.....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has nothing
to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those old "Godfather
I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could flush a bag of golf balls.
Some tankless toilets run off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here
comes the flood of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

On 2/3/2011 9:55 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has nothing
to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those old "Godfather
I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could flush a bag of golf balls.

I'll bet.

When I bought my toilet the sales girl referred to it as the "super
flusher". Recently, I heard the rest of the story. The boys with bling
had been coming in and asking for it that way. Word is the cops hate it!

Jeff


Some tankless toilets run off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here
comes the flood of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:55:33 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered.

Not quite. Some toilets and urinals have flushometers, that use water
pressure, common in nyc apartments, and maybe there are other
arrangements, but some other tank toilets are playing tricks on the
eye**.

Incoming water, AFAIK, has nothing
to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those old "Godfather
I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could flush a bag of golf balls.
Some tankless toilets run off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here
comes the flood of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

**Yes, I had a particularly loud toilet in a motel, so I took the lid
off and there was some metal chamber with a distorted dome top filling
the space. I guess it filled up the bladder with water pressure,
compressing some air inside, and used that to flush. It's a good
thing I was alone or it would have woken me every time it was used.

On 2/3/2011 9:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.


All of it.

On Feb 3, 8:55*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. *Incoming water, AFAIK, has nothing
to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. *I'll bet those old "Godfather
I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could flush a bag of golf balls.
Some tankless toilets run off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here
comes the flood of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

On Feb 3, 10:22*am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.
At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:59:37 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22*am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Yes, but is the maximum speed reached when the bottom of the tank is
an inch above the toilet, and the top of the water in the tank is
about 12 inches higher than that? If not, wouldn't having a higher
tank mean a speed closer to the maximum? Since the height of the
water averages about 7 or 10 times as much with the tank right on th
toilet.

I"ve used those toilets of course, but not since I started paying
attention to this sort of thing.

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

mm wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:59:37 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming
water pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some
dubious low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK,
has nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll
bet those old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high
tank could flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run
off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood
of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth
of the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Yes, but is the maximum speed reached when the bottom of the tank is
an inch above the toilet, and the top of the water in the tank is
about 12 inches higher than that? If not, wouldn't having a higher
tank mean a speed closer to the maximum? Since the height of the
water averages about 7 or 10 times as much with the tank right on th
toilet.

I"ve used those toilets of course, but not since I started paying
attention to this sort of thing.

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

Just like adding a length of hose reaching further down from a hole in the
bottom of a bucket drastically speeds up the water draining by its siphon
action. Then, the toilet restricts the flow, and the water backs up the tube,
increasing the pressure at the toilet.

Try flushing a toilet tank, then the same tank when it is not not attached to a
toilet. Does the water come out faster the second way? Then the toilet will
flush "harder" with the tank higher.

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:59:37 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming
water pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some
dubious low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK,
has nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll
bet those old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high
tank could flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run
off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood
of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth
of the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Yes, but is the maximum speed reached when the bottom of the tank is
an inch above the toilet, and the top of the water in the tank is
about 12 inches higher than that? If not, wouldn't having a higher
tank mean a speed closer to the maximum? Since the height of the
water averages about 7 or 10 times as much with the tank right on th
toilet.

I"ve used those toilets of course, but not since I started paying
attention to this sort of thing.

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

Just like adding a length of hose reaching further down from a hole in the
bottom of a bucket drastically speeds up the water draining by its siphon
action. Then, the toilet restricts the flow, and the water backs up the
tube,
increasing the pressure at the toilet.

Try flushing a toilet tank, then the same tank when it is not not attached
to a
toilet. Does the water come out faster the second way? Then the toilet
will
flush "harder" with the tank higher.

I'm with you because when I test flush my toilet, higher is better in terms
of getting it to flush with a minimum amount of water in the bucket. I
suspect that as toilet design improved, they found the ceiling high tank
didn't need to be quite so high to do the deed. In looking up the history
of toilets, there are tank type units that DO use pressure to flush:

Tank style with high-pressure or pressure-assist valve
This system utilizes mains water pressure to pre-pressurize a plastic tank
located inside of what otherwise appears to be the more typical ceramic
flush tank. A flush cycle begins each time a user flushes the bowl. After a
user flushes and the water in the pre-pressurized tank has finished emptying
into the bowl, the outlet valve in the plastic tank shuts. Then the high
pressure water from the city main refills the plastic tank. Inside the tank
is an air-filled balloon-like rubber diaphragm. As the higher-pressure mains
water enters the tank, the rubber diaphragm is also pressurized and shrinks
accordingly. During flushing, the compressed air inside of the diaphragm
pushes the water into the bowl at a flow rate which is significantly higher
than a tank style gravity-flow toilet. This system requires slightly less
water than a gravity-flow toilet. Pressure-assist toilets are sometimes
found in both private (single, multiple and lodging) bathrooms as well as
light commercial installations (such as offices). They seldom clog, but the
pressurized tanks require replacement about once every 10 years. They also
tend to be noisier - a concern for residential settings. The inner bowl
stays cleaner (in appearance) than gravity counterparts because of the
larger water surface area and the toilet's forceful flush. Newer toilets
from several companies such as Kohler that are pressure-assisted use 1.4 US
gallons (5.3 l) to 1.1 US gallons (4.2 l) per flush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet

Whether the "flushometer" toilet is truly a "tank type" toilet is open to
debate. You learn something new everyday. What surprised me was how old
the flush toilet is: circa 26th century BC. I wonder how many times
toilets have been flushed since then?

--

Bobby G.

On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

And a new job category is created: Commode customizing toilet tuner!

--
Bobby G.

On 2/3/2011 10:22 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

And a new job category is created: Commode customizing toilet tuner!

Yes. But it's a ****ty job!

Jeff

--
Bobby G.

On Feb 3, 7:47*pm, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 3, 10:22 am, *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert *wrote:
*wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. *There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

* I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

* *Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

Jeff

On Feb 4, 6:58*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff *wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, * *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert * *wrote:
* *wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. *There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

* *I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

* * Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

* *The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

* *What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

* Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

* *So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

* *Jeff

We not taking about depth of water in the tank...the question was the
6 ft high tanks adding some great amount of pressure to the flush.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 19:51:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:59:37 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming
water pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some
dubious low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK,
has nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll
bet those old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high
tank could flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run
off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood
of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth
of the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Yes, but is the maximum speed reached when the bottom of the tank is
an inch above the toilet, and the top of the water in the tank is
about 12 inches higher than that? If not, wouldn't having a higher
tank mean a speed closer to the maximum? Since the height of the
water averages about 7 or 10 times as much with the tank right on th
toilet.

I"ve used those toilets of course, but not since I started paying
attention to this sort of thing.

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

Just like adding a length of hose reaching further down from a hole in the
bottom of a bucket drastically speeds up the water draining by its siphon
action. Then, the toilet restricts the flow, and the water backs up the
tube,
increasing the pressure at the toilet.

Try flushing a toilet tank, then the same tank when it is not not attached
to a
toilet. Does the water come out faster the second way? Then the toilet
will
flush "harder" with the tank higher.

I'm with you because when I test flush my toilet, higher is better in terms
of getting it to flush with a minimum amount of water in the bucket. I
suspect that as toilet design improved, they found the ceiling high tank
didn't need to be quite so high to do the deed. In looking up the history
of toilets, there are tank type units that DO use pressure to flush:

Tank style with high-pressure or pressure-assist valve
This system utilizes mains water pressure to pre-pressurize a plastic tank
located inside of what otherwise appears to be the more typical ceramic
flush tank. A flush cycle begins each time a user flushes the bowl. After a
user flushes and the water in the pre-pressurized tank has finished emptying
into the bowl, the outlet valve in the plastic tank shuts. Then the high
pressure water from the city main refills the plastic tank. Inside the tank
is an air-filled balloon-like rubber diaphragm. As the higher-pressure mains
water enters the tank, the rubber diaphragm is also pressurized and shrinks
accordingly. During flushing, the compressed air inside of the diaphragm
pushes the water into the bowl at a flow rate which is significantly higher
than a tank style gravity-flow toilet. This system requires slightly less
water than a gravity-flow toilet. Pressure-assist toilets are sometimes
found in both private (single, multiple and lodging) bathrooms as well as
light commercial installations (such as offices). They seldom clog, but the
pressurized tanks require replacement about once every 10 years. They also
tend to be noisier - a concern for residential settings. The inner bowl
stays cleaner (in appearance) than gravity counterparts because of the
larger water surface area and the toilet's forceful flush. Newer toilets
from several companies such as Kohler that are pressure-assisted use 1.4 US
gallons (5.3 l) to 1.1 US gallons (4.2 l) per flush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet

Whether the "flushometer" toilet is truly a "tank type" toilet is open to
debate. You learn something new everyday. What surprised me was how old
the flush toilet is: circa 26th century BC. I wonder how many times
toilets have been flushed since then?

Very interesting webpage. I may have told this story before, but
there are a lot of new people here, and I have questions this time.

In NYC I read or was told that every building above 6 or 8? stories
had to have a water tank on the roof so that there would be adequate
water pressure. Often you can see the tank but often they build
simple walls around it. Sometimes the tanks are inside the top floor.
Tanks are expensive iiuc because the roof has to be made strong enough
to support them. (So a lot of buildings were/are? built just shy of
the tank requirement height.) I've always wondered about this since
NY, Brooklyn, and the Bronx** at least have hills, and I would think
the absolute height of the building would be more important than the
height relative to the street it's on. ??

**Staten Island has hills but not many tall buildings.

Buildings four stories or less can use normal water pressure. Not
sure what determines the water pressure. The opening of the water
tunnels from the Catskill mountains are much higher than 80 feet, I
think, so it must be something inside NYC. ??

An inordinately large number of buildings are 6 stories. Few are 5
because the water requirements for 5 are the same as for 6, and many
are only 6 because I think at 7 stories is when the water requirements
increase) Buildings more than 4 stories and less than the height that
requires a roof tank have to have two pumps and a water storage/
transit tank. One pump pumps the water into the tank against air
pressure from the air in the tank. The second pump adds air to the
tank, to replace that which is gradually absorbed by the water. In
normal circumstances the air pump would only run once every 3 to 8
days, for maybe 15 minutes or an hour. It was automatic too, although
I don't remember what turned it on.

I don't know if any tanks have rubber bladders. I sort of think not,
but certainly the book I read didn't illustrate one and my building
built in 1930 didn't have one.

My landlord was an immigrant from a fairly poor country in Europe. Or
at least he wasn't very knowledgable about stuff. He became a
"plumber" when there was a big demand for them in NYC when landlords
were no longer allowed to burn trash in furnaces not designed to do
that, and uncompacted trash could not be thrown away by apartment
buildings above a certain size. The trash compactors were water
powered, so he became a "plumber".

I'll give him credit that he wasnt' content to remain a plumber. By
the time I met him, he owned 3 or 4 buildings small to medium sized
apartment buildings, all but ours almost a slum, partly because he was
the landlord. Left unchecked, he might have turned our building into
a slum too, but there were too many tenants who could stop him. He
lived in Long Beach, Long Island, a fairly small area but one with
poor, middle, and almost rich neighborhoods. I didn't know and didn't
want to know which he lived in, because I didn't want his apparent
economic situation to influence my attitude towards him. I wanted it
to be just legal and contractual.

But most of the tenants didn't know about the water situation** and
only those on the 6th floor of the 6-story building really cared, plus
a few on the 5th floor (mine worked pretty well really, but once in a
while I had to flush two or three times. Mostly it annoyed me that he
didn't know how to do things right. Oh, and when I was taking a shower
and someone flushed the toilet, the shower became scarily hot. I think
that wouldn't have happened if there had been local air pressure to
boost the cold water flow. I switched to baths because of this.)

Anyhow, I think I once turned the air pump on and it seemed to be
working. I think he didn't understand what the air pump was for so
afaik he never used it -- the switch was always off -- and he had to
run the water pump all the time -- the switch was never on automatic.
So it ended up net-costing him money for electricity I think. I
photocopied a page from the book I mentioned and sent it to him with a
note, but I never heard back and I don't think it sank in.

**I only knew about the water because I spent time wandering around
the big basement and looking at everything. There was no stairway,
except outside, but the basement used to be available to everyone via
the elevators. Someone must have done something to annoy him there,
and when he put an electric-key-lock on the button that took the
elevator to the basement, I waited until the middle of the night, took
out the four big brass screws that held the brass control panel
escutcheon in place, and attached some lamp cord to each side of the
key switch, then ran the wire to just under the edge of the plate when
I put it back on. It wasn't visible unless your eye was below 40
inches, and even then it wasn't really noticeable. It stayed this way
for years, until some time after I moved out. I wonder if Alex figured
out who put it there!

The floor-button-current was low-voltage and after I did this, I could
hold a quarter or anything metal to the end of the lamp cord and
bypass the key-switch, and go to the basement. I didn't steal anything
or do anything bad. Mostly I needed this in case a fuse blew in the
middle of the night -- this happend fairly often since the 3-bedroom
apartment had only two fuses, both 15 amps, and both fed from a 20-amp
fuse in the basment. Now I'm sure this would be a violation of code,
but I think it was grandfathered in buildings of the era of mine.
Anyhow, the fuse in the basement blew more often than the ones in the
apartment, and I didn't want to wake the super or bother him after
5PM. I used to go down there to explore too.

If anyone asks, I'll tell you about my exploration of the furnace
room, a story in itself.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:22:02 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

So are you saying that the high tank doesn't help? Like Bob, I'm not
sure. If not, why did they use it? Why did the drug dealers buy
them?

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

And a new job category is created: Commode customizing toilet tuner!

I used to live upstairs from a pipe organ tuner. I should tell him
about this new opportunity.

On Fri, 4 Feb 2011 05:08:04 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 4, 6:58*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff *wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, * *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert * *wrote:
* *wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. *There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

* *I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

* * Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

* *The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

* *What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

* Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

* *So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

* *Jeff

We not taking about depth of water in the tank...the question was the
6 ft high tanks adding some great amount of pressure to the flush.

Pressure that would show itself in the speed of the water swirling in
the tank. Seems to me it's like trying to wash the grass cuttings
off the driveway with a garden hose at full blast, versus one whose
pressure is cut because the spigot opening is 3/4 closed.

We can get by with low tanks and low pressure because the toilets are
better designed, and don't usually need the greater pressure of the
higher tanks, isn't that it?

On 2/4/2011 8:08 AM, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 4, 6:58 am, Jeff wrote:
On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

Jeff

We not taking about depth of water in the tank...the question was the
6 ft high tanks adding some great amount of pressure to the flush.

I see your point.

It would seem to me that the initial pressure would be just of the
depth of the tank, your point. Your point also about having the valve at
the bottom of the pipe, which I don't believe they ever were.

Jeff

On Feb 4, 8:16*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/4/2011 8:08 AM, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 4, 6:58 am, Jeff *wrote:
On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff * *wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, * * *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert * * *wrote:
* * *wrote in message

. ..

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. *There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

* * I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

* * *Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

* * The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

* * What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

* *Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

* * So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

* * Jeff

We not taking about depth of water in the tank...the question was the
6 ft high tanks adding some great amount of pressure to the flush.

* *I see your point.

* *It would seem to me that the initial pressure would be just of the
depth of the tank, your point. Your point also about having the valve at
the bottom of the pipe, which I don't believe they ever were.

* *Jeff

Does anyone remember the tanks high on the wall that would fill slowly
and then flush the urinals at school? (timed by the fill)

On Feb 4, 4:58*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
On 2/4/2011 7:28 AM, Bob Villa wrote:





On Feb 3, 7:47 pm, Jeff *wrote:
On 2/3/2011 12:59 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, * *wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert * *wrote:
* *wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious
low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK, has
nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll bet those
old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high tank could
flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run off water
pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood of those that
have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth of
the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the speed of
the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Actually, the calculations are widely available as they are used in
irrigation, amongst other applications. *There is not a lot of head loss
for that large a pipe. Velocity being a factor of pressure, area and
resistance. The restrictions largely seem to be in the toilet itself,
not the water column.

* *I think the key is a direct path to flush the effluent rather filling
up the bowl. In a poorly designed toilet the bowl will fill and that
height of water in the bowl will push out the waste. Sort of like tuning
exhaust lines in a car.

* * Jeff

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

So...are you saying the height makes a difference in pressure or
not...I not quite sure??? Sounds like if you design it right it
doesn't make a difference!

* *The height absolutely makes a difference in pressure. In my "super
flusher", the tank fills all the way up, but it does not drain all the
way down (unless you hold down the handle). The minimum column height is
greater.

* *What I think is more important is how it drains. If it doesn't drain
well the bowl simply fills instead of flushing away. The weakest link is
in the draining, not the filling, although both need attention.

* Ive noticed that nothing sticks to my toilet bowl, so resistance is
less there also. You are trying to flush solids not water. The water
path in my "super flusher" is directly in line with the waste. That is a
direct flow, with the waste in the middle.

* *So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

* *Jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But really, when the flush valve opens, the pressure is not what
operates, it is the velocity of the water. The pressure is what gets
you the velocity. Thus it doesn't matter what the pressure in the
mains is, your tank height is all that counts. Even the "pressure
assists" operate the same way.

You don't have "pressure" unless the water is confined in something.

Harry K

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.



the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.



the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same
result.

Good point. When I was repairing my toilet's wall connection, I flushed it
by filling the tank with water from the bathtub. No connection to the water
supply at all.

--
Bobby G.

On Feb 4, 2:22*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.

the dip tube water distribuites thru the bowl rim.

note clogged bowl rims cause poor flushing

On Feb 4, 4:33*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 4, 2:22*pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.

You mean the over-flow tube...try turning off the supply and see how
much difference it makes. It's just a rinse of the bowl as long as the
water is filling.

On Feb 4, 5:44*pm, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 4, 4:33*pm, " wrote:





On Feb 4, 2:22*pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.

You mean the over-flow tube...try turning off the supply and see how
much difference it makes. It's just a rinse of the bowl as long as the
water is filling.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrong, try relocating the dip tube feed water for awhile...... into
the tank

solids wouldnt flush as well and the bowl water will tend to just
swirl around.....

thats why clogged bowl rim water causes fushing troubles.

the extra bowl rim water actually causes a bit of a wave helping the
flush.

a buddy of mine says i am a toiliteer. a degree in toilets

On Feb 4, 4:56*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 4, 5:44*pm, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 4, 4:33*pm, " wrote:

On Feb 4, 2:22*pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.

You mean the over-flow tube...try turning off the supply and see how
much difference it makes. It's just a rinse of the bowl as long as the
water is filling.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrong, try relocating the dip tube feed water for awhile...... into
the tank

solids wouldnt flush as well and the bowl water will tend to just
swirl around.....

thats why clogged bowl rim water causes fushing troubles.

the extra bowl rim water actually causes a bit of a wave helping the
flush.

a buddy of mine says i am a toiliteer. a degree in toilets

Now I remember what you're saying...there is a large opening right-
front under the rim that helps "swirl" the water. Ok Professor
Porcelain I'm with ya.

On 2/4/2011 4:33 PM, wrote:
On Feb 4, 2:22 pm, Steve wrote:
On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.


that's weird. I've never had those tubes going in the overflow and all
mine work just fine. Having that water shoot in there is mostly
unnecessary.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

So, what I am saying is that while more pressure is good, it is not
the answer. Good design is.

I think that's the reason tanks started out so high and gradually became
part of the unit - improvements in the design of the bowl that faciliated
the creation of a siphon where the weight of the water helps pull the waste
down.

--
Bobby G.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 19:51:14 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
mm wrote:
On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:59:37 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
wrote:

On Feb 3, 10:22 am, "chaniarts" wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 3, 8:55 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

...

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming
water pressure? I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some
dubious low flush annoy-o-lator.

Anything with a tank is gravity powered. Incoming water, AFAIK,
has nothing to do with flushing, just refilling the tank. I'll
bet those old "Godfather I" type toilets with the ceiling-high
tank could flush a bag of golf balls. Some tankless toilets run
off water pressure, but I've not seen them (here comes the flood
of those that have!) in anything but commercial structures.

--
Bobby G.

I doubt the height added pressure...it's not like it was the depth
of the water, it was just falling farther.

height does add pressure. there's that gravity thing increasing the
speed of the falling water.

The water can only fall at a certain speed though a given
diameter...no matter what height.

Yes, but is the maximum speed reached when the bottom of the tank is
an inch above the toilet, and the top of the water in the tank is
about 12 inches higher than that? If not, wouldn't having a higher
tank mean a speed closer to the maximum? Since the height of the
water averages about 7 or 10 times as much with the tank right on th
toilet.

I"ve used those toilets of course, but not since I started paying
attention to this sort of thing.

At least, that's how I see it. If there was a column of water and it
was release at the bottom...then you would see some pressure.

Just like adding a length of hose reaching further down from a hole in
the
bottom of a bucket drastically speeds up the water draining by its
siphon
action. Then, the toilet restricts the flow, and the water backs up the
tube,
increasing the pressure at the toilet.

Try flushing a toilet tank, then the same tank when it is not not
attached
to a
toilet. Does the water come out faster the second way? Then the toilet
will
flush "harder" with the tank higher.

I'm with you because when I test flush my toilet, higher is better in
terms
of getting it to flush with a minimum amount of water in the bucket. I
suspect that as toilet design improved, they found the ceiling high tank
didn't need to be quite so high to do the deed. In looking up the
history
of toilets, there are tank type units that DO use pressure to flush:

Tank style with high-pressure or pressure-assist valve
This system utilizes mains water pressure to pre-pressurize a plastic
tank
located inside of what otherwise appears to be the more typical ceramic
flush tank. A flush cycle begins each time a user flushes the bowl. After
a
user flushes and the water in the pre-pressurized tank has finished
emptying
into the bowl, the outlet valve in the plastic tank shuts. Then the high
pressure water from the city main refills the plastic tank. Inside the
tank
is an air-filled balloon-like rubber diaphragm. As the higher-pressure
mains
water enters the tank, the rubber diaphragm is also pressurized and
shrinks
accordingly. During flushing, the compressed air inside of the diaphragm
pushes the water into the bowl at a flow rate which is significantly
higher
than a tank style gravity-flow toilet. This system requires slightly less
water than a gravity-flow toilet. Pressure-assist toilets are sometimes
found in both private (single, multiple and lodging) bathrooms as well as
light commercial installations (such as offices). They seldom clog, but
the
pressurized tanks require replacement about once every 10 years. They
also
tend to be noisier - a concern for residential settings. The inner bowl
stays cleaner (in appearance) than gravity counterparts because of the
larger water surface area and the toilet's forceful flush. Newer toilets
from several companies such as Kohler that are pressure-assisted use 1.4
US
gallons (5.3 l) to 1.1 US gallons (4.2 l) per flush.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet

Whether the "flushometer" toilet is truly a "tank type" toilet is open to
debate. You learn something new everyday. What surprised me was how old
the flush toilet is: circa 26th century BC. I wonder how many times
toilets have been flushed since then?

Very interesting webpage. I may have told this story before, but
there are a lot of new people here, and I have questions this time.

In NYC I read or was told that every building above 6 or 8? stories
had to have a water tank on the roof so that there would be adequate
water pressure.

I think that a firecode thing more than anything else. As firetrucks hook
into the watermains the overall pressure drops. I could be wrong, though -
it's just a guess.

Often you can see the tank but often they build
simple walls around it. Sometimes the tanks are inside the top floor.
Tanks are expensive iiuc because the roof has to be made strong enough
to support them. (So a lot of buildings were/are? built just shy of
the tank requirement height.) I've always wondered about this since
NY, Brooklyn, and the Bronx** at least have hills, and I would think
the absolute height of the building would be more important than the
height relative to the street it's on. ??

I do know that more than one water tower in NYC has been converted to living
quarters. Whether that's legal or not, I don't know. I've watched them
replace old water towers on "Dirty Jobs" but that's about all I know about
them.

**Staten Island has hills but not many tall buildings.

Buildings four stories or less can use normal water pressure. Not
sure what determines the water pressure. The opening of the water
tunnels from the Catskill mountains are much higher than 80 feet, I
think, so it must be something inside NYC. ??

An inordinately large number of buildings are 6 stories. Few are 5
because the water requirements for 5 are the same as for 6, and many
are only 6 because I think at 7 stories is when the water requirements
increase) Buildings more than 4 stories and less than the height that
requires a roof tank have to have two pumps and a water storage/
transit tank. One pump pumps the water into the tank against air
pressure from the air in the tank. The second pump adds air to the
tank, to replace that which is gradually absorbed by the water. In
normal circumstances the air pump would only run once every 3 to 8
days, for maybe 15 minutes or an hour. It was automatic too, although
I don't remember what turned it on.

I don't know if any tanks have rubber bladders. I sort of think not,
but certainly the book I read didn't illustrate one and my building
built in 1930 didn't have one.

My landlord was an immigrant from a fairly poor country in Europe. Or
at least he wasn't very knowledgable about stuff. He became a
"plumber" when there was a big demand for them in NYC when landlords
were no longer allowed to burn trash in furnaces not designed to do
that, and uncompacted trash could not be thrown away by apartment
buildings above a certain size. The trash compactors were water
powered, so he became a "plumber".

I'll give him credit that he wasnt' content to remain a plumber. By
the time I met him, he owned 3 or 4 buildings small to medium sized
apartment buildings, all but ours almost a slum, partly because he was
the landlord. Left unchecked, he might have turned our building into
a slum too, but there were too many tenants who could stop him. He
lived in Long Beach, Long Island, a fairly small area but one with
poor, middle, and almost rich neighborhoods. I didn't know and didn't
want to know which he lived in, because I didn't want his apparent
economic situation to influence my attitude towards him. I wanted it
to be just legal and contractual.

But most of the tenants didn't know about the water situation** and
only those on the 6th floor of the 6-story building really cared, plus
a few on the 5th floor (mine worked pretty well really, but once in a
while I had to flush two or three times. Mostly it annoyed me that he
didn't know how to do things right. Oh, and when I was taking a shower
and someone flushed the toilet, the shower became scarily hot. I think
that wouldn't have happened if there had been local air pressure to
boost the cold water flow. I switched to baths because of this.)

Anyhow, I think I once turned the air pump on and it seemed to be
working. I think he didn't understand what the air pump was for so
afaik he never used it -- the switch was always off -- and he had to
run the water pump all the time -- the switch was never on automatic.
So it ended up net-costing him money for electricity I think. I
photocopied a page from the book I mentioned and sent it to him with a
note, but I never heard back and I don't think it sank in.

**I only knew about the water because I spent time wandering around
the big basement and looking at everything. There was no stairway,
except outside, but the basement used to be available to everyone via
the elevators. Someone must have done something to annoy him there,
and when he put an electric-key-lock on the button that took the
elevator to the basement, I waited until the middle of the night, took
out the four big brass screws that held the brass control panel
escutcheon in place, and attached some lamp cord to each side of the
key switch, then ran the wire to just under the edge of the plate when
I put it back on. It wasn't visible unless your eye was below 40
inches, and even then it wasn't really noticeable. It stayed this way
for years, until some time after I moved out. I wonder if Alex figured
out who put it there!

The floor-button-current was low-voltage and after I did this, I could
hold a quarter or anything metal to the end of the lamp cord and
bypass the key-switch, and go to the basement. I didn't steal anything
or do anything bad. Mostly I needed this in case a fuse blew in the
middle of the night -- this happend fairly often since the 3-bedroom
apartment had only two fuses, both 15 amps, and both fed from a 20-amp
fuse in the basment. Now I'm sure this would be a violation of code,
but I think it was grandfathered in buildings of the era of mine.
Anyhow, the fuse in the basement blew more often than the ones in the
apartment, and I didn't want to wake the super or bother him after
5PM. I used to go down there to explore too.

If anyone asks, I'll tell you about my exploration of the furnace
room, a story in itself.

Sure. Even it if puts my reputation as the group's most verbose poster at
risk. (-: Sorry I can't answer your other questions. I am sure we have
someone here who knows.

--
Bobby G.

On Feb 4, 12:25*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message

... On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same

result.

Good point. *When I was repairing my toilet's wall connection, I flushed it
by filling the tank with water from the bathtub. *No connection to the water
supply at all.

--
Bobby G.

You can even flush it by pouring the water directly in the bowl. It
won't be as effective as there is no "jet" directed into the siphon.

Harry K

On Feb 4, 11:27*pm, Harry K wrote:
On Feb 4, 12:25*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:





"Steve Barker" wrote in message

m... On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same

result.

Good point. *When I was repairing my toilet's wall connection, I flushed it
by filling the tank with water from the bathtub. *No connection to the water
supply at all.

--
Bobby G.

You can even flush it by pouring the water directly in the bowl. *It
won't be as effective as there is no "jet" directed into the siphon.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

to test a toilet that fails to flush well use a bucket

If the toilet flushes solids wel with a bucket the interior toilet
passages are the problem

If a bucket fails to flush solids the drain is the problem.

toilet 101

wrote in message
...
On Feb 4, 2:22 pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.
===========

I'm thinking this is the right answer, and here's why. A couple of weeks
ago, I was at a B&B with the girlfriend, and this place used a well & pump
for its water. We were trying to fill the jacuzzi and noticed that even at
peak pressure, the water flow was pathetic. It took almost 2 hours to fill
the tub. Then, we discovered that the toilet was seriously weak, to the
point of "Aw sonofabitch - where's the damn plunger, or a bucket." We
mentioned this to the owner, who said "What?? Nobody else has mentioned this
to me. Thank you!"

She's managing the place herself, so she'll be counting on a plumber to
figure out the situation. Two other toilets in the building were equally
weak. Weak, meaning you flush it once and if you're an experienced
homeowner, you think "Uh oh. This is going to be trouble sometime in the
next 24 hours." I didn't know what to tell her, but my first thought was
that since they're all old style toilets, but not ancient, they couldn't ALL
be stuffed, out of adjustment, or otherwise broken at the same time. Had to
be the lame water pressure. But I don't know enough about well & pump
systems.

If the water pressure's lame on a well & pump system, what do you do to
remedy the situation? Some sort of tank?

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

If the water pressure's lame on a well & pump system, what do you do to
remedy the situation? Some sort of tank?

Depends on the system. The well could feed a gravity tank, storage tank with a
booster pump that supplies the house, directly supply the house if if's a
shallow enough well, or have a small bladder tank. Each has it's own set of
potential problems to troubleshoot.

On Feb 5, 8:45*am, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Feb 4, 2:22 pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.
===========

I'm thinking this is the right answer, and here's why. A couple of weeks
ago, I was at a B&B with the girlfriend, and this place used a well & pump
for its water. We were trying to fill the jacuzzi and noticed that even at
peak pressure, the water flow was pathetic. It took almost 2 hours to fill
the tub. Then, we discovered that the toilet was seriously weak, to the
point of "Aw sonofabitch - where's the damn plunger, or a bucket." We
mentioned this to the owner, who said "What?? Nobody else has mentioned this
to me. Thank you!"

She's managing the place herself, so she'll be counting on a plumber to
figure out the situation. Two other toilets in the building were equally
weak. Weak, meaning you flush it once and if you're an experienced
homeowner, you think "Uh oh. This is going to be trouble sometime in the
next 24 hours." I didn't know what to tell her, but my first thought was
that since they're all old style toilets, but not ancient, they couldn't ALL
be stuffed, out of adjustment, or otherwise broken at the same time. Had to
be the lame water pressure. But I don't know enough about well & pump
systems.

If the water pressure's lame on a well & pump system, what do you do to
remedy the situation? Some sort of tank?

If they had a submersible pump and pressure tank...they (she) would
have plenty of pressure. It may be a shallow well pump or above ground
pump that has to pump water down the pipe to push the water up an
inner pipe (also limits the volume of water).
I don't know the proper terms for these wells...but I have seen them
in the "old days".

On Feb 4, 4:56*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 4, 5:44*pm, Bob Villa wrote:



On Feb 4, 4:33*pm, " wrote:

On Feb 4, 2:22*pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. *you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.

You mean the over-flow tube...try turning off the supply and see how
much difference it makes. It's just a rinse of the bowl as long as the
water is filling.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrong, try relocating the dip tube feed water for awhile...... into
the tank

solids wouldnt flush as well and the bowl water will tend to just
swirl around.....

thats why clogged bowl rim water causes fushing troubles.

the extra bowl rim water actually causes a bit of a wave helping the
flush.

a buddy of mine says i am a toiliteer. a degree in toilets

I have yet to find a diagram that calls anything a "dip tube".

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6...agram05264.jpg

On Feb 5, 7:33*am, Bob Villa wrote:
On Feb 5, 8:45*am, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Feb 4, 2:22 pm, Steve Barker wrote:

On 2/3/2011 8:24 AM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

....comes from the water stored in the tank, vs the incoming water
pressure?
I'm referring to an old style toilet, not some dubious low flush
annoy-o-lator.

the incoming water has NO effect on the flush in a convention tank type
toilet. you can turn the incoming valve off and still get the same result.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

NOT TRUE, the water going into the dip tube helps create the wave that
flushes the bowl.
===========

I'm thinking this is the right answer, and here's why. A couple of weeks
ago, I was at a B&B with the girlfriend, and this place used a well & pump
for its water. We were trying to fill the jacuzzi and noticed that even at
peak pressure, the water flow was pathetic. It took almost 2 hours to fill
the tub. Then, we discovered that the toilet was seriously weak, to the
point of "Aw sonofabitch - where's the damn plunger, or a bucket." We
mentioned this to the owner, who said "What?? Nobody else has mentioned this
to me. Thank you!"

She's managing the place herself, so she'll be counting on a plumber to
figure out the situation. Two other toilets in the building were equally
weak. Weak, meaning you flush it once and if you're an experienced
homeowner, you think "Uh oh. This is going to be trouble sometime in the
next 24 hours." I didn't know what to tell her, but my first thought was
that since they're all old style toilets, but not ancient, they couldn't ALL
be stuffed, out of adjustment, or otherwise broken at the same time. Had to
be the lame water pressure. But I don't know enough about well & pump
systems.

If the water pressure's lame on a well & pump system, what do you do to
remedy the situation? Some sort of tank?

If they had a submersible pump and pressure tank...they (she) would
have plenty of pressure. It may be a shallow well pump or above ground
pump that has to pump water down the pipe to push the water up an
inner pipe (also limits the volume of water).
I don't know the proper terms for these wells...but I have seen them
in the "old days".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a "jet pump" system. A lot of shallow well pumps can be
converted to one.

Harry K