Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
Dear Everyone,
as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Do you know that there is plenty of natural gas ? The supply will last for many decades, probably for hundred years. A lot of methane (natural gas) is found as shale gas, a lot more will come from methane hidrates. Natural gas is causing much less greenhouse gases and since it is found locally, it will not cause any wars or terror. It will create jobs in your own country and not in the middle east. Do you know that by converting your car to natural gas, you can save a lot of money ? It costs a lot lot less. You may say that there are not enough gas stations, but you can fuel at home* over night. You also should convert your car to dual fuel, that means if your natural gas tank is empty you can switch to petrol, until you find a gas station. And the more people switch to natural gas, the more natural gas stations will be built, otherwise they can not earn money. Do you know that in Argentina there are almost 2 million CNG (compressed natural gas vehicles), also in Pakistan and Brazil there are more than 1,5 million CNG vehicles, whereas in the US there are not even 200000 of them, although most of the shale gas is found in the USA. Sources: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...gas-usat_N.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle * http://www.tulsagastech.com/phill.html |
#2
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:23:07 -0700 (PDT), ".."
wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Do you know that there is plenty of natural gas ? The supply will last for many decades, probably for hundred years. Once oil runs out the need for fuel will not end so it will be the only show in town and the demand will cause the price to jump as will the demand. No NG is not THE solution. It may be part of it, but the only solution will be a combination of changes on our part or new technology we don't have yet. |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
... wrote:
Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Well, no. The price of gasoline has risen less than inflation. The cost per mile has decreased dramatically in the last 30 years. There are today greater proven reserves than ever before. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Again, no. Oil doesn't necessarily cause wars; people cause wars. And no sane person cares about so-called "greenhouse gases." |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
HeyBub wrote:
.. wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Well, no. The price of gasoline has risen less than inflation. The cost per mile has decreased dramatically in the last 30 years. There are today greater proven reserves than ever before. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Again, no. Oil doesn't necessarily cause wars; people cause wars. And no sane person cares about so-called "greenhouse gases." Hmmm, That means you are insane? |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote: no flag-waving gun-toting texas republican cares about so-called "greenhouse gases." Some of the rest of us do, though. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 28, 4:23*pm, ".." wrote:
Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Do you know that there is plenty of natural gas ? The supply will last for many decades, probably for hundred years. A lot of methane (natural gas) is found as shale gas, a lot more will come from methane hidrates. Natural gas is causing much less greenhouse gases and since it is found locally, it will not cause any wars or terror. It will create jobs in your own country and not in the middle east. Do you know that by converting your car to natural gas, you can save a lot of money ? It costs a lot lot less. You may say that there are not enough gas stations, but you can fuel at home* over night. You also should convert your car to dual fuel, that means if your natural gas tank is empty you can switch to petrol, until you find a gas station. And the more people switch to natural gas, the more natural gas stations will be built, otherwise they can not earn money. Do you know that in Argentina there are almost 2 million CNG (compressed natural gas vehicles), also in Pakistan and Brazil there are more than 1,5 million CNG vehicles, whereas in the US there are not even 200000 of them, although most of the shale gas is found in the USA. Sources:http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...al_gas_vehicle * * *http://www.tulsagastech.com/phill.html The cost of the home pump units and the cost of running the compressor ruin any price advantage I would get. Until the gov wakes up and subsidises it, it wont fly. |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
ransley wrote:
On Jun 28, 4:23 pm, ".." wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Do you know that there is plenty of natural gas ? The supply will last for many decades, probably for hundred years. A lot of methane (natural gas) is found as shale gas, a lot more will come from methane hidrates. Natural gas is causing much less greenhouse gases and since it is found locally, it will not cause any wars or terror. It will create jobs in your own country and not in the middle east. Do you know that by converting your car to natural gas, you can save a lot of money ? It costs a lot lot less. You may say that there are not enough gas stations, but you can fuel at home* over night. You also should convert your car to dual fuel, that means if your natural gas tank is empty you can switch to petrol, until you find a gas station. And the more people switch to natural gas, the more natural gas stations will be built, otherwise they can not earn money. Do you know that in Argentina there are almost 2 million CNG (compressed natural gas vehicles), also in Pakistan and Brazil there are more than 1,5 million CNG vehicles, whereas in the US there are not even 200000 of them, although most of the shale gas is found in the USA. Sources:http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...al_gas_vehicle * http://www.tulsagastech.com/phill.html The cost of the home pump units and the cost of running the compressor ruin any price advantage I would get. Until the gov wakes up and subsidises it, it wont fly. "Government subsidizes it.."? That means, of course, that the bulk of the population pays. |
#8
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 8:23*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
ransley wrote: On Jun 28, 4:23 pm, ".." wrote: Dear Everyone, as you know the price of the Oil is more and more increasing, while the oil supply is decreasing. Moreover Oil is causing wars, terror, oil spills, a lot of greenhouse gases. Do you know that there is plenty of natural gas ? The supply will last for many decades, probably for hundred years. A lot of methane (natural gas) is found as shale gas, a lot more will come from methane hidrates. Natural gas is causing much less greenhouse gases and since it is found locally, it will not cause any wars or terror. It will create jobs in your own country and not in the middle east. Do you know that by converting your car to natural gas, you can save a lot of money ? It costs a lot lot less. You may say that there are not enough gas stations, but you can fuel at home* over night. You also should convert your car to dual fuel, that means if your natural gas tank is empty you can switch to petrol, until you find a gas station. And the more people switch to natural gas, the more natural gas stations will be built, otherwise they can not earn money. Do you know that in Argentina there are almost 2 million CNG (compressed natural gas vehicles), also in Pakistan and Brazil there are more than 1,5 million CNG vehicles, whereas in the US there are not even 200000 of them, although most of the shale gas is found in the USA. Sources:http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...gas-usat_N.htm... *http://www.tulsagastech.com/phill.html The cost of the home pump units and the cost of running the compressor ruin any price advantage I would get. Until the gov wakes up and subsidises it, it wont fly. "Government subsidizes it.."? That means, of course, that the bulk of the population pays.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Exactly. Just because the government hands out subsidies, it doesn't change something that is economically unviable into something that is. Take a look at what's going on with solar electric here in NJ. With all the subsidies between the feds and state, a $50K residential 6KW system can cost the homeowner only $25K to put in. The rest of that comes from the taxpayers and a surcharge placed on everyones electric bill. And after that, the power companies here are being forced to buy clean energy credits to meet their clean energy reqts, so you can get a few thousand a year in income on top of it. The only problem is, it only works with small numbers of people doing it. Which in turn means it can't amount to any substantial real impact on generating electricity to change anything. If more people did it, there would not be enough money to subsidize it. That is the paradox. As for NG, here in NJ, NJ Transit experimented with it for some of their busses. They have given up on it as not being cost effective, too much trouble, etc. And a bus fleet obviously has far less issues than using it for passenger cars, especially since busses can refuel at their own depots each visit, etc. |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
|
#10
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On 06/29/10 10:36 am, ransley wrote:
Ng conversion of cars and gasolene trucks is a better option, now it just has to be done so the pumps and extra power to run them are somehow compensated to those that convert. As to other samples of Ngs longer life attributes in gas engines just research Ng generators and conversions. alt.energy.homepower is where alot of off grid folk know how Ng will make a gas generator last longer. Honda was selling Ng civic vehicles, I dont know if they still do but their reliability is great and used they still get thousands in premiums for them. Ng is a fuel for the future, now the gov just has to make it cost effective somehow. My guess is that if natural gas (or propane, for that matter) catches on as a motor fuel gubbermints will start taxing it like other motor fuels. Gotta pay for those roads somehow. Perce |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
ransley wrote:
Ng is a fuel for the future, now the gov just has to make it cost effective somehow. Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote: In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." Few seem to realize that government mandating, encouraging and subsidizing oil-related products and services is pretty much what got us into this in the first place. So, it is all of a sudden supposed to work this time? -- I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator and name it after the IRS. Robert Bakker, paleontologist |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 11:43*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
ransley wrote: *Ng is a fuel for the future, now the gov just has to make it cost effective somehow. Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 11:43*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
snip Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." Does the author rhyme with 'Pain Band'? Joe |
#15
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
NG is safer than gasoline. NG is lighter than air and disipates fast
in a leak, gasoline pools hangs around and burns easily. NG needs a EXACT MIXTURE of air and NG or it wouldnt burn at all;. its a little less powerful than gasoline, so vehicles have less pep, but it burns super clean. ideally and easily NG vehicles are dual fuel gasoline or NG. The main problem is lack of filling stations government needs to mandate gas stations add NG, and car companies sell a percentage of dual fuel gasoline and NG vehicles. a NG vehicle has a range of about 100 miles between refueling, larger tanks get more range but cut into cargo capacity......... my best friend has run NG vehicles since the early 70s first gasoline crisis.... |
#16
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
ransley wrote:
Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. |
#17
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
Yes I recall as child (aged 10 when WWII ended) in the UK 'coal gas' from the mains in a large bladder in a frame on top of a car; so it must have been at atmospheric pressure! And apparently worked? But not sure what modifications had been made. Also recall some of the buses towing a trailer mounted generator/ boiler that somehow made gas that was fed to the bus engine. Probably fueled by coal that was mined locally in the UK while otherwise depending on Lend Lease convoys form the USA and Canada. BTW thank you USA for the help during those desperate days of the 1940s. Also for the postwar US Marshall Plan tha helped rebuild shattered nations. USA, at that time showed great statesmanship. Not so sure about the last 40 to 50 years! If someone can design a really efficient battery system hydro power/ recharging, *especially with increased rain due to global warming (our Canadian climate has definitely changed during the last 50 to 60 years) is obviously the way to go. Here we have been at over 90% and are approaching 100% hydro power. The following is quick and rough calcs. A US gallon of gas has about 90,000 BTUs of energy? Used rather inefficiently? And costs you about *$2.00? It cost us the eqivalent of about twice that in terms of US dollars btw! Mainly higher taxes and a smaller market I think. While 90,000 BTUs of electrcity costs us (domestically) about $2.70. So on that basis US fuel is pretty cheap! and it may be a while for it to change. It may be food and further water shortages that will trigger change. Please correct or add to this estimate as anyone sees fit.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The trailers behind cars/buses were producer gas generators. They made carbon monoxide gas from coke. The coke mass inside had to be heated to red heat to initiate production. Only the desperate had them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Producer_gas |
#18
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
|
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 30, 7:20*am, " wrote:
On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. Mr. Optimism speaks again. I can foresee a situation with a mid east military action, eg Israel bombs Iran's nukes and does what the UN and Obama, despite his apollogy tour, obviously can't. But would that result in a wider war? Probably not, because most of the Arab countries don't want Iran to have nukes either. Would it result in an oil embargo? Unlikely. The Arab oil countries are like junkies and need our money just as bad as we need their oil. They need cash flow to support all their construction, industrialization, and govt projects. Also, they are heavily invested in the West and the resultant hair cut in their investment value would in effect be like punishing themselves this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Food prices already skyrocketed because the government subsidies diverted grains to ethanol production. The prices of corn, soybeans, tripled. That didn't cause the world to come to an end. It hardly even had any effect on overall inflation. |
#21
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 10:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , wrote: Exactly. * Just because the government hands out subsidies, it doesn't change something that is economically unviable into something that is. * *Take a look at what's going on with solar electric here in NJ. * With all the subsidies between the feds and state, a $50K residential 6KW system can cost the homeowner only $25K to put in. The rest of that comes from the taxpayers and a surcharge placed on everyones electric bill. * *And after that, the power companies here are being forced to buy clean energy credits to meet their clean energy reqts, so you can get a few thousand a year in income on top of it. * *The only problem is, it only works with small numbers of people doing it. *Which in turn means it can't amount to any substantial real impact on generating electricity to change anything. * If more people did it, there would not be enough money to subsidize it. *That is the paradox. My take on this is that technology becomes substantially less expensive (IOW more economically viable) with increases in volume. Economies of scale, and continued refinement and improvement. So the gov't subsidies are a way, hopefully, to kick-start the alternative energy R&D and help to scale up production methods to the efficient level. I think this is a good example of the principle: Not everyone is aware that they have Apple to thank for low-cost LCD computer displays (and now LCD TVs.) Apple committed to LCDs by discontinuing all CRT displays a number of years ago. The first computer I bought for my son had a 17" LCD display that cost $800. Apple created an instant demand for millions of LCD displays, and single-handedly drove the cost down. It takes a small but significant commitment to a technology to make it economically viable. I think it's reasonable for the government to subsidize that commitment. I find it hard to believe that Apple had much at all to do with LCD computer displays becoming widespread. There ain't no way Apple could have used them had they not already been cost effective. If they were not cost effective, Apple would have gone broke. Also, Apple has an 8% PC market share. Just one in ten people buying any other PC with an LCD monitor equals Apples LCD volume. LCD, like similar technologies have been improving over time, they go into a wide variety of application besides just computer screens, eg TVs, cell phones, PDAs, and the cost has been coming down steadily. The obvious problem here is that when the govt does pick a solution as opposed to free markets, you typically do not wind up with an optimal or even good solution. Take your LCD example. Would you have relied on your typical Congressman in 1995 to have picked which display technology was going to be best, which was viable, and which would succeed? Suppose they funded projection CRT as the solution for widescreen TVs. Where might we be now? One can envision them trying to stick with it, force feed it down our throats, subsidize it more , even as better solutions started to emerge. |
#22
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 30, 11:25*am, wrote:
On Jun 30, 7:20*am, " wrote: On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. Mr. Optimism speaks again. * *I can foresee a situation with a mid east military action, eg Israel bombs Iran's nukes and does what the UN and Obama, despite his apollogy tour, obviously can't. * But would that result in a wider war? * Probably not, because most of the Arab countries don't want Iran to have nukes either. * Would it result in an oil embargo? * Unlikely. *The Arab oil countries are like junkies and need our money just as bad as we need their oil. *They need cash flow to support all their construction, industrialization, and govt projects. Also, they are heavily invested in the West and the resultant hair cut in their investment value would in effect be like punishing themselves this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Food prices already skyrocketed because the government subsidies diverted grains to ethanol production. * The prices of corn, soybeans, tripled. *That didn't cause the world to come to an end. * It hardly even had any effect on overall inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Corn is about 3.60 a bushel I remeber in 1980s when it was around 3.20, its averaged 2.30-3.00 since 02 with only recent records years ago, its not 300% higher now than average long term prices its not near 7.50 like in 08. 3.60 is dirt cheap compared to long term inflation. |
#23
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 30, 1:08*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:25*am, wrote: On Jun 30, 7:20*am, " wrote: On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. Mr. Optimism speaks again. * *I can foresee a situation with a mid east military action, eg Israel bombs Iran's nukes and does what the UN and Obama, despite his apollogy tour, obviously can't. * But would that result in a wider war? * Probably not, because most of the Arab countries don't want Iran to have nukes either. * Would it result in an oil embargo? * Unlikely. *The Arab oil countries are like junkies and need our money just as bad as we need their oil. *They need cash flow to support all their construction, industrialization, and govt projects. Also, they are heavily invested in the West and the resultant hair cut in their investment value would in effect be like punishing themselves this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Food prices already skyrocketed because the government subsidies diverted grains to ethanol production. * The prices of corn, soybeans, tripled. *That didn't cause the world to come to an end. * It hardly even had any effect on overall inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Corn is about 3.60 a bushel I remeber in 1980s when it was around 3.20, its averaged 2.30-3.00 since 02 with only recent records years ago, its not 300% higher now than average long term prices its not near 7.50 like in 08. 3.60 is dirt cheap compared to long term inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Here's the monthly price charts of corn and soybeans: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/SB/M From 2001 to 2006 corn averaged under $2.50 a bushel. When the subsidies for biofuels kicked in, it rose to $7.50 by 2008. For the last year and a a half, it's averaged $3.75, which is 50% higher than it was before the ethanol subsidies. Soybeans averaged around $6.25 from 2001 to 2006. They skyrocketed to $16 in 2008 as the biofuel subsidies increased demand. Currently, they are averaging around $10. Besides the fact that both the ethanol and the biodiesel produced from these crops costs more than either gasoline or diesel, how much has the increase in these grain prices cost consumers from increased prices of everything from beef to cornflakes? This price impact and the effects it has had is not something theoretical. Even charity organizations delivering food to third world countries have been very public about the impact it is having on less food being available. And those price increases and money poured down the drain is in addition to all the Govt subsidies that someone will have to pay for somday. We're not paying for it now, because Obama is simply running up $1Tril deficits for the next decade. The question is, for the small benefit, it is worth the total cost in terms of higher food prices, higher fuel prices, bigger deficits, rising food prices, and less food so more people will starve in poor countries. |
#24
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 29, 10:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , wrote: Exactly. * Just because the government hands out subsidies, it doesn't change something that is economically unviable into something that is. * *Take a look at what's going on with solar electric here in NJ. * With all the subsidies between the feds and state, a $50K residential 6KW system can cost the homeowner only $25K to put in. The rest of that comes from the taxpayers and a surcharge placed on everyones electric bill. * *And after that, the power companies here are being forced to buy clean energy credits to meet their clean energy reqts, so you can get a few thousand a year in income on top of it. * *The only problem is, it only works with small numbers of people doing it. *Which in turn means it can't amount to any substantial real impact on generating electricity to change anything. * If more people did it, there would not be enough money to subsidize it. *That is the paradox. My take on this is that technology becomes substantially less expensive (IOW more economically viable) with increases in volume. Economies of scale, and continued refinement and improvement. So the gov't subsidies are a way, hopefully, to kick-start the alternative energy R&D and help to scale up production methods to the efficient level. I think this is a good example of the principle: Not everyone is aware that they have Apple to thank for low-cost LCD computer displays (and now LCD TVs.) Apple committed to LCDs by discontinuing all CRT displays a number of years ago. The first computer I bought for my son had a 17" LCD display that cost $800. Apple created an instant demand for millions of LCD displays, and single-handedly drove the cost down. It's just nonsense that Apple single handedly drove down the cost of LCD displays. That technology goes not only into computer displays, but into TVs, cell phones, DVD players, and a boat load of similar stuff. If the displays were not already competitive, there is no way Apple could have bouth them and bundled them with a system and sold them. At the time they first became more reasonably priced, you could get one from any PC company, not just Apple. Why is it that LCDs are so special and required Apples help, when in fact every other PC component, whether a CPU, a hard drive, a flash drive, DVD drive, etc has also followed a similar cost reduction curve? It takes a small but significant commitment to a technology to make it economically viable. I think it's reasonable for the government to subsidize that commitment. There is nothing small about investments in coming up with new technology and then making it cost effective. Take that new fuel cell startup that was on 60 mins. I think the total required is going to be over $1/2bil. And for every 100 new technology ideas, how many do you think eventually succeed? It's also a mistake to think that the cost reductions associated with certain kind of technologies that can scale tremendously can automatically be applied to all industries, eg generating energy from coal or wind or God knows what. I fail to see a reason why a windmill will ever scale down in cost like your LCD or a semiconductor chip. There are certain obvious limitation on physics that come into play here. As for picking which technologies will succeed and are worthy of devoting capital too, we already have a free market system for that. It's called venture capital. It's what produced companies like Apple, Intel and MSFT. If you have a sound idea, a good business plan, and good managers, there are plenty of venture capitalist looking for the next Ebay or Intel. And I'd put a lot more faith in them being able to predict the winners and put the money in the right place, rather than my Congressman or Obama. I find it strange that polls show the approval rating of Congress at 18%, yet some people want them to run more. |
#25
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 30, 3:31*pm, wrote:
On Jun 30, 1:08*pm, ransley wrote: On Jun 30, 11:25*am, wrote: On Jun 30, 7:20*am, " wrote: On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. Mr. Optimism speaks again. * *I can foresee a situation with a mid east military action, eg Israel bombs Iran's nukes and does what the UN and Obama, despite his apollogy tour, obviously can't. * But would that result in a wider war? * Probably not, because most of the Arab countries don't want Iran to have nukes either. * Would it result in an oil embargo? * Unlikely. *The Arab oil countries are like junkies and need our money just as bad as we need their oil. *They need cash flow to support all their construction, industrialization, and govt projects. Also, they are heavily invested in the West and the resultant hair cut in their investment value would in effect be like punishing themselves this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Food prices already skyrocketed because the government subsidies diverted grains to ethanol production. * The prices of corn, soybeans, tripled. *That didn't cause the world to come to an end. * It hardly even had any effect on overall inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Corn is about 3.60 a bushel I remeber in 1980s when it was around 3.20, its averaged 2.30-3.00 since 02 with only recent records years ago, its not 300% higher now than average long term prices its not near 7.50 like in 08. 3.60 is dirt cheap compared to long term inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Here's the monthly price charts of corn and soybeans: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/cha...com/chart/SB/M From 2001 to 2006 corn averaged under $2.50 a bushel. *When the subsidies for biofuels kicked in, it rose to $7.50 by 2008. * For the last year and a a half, it's averaged $3.75, which is 50% higher than it was before the ethanol subsidies. * Soybeans averaged around $6.25 from 2001 to 2006. * They skyrocketed to $16 in 2008 as the biofuel subsidies increased demand. * Currently, they are averaging around $10. * Besides the fact that both the ethanol and the biodiesel produced from these crops costs more than either gasoline or diesel, how much has the increase in these grain prices cost consumers from increased prices of everything from beef to cornflakes? This price impact and the effects it has had is not something theoretical. *Even charity organizations delivering food to third world countries have been very public about the impact it is having on less food being available. And those price increases and money poured down the drain is in addition to all the Govt subsidies that someone will have to pay for somday. *We're not paying for it now, because Obama is simply running up $1Tril deficits for the next decade. *The question is, for the small benefit, it is worth the total cost in terms of higher food prices, higher fuel prices, bigger deficits, rising food prices, and less food so more people will starve in poor countries.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Beans went way up in 08, but look back 40 years about every 5 years or so they hit 9$, you didnt take any inflation into account over 40 years or costs to run a farm on fuel and fuel based fertiliser, its isnt all alcohol related. Alot of alcohol plants are bust and closed that I know of. |
#26
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
On Jun 30, 5:23*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jun 30, 3:31*pm, wrote: On Jun 30, 1:08*pm, ransley wrote: On Jun 30, 11:25*am, wrote: On Jun 30, 7:20*am, " wrote: On Jun 29, 4:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote: ransley wrote: Every time, EVERY TIME, the government interferes in the general marketplace, one of two things happens: 1. The general marketplace flows around the government obstruction, or 2. The general marketplace is FUBAR. In the instant case, the government mandating, encouraging, or subsidizing NG, solar power, or foot-pedaled cars is eerily similar to the government genuflecting over our soy-bean saviors in a classic book whose title rhymes with "Mattress Bugged." What is the alternative. In my view, the government should step back from the energy business. Consider the infrastructure for gasoline and diesel vehicles. 50,000 gas stations didn't spring up overnight; they were constructed to meet the demand. It would be likewise for other vehicle fuels: NG, Propane, electric, nuclear, whatever. The simple fact is that the government can't create a demand without penalizing the majority of folks - even if it IS for our own good (according to our betters). As for the moaning about what will happen when oil runs out, there's a war in the middle east, etc., if you had asked a New Yorker in 1900 what would transportation be like in a 100 years when the population increased twenty-fold, he'd ask: 1) Where would we get all the horses? and 2) What would we do with all the horse ****? These potential problems, most problems, indeed, all problems, have a way of working themselves out. well the coming miid east war will crash and burn our economy thats already very ill......... can you imagine mid east oil cut off and gasoline at 10 or 12 bucks a gallon? people will be forced to buy gas to go to work and cut discretionary spending to the bone, economic dump. we have already seen this, as gasoline crept near 5 bucks a gallon our current economic dump began. well just imagine twice that or no gasoline at all. Mr. Optimism speaks again. * *I can foresee a situation with a mid east military action, eg Israel bombs Iran's nukes and does what the UN and Obama, despite his apollogy tour, obviously can't. * But would that result in a wider war? * Probably not, because most of the Arab countries don't want Iran to have nukes either. * Would it result in an oil embargo? * Unlikely. *The Arab oil countries are like junkies and need our money just as bad as we need their oil. *They need cash flow to support all their construction, industrialization, and govt projects. Also, they are heavily invested in the West and the resultant hair cut in their investment value would in effect be like punishing themselves this situation is yet another government failure brough to us by our incompetent congress thats bought and sold by lobbyists......... most farming is mechanized, in a crude oil shortage food prices will skyrocket- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Food prices already skyrocketed because the government subsidies diverted grains to ethanol production. * The prices of corn, soybeans, tripled. *That didn't cause the world to come to an end. * It hardly even had any effect on overall inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Corn is about 3.60 a bushel I remeber in 1980s when it was around 3.20, its averaged 2.30-3.00 since 02 with only recent records years ago, its not 300% higher now than average long term prices its not near 7.50 like in 08. 3.60 is dirt cheap compared to long term inflation.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Here's the monthly price charts of corn and soybeans: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/cha...es.tradingchar... From 2001 to 2006 corn averaged under $2.50 a bushel. *When the subsidies for biofuels kicked in, it rose to $7.50 by 2008. * For the last year and a a half, it's averaged $3.75, which is 50% higher than it was before the ethanol subsidies. * Soybeans averaged around $6.25 from 2001 to 2006. * They skyrocketed to $16 in 2008 as the biofuel subsidies increased demand. * Currently, they are averaging around $10. * Besides the fact that both the ethanol and the biodiesel produced from these crops costs more than either gasoline or diesel, how much has the increase in these grain prices cost consumers from increased prices of everything from beef to cornflakes? This price impact and the effects it has had is not something theoretical. *Even charity organizations delivering food to third world countries have been very public about the impact it is having on less food being available. And those price increases and money poured down the drain is in addition to all the Govt subsidies that someone will have to pay for somday. *We're not paying for it now, because Obama is simply running up $1Tril deficits for the next decade. *The question is, for the small benefit, it is worth the total cost in terms of higher food prices, higher fuel prices, bigger deficits, rising food prices, and less food so more people will starve in poor countries.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Beans went way up in 08, but look back 40 years *about every 5 years or so they hit 9$, you didnt take any inflation into account over 40 years or costs to run a farm on fuel and fuel based fertiliser, its isnt all alcohol related. Alot of alcohol plants are bust and closed that I know of.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - alcohol can be made from biomass, think lawn clippings etc. far better choice |
#27
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Fueling your car with natural gas from home
|
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|