On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:00:23 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

?
"mm" wrote

Their work:
1) The fireplace took them about 10 or 15 minutes, from the basement
only and almost nothing came out when they ran the brush up the metal
pipe. It was a sort of ratty-looking brush in that I thought the
bristles were uneven and that quite a few were missing. He said I had
burnt less than a half cord of wood (since the previous cleaning) and
that is probably true, even though it's been 22 years or so and I use
the fireplace 4 to 10 times a year. Not one of my important questions
today but say that totals 110 hours of fires, do you think that would
be less than 1/2 cord? He held his hands together like a bowl and
said that volume would come from a cord of wood.

A half cord of wood would leave little creosote. In a fireplace, you get
less than a slow burning airtight wood stove also.

Interesting. I thought, assumed, air-tight stoves were better in all
ways, except they don't have the romance of a fireplace.

I clean m ine after
about two cords. When I burned wood, I'd use about 4 or 5 cords a year and
give it at least two cleanings.


He saw a clearly visible crack, a crooked black line, but with no
empty space between the sides, which I think is called a hairline
crack, in the back panel of the steel pre-fab fireplace, and said that
would be $389 dollars to be replaced. Each panel he had said before
he started was about $380. Even before he started, he brought up how
easy it is with prefab fireplaces to replace one of the three walls or
the bottom.

What is behind it?

I'm betting that there is cinder block behind it. If so, that would be
safe, wouldn't it?

There is framing and sheetrock on the left and right of the fireplace,
but would they put framing right behind the fireplace? Is the first
floor held up by basement wall framing or by the cinder block walls
and the the two steel girders that go crosswise across the baseement,
And the floor joists that run parallel to the wall with the fireplace?
Serious question. If it is the latter three things, there was no
need to frame behind the chimney, and maybe a a bad idea for this very
reason. And against code????

You may want to get a second opinion, but the crack
could be a problem down the road if it opens. It may also be possible to
seal it,

Great idea. I'll look into that. Would this be an excuse for me to
by a small arc-welder? Or maybe I can figure out how to take the
piece out and take it to a welder, or buy a new piece and install it
myself. The piece moves freely, but not a lot because things are in
the way.

but I have no expertise in that area so ask someone that does.

I'll start by googling metal furnace crack . I didn't have time
to make a fire tonight, but I will soon. I don't think it opens at
all and as I said, I think I've had it for years. If I ever had
noticed it open, I would have paid attention. As it is now, no fire
is going to get out, but otoh, if I stop watching at the end of a
fire, even if I'm sitting right there, I won't know if it opened up
and set fire to something in the back.

I also have the fireplace installation instructions somewhere. The
previous owner saved and gave me everything. But I was looking for
that file just now to get something else, and it's not in the file
cabinet I think. Which means it is somewhere else in the house.

.....No time for a five at 5AM but I just looked at the fireplace and
the crack goes from top almost to borrom, and there's another crack
starting 6 inches to the right. But when I push on the plate, the
whole back of the fire area, it move easily a quarter inch or more but
the cracks don't open at all. Next I'll check with a fire and a
poker.


He was done and when I asked about the roof, he said they went up on
the roof when it was necessary. In contrast to the woman on the phone
who said they always did.

I'm able to get 95% of my cleaning done from inside the house. The portion
of chimney up top is always very clean. They may be correct.

I'll buy that it was okay, but that still leaves me angry at the woman
on the phone, who must have said that just to get the job. After I
complain, I'll wait a couple months and have a friend call to see if
she is still saying the same thing.

2) Then the two men went to the furnace, and took apart the flue,
pointing me to the dirt inside, and it was 1/4 inch or a little more
all around. The soot definitely tends to stick together and makes my
fingers dirty, but it's a lot more like dry and very little if at all
like oily.

Soot from an oil burner is different (and less a danger of fire) than
creosote in a wood burning device.


He came out from behind the furnace and said because the dirt was 1/4"
to in some places 1/2 inch thick, if he tried to clean [the flue], it
would ruin his brushes (which he later told me are made out of some
kind of plastic) and that he couldn't use them again, and he couldn't
clean the pipes anyhow. He said I needed new pipes from furnace to
....well I thought he was going to say roof, but I realize he never
said that, and the paper he wrote says ceiling. So he's only talking
about the flue***. He said he couldn't do anything now, and said it
would be $685 to replace the pipes. He said if he took it apart more
there would be dirt everywhere. He said that amount of dirt was
lethal and it meant the furnace was putting out carbon monoxide,
although my brand new Kidde CO detector always says zero.

Of course it puts out carbon monoxide. That is why you have a flue to
direct it outside. Rather than ruin a $30 brush, it is better you spend
$685 to replace the flue. Sounds pricey to me. Is this triple wall pipe?
That is expensive.

I've seen the one foot pipe and the two foot pipe and two of the angle
pieces and they are one wall pipe. I'm sure the last pipe is the
same.

The chimney is two wall aiui, but now it occurs to me that he said
nothing about the chimney. I can imagine someone would pay 685 to
replace the stove pipe and when they started up again, they woudl say,
Oh, there's something wrong with your chimney too. That will be
another 3000 (a guestimate).

I"m going to ask them about this tomorrow.


He put the old pipes back together, and asked for $115 which is their
price for the second chimney, and the fireplace was the second chimney
in my case.

Total cost? Not so bad for anyone to come out to the house for anything.

Total cost for the second chimney. The first was to be 125, but he
didn't charge for that. Wouldn't most people come to the house to do a
flue replacement estimate?


So what do you guys think?

1) I think I've had the crack in the fireplace for years. I've never
seen it open up but it's hard to see when there are flames in front of
it. Still I watch the fire closely and when it's low I still don't
think I've seen the crack open. Maybe I'll make a fire and verify
this. The fireplace make banging noises when the fire increases and
somewhat when it descreases. I think that's normal for a steel
fireplace.

Metal makes lots of noise as it expands and contract. Probably normal.



He didnt' say what would happen if it wasnt' fixed and I didnt' ask.
What would?

If the crack opens and there is wood behind it, there is fire potential. If
it is brick or concrete and the crack does not open, nothing will happen.
You may want to have it evaluated though. I don't know if it can be
repaired with furnace cement or not.

Well I coudl pry open the crack and see what's behind it, but that
seems counter-productive.

I could drill a hole in from the side. Measure the depth of the
fireplace and see how far it is from the cinder block, regardless of
whether there is framing there or not, and then I can calculate by
measuring to the left of the fireplace.

No good place to drill a hole since I built in bookshelves next to the
fireplace, but if I have to make a hole I can.

**(Actually, several days ago I said it was a black plate, but when I

***For the furnace, he itemizes one 2' ST pipe, one 4' ST, one 1' ST,
4 adjustable 90^ elbows. No mention of the T or the barometric
damper.

He's probably not replacing them.

They have as much soot as the other pipes.



Thanks for any advice you can give me.

I think you need a new chimney sweep.

Yes, I think so. I may end up wishing I could give him the fireplace
chimney too, but while he is there to for the furnace, he can tell me
what he thinks about the fireplace.

They also told me they were the cheapest people in town and said the
other places charge 165, and indeed the first place charged 170.

But the second place charged 125 and 115, just as this guy did.

And they all seem to share the same last name, these two places and
one other with a business listing about chimneys, who didn't call me
back (but she gave her name on her answering machine.) They're in a
small town near here and I wonder if it's one family that went their
separate ways. There's a pair of stores here not related to
chimneys, and one calls itself "The original xxxx'x" and it turns out
something like they and the other one were both children of the
original owner, and one started a competing store.