I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

On 5/31/2010 1:50 PM J Burns spake thus:

I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

There was, and I *think*(TM)(R) it simply involved making splices using
approved methods (like Western Union splices) and covering them with
insulating tape. I don't think such connections had to be inside a
junction box, as they would today.

But I could be wrong.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...seboxlocat.jpg

"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

When I was 12 years old we lived in an old (1900) house. It had K & T wiring
and screw fuses. One day a damper motor on the furnace overheated and set
the ceiling on fire. I called fire department. Parents were both at work
trying to exist in the depression. Fire Chief asked where the fuse box was.
I showed him and which fuse was on that circuit. He said here is the
problem, there is a 15 amp fuse and it should have been a 30 amp. Hello...
I knew better than that. Later years I worked on trouble shooting for a
utility company. Had a call on an old house that dining room light would not
work. Found screw fuse bad. Replaced fuse to check and it blew. The owner
said the room had just been painted and painter remove the overhead fixture
but he replaced it when paint was dry. I pulled the fixture and found all 4
wires, hot and ground twisted together with one wire nut. Corrected that. On
fuse panels on all calls I always removed all fuses to check for any arching
on center contact. On this house one fuse had an Indian head penny under it.
Lucky it was not the circuit that the fixture was on. Who knows how long
that had been there. WW

"WW" wrote in message
...

"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

When I was 12 years old we lived in an old (1900) house. It had K & T
wiring and screw fuses. One day a damper motor on the furnace overheated
and set the ceiling on fire. I called fire department. Parents were both
at work trying to exist in the depression. Fire Chief asked where the fuse
box was. I showed him and which fuse was on that circuit. He said here is
the problem, there is a 15 amp fuse and it should have been a 30 amp.
Hello... I knew better than that. Later years I worked on trouble shooting
for a utility company. Had a call on an old house that dining room light
would not work. Found screw fuse bad. Replaced fuse to check and it blew.
The owner said the room had just been painted and painter remove the
overhead fixture but he replaced it when paint was dry. I pulled the
fixture and found all 4 wires, hot and ground twisted together with one
wire nut. Corrected that. On fuse panels on all calls I always removed all
fuses to check for any arching on center contact. On this house one fuse
had an Indian head penny under it. Lucky it was not the circuit that the
fixture was on. Who knows how long that had been there. WW
The 30 amp fuse on the 15 amp circuit, and the penny under the fuse, may not
have been exactly improper. Those old panels had fuses on the neutrals,
which can be very dangerous. Ultimately those fuses were replaced with solid
brass fuse plugs, but I'm sure penny's worked just as well.

I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?


*You are better off not touching the K&T wiring. If it works, leave it
alone. If you want to add outlets run new home runs.

RBM wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...seboxlocat.jpg



Thanks. Comments by others are interesting, too.

In the 1980s, my parents moved into a house where they wanted grounded
outlets, more outlets, and fluorescent lights. Cables went from the
breaker box to junction boxes in the attic, but much of the lighting was
on K&T.

Instead of making connections to K&T, I was removing it. I wasn't aware
that the insulation was unreliable, so I didn't think about how the
electrician who had installed the junction boxes had made safe
connections to existing K&T.

On May 31, 5:33*pm, "RBM" wrote:


Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

Hmmm. So one of the left "feeders" is hot, and the other neutral, and
the right-hand wires are pairs of hots and neutral, all fused? That's
interesting. I'll assume that this is a property you worked on and
that this is what you found.

Just looking at the picture, I'd have guessed that two feeders were
two hot legs of a 240/120 supply, feeding three pairs of fuses, with
the fused wires going out on the right. The other side of the circuits
would likely run back to the service entrance, unfused, and go nowhere
near the box.

What really stands out for me, whichever it is, is that each of the
left-hand wires are each feeding (or being fed by) three fused legs
but aren't noticeably heavier gauge. If they're feeding three 20-A
circuits (orange fuses) they ought to be, by our standards, 8 ga or
heavier. Was this in fact the case?

Chip C
Toronto

"Chip C" wrote in message
...
On May 31, 5:33 pm, "RBM" wrote:


Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts
in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon
when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

Hmmm. So one of the left "feeders" is hot, and the other neutral, and
the right-hand wires are pairs of hots and neutral, all fused? That's
interesting. I'll assume that this is a property you worked on and
that this is what you found.

Just looking at the picture, I'd have guessed that two feeders were
two hot legs of a 240/120 supply, feeding three pairs of fuses, with
the fused wires going out on the right. The other side of the circuits
would likely run back to the service entrance, unfused, and go nowhere
near the box.

What really stands out for me, whichever it is, is that each of the
left-hand wires are each feeding (or being fed by) three fused legs
but aren't noticeably heavier gauge. If they're feeding three 20-A
circuits (orange fuses) they ought to be, by our standards, 8 ga or
heavier. Was this in fact the case?

Chip C
Toronto

The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six wires
on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each circuit
has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals should have
been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later date. The entire
house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the service panel. It
and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are located in the attic,
which was also very typical.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...icedisconn.jpg

On May 31, 4:50�pm, J Burns wrote:
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. �(A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. �Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a
piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts
in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon
when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

Hmmm. So one of the left "feeders" is hot, and the other neutral, and
the right-hand wires are pairs of hots and neutral, all fused? That's
interesting. I'll assume that this is a property you worked on and
that this is what you found.

Just looking at the picture, I'd have guessed that two feeders were
two hot legs of a 240/120 supply, feeding three pairs of fuses, with
the fused wires going out on the right. The other side of the circuits
would likely run back to the service entrance, unfused, and go nowhere
near the box.

What really stands out for me, whichever it is, is that each of the
left-hand wires are each feeding (or being fed by) three fused legs
but aren't noticeably heavier gauge. If they're feeding three 20-A
circuits (orange fuses) they ought to be, by our standards, 8 ga or
heavier. Was this in fact the case?

Chip C
Toronto

The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six wires
on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each circuit
has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals should
have been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later date. The
entire house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the service
panel. It and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are located in
the attic, which was also very typical.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...icedisconn.jpg



*Roy is that an asbestos lined wooden box?

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a
piece
of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into knockouts
in
the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder depending upon
when
it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse box. Notice the fused
neutrals:http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

Hmmm. So one of the left "feeders" is hot, and the other neutral, and
the right-hand wires are pairs of hots and neutral, all fused? That's
interesting. I'll assume that this is a property you worked on and
that this is what you found.

Just looking at the picture, I'd have guessed that two feeders were
two hot legs of a 240/120 supply, feeding three pairs of fuses, with
the fused wires going out on the right. The other side of the circuits
would likely run back to the service entrance, unfused, and go nowhere
near the box.

What really stands out for me, whichever it is, is that each of the
left-hand wires are each feeding (or being fed by) three fused legs
but aren't noticeably heavier gauge. If they're feeding three 20-A
circuits (orange fuses) they ought to be, by our standards, 8 ga or
heavier. Was this in fact the case?

Chip C
Toronto

The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six
wires on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each
circuit has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals
should have been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later
date. The entire house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the
service panel. It and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are
located in the attic, which was also very typical.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...icedisconn.jpg



*Roy is that an asbestos lined wooden box?

It most certainly is. Both boxes are lined with 1/4" asbestos panels

On 6/1/2010 2:09 PM RBM spake thus:

The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six wires
on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each circuit
has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals should have
been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later date. The entire
house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the service panel. It
and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are located in the attic,
which was also very typical.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...icedisconn.jpg

My friend has exactly the same setup in his ca.-1920 house: 4 pairs of
fuses, hot & neutral, inside an asbestos-lined wooden box.

He solved the problem neatly by simply overfusing the neutrals: I think
he has 30 amp fuses on that side, and he put 15-amp circuit breaker
replacement fuses on the hot side. The lower-current breakers will
always trip before the higher-current fuses blow.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Jun 1, 7:32*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/1/2010 2:09 PM RBM spake thus:



The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six wires
on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each circuit
has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals should have
been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later date. The entire
house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the service panel. It
and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are located in the attic,
which was also very typical.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

My friend has exactly the same setup in his ca.-1920 house: 4 pairs of
fuses, hot & neutral, inside an asbestos-lined wooden box.

He solved the problem neatly by simply overfusing the neutrals: I think
he has 30 amp fuses on that side, and he put 15-amp circuit breaker
replacement fuses on the hot side. The lower-current breakers will
always trip before the higher-current fuses blow.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Geez my grandfather had a box like that in his workshop but his was
slate lined.

Jimmie

wrote:
On May 31, 4:50�pm, J Burns wrote:
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. �(A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. �Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Why should I do that? Do you think no homes with K&T are insured? I've
gotten policies from three companies for homes with K&T.

Cable became popular in the 1940s to save labor, but I'll bet K&T was
safer.

I believe the NEC requires an inspection after loose insulation is put
into a space with K&T. CA and WA dropped that requirement because not a
single fire had resulted from insulation on K&T.

"J Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On May 31, 4:50?pm, J Burns wrote:
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. ?(A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. ?Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Why should I do that? Do you think no homes with K&T are insured? I've
gotten policies from three companies for homes with K&T.

Cable became popular in the 1940s to save labor, but I'll bet K&T was
safer.

I believe the NEC requires an inspection after loose insulation is put
into a space with K&T. CA and WA dropped that requirement because not a
single fire had resulted from insulation on K&T.


I'm afraid you might have just pushed Hallerb over the edge

On Jun 1, 6:08*pm, " wrote:
On May 31, 4:50 pm, J Burns wrote:

I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Insurance companies don't generally ask what kind of wiring you have.

I have friends wqho attempted to sell homes with K&T no buyers could
get a new homeowners policy. one person never did sell.

my best friend found he could get a big savings by combining
homeowners with car insurance.

State Farm refused to sell him a policy. Not only over K&T but his
highly detoriated and patched front steps. the steps are different
heights thanks to the patching.

hey its your money and your hassle when you cant get a buyer. so enjoy
your K&T.

incidently several years ago my buddy with K&T smeled something hot,
and found a connection frying in the cieling.

On 6/2/2010 1:37 AM, J Burns wrote:
wrote:
On May 31, 4:50�pm, J Burns wrote:
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. �(A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. �Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Why should I do that? Do you think no homes with K&T are insured? I've
gotten policies from three companies for homes with K&T.

Cable became popular in the 1940s to save labor, but I'll bet K&T was
safer.

I believe the NEC requires an inspection after loose insulation is put
into a space with K&T. CA and WA dropped that requirement because not a
single fire had resulted from insulation on K&T.

Yes, and i've got 4 rentals with K&T in them. I even asked my agent
about it. He said they could care less. It's not a hazard. And yes,
there's blown cellulose on top of it in the attic and down the walls.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/2/2010 1:37 AM, J Burns wrote:
wrote:
On May 31, 4:50�pm, J Burns wrote:
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. �(A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. �Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Why should I do that? Do you think no homes with K&T are insured? I've
gotten policies from three companies for homes with K&T.

Cable became popular in the 1940s to save labor, but I'll bet K&T was
safer.

I believe the NEC requires an inspection after loose insulation is put
into a space with K&T. CA and WA dropped that requirement because not a
single fire had resulted from insulation on K&T.

And yes, we've been down this road with haller****ingb a million times
about his fantasy "no insurance with K&T wiring" stories.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/2/2010 8:27 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 1, 6:08 pm, wrote:
On May 31, 4:50 pm, J wrote:

I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K& T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Insurance companies don't generally ask what kind of wiring you have.

I've NEVER had one ask. I had to ask them. And they said no problem.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/2/2010 8:51 AM, wrote:
I have friends wqho attempted to sell homes with K&T no buyers could
get a new homeowners policy. one person never did sell.

my best friend found he could get a big savings by combining
homeowners with car insurance.

State Farm refused to sell him a policy. Not only over K&T but his
highly detoriated and patched front steps. the steps are different
heights thanks to the patching.

hey its your money and your hassle when you cant get a buyer. so enjoy
your K&T.

incidently several years ago my buddy with K&T smeled something hot,
and found a connection frying in the cieling.


BS, I don't believe a word you wrote.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jun 2, 10:32�am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/2/2010 8:51 AM, wrote:





I have friends wqho attempted to sell homes with K&T no buyers could
get a new homeowners policy. one person never did sell.

my best friend found he could get a big savings by combining
homeowners with car insurance.

State Farm refused to sell him a policy. Not only over K&T but his
highly detoriated and patched front steps. the steps are different
heights thanks to the patching.

hey its your money and your hassle when you cant get a buyer. so enjoy
your K&T.

incidently several years ago my buddy with K&T smeled something hot,
and found a connection frying in the cieling.

BS, �I don't believe a word you wrote.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

it doesnt effect me at all.......

perhaps its a local issue? i dont know

On Jun 1, 5:09*pm, "RBM" wrote:


The two wires on the left are feeding the panel. They're #10 conductors,
they're sleeved through loom, one is neutral and one is hot. The six wires
on the right are #14 conductors sleeved through loom as well. Each circuit
has a fuse on both hot and neutral. All of those fused neutrals should have
been corrected with solid brass fuse plugs at some later date. The entire
house was fed by a 30 amp 120 volt service. This is the service panel. It
and the main disconnect panel, which I'll link to are located in the attic,
which was also very typical.http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat...

Fascinating. Great pics!

Chip C

wrote:
I have friends wqho attempted to sell homes with K&T no buyers could
get a new homeowners policy. one person never did sell.

How did the others sell? Some companies won't insure with K&T, but if
no buyers could get policies, perhaps inspectors had found specific
problems. For example, K&T rated for 15 amps might be connected to a
circuit protected by a 20-amp breaker. Some K&T wiring has the neutral
side switched. Some may have splices in walls.


my best friend found he could get a big savings by combining
homeowners with car insurance.

State Farm refused to sell him a policy. Not only over K&T but his
highly detoriated and patched front steps. the steps are different
heights thanks to the patching.

Steps that are not equal are dangerous.

Last year I got a refusal-to-renew notice because an inspector had swung
buy and seen peeling paint on the fascia board of a 10x12 open shed, a
crack (60 years old) in the wall of my cement garage, and lifting
shingles.

My agent immediately found me cheaper coverage from a company with
higher ratings.

The five missing shingle tabs had disappeared on a day of 60-mph
sustained winds. I had assumed this meant I'd have to reroof soon. I
discovered that the roofing was still pretty good. The broken shingles
were easy to replace.

hey its your money and your hassle when you cant get a buyer. so enjoy
your K&T.

incidently several years ago my buddy with K&T smeled something hot,
and found a connection frying in the cieling.

Was disaster imminent? K&T uses air to prevent shorts and dissipate
heat in the event of a hot connection.

On Jun 2, 10:36*am, " wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:32 am, Steve Barker wrote:



On 6/2/2010 8:51 AM, wrote:

I have friends wqho attempted to sell homes with K&T no buyers could
get a new homeowners policy. one person never did sell.

my best friend found he could get a big savings by combining
homeowners with car insurance.

State Farm refused to sell him a policy. Not only over K&T but his
highly detoriated and patched front steps. the steps are different
heights thanks to the patching.

hey its your money and your hassle when you cant get a buyer. so enjoy
your K&T.

incidently several years ago my buddy with K&T smeled something hot,
and found a connection frying in the cieling.

BS, I don't believe a word you wrote.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

it doesnt effect me at all.......

perhaps its a local issue? i dont know

Seems to be local/regional, and maybe come and go in some kind of
fashion swing. When we got insurance on our Toronto place in 2003,
several insurers declined to cover a K&T property; one major insurer
would do so only if we had it home-inspected by a particular (large,
well-established) home inspection firm.

So it's real for some people, in some places, at some times. And
apparently not so for others.

Some years prior the big thing was exposed "insul-brick", this roll-
asphalt fake-brick stuff that got applied over the clapboards of
essentially every house in the city sometime in the prior 50 years.
Couldn't find an insurer to cover a house with the stuff -- after
signing the offer to purchase. So we got the seller to agree to let
us, at our expense, have aluminum siding installed over it, prior to
closing. Obviously a risk that should the deal fail to close, we've
paid to improve someone else's house. Ehh, you take some chances.

Chip

If you owned a insurance company would you want to insure homes in
poor condition? thus putting you at greater risk to pay claims?

remember homeowners insurance is pretty cheap.

600 bucks a year to insure a home and contents worth easily over
$200,000.00 and perhaps far more

On Jun 2, 4:25*pm, " wrote:
If you owned a insurance company would you want to insure homes in
poor condition? thus putting you at greater risk to pay claims?

remember homeowners insurance is pretty cheap.

600 bucks a year to insure a home *and contents worth easily over
$200,000.00 and perhaps far more

$300K, plus $150K contents, plus $300K liability. Yep, pretty cheap.

On Jun 2, 10:31*am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/2/2010 8:27 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:



On Jun 1, 6:08 pm, *wrote:
On May 31, 4:50 pm, J *wrote:

I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as cables,
but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner who needed
to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old wiring adequate
in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K& *T to a cable?

CALL some home owner insurance companies ASK if they will insure a new
customer with K&T. Please report back here your findings.

if they wouldnt sell new policies you might as well replace ALL the
K&T since its impossible to get a mortage without homeowners insurance

Insurance companies don't generally ask what kind of wiring you have.

I've NEVER had one ask. *I had to ask them. *And they said no problem..

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email


Its not so much in what they don't ask, it is more about the list of
exclusions
in the policy coverages that MOST consumers never read and are baffled
when some claim is denied...

Read all several hundred pages of your insurance policy contract
including
all of the fine print before you start making statements you really
can not
prove that are sweeping generalizations about insurance policies that
are
incorrect and not valid...

~~ Evan

J Burns wrote:
RBM wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as
cables, but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. (A homeowner
who needed to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old
wiring adequate in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a
piece of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into
knockouts in the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder
depending upon when it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse
box. Notice the fused neutrals:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...seboxlocat.jpg



Thanks. Comments by others are interesting, too.

In the 1980s, my parents moved into a house where they wanted grounded
outlets, more outlets, and fluorescent lights. Cables went from the
breaker box to junction boxes in the attic, but much of the lighting was
on K&T.

Instead of making connections to K&T, I was removing it. I wasn't aware
that the insulation was unreliable, so I didn't think about how the
electrician who had installed the junction boxes had made safe
connections to existing K&T.

The K&T I have run across has insulation that is in good condition after
all these years. The exception is at light fixtures, where the heat of
the lamp, or especially a ballast, has raised the electrical insulation
temperature far beyond what was intended. The same problem happens with
BX, and other wiring.

K&T is actually still in the NEC (article 394 - with very limited use)
and is intended to be concealed (some exceptions in attics).

The refeed I have seen is to put a j-box near the knobs and run wires
into a box with "loom" over the wire from the knob to inside the box.
RBM's picture show loom. I have seen the loom just go through a knockout
(preferable both wires through the same knockout). The K&T is spliced
inside the box to Romex, or some other wiring system.

--
bud--

On Jun 3, 3:01�pm, bud-- wrote:
J Burns wrote:
RBM wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message
...
I've seen old houses where all circuits enter the breaker box as
cables, but some rooms still have knob-and-tube wiring. �(A homeowner
who needed to upgrade wiring for his kitchen may have found the old
wiring adequate in a bedroom.)

That leads to a question that didn't occur to me before. �Was there a
proper way to connect K & T to a cable?

Originally, the K&T would have entered the fuse panel through screw in
ceramic insulators. When that panel was replaced they probably ran a
piece of BX cable to a junction box, and ran the K&T insulators into
knockouts in the J box, then either spliced with wire nuts or solder
depending upon when it was done. Here is a picture of an old K&T fuse
box. Notice the fused neutrals:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b9...ause%20renovat....

Thanks. �Comments by others are interesting, too.

In the 1980s, my parents moved into a house where they wanted grounded
outlets, more outlets, and fluorescent lights. �Cables went from the
breaker box to junction boxes in the attic, but much of the lighting was
on K&T.

Instead of making connections to K&T, I was removing it. �I wasn't aware
that the insulation was unreliable, so I didn't think about how the
electrician who had installed the junction boxes had made safe
connections to existing K&T.

The K&T I have run across has insulation that is in good condition after
all these years. The exception is at light fixtures, where the heat of
the lamp, or especially a ballast, has raised the electrical insulation
temperature far beyond what was intended. The same problem happens with
BX, and other wiring.

K&T is actually still in the NEC (article 394 - with very limited use)
and is intended to be concealed (some exceptions in attics).

The refeed I have seen is to put a j-box near the knobs and run wires
into a box with "loom" over the wire from the knob to inside the box.
RBM's picture show loom. I have seen the loom just go through a knockout
(preferable both wires through the same knockout). The K&T is spliced
inside the box to Romex, or some other wiring system.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

with K&T concealed in walls how can you be CERTAIN its in good shape?
theres no way to see it unless you open the wall, and once you do you
might as well just replace the K&T

I helped gut a friends fire damaged home. It was amazing the bad
wiring I found in the walls.

The owners finally agreed to a complete rewire.

the fire wasnt electrical, a cat knocked over a lamp the damage to the
home 135,000 exceeded the homes value by far.

sadly their old homeowners insurance had been canceled when their
insurer went out of business. K&T, bad roof, broken sidewalks etc etc.
they had forced place insurance on structure only, and lost much of
their possesions

On 6/4/2010 11:07 AM J Burns spake thus:

bud-- wrote:

The K&T I have run across has insulation that is in good condition after
all these years. The exception is at light fixtures, where the heat of
the lamp, or especially a ballast, has raised the electrical insulation
temperature far beyond what was intended. The same problem happens with
BX, and other wiring.

K&T is actually still in the NEC (article 394 - with very limited use)
and is intended to be concealed (some exceptions in attics).

The refeed I have seen is to put a j-box near the knobs and run wires
into a box with "loom" over the wire from the knob to inside the box.
RBM's picture show loom. I have seen the loom just go through a knockout
(preferable both wires through the same knockout). The K&T is spliced
inside the box to Romex, or some other wiring system.

The house my grandfather owned has a pair of light switches inside the
front door. They still work fine after nearly 90 years. By coincidence
my other grandfather, 1,000 miles away, invented those switches.

I might want to replace the K&T to the two ceiling lights but not to the
switches. (It's an exterior wall, and anyway I don't want to tamper
with the switches.)

Using "loom" to run K&T into a j-box could be just the thing for me. I
imagine the material shouldn't crumble or support a flame. Where could
I find loom material?

Damn good question. Me, I collect loom from places where I tear out old
K&T--knobs and tubes, too. So far I haven't found any use for the knobs,
but the tubes make a dandy way to connect K&T wire to junction boxes:
cut them short and insert them into NM clamps. I consider this an even
better way to connect than using loom, which is softer and easier to break.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Jun 4, 5:30�pm, "RBM" wrote:
"J Burns" wrote in message

...





bud-- wrote:

The K&T I have run across has insulation that is in good condition after
all these years. The exception is at light fixtures, where the heat of
the lamp, or especially a ballast, has raised the electrical insulation
temperature far beyond what was intended. The same problem happens with
BX, and other wiring.

K&T is actually still in the NEC (article 394 - with very limited use)
and is intended to be concealed (some exceptions in attics).

The refeed I have seen is to put a j-box near the knobs and run wires
into a box with "loom" over the wire from the knob to inside the box.
RBM's picture show loom. I have seen the loom just go through a knockout
(preferable both wires through the same knockout). The K&T is spliced
inside the box to Romex, or some other wiring system.

The house my grandfather owned has a pair of light switches inside the
front door. �They still work fine after nearly 90 years. �By coincidence
my other grandfather, 1,000 miles away, invented those switches.

I might want to replace the K&T to the two ceiling lights but not to the
switches. �(It's an exterior wall, and anyway I don't want to tamper with
the switches.)

Using "loom" to run K&T into a j-box could be just the thing for me. �I
imagine the material shouldn't crumble or support a flame. �Where could I
find loom material?

Strangely, on jobs where I've removed K&T wiring, the loom is in terrible
shape, completely dried out and brittle, unlike the wire which in most
cases, is in near perfect condition. As Bud mentions, it's usually only bad
where it's been installed in or near fixtures that got very hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well ultimately everyone here will find out which way things go at
home resale time. and certinally no one should ever buy a new vehicle
to get a safer one. who needs seat belts? air bags? etc?

my friends that tried to sell? one decided to remain in the home, the
balance either paid to have a rewire before the sale completed, or
gave a big discount to pay the buyer for the upgrade.

the trouble with waiting???

what you do before you put home on market is your business, once its
for sale its registered bonded electricians plumbers etc.

if you do a good job on a rewire beforee sale you can save a ton of
bucks.

things have changed dramatically in the last 5 years, homeowner
companies aqre super risk adverse

On 06/04/2010 10:29 PM, wrote:
On Jun 4, 5:30�pm, wrote:
"J wrote in message

...





bud-- wrote:

The K&T I have run across has insulation that is in good condition after
all these years. The exception is at light fixtures, where the heat of
the lamp, or especially a ballast, has raised the electrical insulation
temperature far beyond what was intended. The same problem happens with
BX, and other wiring.

K&T is actually still in the NEC (article 394 - with very limited use)
and is intended to be concealed (some exceptions in attics).

The refeed I have seen is to put a j-box near the knobs and run wires
into a box with "loom" over the wire from the knob to inside the box.
RBM's picture show loom. I have seen the loom just go through a knockout
(preferable both wires through the same knockout). The K&T is spliced
inside the box to Romex, or some other wiring system.

The house my grandfather owned has a pair of light switches inside the
front door. �They still work fine after nearly 90 years. �By coincidence
my other grandfather, 1,000 miles away, invented those switches.

I might want to replace the K&T to the two ceiling lights but not to the
switches. �(It's an exterior wall, and anyway I don't want to tamper with
the switches.)

Using "loom" to run K&T into a j-box could be just the thing for me. �I
imagine the material shouldn't crumble or support a flame. �Where could I
find loom material?

Strangely, on jobs where I've removed K&T wiring, the loom is in terrible
shape, completely dried out and brittle, unlike the wire which in most
cases, is in near perfect condition. As Bud mentions, it's usually only bad
where it's been installed in or near fixtures that got very hot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well ultimately everyone here will find out which way things go at
home resale time. and certinally no one should ever buy a new vehicle
to get a safer one. who needs seat belts? air bags? etc?

If you're not a ****ty driver, buying a new car just to get a safer one
is a spectacularly bad deal. Most of the best bang-for-your-buck safety
improvements were made mandatory long before most of the cars still on
the road today were built - I'm talking late 60's, early 70's here.

That said, I'd still feel way safer in, say, an 80's Mercedes-Benz or
Porsche than I would in a new tin can. There's a big difference in
quality...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 6/4/2010 8:15 AM, wrote:
ultimately at home resale time it doesnt matter what anyones opinion
of K&T is.

Other than the buyer, home inspector, and perspective homeowners
insurance company.

Just like main fuse panels, generally to get homeowners today they
must be upgraded for circuit breakers

Again, just not true.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jun 5, 8:41�am, Steve Barker wrote:
On 6/4/2010 8:15 AM, wrote:

ultimately at home resale time it doesnt matter what anyones opinion
of K&T is.

Other than the buyer, home inspector, and perspective homeowners
insurance company.

Just like main fuse panels, generally to get homeowners today they
must be upgraded for circuit breakers

Again, just not true.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

yeah despite posters reporting this here....... not me.

for people just reading this call a agent not your own and ask.

or wander in and ask any agency.

On 6/5/2010 8:07 AM, wrote:
On Jun 5, 8:41�am, Steve wrote:
On 6/4/2010 8:15 AM, wrote:

ultimately at home resale time it doesnt matter what anyones opinion
of K&T is.

Other than the buyer, home inspector, and perspective homeowners
insurance company.

Just like main fuse panels, generally to get homeowners today they
must be upgraded for circuit breakers

Again, just not true.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

yeah despite posters reporting this here....... not me.

for people just reading this call a agent not your own and ask.

or wander in and ask any agency.

this reminds me of a peanuts cartoon when the adults are talking. All i
hear is "blah blah blah blah"

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jun 4, 10:42
That said, I'd still feel way safer in, say, an 80's Mercedes-Benz or
Porsche than I would in a new tin can. �There's a big difference in
quality...

nate

did you see the planned crash of a 60 bel air, and a 2009 malibu.

the malibu driver would of walked away the old belair driver would of
died several times over. building new vehiclews to crush and absorb
the impact is really great engineering

remember any K&T install today is likely over a 100 years old. so it
missed all the advances along the way......

On 06/05/2010 09:23 AM, wrote:
On Jun 4, 10:42
That said, I'd still feel way safer in, say, an 80's Mercedes-Benz or
Porsche than I would in a new tin can. �There's a big difference in
quality...

nate

did you see the planned crash of a 60 bel air, and a 2009 malibu.

It was a '59, and yes. What a waste, I've driven cars that looked worse
than the one they destroyed.


the malibu driver would of walked away the old belair driver would of
died several times over. building new vehiclews to crush and absorb
the impact is really great engineering

Sure, but a car only ten years newer would have had three point belts, a
collapsible steering column, dual circuit brakes, side marker lights,
etc. etc. etc... and a '69 is way on the thin end of the bell curve as
far as cars that are likely to still be used as daily drivers today. A
'79, still on the thin end of the bell curve, would have side impact
door beams in addition to all the other stuff.

My personal vehicles are a '55, and '88, and a '93 and I don't feel
particularly unsafe in any of them, although the '55 does require a
certain amount of respect. Proper maintenance and repair at the first
sign of trouble is far more important than worrying about safety
features that God willing will never be used. Likewise, I'd consider
good tires, good shocks/struts, and properly maintained base brakes to
be more fundamental to safety than ABS or ESC, although a lot of people
seem not to think of that.

remember any K&T install today is likely over a 100 years old. so it
missed all the advances along the way......

I'm not arguing the point that the best way to deal with K&T is to
replace it at the first sign of trouble. I'm just saying that buying a
"new car for increased safety" is likely a bad deal, unless you're
*planning* on wrecking.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jun 5, 11:08�am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 06/05/2010 09:23 AM, wrote:

On Jun 4, 10:42
That said, I'd still feel way safer in, say, an 80's Mercedes-Benz or
Porsche than I would in a new tin can. There's a big difference in
quality...

nate

� did you see the planned crash of a 60 bel air, and a 2009 malibu.

It was a '59, and yes. �What a waste, I've driven cars that looked worse
than the one they destroyed.



the malibu driver would of walked away the old belair driver would of
died several times over. building new vehiclews to crush and absorb
the impact is really great engineering

Sure, but a car only ten years newer would have had three point belts, a
collapsible steering column, dual circuit brakes, side marker lights,
etc. etc. etc... �and a '69 is way on the thin end of the bell curve as
far as cars that are likely to still be used as daily drivers today. �A
'79, still on the thin end of the bell curve, would have side impact
door beams in addition to all the other stuff.

My personal vehicles are a '55, and '88, and a '93 and I don't feel
particularly unsafe in any of them, although the '55 does require a
certain amount of respect. �Proper maintenance and repair at the first
sign of trouble is far more important than worrying about safety
features that God willing will never be used. �Likewise, I'd consider
good tires, good shocks/struts, and properly maintained base brakes to
be more fundamental to safety than ABS or ESC, although a lot of people
seem not to think of that.

remember any K&T install today is likely over a 100 years old. so it
missed all the advances along the way......

I'm not arguing the point that the best way to deal with K&T is to
replace it at the first sign of trouble. �I'm just saying that buying a
"new car for increased safety" is likely a bad deal, unless you're
*planning* on wrecking.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Well a new car tends to be safer more conveient and more reliable.
Just like replaced K&T

Discussing this is like trying to explain to a friend why he needed to
replace all his galvanized water lines. the flow was terrible he
proclaimed he was patient.

leaks esclated over time, he finally gave up and replumbed after 18
patches, there was little galvanized remaing by that time.

he still claims it was better than copper.

he is now in the same situation with cast iron drain pipes.

he applies epoxy and clamps over patches claiming all is fine. his
house smells of sewer.

but his roof is 35 years old he tars leaks every spring and fall