I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

There is no minimum distance from a kitchen sink. If the outlet was
installed before GFCI protection was required, it can be a standard outlet.
If it was installed after the GFCI requirement, it must be properly
protected.

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

On May 13, 5:15*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

On 2010-05-13, hr(bob) wrote:

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but
the house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want
GFCI's near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe
distance is.

If we are talking about a kitchen sink, then all receptacles serving
kitchen countertops must be GFCI protected. On the other hand, a
receptacle can be under a kitchen sink, to serve a garbage disposal or
the dishwasher, and then it does not require GFCI protection. So for
kitchens, it's not just a simple minimum distance.

Cheers, Wayne

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

There is no minimum distance. An outlet can be right up to the sink

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-13, hr(bob) wrote:

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but
the house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want
GFCI's near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe
distance is.

If we are talking about a kitchen sink, then all receptacles serving
kitchen countertops must be GFCI protected. On the other hand, a
receptacle can be under a kitchen sink, to serve a garbage disposal or
the dishwasher, and then it does not require GFCI protection. So for
kitchens, it's not just a simple minimum distance.

Cheers, Wayne

I think you need to find out what a "house inspector's" legal jurisdiction
is. Typically there are grandfather laws. If the receptacle was installed
before GFCI protection was required, then non should be required now. As I
said earlier, current code would require more receptacles as well. Where do
you draw the line?

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the house
150 years old.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

--
aem sends...

On May 13, 6:18*pm, "Colbyt" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water source
must be GFIC protected. *A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

On May 13, 6:32*pm, aemeijers wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

....

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. *I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move *on to the next one.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't checked to see if there is a ground or not. Part of the
house is very old BX, some modifications are 14/2 with ground.
I'll check with my VOM and see how things look. The bathroom outlet
on the side of the vanity is 14/2 G so changing that out should be
easy. Some of the older BX wires are so stiff with age that they will
be a challange to change.

In the kitchen, I am only going to replace the two duplex units that
are closest to the sink, all other outlets are at least 6 feet from
the nearest point of the sink. The hardest part is going to be
working in close quarters as the sink box seems to be very shallow, I
will have to check to make sure they are deep enough to handle the
GFCI depth.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 May 2010 18:57:59 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2010-05-13, hr(bob) wrote:

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but
the house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want
GFCI's near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe
distance is.

If we are talking about a kitchen sink, then all receptacles serving
kitchen countertops must be GFCI protected. On the other hand, a
receptacle can be under a kitchen sink, to serve a garbage disposal or
the dishwasher, and then it does not require GFCI protection. So for
kitchens, it's not just a simple minimum distance.

Cheers, Wayne

I think you need to find out what a "house inspector's" legal jurisdiction
is. Typically there are grandfather laws. If the receptacle was installed
before GFCI protection was required, then non should be required now. As I
said earlier, current code would require more receptacles as well. Where
do
you draw the line?


Current code (and the code for over a decade) does not talk about the
sink at all. It says all receptacles serving counter tops in the
kitchen shall be GFCI protected. Any counter top.
In laundries, utility rooms and wet bars the rule is 6 feet.

Home inspectors are not really bound by code, they brag about not
being code inspectors. They flag anything that doesn't look right to
them. (right or wrong) so don't be shocked if this shows up on their
report, even if George Washington slept there.

This house according to the OP is 80 years old, so it's wiring and outlets
including the kitchen predate any GFCI requirements.

The current code does mention a sink. 210.52 C1 exception, which says that
receptacle outlets aren't required behind one

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.


F! the code and whether the current recepticle should be
grandfathered or not. Replace it with a GFCI because it's close to
the sink. (any kitchen countertop outlets far away from the sink
should be grandfathered; you may or may not want to replace them
anyway.)

Bob

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

I don't exactly know what type of answer you're looking for. You didn't ask
what would be required by current code. You certainly don't intend to bring
the wiring in this house up to current code, or you'll pretty much have to
gut the place and start over. Regarding kitchen counters, all receptacles
are required to be GFCI protected, not just those within 6' of a water
source.

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 6:32 pm, aemeijers wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.
The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.
Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't checked to see if there is a ground or not. Part of the
house is very old BX, some modifications are 14/2 with ground.
I'll check with my VOM and see how things look. The bathroom outlet
on the side of the vanity is 14/2 G so changing that out should be
easy. Some of the older BX wires are so stiff with age that they will
be a challange to change.

In the kitchen, I am only going to replace the two duplex units that
are closest to the sink, all other outlets are at least 6 feet from
the nearest point of the sink. The hardest part is going to be
working in close quarters as the sink box seems to be very shallow, I
will have to check to make sure they are deep enough to handle the
GFCI depth.


You don't need a ground with a GFCI outlet. They have little
stickers in the box that say "No Equipment Ground" that you put on
them when no ground is available.

The shallow box might be a problem.

Bob

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 6:32 pm, aemeijers wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.
The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.
Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't checked to see if there is a ground or not. Part of the
house is very old BX, some modifications are 14/2 with ground.
I'll check with my VOM and see how things look. The bathroom outlet
on the side of the vanity is 14/2 G so changing that out should be
easy. Some of the older BX wires are so stiff with age that they will
be a challange to change.

In the kitchen, I am only going to replace the two duplex units that
are closest to the sink, all other outlets are at least 6 feet from
the nearest point of the sink. The hardest part is going to be
working in close quarters as the sink box seems to be very shallow, I
will have to check to make sure they are deep enough to handle the
GFCI depth.

There is always wiremold extender boxes, like where you pull a surface
feed off a wall outlet. You can use the box by itself.
I haven't looked lately, but I think there are some
non-industrial-looking ones out there. Paint to match the wall or the
box cover, and I don't think anyone will freak out, especially in an old
house. Stroll down the box aisle at big-box, or drop by a real
electrical supply house not during rush hour. Lots of strange boxes out
there.

--
aem sends...

On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:32:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

I am not so quick to give the same advice. If the wiring in the house
is 80 years old, then the insulation on the wiring could be brittle.
It is better not to disturb wiring that old unless you plan on
changing it.

On Thu, 13 May 2010 20:22:56 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:45:24 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On May 13, 6:32*pm, aemeijers wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. *I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move *on to the next one.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't checked to see if there is a ground or not. Part of the
house is very old BX, some modifications are 14/2 with ground.
I'll check with my VOM and see how things look. The bathroom outlet
on the side of the vanity is 14/2 G so changing that out should be
easy. Some of the older BX wires are so stiff with age that they will
be a challange to change.

In the kitchen, I am only going to replace the two duplex units that
are closest to the sink, all other outlets are at least 6 feet from
the nearest point of the sink. The hardest part is going to be
working in close quarters as the sink box seems to be very shallow, I
will have to check to make sure they are deep enough to handle the
GFCI depth.

If this is a breaker panel it is probably easier just putting the
whole circuit on a GFCI breaker

This sounds like the safest way to go.
Breakers are more expensive though.
You stand a chance in getting the fridge on a GFI which I think is a
bad idea.

On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:38:27 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On May 13, 6:18*pm, "Colbyt" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water source
must be GFIC protected. *A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

Everyone here has said that if it is above the counter, it is required
by current codes to be GFCI protected.

Does that mean you have to change it?

No

On May 13, 8:12*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:32:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:





hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

....

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.

The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. *I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.

Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move *on to the next one.

I am not so quick to give the same advice. *If the wiring in the house
is 80 years old, then the insulation on the wiring could be brittle.
It is better not to disturb wiring that old unless you plan on
changing it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Exactly! I opened the cover of a junction box in the basement
ceiling, the joints were wrapped with tape rather than wire nuts, and
the wireinsulation was so stiff I feared moving it for fear the
insulation would crack off the wires. As long as they were not
disturbed, everything should be fine. I put the cover back on and
tightened down the screws and went upstairs.

On May 13, 8:20*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:38:27 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "





wrote:
On May 13, 6:18*pm, "Colbyt" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

....

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water source
must be GFIC protected. *A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

Everyone here has said that if it is above the counter, it is required
by current codes to be GFCI protected.

Does that mean you have to change it?

No- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But the outlets closest to the sink are about 28" from the edge of the
sink and I will be replacing one duplex outlet with a GFCI and slaving
the second pair of outlets in the same box from the GFCI just for
safety and to help sell the house so prospective buyers will have one
less thing to haggle about.

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On May 13, 8:20 pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:38:27 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "





wrote:
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so
difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the
house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

Everyone here has said that if it is above the counter, it is required
by current codes to be GFCI protected.

Does that mean you have to change it?

No- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But the outlets closest to the sink are about 28" from the edge of the
sink and I will be replacing one duplex outlet with a GFCI and slaving
the second pair of outlets in the same box from the GFCI just for
safety and to help sell the house so prospective buyers will have one
less thing to haggle about.

That's fine, just preface your inquiry by saying that you want to doll up
your friends house to make it more appealing, then ask what you should do
regarding older outlets and wiring. As gfretwell said, house inspectors will
write up anything and everything they like. This doesn't mean that the
homeowner is required to do anything, unless they choose to. If you want to
upgrade outlets, make all of them grounded, if a grounding means exists,
and use gfci outlets in garage, basement and outside, as well as the kitchen
counters. You might want to think about smoke and or CO2 detectors as well.

Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:32:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.
The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.
Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

I am not so quick to give the same advice. If the wiring in the house
is 80 years old, then the insulation on the wiring could be brittle.
It is better not to disturb wiring that old unless you plan on
changing it.

If there is a ground in the box, the wiring is not 80YO. Probably the
same age as the most recent kitchen remodel. 80YO house is likely on 2nd
or 3rd kitchen. A 1930 original kitchen is unlikely to have any counter
outlets- back then you were lucky if you got an outlet on the stove, and
maybe a clock/fan outlet high on one wall. Pull-chain ceiling fixtures
were still quite common back then. I'd be surprised if kitchen string
hasn't been redone. Unless this is a fancy house, you were lucky to get
one wall outlet per room, back then.

Of course, before you muck around, you do want to pull some cover
plates, and look in basement and/or attic to see what the feed lines
look like. Anything wiring older than late-50s is unlikely to be
grounded, unless it is in greenfield cable or something.

--
aem sends...

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 8:12 pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:32:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:





hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is 26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.
The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.
Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.
I am not so quick to give the same advice. If the wiring in the house
is 80 years old, then the insulation on the wiring could be brittle.
It is better not to disturb wiring that old unless you plan on
changing it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Exactly! I opened the cover of a junction box in the basement
ceiling, the joints were wrapped with tape rather than wire nuts, and
the wireinsulation was so stiff I feared moving it for fear the
insulation would crack off the wires. As long as they were not
disturbed, everything should be fine. I put the cover back on and
tightened down the screws and went upstairs.

There are probably soldered connections under that tape. Wire nuts did
not become common practice until late 50s - early 60s, at least in my
part of the country. My grandmother's 1961 house in Indiana still had
some soldered connections, while this 1960 house in Michigan I am
sitting in is wire nuts or screw terminals throughout.

--
aem sends...

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 19:32:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

hr(bob) wrote:
On May 13, 5:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is
an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?
Thanks,
The more interesting thing is that by current code, if that outlet is
26"
from the sink, you'd need another one 2" from the sink.
The current outlets are nowhere near as dense as current code, but the
house is80+ years old. I know any home inspector will want GFCI's
near the sink, but you did not say what that minimum safe distance is.
Is there a ground available in the box? If so, stick a GFCI in there,
and I don't think the inspector will even check the distance to the
sink. He'll just stick his little checker in there, and when it glows
green, move on to the next one.

I am not so quick to give the same advice. If the wiring in the house
is 80 years old, then the insulation on the wiring could be brittle.
It is better not to disturb wiring that old unless you plan on
changing it.

If there is a ground in the box, the wiring is not 80YO. Probably the same
age as the most recent kitchen remodel. 80YO house is likely on 2nd or 3rd
kitchen. A 1930 original kitchen is unlikely to have any counter outlets-
back then you were lucky if you got an outlet on the stove, and maybe a
clock/fan outlet high on one wall. Pull-chain ceiling fixtures were still
quite common back then. I'd be surprised if kitchen string hasn't been
redone. Unless this is a fancy house, you were lucky to get one wall
outlet per room, back then.

Of course, before you muck around, you do want to pull some cover plates,
and look in basement and/or attic to see what the feed lines look like.
Anything wiring older than late-50s is unlikely to be grounded, unless it
is in greenfield cable or something.

--
aem sends...

FYI, the steel jacket of an AC cable constitutes and equipment ground.
Greenfield, is not cable, it's conduit, and at best it's only good for an
equipment ground when shorter then six foot lengths

On May 13, 5:03*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. *There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. *I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. *What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Some codes develop from OSHA standards. They state 6 feet from a
water source. If you had a 3 ft sprayer on the sink...it would within
9 feet from the sink for a GFI.
I'm not saying this is the case...just FYI.

On May 13, 7:59*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:





"hr(bob) " wrote in message

....

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so difficult.

wrote in message
...
On May 13, 7:59 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:





"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so
difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the
house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

I don't exactly know what type of answer you're looking for. You didn't
ask
what would be required by current code. You certainly don't intend to
bring
the wiring in this house up to current code, or you'll pretty much have to
gut the place and start over. Regarding kitchen counters, all receptacles
are required to be GFCI protected, not just those within 6' of a water
source.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. It's odd that the answer he likes is wrong. The question
asked was how close an existing outlet in an old house can be to the
kitchen sink without being GFCI. It was answered many times. There
is no requirement that the outlet in question be brought up to current
code. At least not in the vast majority of places. There may be some
localities where it is required, but they are the exception. There
are likely dozens of similar things you could find in the house that
do not meet current code.

Regarding the home inspector, good chance they will point it out and
suggest that for safety it be made GFCI. Does that mean the seller
must do it? No. The seller can simply respond that it's
grandfathered and it's not a requirement. How about if the home
inspector says the 20 year old furnace is nearing the end of it's
life? Must the seller replace that too? Of course, in the case of
the outlet, if it does get flagged, it might be better to just make it
GFCI, especially in this real estate market.

That's exactly my point. I do this for a living and deal with it constantly.
It's essentially like gfretwell said, the buyer send over a "house
inspector" who's job it is to write up everything he can think of that isn't
perfect with the house, then the buyer uses the list to lower the price of
the house. If the seller wants to upgrade certain things to make the house
more saleable, that's fine, and a good idea, I just question it, when a
house inspector infers things like installing a gfci in a bathroom, makes it
code compliant

In article ,
wrote:

The other wild card in the mix is the insurance company. A lot of
these guys are requiring a "4 point" inspection before they will pick
up a house and that may be troubling for a lot of things that are
otherwise grand fathered in. From what I am hearing any fuse panel is
not allowed, even if it is a totally code conforming type S panel.
Personally I would want to fight that but insurance companies will
usually win that fight.

I bought an older investment house a couple of years ago, in "poor"
condition. Mortgage company wanted a "drive-by" inspection, which
basically means if the house exists and takes the recognizable form of a
house, they'll finance it. The only question asked was whether the
electric had been upgraded to circuit breakers. I'm sure I was tapped
into a "good old boy" network, using the insurance company that the
finance company "recommended."

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 May 2010 08:03:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On May 13, 7:59 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:





"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so
difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the
house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

I don't exactly know what type of answer you're looking for. You didn't
ask
what would be required by current code. You certainly don't intend to
bring
the wiring in this house up to current code, or you'll pretty much have
to
gut the place and start over. Regarding kitchen counters, all
receptacles
are required to be GFCI protected, not just those within 6' of a water
source.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. It's odd that the answer he likes is wrong. The question
asked was how close an existing outlet in an old house can be to the
kitchen sink without being GFCI. It was answered many times. There
is no requirement that the outlet in question be brought up to current
code. At least not in the vast majority of places. There may be some
localities where it is required, but they are the exception. There
are likely dozens of similar things you could find in the house that
do not meet current code.

Regarding the home inspector, good chance they will point it out and
suggest that for safety it be made GFCI. Does that mean the seller
must do it? No. The seller can simply respond that it's
grandfathered and it's not a requirement. How about if the home
inspector says the 20 year old furnace is nearing the end of it's
life? Must the seller replace that too? Of course, in the case of
the outlet, if it does get flagged, it might be better to just make it
GFCI, especially in this real estate market.

That's exactly my point. I do this for a living and deal with it
constantly.
It's essentially like gfretwell said, the buyer send over a "house
inspector" who's job it is to write up everything he can think of that
isn't
perfect with the house, then the buyer uses the list to lower the price of
the house. If the seller wants to upgrade certain things to make the house
more saleable, that's fine, and a good idea, I just question it, when a
house inspector infers things like installing a gfci in a bathroom, makes
it
code compliant



The other wild card in the mix is the insurance company. A lot of
these guys are requiring a "4 point" inspection before they will pick
up a house and that may be troubling for a lot of things that are
otherwise grand fathered in. From what I am hearing any fuse panel is
not allowed, even if it is a totally code conforming type S panel.
Personally I would want to fight that but insurance companies will
usually win that fight.

Years ago I would get that a lot from insurance companies, mostly in light
commercial sales, and pretty much converting to S fuses solved the problem.
Today, all parties concerned hemorrhage if there's a fuse panel involved.
It's not even worth debating, you just upgrade the service

On May 14, 1:24*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Fri, 14 May 2010 08:03:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

wrote in message
....
On May 13, 7:59 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

....
On May 13, 6:18 pm, "Colbyt" wrote:

"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...

I am helping an elderly lady get her house ready to sell. There is an
electrical outlet in the wall about 26 inches from the nearest point
of the sink. I know it has been mentioned here many many times, but
I'm too tired to go scratching around. What is the minimum distance
from the sink to an outlet that is not Ground Fault protected?

Thanks,

Any non dedicated above counter outlet within 6 feet of an open water
source
must be GFIC protected. A sink counts.

I am not sure why all the other posters felt the need to be so
difficult.

And yes a home inspector is going to cite it as problem even if the
house
150 years old.

--
Colbyt
Please come visithttp://www.househomerepair.com

Colbyt - Thanks for the first straight answer to what I thought was a
straightforward question.

I don't exactly know what type of answer you're looking for. You didn't
ask
what would be required by current code. You certainly don't intend to
bring
the wiring in this house up to current code, or you'll pretty much have
to
gut the place and start over. Regarding kitchen counters, all
receptacles
are required to be GFCI protected, not just those within 6' of a water
source.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said. It's odd that the answer he likes is wrong. * The question
asked was how close an existing outlet in an old house can be to the
kitchen sink without being GFCI. * It was answered many times. * There
is no requirement that the outlet in question be brought up to current
code. *At least not in the vast majority of places. *There may be some
localities where it is required, but they are the exception. *There
are likely dozens of similar things you could find in the house that
do not meet current code.

Regarding the home inspector, good chance they will point it out and
suggest that for safety it be made GFCI. * Does that mean the seller
must do it? * No. *The seller can simply respond that it's
grandfathered and it's not a requirement. * How about if the home
inspector says the 20 year old furnace is nearing the end of it's
life? * Must the seller replace that too? * Of course, in the case of
the outlet, if it does get flagged, it might be better to just make it
GFCI, especially in this real estate market.

That's exactly my point. I do this for a living and deal with it
constantly.
It's essentially like gfretwell said, the buyer send over a "house
inspector" who's job it is to write up everything he can think of that
isn't
perfect with the house, then the buyer uses the list to lower the price of
the house. If the seller wants to upgrade certain things to make the house
more saleable, that's fine, and a good idea, I just question it, when a
house inspector infers things like installing a gfci in a bathroom, makes
it
code compliant

The other wild card in the mix is the insurance company. A lot of
these guys are requiring a "4 point" inspection before they will pick
up a house and that may be troubling for a lot of things that are
otherwise grand fathered in. From what I am hearing any fuse panel is
not allowed, even if it is a totally code conforming type S panel.
Personally I would want to fight that but insurance companies will
usually win that fight.

Years ago I would get that a lot from insurance companies, mostly in light
commercial sales, and pretty much converting to S fuses solved the problem.
Today, all parties concerned hemorrhage if there's a fuse panel involved.
It's not even worth debating, you just upgrade the service- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, the house does have fuses, about 15 separate circuits. The
kitchen outlets in question are on a circuit that is separate from the
other two sets of kitchen outlets. Much of the wire is BX, with some
14/2 G romex, that is easy to spot in the basement. There is a
dishwasher, I don't know if it is on a separate circuit or not.

I will offer to replace the close-in outlets in the litchen and
bathroom with GFCI ones to address any safety issues. Anything more
than that will be up to the seller and buyer to agree upon, assuming
the house does sell.

replying to RBM, Ray J wrote:
could you please cite the 24 inch rule... I need to show it to somebody...

I need to find where it is written down.

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...et-441720-.htm

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 19:44:02 +0000, Ray J
m wrote:

replying to RBM, Ray J wrote:
could you please cite the 24 inch rule... I need to show it to somebody...

I need to find where it is written down.

You are not going to find it. The 24" rule applies to the distance
between receptacles serving a kitchen counter, You can have one on the
wall directly behind the sink if you want although it is a horrible
design.
The rule about sinks is any receptacle within 6' of a sink must be
GFCI and all counter top receptacles in a kitchen have to be GFCI

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 19:44:02 +0000, Ray J
m wrote:

replying to RBM, Ray J wrote:
could you please cite the 24 inch rule... I need to show it to somebody...

I need to find where it is written down.
According to code any outlet within 6 feet requirea a GFCI