On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:14:53 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 15, 9:42?pm, aemeijers wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 13, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 12, 8:01 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
Beyond a point, they have nothing to gain by making a fuss. ? They can't
claim "theft of services" because you are paying. ? It's at most a technical
violation of their service teriffs. ?Since they are in the business of
selling electricity, it's silly to disconnect a paying customer just for
spite.
They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing
any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state...
However, they can and will go after the professional with the
electrical license with the public utility people or the state
electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... ?That is not
out of spite... ?It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of
their metering equipment and distribution of services...
Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees
come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of
"it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...
~~ Evan
You are generalizing from what may (or may not) be the practice where
you are.

I cut seals when needed and called the utility metering department
within a day or two. The utility had no problem with that.

I doubt utilities would have problems with licensed electricians cutting
seals and then telling them. A licensed electrician is going to be
involved in a fraud?

--
bud--

It is trespassing, not fraud, the customer whose house the electric
meter is installed in does not own or control the meter cabinet once
the meter is installed... ?It is sealed with a tamper evident seal and
once closed you need to call and obtain permission from the power
company to access what is inside of the meter cabinet...

Just because your local utility company has made a practice of
not making a major case out of it in the past has no bearing on
whether they can if they wanted to...

Why do you think some of the utility companies out there use
those high security metal bands and medeco locks on their
meter enclosures ? ?It is to keep everybody but the power
company out... ?Electricians have the ability to cut into the
service drop lines if they need to kill the power where they
can reconnect them without trespassing in power company
enclosures...

Just because the power company has not resorted to using
the metal bands around the meter and the medeco high security
pin locks on the cabinet box doesn't mean you should cut the
meter seal off and do whatever you want -- your customer does
not have the right to give you permission to open that locked
enclosure while the power company seal is in place and intact...

~~ Evan

This 'does too- does not' argument is pointless. It obviously varies by
area. IANAL, but I do not think the term 'trespass' applies- more like
'violating terms of service'. My recommendation to anyone, home owner or
licensed electrician, would be to pick up the phone and CALL the power
company. A local tradesman is likely known to them from previous jobs,
so they will say 'okay, got it', and move on. A homeowner, on the other
hand, they may want to send a truck out to pull the meter, since they
have no way of knowing if the homeowner knows what he is doing, even if
he uses all the right words on the phone. And in my limited experience,
some of those meters are surprisingly heavy, and the prongs can grab
awful hard sometimes. If you don't pull it out or put it back squarely
and firmly, some scary noises are possible. (I used to set up and take
down temporary poles on the job sites as a kid. They didn't always have
a working or unlocked kill switch on the pole. Somebody breaks the feed
from temporary pole to house, sometimes pulling the meter was the only
way to kill power before stepping into the mud puddle to recover the
loose wire.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if replacing the main panel most likely you will need to upgrade the
amp capacity and or replace the service drop and meter can.

Again, I ask - WHY would I need to upgrade the capacity when changing
my 100 amp fused panel to breakers???? My load hasn't changed - I'll
hve roughly the same number of circuits.
my (underground) power feed is AT LEAST 1 100 amp feed. (the vast
majority in my area were provisioned with 200 amp feeds, because the
"all electric" home was very much in vogue when this house was built
in the seventies)

these all require disconnecting at the service head something only
electricians or power company workers should do!!


And in my case would require extensive trenching etc IF an upgrade was
required (which it isn't)

One day I'll likely end up replacing my panel with a breaker panel,
even though fuse panels are more "reliable"

On May 16, 1:10*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:14:53 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:
On May 15, 9:42?pm, aemeijers wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 13, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 12, 8:01 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
Beyond a point, they have nothing to gain by making a fuss. ? They can't
claim "theft of services" because you are paying. ? It's at most a technical
violation of their service teriffs. ?Since they are in the business of
selling electricity, it's silly to disconnect a paying customer just for
spite.
They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing
any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state....
However, they can and will go after the professional with the
electrical license with the public utility people or the state
electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... ?That is not
out of spite... ?It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of
their metering equipment and distribution of services...
Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees
come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of
"it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...
~~ Evan
You are generalizing from what may (or may not) be the practice where
you are.

I cut seals when needed and called the utility metering department
within a day or two. The utility had no problem with that.

I doubt utilities would have problems with licensed electricians cutting
seals and then telling them. A licensed electrician is going to be
involved in a fraud?

--
bud--

It is trespassing, not fraud, the customer whose house the electric
meter is installed in does not own or control the meter cabinet once
the meter is installed... ?It is sealed with a tamper evident seal and
once closed you need to call and obtain permission from the power
company to access what is inside of the meter cabinet...

Just because your local utility company has made a practice of
not making a major case out of it in the past has no bearing on
whether they can if they wanted to...

Why do you think some of the utility companies out there use
those high security metal bands and medeco locks on their
meter enclosures ? ?It is to keep everybody but the power
company out... ?Electricians have the ability to cut into the
service drop lines if they need to kill the power where they
can reconnect them without trespassing in power company
enclosures...

Just because the power company has not resorted to using
the metal bands around the meter and the medeco high security
pin locks on the cabinet box doesn't mean you should cut the
meter seal off and do whatever you want -- your customer does
not have the right to give you permission to open that locked
enclosure while the power company seal is in place and intact...

~~ Evan

This 'does too- does not' argument is pointless. It obviously varies by
area. IANAL, but I do not think the term 'trespass' applies- more like
'violating terms of service'. My recommendation to anyone, home owner or
licensed electrician, would be to pick up the phone and CALL the power
company. A local tradesman is likely known to them from previous jobs,
so they will say 'okay, got it', and move on. A homeowner, on the other
hand, they may want to send a truck out to pull the meter, since they
have no way of knowing if the homeowner knows what he is doing, even if
he uses all the right words on the phone. And in my limited experience,
some of those meters are surprisingly heavy, and the prongs can grab
awful hard sometimes. If you don't pull it out or put it back squarely
and firmly, some scary noises are possible. (I used to set up and take
down temporary poles on the job sites as a kid. They didn't always have
a working or unlocked kill switch on the pole. Somebody breaks the feed
from temporary pole to house, sometimes pulling the meter was the only
way to kill power before stepping into the mud puddle to recover the
loose wire.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if replacing the main panel most likely you will need to upgrade the
amp capacity and or replace the service drop and meter can.

Again, I ask - WHY would I need to upgrade the capacity when changing
my 100 amp fused panel to breakers???? My load hasn't changed - I'll
hve roughly the same number of circuits.
*my (underground) power feed is AT LEAST 1 100 amp feed. (the vast
majority in my area were provisioned with 200 amp feeds, because the
"all electric" home was very much in vogue when this house was built
in the seventies)



these all require disconnecting at the service head something only
electricians or power company workers should do!!

And in my case would require extensive trenching etc IF an upgrade was
required (which it isn't)

One day I'll likely end up replacing my panel with a breaker panel,
even though fuse panels are more "reliable"


You do eventually want to sell your house someday, yes ?

Mortgage companies often want to see at least a 200 Amp
electric service to the house to underwrite a new mortgage on
the property at the change of ownership... Same deal applies
on houses with septic systems, they have to be up to snuff on
size and ability to perc properly or no dice on a new mortgage...

Try getting a new mortgage or selling a property using fuse
panels which are "more reliable" you will not be able to get
financing for a new mortgage until the old electric service
equipment is upgraded to a circuit breaker panel with a
minimum of a 200 Amp capacity... Unless you are going to
be selling the property in a private cash sale which is a VERY
rare thing, the mortgage company rules and FHA lending
guidelines apply...

I have seen several house sales in my area fall through based
on older septic systems which would have required replacement
for the person attempting to buy the property to get financing
to go through with the sale... Septic is like a $25k deal to get
the whole thing done from start to finish with all the song and
dance you have to go through with the environmental people
and all the testing you have to do before you even break ground...

If you are going to be spending money to upgrade and modernize
your house you may as well do it right the first time rather than
be faced with ripping out your work in the future under some sort
of deadline to try and get a sale of the property approved by the
mortgage company...

~~ Evan

On Sun, 16 May 2010 11:15:55 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On May 16, 1:10Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:14:53 -0700 (PDT), "



wrote:
On May 15, 9:42?pm, aemeijers wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 13, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 12, 8:01 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
Beyond a point, they have nothing to gain by making a fuss. ? They can't
claim "theft of services" because you are paying. ? It's at most a technical
violation of their service teriffs. ?Since they are in the business of
selling electricity, it's silly to disconnect a paying customer just for
spite.
They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing
any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state...
However, they can and will go after the professional with the
electrical license with the public utility people or the state
electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... ?That is not
out of spite... ?It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of
their metering equipment and distribution of services...
Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees
come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of
"it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...
~~ Evan
You are generalizing from what may (or may not) be the practice where
you are.

I cut seals when needed and called the utility metering department
within a day or two. The utility had no problem with that.

I doubt utilities would have problems with licensed electricians cutting
seals and then telling them. A licensed electrician is going to be
involved in a fraud?

--
bud--

It is trespassing, not fraud, the customer whose house the electric
meter is installed in does not own or control the meter cabinet once
the meter is installed... ?It is sealed with a tamper evident seal and
once closed you need to call and obtain permission from the power
company to access what is inside of the meter cabinet...

Just because your local utility company has made a practice of
not making a major case out of it in the past has no bearing on
whether they can if they wanted to...

Why do you think some of the utility companies out there use
those high security metal bands and medeco locks on their
meter enclosures ? ?It is to keep everybody but the power
company out... ?Electricians have the ability to cut into the
service drop lines if they need to kill the power where they
can reconnect them without trespassing in power company
enclosures...

Just because the power company has not resorted to using
the metal bands around the meter and the medeco high security
pin locks on the cabinet box doesn't mean you should cut the
meter seal off and do whatever you want -- your customer does
not have the right to give you permission to open that locked
enclosure while the power company seal is in place and intact...

~~ Evan

This 'does too- does not' argument is pointless. It obviously varies by
area. IANAL, but I do not think the term 'trespass' applies- more like
'violating terms of service'. My recommendation to anyone, home owner or
licensed electrician, would be to pick up the phone and CALL the power
company. A local tradesman is likely known to them from previous jobs,
so they will say 'okay, got it', and move on. A homeowner, on the other
hand, they may want to send a truck out to pull the meter, since they
have no way of knowing if the homeowner knows what he is doing, even if
he uses all the right words on the phone. And in my limited experience,
some of those meters are surprisingly heavy, and the prongs can grab
awful hard sometimes. If you don't pull it out or put it back squarely
and firmly, some scary noises are possible. (I used to set up and take
down temporary poles on the job sites as a kid. They didn't always have
a working or unlocked kill switch on the pole. Somebody breaks the feed
from temporary pole to house, sometimes pulling the meter was the only
way to kill power before stepping into the mud puddle to recover the
loose wire.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if replacing the main panel most likely you will need to upgrade the
amp capacity and or replace the service drop and meter can.

Again, I ask - WHY would I need to upgrade the capacity when changing
my 100 amp fused panel to breakers???? My load hasn't changed - I'll
hve roughly the same number of circuits.
Â*my (underground) power feed is AT LEAST 1 100 amp feed. (the vast
majority in my area were provisioned with 200 amp feeds, because the
"all electric" home was very much in vogue when this house was built
in the seventies)



these all require disconnecting at the service head something only
electricians or power company workers should do!!

And in my case would require extensive trenching etc IF an upgrade was
required (which it isn't)

One day I'll likely end up replacing my panel with a breaker panel,
even though fuse panels are more "reliable"


You do eventually want to sell your house someday, yes ?

Mortgage companies often want to see at least a 200 Amp
electric service to the house to underwrite a new mortgage on
the property at the change of ownership... Same deal applies
on houses with septic systems, they have to be up to snuff on
size and ability to perc properly or no dice on a new mortgage...

100 amp is more than adequate unless you have electric heat - no
problem selling or financing 100 amp service in a typical home here in
central Ontario. They don't like aluminum wiring. Or iron pipes.

Try getting a new mortgage or selling a property using fuse
panels which are "more reliable" you will not be able to get
financing for a new mortgage until the old electric service
equipment is upgraded to a circuit breaker panel with a
minimum of a 200 Amp capacity...


Nope - no problem with 100 amp fuse panel- can't sell a 40 or a 60
though - fused or not. ANd generally not a financing problem - it's an
insurance problem - and without insurance you don't get financing.

Unless you are going to
be selling the property in a private cash sale which is a VERY
rare thing, the mortgage company rules and FHA lending
guidelines apply...

I have seen several house sales in my area fall through based
on older septic systems which would have required replacement
for the person attempting to buy the property to get financing
to go through with the sale... Septic is like a $25k deal to get
the whole thing done from start to finish with all the song and
dance you have to go through with the environmental people
and all the testing you have to do before you even break ground...

If you are going to be spending money to upgrade and modernize
your house you may as well do it right the first time rather than
be faced with ripping out your work in the future under some sort
of deadline to try and get a sale of the property approved by the
mortgage company...

~~ Evan

On May 16, 2:15*pm, Evan wrote:
On May 16, 1:10*pm, wrote:





On Sat, 15 May 2010 21:14:53 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On May 15, 9:42?pm, aemeijers wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 13, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
Evan wrote:
On May 12, 8:01 pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
Beyond a point, they have nothing to gain by making a fuss. ? They can't
claim "theft of services" because you are paying. ? It's at most a technical
violation of their service teriffs. ?Since they are in the business of
selling electricity, it's silly to disconnect a paying customer just for
spite.
They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing
any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state...
However, they can and will go after the professional with the
electrical license with the public utility people or the state
electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... ?That is not
out of spite... ?It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of
their metering equipment and distribution of services...
Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees
come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of
"it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...
~~ Evan
You are generalizing from what may (or may not) be the practice where
you are.

I cut seals when needed and called the utility metering department
within a day or two. The utility had no problem with that.

I doubt utilities would have problems with licensed electricians cutting
seals and then telling them. A licensed electrician is going to be
involved in a fraud?

--
bud--

It is trespassing, not fraud, the customer whose house the electric
meter is installed in does not own or control the meter cabinet once
the meter is installed... ?It is sealed with a tamper evident seal and
once closed you need to call and obtain permission from the power
company to access what is inside of the meter cabinet...

Just because your local utility company has made a practice of
not making a major case out of it in the past has no bearing on
whether they can if they wanted to...

Why do you think some of the utility companies out there use
those high security metal bands and medeco locks on their
meter enclosures ? ?It is to keep everybody but the power
company out... ?Electricians have the ability to cut into the
service drop lines if they need to kill the power where they
can reconnect them without trespassing in power company
enclosures...

Just because the power company has not resorted to using
the metal bands around the meter and the medeco high security
pin locks on the cabinet box doesn't mean you should cut the
meter seal off and do whatever you want -- your customer does
not have the right to give you permission to open that locked
enclosure while the power company seal is in place and intact...

~~ Evan

This 'does too- does not' argument is pointless. It obviously varies by
area. IANAL, but I do not think the term 'trespass' applies- more like
'violating terms of service'. My recommendation to anyone, home owner or
licensed electrician, would be to pick up the phone and CALL the power
company. A local tradesman is likely known to them from previous jobs,
so they will say 'okay, got it', and move on. A homeowner, on the other
hand, they may want to send a truck out to pull the meter, since they
have no way of knowing if the homeowner knows what he is doing, even if
he uses all the right words on the phone. And in my limited experience,
some of those meters are surprisingly heavy, and the prongs can grab
awful hard sometimes. If you don't pull it out or put it back squarely
and firmly, some scary noises are possible. (I used to set up and take
down temporary poles on the job sites as a kid. They didn't always have
a working or unlocked kill switch on the pole. Somebody breaks the feed
from temporary pole to house, sometimes pulling the meter was the only
way to kill power before stepping into the mud puddle to recover the
loose wire.)

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if replacing the main panel most likely you will need to upgrade the
amp capacity and or replace the service drop and meter can.

Again, I ask - WHY would I need to upgrade the capacity when changing
my 100 amp fused panel to breakers???? My load hasn't changed - I'll
hve roughly the same number of circuits.
*my (underground) power feed is AT LEAST 1 100 amp feed. (the vast
majority in my area were provisioned with 200 amp feeds, because the
"all electric" home was very much in vogue when this house was built
in the seventies)

these all require disconnecting at the service head something only
electricians or power company workers should do!!

And in my case would require extensive trenching etc IF an upgrade was
required (which it isn't)

One day I'll likely end up replacing my panel with a breaker panel,
even though fuse panels are more "reliable"

You do eventually want to sell your house someday, yes ?

Mortgage companies often want to see at least a 200 Amp
electric service to the house to underwrite a new mortgage on
the property at the change of ownership... *Same deal applies
on houses with septic systems, they have to be up to snuff on
size and ability to perc properly or no dice on a new mortgage...

Try getting a new mortgage or selling a property using fuse
panels which are "more reliable" you will not be able to get
financing for a new mortgage until the old electric service
equipment is upgraded to a circuit breaker panel with a
minimum of a 200 Amp capacity... *Unless you are going to
be selling the property in a private cash sale which is a VERY
rare thing, the mortgage company rules and FHA lending
guidelines apply...

I have seen several house sales in my area fall through based
on older septic systems which would have required replacement
for the person attempting to buy the property to get financing
to go through with the sale... *Septic is like a $25k deal to get
the whole thing done from start to finish with all the song and
dance you have to go through with the environmental people
and all the testing you have to do before you even break ground...

If you are going to be spending money to upgrade and modernize
your house you may as well do it right the first time rather than
be faced with ripping out your work in the future under some sort
of deadline to try and get a sale of the property approved by the
mortgage company...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're just a frickin twit.

First the bs about pulling a meter. Now he's got to upgrade to 200amp
or he can't sell his house.

If it's a smaller house and has other utlities for heat 100 amp
service is fine.