formed on them chemically react with the
exposed copper...

d. Define "middle of the run" are you saying that it is nowhere
near a soldered fitting or joint? Remember the pipes are empty
when originally soldered, excessive amounts of flux would be
washed away and settle elsewhere in the piping upon filling the
system with water...

Sounds like your water chemistry needs to be analyized...

Not knowing whether you are on city provided water or a well
makes a difference... More chloride chemical compounds in
city water usually, more hard carbonate type compounds in
well water... You could also have an issue with sulfides/sulfates
which are reacting with your pipes...

Without knowing what thickness of copper pipe your house has
or your local water chemistry and the volume of water you are
using its not easy to nail down whether 35 years of use is good
or bad performance...

~~ Evan

On Feb 25, 6:27*pm, Bob wrote:
Hello,

Have had a pinhole leak this year, and also a few years back, so started
looking at my Copper house water plumbing a bit.

Noticed several areas with that bluish-green coating on it.

a. Is this indicative of a pinhole leak developing ?

b. what actually is this bluish-green "stuff" ?

c. *Is it a reaction of the Copper with the outside air, and thus
developing on the pipe's outside, or it coming from the inside ?

d. *Interesting in that I see it in the middle of a run, here and there,
so it's unlikely that it is caused by any soldering flux residual.

I do also see it at joints, and am wondering if it is caused, here, by a
soldering flux residual ?

Any thoughts on the bluish-green stuff, and pinhole leaks would be most
appreciated.

BTW: *how common are pinhole leaks in older (around 35 yr old) homes ?

Thanks,
Bob

The bluish green stuff is predominately copper carbonate and copper
hydroxide. Formed when oxygen , carbon dioxide and copper react.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_carbonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_hydroxide

A lot of the problems arise with copper pipe due to bad manufacturing
techniques. Traces of die metals and lubricants initiate the
corrosion process which is then self sustaining. Also if there is
galvanised iron elsewhere in your system (zinc) you get electrolytic
effects going on.
If the pipe is very thin, holes soon appear.

Some fluxes used in the soldering process have a similar effect.

Bob wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks for such good info.; really appreciate it.

Some clarifications that were requested:

Yes, it is Type M, apparently. The thin stuff.

Both pinholes developed in a horiz run, nowhere near a joint or elbow.

The house I replumbed developed it's pinhole leaks mid run. When I
replumbed I used only type L.

On Friday, February 25, 2011 11:27:08 AM UTC-7, Bob wrote:
Hello,

Have had a pinhole leak this year, and also a few years back, so started
looking at my Copper house water plumbing a bit.

Noticed several areas with that bluish-green coating on it.

a. Is this indicative of a pinhole leak developing ?

b. what actually is this bluish-green "stuff" ?

c. Is it a reaction of the Copper with the outside air, and thus
developing on the pipe's outside, or it coming from the inside ?

d. Interesting in that I see it in the middle of a run, here and there,
so it's unlikely that it is caused by any soldering flux residual.

I do also see it at joints, and am wondering if it is caused, here, by a
soldering flux residual ?

Any thoughts on the bluish-green stuff, and pinhole leaks would be most
appreciated.

BTW: how common are pinhole leaks in older (around 35 yr old) homes ?

Thanks,
Bob

I have started plumbing in small town with a pinhole problem when i go to replace 5 year old copper pipe with pex the pipe is so thin that i can not even cut it with copper cutters, pinholes are a problem, I have stopped using copper altogether Pex is so ugly if the municipality is supplying water that destroys pipes cant they be held responsible,( I have worked in towns with 35 year old copper and older the pipes are almost as good as the day they were put in. the lead solder they used back then oxidizes and causes leaks at joints. Aquarise (cpvc)seems like a good copper replacer

My best friends galvanized last near 70 years, he replaced it all with copper which is now failing after 35 years.....

looks like all his lines will need replaced again and he is over 80 and going to get quotes from plumbers......

he is not happy at all......

My understanding is that pinhole leaks in copper piping are the result of local water conditions.

The best thing for the OP to do is to phone around to his local plumbers and see whether they find an excessive number of pinhole leaks in copper in that area.

In my case, I had one pin hole leak about 35 years after the building was built, in 1995, and none since.

Embedding copper piping in concrete is supposed to cause pinhole leaks, and in my case, the pin hole leak was in a pipe that had concrete poured around it. Still, the pin hole didn't occur in the portion of the pipe surrounded by concrete, but in a spot an inch or two above the concrete. And, so far at least, the other hot and cold water pipes that had concrete poured around them haven't leaked.

So, I think it's all dependant on your local water conditions. ONE pinhole leak is not justification for replumbing your house cuz you're scared that next year there'll be a gazillion of them.

The only other leaks in copper pipes I've had have been bad solder joints, some of which only started leaking decades after the building was built. Normally, if a solder joint doesn't leak in the first few seconds after water pressure is applied, it won't leak for centuries. But, there's always the exception to every rule, and I've been unlucky enough to have experienced a few of those exceptions first hand.

Bob[44]:
The reason they tell you to clean up any flux residue after soldering is because flux contains a chemical called zinc chloride. Zinc chloride acts as an acid at soldering temperatures in that it dissolves any copper oxide that wasn't removed by sanding or brushing before fluxing. Zinc Chloride attackes copper oxide much more aggressively than it attacks the copper metal itself. But, it's important to note that zinc chloride's acidity only occurs at soldering temperatures. At room temperatures, zinc chloride has virtually no acidity at all, which is why you often see "acid based" soldering fluxes being sold in metal containers. If the zinc chloride was even mildly acidic at room temperatures, a metal container would corrode and be inappropriate to store that flux in. Ya gotta remember that for some DIY'ers, a 2 oz tin of paste flux is a "life time supply". Even residual flux left on the hot water supply piping is of little concern because the 140 degree F temperature that hot water supply piping might operate at is cool compared to the 300 degree F soldering temperatures that zinc chloride operates at. The only time I'd be a bit concerned about residual flux causing any damage is when we're talking about copper piping used in hot water heating systems that operate at closer to 200 degrees F, and even then the zinc chloride isn't going to do any serious damage to the copper. It'll to attack the copper until it's spent, and that will be the end of it's detrimental effect on the copper.

So, officially, you're supposed to clean off any flux residue after soldering so that the residual flux doesn't attack the copper. Unofficially, that residual flux is never going to do any real harm, not even to copper pipes in hot water heating systems.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 19:49:42 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

My best friends galvanized last near 70 years, he replaced it all with copper which is now failing after 35 years.....

looks like all his lines will need replaced again and he is over 80 and going to get quotes from plumbers......

he is not happy at all......

There's a lot of myth about copper being better then galvanized.
It mostly depends on water chemistry
In my area galvanized can go many years. Soft water.
I replaced most of the galvanized in my last house with new
galvanized. That was +60 years old.
No leaks, but the scale had built up too much, so the water flow to
upper floors had slowed too much.
When I wrenched the pipes open, I found the restrictions were confined
to horizontal runs, only at joints, and much worse around the water
heater. Since the horizontals were mineraled up near the joints, I
replaced everything in the basement from the service entry up to the
verticals that went to the upper floors.

Left all the stuff in the walls alone. They were wide open and not
rusty. I could see that from where they began in the basement, and in
the upper floor els and tees. Replaced all the stop valves up there.

This current house uses the same Lake Michigan water, and the
galvanized is 54 years old, with no issues at all. I know from simple
experience that the joints, especially near the water heater, are
getting mineraled up, but don't know how much.
We don't any issues with flow. Of course that sneaks up on you, since
it happens over time. But you know when it's unacceptable.

This is ranch house, the other was a 2-flat, so it got more water
flowing through the basement pipes. More water, more water heater
activity, more mineral build up.

Of course that's soft water, and apparently high quality galvanized.
Quality pipe is important, whether galvanized or copper.
I don't doubt that some water will quickly clog galvanized, and that
low quality or poorly installed galvanized will leak or rust.
Haven't run into that here.

I've also read that some water doesn't play nice with copper and will
cause pin-holing. Don't know much about copper.

If I get any issues in my current place, I'll just replace it with
galvanized, but might look to see if PEX meets code.
I sure don't see copper as the creme de la creme of piping.

The way I look at copper in my area, it was pushed by builders,
plumbers, and maybe some real estate agents. It adds no value, just
expense.
Not sure about the real estate agents, because I've done a lot of
house hunting here, seeing both copper and galvanized, and don't
recall an agent ever even mentioning it.
Most houses here built since the '60's have copper.
Since I don't do copper, I would always look at that as a demerit if I
even gave it any thought. But I don't remember even thinking about
it. Too many other elements of a house are more important.

Copper is totally unnecessary for areas supplied with Lake Michigan
water.

I see pin-holing happens with copper pipe, and nobody knows why.
The original question was asked almost 3 years ago, so it looks like
they still haven't figured it out.







This place is all galvanized

i will happily go all PEX, its freeze tolerant, easy to install, can be all home runs, no coonections or Ts in walls, plus no sne person will ever steal it....