Well, the chimney sweeps just left and it didnt' go anywhere near how
I would expect. So I need advice form you guys on several things.
Specific qustions are farther down, in the second part that's also
labeled 1 and 2.

They were supposed to come between noon and 4, and I figured they had
to come by four because it's dark by 5 and the woman on the phone said
they alway clean from the roof and the basement. -- I was getting the
the oil furnace and also the fireplace chimneys cleaned.

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Then one of them slid behind the furnace even though the space is only
14 1/2" wide and he wasn't especially small, and looked where the flue
went up to that black metal plate I posted abbout earlier** He
raised his arms and seemed to be doing something for 2 or 3 minutes.

He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
.....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. So he's only talking
about the flue***. He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

My questions:

So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

Actually it's been over 20 years since the fireplace chimney was
cleaned, and since it had almost no dirt fall down, even with the
ratty brush which was run up and down only once, I think I can go
another 30 years or until I move or die, whichever comes first.

2) WRT the furnace, have you ever heard of a stove pipe that can't be
cleaned because of soot or other oil furnace residue?



**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I
looked at the bottom of the chimney from the other side a few days
ago, I saw that it's not a plate, but a box, about 12 or 14 inches
square and 2 inches high, all very even black-color, like the surface
is just like new. It's not soot or dust because around it it's not
black at all. One side of the box is against the outside wall, one
against the wood-framing that holds up the basement landing, one side
partially against the main heating duct and the rest open but there is
no door, and the fourth side facing me but above the flue and no door,
so there is no cleanout, even though with a different part, there
could be one there.

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.


Thanks for any advice you can give me.

"mm" wrote

So what do you guys think?

Your main fireplace is low use so you get little dirt back. Mine is high
use and gets cleaned at summer and again mid-winter. 1.5 cords a year about
in use. Takes longer as there is lots of creosote to knock back.

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

Fire behind it which from your description is wood timber? Unsafe. Replace
before use again.

2) WRT the furnace, have you ever heard of a stove pipe that can't be
cleaned because of soot or other oil furnace residue?

If it can be removed easily, it can be cleaned. It's well past a brush job
though with that much build up. It's a fire hazard now from the sounds of
it and not a joke. When was the last time you had that done?

?
"mm" wrote

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

A half cord of wood would leave little creosote. In a fireplace, you get
less than a slow burning airtight wood stove also. I clean m ine after
about two cords. When I burned wood, I'd use about 4 or 5 cords a year and
give it at least two cleanings.


He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

What is behind it? You may want to get a second opinion, but the crack
could be a problem down the road if it opens. It may also be possible to
seal it, but I have no expertise in that area so ask someone that does.



He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

I'm able to get 95% of my cleaning done from inside the house. The portion
of chimney up top is always very clean. They may be correct.



2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Soot from an oil burner is different (and less a danger of fire) than
creosote in a wood burning device.



He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. So he's only talking
about the flue***. He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

Of course it puts out carbon monoxide. That is why you have a flue to
direct it outside. Rather than ruin a $30 brush, it is better you spend
$685 to replace the flue. Sounds pricey to me. Is this triple wall pipe?
That is expensive.



He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

Total cost? Not so bad for anyone to come out to the house for anything.


So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

Metal makes lots of noise as it expands and contract. Probably normal.



He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen.
You may want to have it evaluated though. I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.



**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.

He's probably not replacing them.



Thanks for any advice you can give me.

I think you need a new chimney sweep.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:00:23 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

?
"mm" wrote

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

A half cord of wood would leave little creosote. In a fireplace, you get
less than a slow burning airtight wood stove also.

Interesting. I thought, assumed, air-tight stoves were better in all
ways, except they don't have the romance of a fireplace.

I clean m ine after
about two cords. When I burned wood, I'd use about 4 or 5 cords a year and
give it at least two cleanings.


He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

What is behind it?

I'm betting that there is cinder block behind it. If so, that would be
safe, wouldn't it?

There is framing and sheetrock on the left and right of the fireplace,
but would they put framing right behind the fireplace? Is the first
floor held up by basement wall framing or by the cinder block walls
and the the two steel girders that go crosswise across the baseement,
And the floor joists that run parallel to the wall with the fireplace?
Serious question. If it is the latter three things, there was no
need to frame behind the chimney, and maybe a a bad idea for this very
reason. And against code????

You may want to get a second opinion, but the crack
could be a problem down the road if it opens. It may also be possible to
seal it,

Great idea. I'll look into that. Would this be an excuse for me to
by a small arc-welder? Or maybe I can figure out how to take the
piece out and take it to a welder, or buy a new piece and install it
myself. The piece moves freely, but not a lot because things are in
the way.

but I have no expertise in that area so ask someone that does.

I'll start by googling metal furnace crack . I didn't have time
to make a fire tonight, but I will soon. I don't think it opens at
all and as I said, I think I've had it for years. If I ever had
noticed it open, I would have paid attention. As it is now, no fire
is going to get out, but otoh, if I stop watching at the end of a
fire, even if I'm sitting right there, I won't know if it opened up
and set fire to something in the back.

I also have the fireplace installation instructions somewhere. The
previous owner saved and gave me everything. But I was looking for
that file just now to get something else, and it's not in the file
cabinet I think. Which means it is somewhere else in the house.

.....No time for a five at 5AM but I just looked at the fireplace and
the crack goes from top almost to borrom, and there's another crack
starting 6 inches to the right. But when I push on the plate, the
whole back of the fire area, it move easily a quarter inch or more but
the cracks don't open at all. Next I'll check with a fire and a
poker.


He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

I'm able to get 95% of my cleaning done from inside the house. The portion
of chimney up top is always very clean. They may be correct.

I'll buy that it was okay, but that still leaves me angry at the woman
on the phone, who must have said that just to get the job. After I
complain, I'll wait a couple months and have a friend call to see if
she is still saying the same thing.

2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Soot from an oil burner is different (and less a danger of fire) than
creosote in a wood burning device.


He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. So he's only talking
about the flue***. He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

Of course it puts out carbon monoxide. That is why you have a flue to
direct it outside. Rather than ruin a $30 brush, it is better you spend
$685 to replace the flue. Sounds pricey to me. Is this triple wall pipe?
That is expensive.

I've seen the one foot pipe and the two foot pipe and two of the angle
pieces and they are one wall pipe. I'm sure the last pipe is the
same.

The chimney is two wall aiui, but now it occurs to me that he said
nothing about the chimney. I can imagine someone would pay 685 to
replace the stove pipe and when they started up again, they woudl say,
Oh, there's something wrong with your chimney too. That will be
another 3000 (a guestimate).

I"m going to ask them about this tomorrow.


He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

Total cost? Not so bad for anyone to come out to the house for anything.

Total cost for the second chimney. The first was to be 125, but he
didn't charge for that. Wouldn't most people come to the house to do a
flue replacement estimate?


So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

Metal makes lots of noise as it expands and contract. Probably normal.



He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen.
You may want to have it evaluated though. I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.

Well I coudl pry open the crack and see what's behind it, but that
seems counter-productive.

I could drill a hole in from the side. Measure the depth of the
fireplace and see how far it is from the cinder block, regardless of
whether there is framing there or not, and then I can calculate by
measuring to the left of the fireplace.

No good place to drill a hole since I built in bookshelves next to the
fireplace, but if I have to make a hole I can.

**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.

He's probably not replacing them.

They have as much soot as the other pipes.



Thanks for any advice you can give me.

I think you need a new chimney sweep.

Yes, I think so. I may end up wishing I could give him the fireplace
chimney too, but while he is there to for the furnace, he can tell me
what he thinks about the fireplace.

They also told me they were the cheapest people in town and said the
other places charge 165, and indeed the first place charged 170.

But the second place charged 125 and 115, just as this guy did.

And they all seem to share the same last name, these two places and
one other with a business listing about chimneys, who didn't call me
back (but she gave her name on her answering machine.) They're in a
small town near here and I wonder if it's one family that went their
separate ways. There's a pair of stores here not related to
chimneys, and one calls itself "The original xxxx'x" and it turns out
something like they and the other one were both children of the
original owner, and one started a competing store.

On Dec 30, 5:21*am, mm wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:00:23 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"





wrote:
?
"mm" wrote

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. *It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. *He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? *He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

A half cord of wood would leave little creosote. * In a fireplace, you get
less than a slow burning airtight wood stove also.

Interesting. *I thought, assumed, air-tight stoves were better in all
ways, except they don't have the romance of a fireplace.

I clean m ine after
about two cords. When I burned wood, I'd use about 4 or 5 cords a year and
give it at least two cleanings.

He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. *Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. *Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

What is behind it? *

I'm betting that there is cinder block behind it. If so, that would be
safe, wouldn't it?

There is framing and sheetrock on the left and right of the fireplace,
but would they put framing right behind the fireplace? *Is the first
floor held up by basement wall framing or by the cinder block walls
and the the two steel girders that go crosswise across the baseement,
And the floor joists that run parallel to the wall with the fireplace?
Serious question. * *If it is the latter three things, there was no
need to frame behind the chimney, and maybe a a bad idea for this very
reason. * And against code????

You may want to get a second opinion, but the crack
could be a problem down the road if it opens. *It may also be possible to
seal it,

Great idea. *I'll look into that. * Would this be an excuse for me to
by a small arc-welder? *Or maybe I can figure out how to take the
piece out and take it to a welder, or buy a new piece and install it
myself. *The piece moves freely, but not a lot because things are in
the way.

but I have no expertise in that area so ask someone that does.

I'll start by googling * *metal furnace crack * . * I didn't have time
to make a fire tonight, but I will soon. *I don't think it opens at
all and as I said, I think I've had it for years. *If I ever had
noticed it open, I would have paid attention. *As it is now, no fire
is going to get out, but otoh, if I stop watching at the end of a
fire, even if I'm sitting right there, I won't know if it opened up
and set fire to something in the back.

I also have the fireplace installation instructions somewhere. *The
previous owner saved and gave me everything. *But I was looking for
that file just now to get something else, and it's not in the file
cabinet I think. *Which means it is somewhere else in the house.

....No time for a five at 5AM but I just looked at the fireplace and
the crack goes from top almost to borrom, and there's another crack
starting 6 inches to the right. *But when I push on the plate, the
whole back of the fire area, it move easily a quarter inch or more but
the cracks don't open at all. * Next I'll check with a fire and a
poker.



He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. *In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

I'm able to get 95% of my cleaning done from inside the house. *The portion
of chimney up top is always very clean. * *They may be correct.

I'll buy that it was okay, but that still leaves me angry at the woman
on the phone, who must have said that just to get the job. *After I
complain, I'll wait a couple months and have a friend call to see if
she is still saying the same thing.





2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. *The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Soot from an oil burner is different (and less a danger of fire) than
creosote in a wood burning device.

He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. *He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. *So he's only talking
about the flue***. *He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. * He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. *He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

Of course it puts out carbon monoxide. *That is why you have a flue to
direct it outside. *Rather than ruin a $30 brush, it is better you spend
$685 to replace the flue. *Sounds pricey to me. *Is this triple wall pipe?
That is expensive.

I've seen the one foot pipe and the two foot pipe and two of the angle
pieces and they are one wall pipe. *I'm sure the last pipe is the
same.

The chimney is two wall aiui, but now it occurs to me that he said
nothing about the chimney. *I can imagine someone would pay 685 to
replace the stove pipe and when they started up again, they woudl say,
Oh, there's something wrong with your chimney too. * That will be
another 3000 (a guestimate).

I"m going to ask them about this tomorrow.



He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

Total cost? *Not so bad for anyone to come out to the house for anything.

Total cost for the second chimney. *The first was to be 125, but he
didn't charge for that. Wouldn't most people come to the house to do a
flue replacement estimate? *







So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. *Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. * The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

Metal makes lots of noise as it expands and contract. *Probably normal..

He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. *If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen..
You may want to have it evaluated though. *I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.

Well I coudl pry open the crack and see what's behind it, but that
seems counter-productive. *

I could drill a hole in from the side. * Measure the depth of the
fireplace and see how far it is from the cinder block, regardless of
whether there is framing there or not, and then I can calculate by
measuring to the left of the fireplace.

No good place to drill a hole since I built in bookshelves next to the
fireplace, but if I have to make a hole I can.

**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. *No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.

He's probably not replacing them.

They have as much soot as the other pipes.



Thanks for any advice you can give me.

I think you need a new chimney sweep.

Yes, I think so. * I may end up wishing I could give him the fireplace
chimney too, but while he is there to for the furnace, he can tell me
what he thinks about the fireplace.

They also told me they were the cheapest people in town and said the
other places charge 165, and indeed the first place charged 170.

But the second place charged 125 and 115, just as this guy did.

And they all seem to share the same last name, these two places and
one other with a business listing about chimneys, who didn't call me
back (but she gave her name on her answering machine.) *They're in a
small town near here and I wonder if it's one family that went their
separate ways. * There's a pair of stores here not related to
chimneys, and one calls itself "The original xxxx'x" and it turns out
something like they and the other one were both children of the
original owner, and one started a competing store.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

IT sounds to me like the chimney sweep is full of crap. I had a guy
out several years ago
and he checked both the fireplace, furnace end, and from the roof.
Part of the basic service
is to INSPECT the whole thing. You can't inspect the upper and
outside parts of the chimney, ie
see if it cracked and falling apart, has a proper cap, etc without
going up on the roof. One thing my
guy spotted was that the cap covering the chimeny chase was rusting
and he recommended
covering it with a heavy duty thick coating to protect it.

If his brushes are such crap that they can't clean 1/4 or 1/2 inch of
oil burner soot, which is what
he's there to do, then what good are they or his service?
Personally, based on what you say he
told you, I wouldn't have paid him.

I'd get another service out there. The fireplace may need to be
repaired. I'm no expert on that, but
I can tell you a friend bought a 4 year old house with one of the
typical wood burning fireplaces that's
used in frame construction next to wood. There was about a 3/16" gap
between where the ceramic
panels meet in the back corner. The home inspector flagged it and my
friend then had one of the largest
fireplace shops in the area evaluate it. They said it was perfectly
normal and that's how they are
designed, it's necessary for expansion, etc. No point for them to
lie, they could have sold an expensive
repair instead of a $75 service visit.

Now, that's different than a crack, but clearly they must have
insulation and steel behind those panels in these
fireplaces to prevent a spark from getting through that opening. My
guesss, and it's only a guess, is that the hairline crack
you have by itself is not a danger. I think the potential problem is
that the crack might lead to a whole
piece of the ceramic lining falling away, which would then be a
danger. But you need a fireplace pro to give
you that evaluation. Or you could find out the name of the
manufacturer and see what they have on their website
give them a call, etc.

On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 05:21:37 -0500, mm wrote:

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:00:23 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

?
"mm" wrote

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

A half cord of wood would leave little creosote. In a fireplace, you get
less than a slow burning airtight wood stove also.

Interesting. I thought, assumed, air-tight stoves were better in all
ways, except they don't have the romance of a fireplace.

Ours had a "glass" front. It looked like a fireplace but was quite efficient
and clean. The only problem I had with the thing is that if I let the fire
die (e.g. overnight) I had to let it die completely and clean the glass. If I
didn't, the next fire would bake the smoke onto the glass and it was a RPITA
to get clean again. As long as I cleaned it before firing it up it was and
easy job, but that required letting the fire die completely.

The sweep kept telling us to "keep doing whatever you're doing" because the
chimney was clean, so "air tight" stoves don't have to leave a buildup of
creosote. They burn more completely so there shouldn't be as much in the
chimney. Another answer is to not burn softwoods.

I clean m ine after
about two cords. When I burned wood, I'd use about 4 or 5 cords a year and
give it at least two cleanings.


He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

What is behind it?

I'm betting that there is cinder block behind it. If so, that would be
safe, wouldn't it?

There is framing and sheetrock on the left and right of the fireplace,
but would they put framing right behind the fireplace? Is the first
floor held up by basement wall framing or by the cinder block walls
and the the two steel girders that go crosswise across the baseement,
And the floor joists that run parallel to the wall with the fireplace?
Serious question. If it is the latter three things, there was no
need to frame behind the chimney, and maybe a a bad idea for this very
reason. And against code????

You may want to get a second opinion, but the crack
could be a problem down the road if it opens. It may also be possible to
seal it,

Great idea. I'll look into that. Would this be an excuse for me to
by a small arc-welder? Or maybe I can figure out how to take the
piece out and take it to a welder, or buy a new piece and install it
myself. The piece moves freely, but not a lot because things are in
the way.

but I have no expertise in that area so ask someone that does.

I'll start by googling metal furnace crack . I didn't have time
to make a fire tonight, but I will soon. I don't think it opens at
all and as I said, I think I've had it for years. If I ever had
noticed it open, I would have paid attention. As it is now, no fire
is going to get out, but otoh, if I stop watching at the end of a
fire, even if I'm sitting right there, I won't know if it opened up
and set fire to something in the back.

I also have the fireplace installation instructions somewhere. The
previous owner saved and gave me everything. But I was looking for
that file just now to get something else, and it's not in the file
cabinet I think. Which means it is somewhere else in the house.

....No time for a five at 5AM but I just looked at the fireplace and
the crack goes from top almost to borrom, and there's another crack
starting 6 inches to the right. But when I push on the plate, the
whole back of the fire area, it move easily a quarter inch or more but
the cracks don't open at all. Next I'll check with a fire and a
poker.


He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

I'm able to get 95% of my cleaning done from inside the house. The portion
of chimney up top is always very clean. They may be correct.

I'll buy that it was okay, but that still leaves me angry at the woman
on the phone, who must have said that just to get the job. After I
complain, I'll wait a couple months and have a friend call to see if
she is still saying the same thing.

2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Soot from an oil burner is different (and less a danger of fire) than
creosote in a wood burning device.


He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. So he's only talking
about the flue***. He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

Of course it puts out carbon monoxide. That is why you have a flue to
direct it outside. Rather than ruin a $30 brush, it is better you spend
$685 to replace the flue. Sounds pricey to me. Is this triple wall pipe?
That is expensive.

I've seen the one foot pipe and the two foot pipe and two of the angle
pieces and they are one wall pipe. I'm sure the last pipe is the
same.

The chimney is two wall aiui, but now it occurs to me that he said
nothing about the chimney. I can imagine someone would pay 685 to
replace the stove pipe and when they started up again, they woudl say,
Oh, there's something wrong with your chimney too. That will be
another 3000 (a guestimate).

I"m going to ask them about this tomorrow.


He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

Total cost? Not so bad for anyone to come out to the house for anything.

Total cost for the second chimney. The first was to be 125, but he
didn't charge for that. Wouldn't most people come to the house to do a
flue replacement estimate?


So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

Metal makes lots of noise as it expands and contract. Probably normal.



He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen.
You may want to have it evaluated though. I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.

Well I coudl pry open the crack and see what's behind it, but that
seems counter-productive.

I could drill a hole in from the side. Measure the depth of the
fireplace and see how far it is from the cinder block, regardless of
whether there is framing there or not, and then I can calculate by
measuring to the left of the fireplace.

No good place to drill a hole since I built in bookshelves next to the
fireplace, but if I have to make a hole I can.

**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.

He's probably not replacing them.

They have as much soot as the other pipes.



Thanks for any advice you can give me.

I think you need a new chimney sweep.

Yes, I think so. I may end up wishing I could give him the fireplace
chimney too, but while he is there to for the furnace, he can tell me
what he thinks about the fireplace.

They also told me they were the cheapest people in town and said the
other places charge 165, and indeed the first place charged 170.

But the second place charged 125 and 115, just as this guy did.

And they all seem to share the same last name, these two places and
one other with a business listing about chimneys, who didn't call me
back (but she gave her name on her answering machine.) They're in a
small town near here and I wonder if it's one family that went their
separate ways. There's a pair of stores here not related to
chimneys, and one calls itself "The original xxxx'x" and it turns out
something like they and the other one were both children of the
original owner, and one started a competing store.

On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 05:56:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:


IT sounds to me like the chimney sweep is full of crap. I had a guy
out several years ago
and he checked both the fireplace, furnace end, and from the roof.
Part of the basic service
is to INSPECT the whole thing. You can't inspect the upper and
outside parts of the chimney, ie
see if it cracked and falling apart, has a proper cap, etc without
going up on the roof. One thing my
guy spotted was that the cap covering the chimeny chase was rusting
and he recommended
covering it with a heavy duty thick coating to protect it.

You remind me that the earlier chimney sweep, ahem, 20 years ago, did
go up on the roof. These guys otoh, didn't arrive until 4:45. There
was still enough light to do the roof things if they had started right
away, but they didn't. They were going to an appointment when they
left me, and by then it was totally dark.

It was strange. I called him about the fireplace and didn't think of
the furnace, and he never reminded me either. If he had, I probably
would have done the furnace too.

If his brushes are such crap that they can't clean 1/4 or 1/2 inch of
oil burner soot, which is what
he's there to do, then what good are they or his service?
Personally, based on what you say he
told you, I wouldn't have paid him.

I thought about not paying. I even thought about what you guys would
say when I told you I paid. But he had sent the brush up the chimney
and even if someone else sent it up and down more than once it
wouldn't have gotten much since it got so little the first time.

They should send the brush up and down more than once, shouldn't they?


Interestingly, the thing they had me sign doesn't say I'm satisfied
with their work, it only releasees them from liability:

"The company has explained to me and I now fully understand the
apparent condition of my fireplace, appliance, chinmney or vent system
at this time. I understand that the Company has performed a visual
inspection and is not reponsible for hidden or concealed defects. We
have discussed visible defects and the company has recommended
corrective actions. Since hidden construction defects and conditions
of use are beyond the control of thee Company, I undersnat no
guarantee or warranty of fire safey of any appliance is given or
implied."

I'd get another service out there.

Okay, I would just call the other place today, but I want a little
time to figure out the family relationship. Are they working with
each other, bad cop, good cop, or are they competitors. Even if their
father started a second company, if the children, the cousins, are
running the companies now, they might have decided to cooperate.
Unlikely that they're in cahoots but I want to read more reviews if I
can find them.

I want to have a fire in the fireplace too, before I call, in case the
conversation turns to fireplaces.

The fireplace may need to be
repaired. I'm no expert on that, but
I can tell you a friend bought a 4 year old house with one of the
typical wood burning fireplaces that's
used in frame construction next to wood. There was about a 3/16" gap
between where the ceramic panels meet in the back corner.

Right. I have that too, on both sides, and Right. It's not broken
there but the crack isn't open at all. (I still haven't had a fire,
maybe tonight.)

The home inspector flagged it and my
friend then had one of the largest
fireplace shops in the area evaluate it. They said it was perfectly
normal and that's how they are
designed, it's necessary for expansion, etc. No point for them to
lie, they could have sold an expensive
repair instead of a $75 service visit.

Right. There are plenty of honest companies.

Now, that's different than a crack, but clearly they must have
insulation and steel behind those panels in these
fireplaces to prevent a spark from getting through that opening. My
guesss, and it's only a guess, is that the hairline crack
you have by itself is not a danger. I think the potential problem is
that the crack might lead to a whole
piece of the ceramic lining falling away, which would then be a
danger. But you need a fireplace pro to give
you that evaluation. Or you could find out the name of the
manufacturer and see what they have on their website
give them a call, etc.

I have the fireplace instructions, but I havent' found them yet.

Thanks and thanks krw.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 22:30:51 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"mm" wrote

So what do you guys think?

Your main fireplace is low use so you get little dirt back. Mine is high
use and gets cleaned at summer and again mid-winter. 1.5 cords a year about
in use. Takes longer as there is lots of creosote to knock back.

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

Fire behind it which from your description is wood timber? Unsafe. Replace
before use again.

Thanks. Behind the fireplace might be cinder block. I'm looking into
it.

2) WRT the furnace, have you ever heard of a stove pipe that can't be
cleaned because of soot or other oil furnace residue?

If it can be removed easily, it can be cleaned.

It certainly can. All but the last piece I could take out myself and
vacuum and wash in the front yard, if needed.

It's well past a brush job
though with that much build up. It's a fire hazard now from the sounds of
it and not a joke. When was the last time you had that done?

I think it was 3 or 4 years ago. One of those years I was away for 2
months of the winter, and two other years, I called my oil company to
have them come out. They said they were all booked up, and said they
would call me when the rush was over, but they never did. So when I
thought they were still busy, I ended up just buying a good ShopVac
that could use the better filter bags meant for soot, and cleaning as
much as I could reach myself, with a 4 foot clear vinyl hose taped to
the end of the vacuum,

The Shop Vac worked great, in that no soot came out the exhaust and it
sucked up the soot quickly. The clear hose didnt' stay clear very
long.

I replaced the oil burner nozzle and aligned the electodes myself.

Sadly, I don't have gauges but the furnace guys haven't been using
those anyhow, in recent years. Nor did they remind me to get the
chimney cleaned, even when it was 1 1/2 inch thick all around inside,
the time 4 years ago that the CO detector went off.

This year it occurred to me before getting them to adjust the furnace,
I should have the chimney cleaned.


The previous furnace guy didnt' use gauges, but when it was 1 1/2
inches thick in the stove pipe, he just vacuumed it up with no need
for a brush and no complaints that it would ruin his vacuum or
anything. These guys are such liars; I almost wish I'd told them off
when they were there.

On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 12:34:23 -0600, "
wrote:


Ours had a "glass" front. It looked like a fireplace but was quite efficient
and clean. The only problem I had with the thing is that if I let the fire
die (e.g. overnight) I had to let it die completely and clean the glass. If I
didn't, the next fire would bake the smoke onto the glass and it was a RPITA
to get clean again. As long as I cleaned it before firing it up it was and
easy job, but that required letting the fire die completely.

The only thing I know aobut htat is that when I had an old outdoor gas
grill with a window, I was able to clean a lot of the dirt off with a
razor scraper. I think it looked very good afterwards, but I don't
know how that comapares to a "neglected" glass fire screen.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:00:23 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen.
You may want to have it evaluated though. I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.

I didn't know anything about furnace cement but I see some brands say
they're good to 2000 F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire says

Temperatures of flames by appearance
A Fire at 1/4000th of a second

The temperature of flames with carbon particles emitting light can be
assessed by their color:[10]

* Red
o Just visible: 525 °C (977 °F)
o Dull: 700 °C (1,292 °F)
o Cherry, dull: 800 °C (1,470 °F)
o Cherry, full: 900 °C (1,650 °F)
o Cherry, clear: 1,000 °C (1,830 °F)
* Orange
o Deep: 1,100 °C (2,010 °F)
o Clear: 1,200 °C (2,190 °F)
* White
o Whitish: 1,300 °C (2,370 °F)
o Bright: 1,400 °C (2,550 °F)
o Dazzling: 1,500 °C (2,730 °F)

I don't think my flame was ever white. Even the oil furnace flame is
only yellow, which is not listed here!

Parker Furnace Cement says it's good to 3000 F.

That doesn't mean it will stick, or even that I shouldn't do something
else. But the cheaper brands of furnace cement were only 5 dollars,
not 385!