My last heating bill was excessively high and I am trying to figure
out what is going on.

I have two heat pumps. The first unit is a 3 ton Goodman (seer 13)
that produced a delta T (air duct outlet temperature-inlet duct
temperature) of 20 when the outside temperature was 52. The second
unit is a 2.5 ton Goodman (seer 13) which produced a delta T of 24.

Do these number make sense. What temperature rise should I expect at
this outdoor temperature? I would expect the units to be efficent
under these conditions. I am well aware that at low temperatures the
efficentcy drops.

Thanks for the help.

noname87 wrote:
My last heating bill was excessively high and I am trying to figure
out what is going on.

I have two heat pumps. The first unit is a 3 ton Goodman (seer 13)
that produced a delta T (air duct outlet temperature-inlet duct
temperature) of 20 when the outside temperature was 52. The second
unit is a 2.5 ton Goodman (seer 13) which produced a delta T of 24.

Do these number make sense. What temperature rise should I expect at
this outdoor temperature? I would expect the units to be efficent
under these conditions. I am well aware that at low temperatures the
efficentcy drops.

Thanks for the help.

I am sure you will get some useful answers but for my part, don't
troubleshoot the damn thing just shoot it. Heat pumps are the power
companies answer to low winter time power usage.

I would love to but I really don't have an option. In theory, heat
pumps worrk well above 40 and for cooling. The problem is when you
have cold temperature. Below 30, the meter starts going crazy.

My area does not have gas. Propane might be an option but the
conversion cost would be high. I don't think is available. Even if it
was oil isn't cheap. In my area it is heat pumps or gas if you have
it. Some have hybid system that swith from heat pump to gas when
necesary.


I am sure you will get some useful answers but for my part, don't
troubleshoot the damn thing just shoot it. *Heat pumps are the power
companies answer to low winter time power usage.

On Jan 19, 5:26*pm, noname87 wrote:
I would love to but I really don't have an option. In theory, heat
pumps worrk well above 40 and for cooling. The problem is when you
have cold temperature. Below 30, the meter starts going crazy.

My area does not have gas. Propane might be an option but the
conversion cost would be high. I don't think is available. Even if it
was oil isn't cheap. In my area it is heat pumps or gas if you have
it. Some have hybid system that swith from heat pump to gas when
necesary.



We are both in the same boat. I also have a heat pump and would love
to have some other option, any option. If I am ever forced to go with
another heat pump I will give very serious consideration of using a
buried exterior coil system even if the initial cost is substantially
higher. Trying to extract cool for hot air or heat from cold air is
just short of foolish. At least with gas heating you are getting the
maximum efficiency. The efficiency range for heat pumps is just too
narrow to be effective except in temperate climates like Southern
California.



I am sure you will get some useful answers but for my part, don't
troubleshoot the damn thing just shoot it. *Heat pumps are the power
companies answer to low winter time power usage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"noname87" wrote in message
...
I would love to but I really don't have an option. In theory, heat
pumps worrk well above 40 and for cooling. The problem is when you
have cold temperature. Below 30, the meter starts going crazy.

My area does not have gas. Propane might be an option but the
conversion cost would be high. I don't think is available. Even if it
was oil isn't cheap. In my area it is heat pumps or gas if you have
it. Some have hybid system that swith from heat pump to gas when
necesary.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'll ask you what I asked someone here who posted about their heat pump last
week:

What temp do you set your thermostats to ? If above 68, consider lowering
to 68.

Do you have digital, programmable thermostats with temperature recovery?

If no, do you manually adjust the temp setting?

If yes, do you set the temp lower for overnight and when at work ? Consider
lowering a few degrees above the higher setting.

When the outside temp falls below 20F and you notice the aux heat kick on
frequently, do you change the heat mode from normal to Emergency Heat ? If
not, you should until the outside temp rises back to 20 and climbing, or
when you have to leave for work.

Last week's poster indicated their temp is set to 73 !!! You want that
warm, you pay.

On Jan 19, 2:32*pm, noname87 wrote:
My last heating bill was excessively high and I am trying to figure
out what is going on.

I have two heat pumps. The first unit is a 3 ton Goodman (seer 13)
that produced a delta T (air duct outlet temperature-inlet duct
temperature) of 20 when the outside temperature was 52. The second
unit is a 2.5 ton Goodman (seer 13) which produced a delta T of 24.

Do these number make sense. What temperature rise should I expect at
this outdoor temperature? I would expect the units to be efficent
under these conditions. I am well aware that at low temperatures the
efficentcy drops.

Thanks for the help.


I have a heat pump but I don't know much about a solution for you. I
am curious about what you consider excessively high. I get antsy when
my electric bill gets over $200 in the winter but if that was my only
heating cost it would be excessively low.

-C-

.. What temperature rise should I expect at
this outdoor temperature? I would expect the units to be efficent
under these conditions. I am well aware that at low temperatures the
efficentcy drops.


Post the model numbers for the Goodmans. I may be available to find the
specs for Delta T at a given OD temp.

To answer some of the questions:

The main unit (GSH130361AO) is set at 68 during the day and set back
to 66 at night. I have a programable thermostat (Honeywell RTH7600D)
which does have a recovery mode. At low temperatures the Aux heat does
come on. The compressor is roughly 3 years old and the air handler is
1 year old. I have not try running on emergency heat only at low
temperatures.

The second unit (GSH130301AB) is set at 66 during the day and 64 at
night. Unit is three years old. Same thermostat as above.

The house is roughly 2400 sqft and with cathedral ceilings in the
living room, master bedroom and master bath. House was rebuilt in 2007
so insulation is at least average. Windows are thermopane.
Unfortunately the previous owner (we move here last year) didn't seem
too concern about enery cost. I do have excessive windows on the side
of the house that faces west. Great during the day. Poor at night.

Our bill lasy month was higher than the previous owners worst bill by
20%. What has me concern is that it was significantly higher than last
year when the main unit failed and we were running on emergency heat
for at leatst 2 weeks. By high, it was over $700. We do heat all day
since my daughter is home schooled. This has been one of the coldest
winter in the last 20 years. However so was last year. Our cooling
bill was significantely lower than the previous own by about 30% and
it was a hot summer.

I am trying to get a HVAC technivian to come out to check things out.
I have also scheduled an energy audit. I know I have some leaky door
seals and too many windows but I believe something else is going on.
Since moving in I replaced most of the light bulbs with CF and drop
the hot water temperature from 150 to 125. Needless to say, the heat
is driving the bill.

"noname87" wrote in message
...
To answer some of the questions:

The main unit (GSH130361AO) is set at 68 during the day and set back
to 66 at night. I have a programable thermostat (Honeywell RTH7600D)
which does have a recovery mode. At low temperatures the Aux heat does
come on. The compressor is roughly 3 years old and the air handler is
1 year old. I have not try running on emergency heat only at low
temperatures.

The second unit (GSH130301AB) is set at 66 during the day and 64 at
night. Unit is three years old. Same thermostat as above.


Here are the heating performance tables for the heat pump units that Goodman
lists. They are specific to the particular condensing (outside) unit and the
indoor coil/air handler.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17.../Scan10295.jpg

Thank you. Did this come from their web site?

On Jan 19, 11:52*pm, "SRN" wrote:
"noname87" wrote in message

...

To answer some of the questions:

The main unit (GSH130361AO) is set at 68 during the day and set back
to 66 at night. I have a programable thermostat (Honeywell RTH7600D)
which does have a recovery mode. At low temperatures the Aux heat does
come on. The compressor is roughly 3 years old and the air handler is
1 year old. I have not try running on emergency heat only at low
temperatures.

The second unit (GSH130301AB) is set at 66 during the day and 64 at
night. Unit is three years old. Same thermostat as above.

Here are the heating performance tables for the heat pump units that Goodman
lists. They are specific to the particular condensing (outside) unit and the
indoor coil/air handler.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17.../Scan10295.jpg

On Jan 19, 10:43*pm, noname87 wrote:
To answer some of the questions:

The main unit (GSH130361AO) is set at 68 during the day and set back
to 66 at night. I have a programable thermostat (Honeywell RTH7600D)
which does have a recovery mode. At low temperatures the Aux heat does
come on. The compressor is roughly 3 years old and the air handler is
1 year old. I have not try running on emergency heat only at low
temperatures.

The second unit (GSH130301AB) is set at 66 during the day and 64 at
night. Unit is three years old. Same thermostat as above.

The house is roughly 2400 sqft and with cathedral *ceilings in the
living room, master bedroom and master bath. House was rebuilt in 2007
so insulation is at least average. Windows are thermopane.
Unfortunately the previous owner (we move here last year) didn't seem
too concern about enery cost. I do have excessive windows on the side
of the house that faces west. Great during the day. Poor at night.

Our bill lasy month was higher than the previous owners worst bill by
20%. What has me concern is that it was significantly higher than last
year when the main unit failed and we were running on emergency heat
for at leatst 2 weeks. By high, it was over $700. We do heat all day
since my daughter is home schooled. This has been one of the coldest
winter in the last 20 years. However so was last year. Our cooling
bill was significantely lower than the previous own by about 30% and
it was a hot summer.

I am trying to get a HVAC technivian to come out to check things out.
I have also scheduled an energy audit. I know I have some leaky door
seals and too many windows but I believe something else is going on.
Since moving in I replaced most of the light bulbs with CF and drop
the hot water temperature from 150 to 125. Needless to say, the heat
is driving the bill.

Sounds like you know you need to keep an eye on it since going into
emergency heat is expensive. Excessive cold temps will cause it to
run the aux strips as well. When they are running your cost is going
to be high. You did not post where you are?

Propane is not nearly as cheap as natural gas so there might not be a
lot of savings in that direction. It's certainly cheaper than
resistive electric though and in more northern areas heat pumps with
backup propane is probably the most economical solution. The heat
pump runs in moderate outdoor temps and the propane kicks in when the
temps get more extreme. But replacing your existing air handlers with
propane furnaces will not be cheap. That assuming that your current
heat pumps can be adapted to the dual mode.

Geothermal heat pumps are also very econimcal to run but they have not
been popular enough to drive the cost down. It's also difficult to
find people that can install and maintain them properly.

If you have a lot of windows I suggest you get some layers to put on
them. Folding blinds and heavy draps that are made with backing.
When it's cold outside close both. Check for airleaks and add some of
that self adhesive foam where windows don't close completely. Usually
you can add a strip at the top and that will lower the entire window
unit a little making the bottom seal tighter. Check the attic
insulation as well. Adding insulation in the attic is cheap and easy
to do.

On Jan 19, 7:24*pm, BobR wrote:
On Jan 19, 5:26*pm, noname87 wrote:

I would love to but I really don't have an option. In theory, heat
pumps worrk well above 40 and for cooling. The problem is when you
have cold temperature. Below 30, the meter starts going crazy.

My area does not have gas. Propane might be an option but the
conversion cost would be high. I don't think is available. Even if it
was oil isn't cheap. In my area it is heat pumps or gas if you have
it. Some have hybid system that swith from heat pump to gas when
necesary.

We are both in the same boat. *I also have a heat pump and would love
to have some other option, any option. *If I am ever forced to go with
another heat pump I will give very serious consideration of using a
buried exterior coil system even if the initial cost is substantially
higher. *Trying to extract cool for hot air or heat from cold air is
just short of foolish. *At least with gas heating you are getting the
maximum efficiency. *The efficiency range for heat pumps is just too
narrow to be effective except in temperate climates like Southern
California.



I am sure you will get some useful answers but for my part, don't
troubleshoot the damn thing just shoot it. *Heat pumps are the power
companies answer to low winter time power usage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I gave a thought of a trench system. That should not cost all that
must either.
Dig a hole, lay pipe.

I have gas heat. My brother has oil, and since the oil went up, he
uses electric
which seems cheaper than oil. I get annoyed when my electric bill goes
about $60 a month. I use the air conditioner in summer which does not
seem to affect the bill much. Figure a trench should stay about 50
degrees year round.
heat pumps usually shut off and go strictly resistive heat much below
40.

greg

My one experience with heat pumps. Friend of mine has two
for his house. I used some refrigeration coil cleaner, on
the outdoor units. Summer time. Dropped the amperage
noticably. When spring arrives, have the outdoor units
cleaned. Coil cleaner, garden hose, and let the cleaner
stuff "work" three to five minutes before rinsing off. Needs
three washes, at the minimum.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"noname87" wrote in message
...
My last heating bill was excessively high and I am trying to
figure
out what is going on.

I have two heat pumps. The first unit is a 3 ton Goodman
(seer 13)
that produced a delta T (air duct outlet temperature-inlet
duct
temperature) of 20 when the outside temperature was 52. The
second
unit is a 2.5 ton Goodman (seer 13) which produced a delta T
of 24.

Do these number make sense. What temperature rise should I
expect at
this outdoor temperature? I would expect the units to be
efficent
under these conditions. I am well aware that at low
temperatures the
efficentcy drops.

Thanks for the help.

On Jan 20, 10:17*am, zek wrote:
On Jan 19, 7:24*pm, BobR wrote:





On Jan 19, 5:26*pm, noname87 wrote:

I would love to but I really don't have an option. In theory, heat
pumps worrk well above 40 and for cooling. The problem is when you
have cold temperature. Below 30, the meter starts going crazy.

My area does not have gas. Propane might be an option but the
conversion cost would be high. I don't think is available. Even if it
was oil isn't cheap. In my area it is heat pumps or gas if you have
it. Some have hybid system that swith from heat pump to gas when
necesary.

We are both in the same boat. *I also have a heat pump and would love
to have some other option, any option. *If I am ever forced to go with
another heat pump I will give very serious consideration of using a
buried exterior coil system even if the initial cost is substantially
higher. *Trying to extract cool for hot air or heat from cold air is
just short of foolish. *At least with gas heating you are getting the
maximum efficiency. *The efficiency range for heat pumps is just too
narrow to be effective except in temperate climates like Southern
California.

I am sure you will get some useful answers but for my part, don't
troubleshoot the damn thing just shoot it. *Heat pumps are the power
companies answer to low winter time power usage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I gave a thought of a trench system. That should not cost all that
must either.
Dig a hole, lay pipe.

I have gas heat. My brother has oil, and since the oil went up, he
uses electric
which seems cheaper than oil. I get annoyed when my electric bill goes
about $60 a month. I use the air conditioner in summer which does not
seem to affect the bill much. Figure a trench should stay about 50
degrees year round.
heat pumps usually shut off and go strictly resistive heat much below
40.

greg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You need hundreds of feet of trench and it needs to be pretty far down
to escape the temp variations of the surface soil. Several feet to as
far as 8 feet deep depending on your location. Figure a hundred feet
a ton as a swag for length. If you own your own trencher and have a
decent field in the back of your house, ok. Otherwise it's cheaper
and easier to just have a well driller put a ground loop or two in for
you.

Thank you. Did this come from their web site?

Yes, the dealer side of their website.

On Jan 19, 11:52 pm, "SRN" wrote:
"noname87" wrote in message

...

To answer some of the questions:

The main unit (GSH130361AO) is set at 68 during the day and set back
to 66 at night. I have a programable thermostat (Honeywell RTH7600D)
which does have a recovery mode. At low temperatures the Aux heat does
come on. The compressor is roughly 3 years old and the air handler is
1 year old. I have not try running on emergency heat only at low
temperatures.

The second unit (GSH130301AB) is set at 66 during the day and 64 at
night. Unit is three years old. Same thermostat as above.

Here are the heating performance tables for the heat pump units that
Goodman
lists. They are specific to the particular condensing (outside) unit and
the
indoor coil/air handler.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17.../Scan10295.jpg

When the outside temp falls below 20F and you notice the aux heat kick on
frequently, do you change the heat mode from normal to Emergency Heat ? *If
not, you should until the outside temp rises back to 20 and climbing, or
when you have to leave for work.


What is the rational behind this? Granted at low temperatures the heat
oump is produce very little but I thought I read that even at that
point it is cheaper than pure electric resistive heat. Based on my
daily monitoring, it looks like my sysyem works well until the night
temperature falls to about 25.

When the outside temp falls below 20F and you notice the aux heat kick on
frequently, do you change the heat mode from normal to Emergency Heat ? If
not, you should until the outside temp rises back to 20 and climbing, or
when you have to leave for work.


What is the rational behind this? Granted at low temperatures the
heat
pump produces very little but I thought I read that even at that
point it is cheaper than pure electric resistive heat. Based on my
daily monitoring, it looks like my sysyem works well until the night
temperature falls to about 25.

On Jan 21, 6:24*pm, noname87 wrote:
When the outside temp falls below 20F and you notice the aux heat kick on
frequently, do you change the heat mode from normal to Emergency Heat ? *If
not, you should until the outside temp rises back to 20 and climbing, or
when you have to leave for work.

What is the rational behind this? Granted at low temperatures the
heat
pump produces very little but I thought I read that even at that
point it is cheaper than pure electric resistive heat. Based on my
daily monitoring, it looks like my sysyem works well until the night
temperature falls to about 25.

Sounds about right but your unit is also working real hard. the wear
and tear also has to be taken into account. When my unit had electric
strips for backup heat the change over point was about 32 degrees when
I went to NG backup they recccomend 40 for best economy. I understand
we may be getting net metering soon. If this happens the night
electric rates may be only about 3 cents per KWh. In that case using
heat stripps would be a bargain at night.

"noname87" wrote in message
...


When the outside temp falls below 20F and you notice the aux heat kick on
frequently, do you change the heat mode from normal to Emergency Heat ?
If
not, you should until the outside temp rises back to 20 and climbing, or
when you have to leave for work.


What is the rational behind this? Granted at low temperatures the
heat
pump produces very little but I thought I read that even at that
point it is cheaper than pure electric resistive heat. Based on my
daily monitoring, it looks like my sysyem works well until the night
temperature falls to about 25.

If you look at the Goodman Heating Data tables I sent you you can see that
the COP (coefficient of performance) is at least 2.2 or more even at 25° F.
outside temp. So the heat pump is still electrically efficient, meaning
you're getting 2.2 times the heat with the heat pump versus resistance
heating. But you're getting a lot less total heat from the HP because the
thermal efficiency goes down as outside temps go down, and the electric
resistance supplemental heat is quite expensive depending on where you live
and your utility rates. Folks up north usually have a dual fuel system where
the HP shuts off at say 30°F. (varies) and the furnace turns on to provide
the heat at the colders temps (they don't run at the same time).

Thank you explaing the COP numbers. The data you sent explained a lot.
What started this whole disscussion was that my last bill was $200
higher than my bill for last January. During January of last year, my
main heat pump failed and I was running on 100% resistive heat for at
least half a month if not longer. Prior to the repair, I was unable to
get the house up to temperature.

I am in NC (not in the mountains).

If you look at the Goodman Heating Data tables I sent you you can see that
the COP (coefficient of performance) is at least 2.2 or more even at 25° F.
outside temp. So the heat pump is still electrically efficient, meaning
you're getting 2.2 times the heat with the heat pump versus resistance
heating. But you're getting a lot less total heat from the HP because the
thermal efficiency goes down as outside temps go down, and the electric
resistance supplemental heat is quite expensive depending on where you live
and your utility rates. Folks up north usually have a dual fuel system where
the HP shuts off at say 30°F. (varies) and the furnace turns on to provide
the heat at the colders temps (they don't run at the same time).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was wondering I could change the settings on my thermostat to "heat
pump without AUX heating". This should prevent the thermostat from
ever turning on the emergency heat. This would allow me to set the
temperatur at night lower and allow the heat pump to bring the
temperature up in the morning without turning on the AUX heat. I would
only do this when the outside temperatures are above 40. Currently, I
have only a minor setback at night because the thermostat calls for
AUX heat if if sees the teperature difference greater than 1 or 2
degrees which happens if I set the temperature back more than 2
degrees at night.

On Jan 24, 2:47*pm, noname87 wrote:
I was wondering I could change the settings on my thermostat to "heat
pump without AUX heating". This should prevent the thermostat from
ever turning on the emergency heat. This would allow me to set the
temperatur at night lower and allow the heat pump to bring the
temperature up in the morning without turning on the AUX heat. I would
only do this when the outside temperatures are above 40. Currently, I
have only a minor setback at night because the thermostat calls for
AUX heat if if sees the teperature difference greater than 1 or 2
degrees which happens if I set the temperature back more than 2
degrees at night.

The recovery mode on your thermostat should be keeping it from using
the resistive heat when it brings the temp backup. There might be
some programmable parameters on it you need to change so it knows how
long to try before it lets the aux heat kick in. You could also start
the ramp up "manually" with several small programmed increases during
the early morning. You might have to start pretty far in advance.

On Jan 24, 3:38*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jan 24, 2:47*pm, noname87 wrote:

I was wondering I could change the settings on my thermostat to "heat
pump without AUX heating". This should prevent the thermostat from
ever turning on the emergency heat. This would allow me to set the
temperatur at night lower and allow the heat pump to bring the
temperature up in the morning without turning on the AUX heat. I would
only do this when the outside temperatures are above 40. Currently, I
have only a minor setback at night because the thermostat calls for
AUX heat if if sees the teperature difference greater than 1 or 2
degrees which happens if I set the temperature back more than 2
degrees at night.

The recovery mode on your thermostat should be keeping it from using
the resistive heat when it brings the temp backup. *There might be
some programmable parameters on it you need to change so it knows how
long to try before it lets the aux heat kick in. *You could also start
the ramp up "manually" with several small programmed increases during
the early morning. *You might have to start pretty far in advance.

Also thermostats differ in how programmable and flexible they are.
Take a
look at a Honeywell VisonPro TH8320 installation manual as an example.

http://www.wmitechnologies.com/pdfs/vision-pro.pdf

IMO, SRN's posts accurately describe what's going on. As he pointed
out,
while a heat pump's efficiency drops as the outdoor temp declines,
even
at 25 deg, a decent one is still producing over 2X the heat you'd get
using resistance
heat. So, the advice to go to 100% aux heat makes no sense to me,
unless
you want an even higher bill.

IMO, SRN's posts accurately describe what's going on. * As he pointed
out,
while a heat pump's efficiency drops as the outdoor temp declines,
even
at 25 deg, a decent one is still *producing over 2X the heat you'd get
using resistance
heat. * So, the advice to go to 100% aux heat makes no sense to me,
unless
you want an even higher bill.

While I agree with you in theory but at 25 deg F, not in practice.

In theory, the heat pump will cost less to operate, but in practice at
25 F the heat pump cannot keep the house warm and it runs full time.
So you have to take the wear and tear cost into account. How much
does it cost to replace a compressor? Also if it is icing up and the
defrost cycle has to run every 1/2 hour, it just doesn't make sense to
run the machine any longer.

Mark

On Jan 26, 8:33*pm, Mark wrote:
IMO, SRN's posts accurately describe what's going on. * As he pointed
out,
while a heat pump's efficiency drops as the outdoor temp declines,
even
at 25 deg, a decent one is still *producing over 2X the heat you'd get
using resistance
heat. * So, the advice to go to 100% aux heat makes no sense to me,
unless
you want an even higher bill.

While I agree with you in theory but at 25 deg F, not in practice.

In theory, the heat pump will cost less to operate, but in practice at
25 F the heat pump cannot keep the house warm and it runs full time.
So you have to take the wear and tear cost into account. *How much
does it cost to replace a compressor?

I guess when it gets cold here and the furnace is running most of the
time, I should shut it off because I'll wear it out. If you amortize
the
heat pump cost over it's entire life and factor that in to the cost of
operating it, I'm sure you'll come out ahead
compared to using electric resistance heat, even when it's 25F. At
that temp, you're still getting 2X the heat for every $1 of
electricity.
How many hours of that do you think it takes before you've paid for
the heat pump?



*Also if it is icing up and the
defrost cycle has to run every 1/2 hour, it just doesn't make sense to
run the machine any longer.

Mark

If it's in an environment where it's defrosting that frequently, then
yes,
I agree that's an issue.