On Apr 10, 4:16*pm, wrote:
On Apr 10, 3:29*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Apr 10, 11:19*am, wrote: $0.80/ Kwh even
if you use it yourself.

I don't understand how you can sell the power if you use it
yourself? * Here in the US, what you use yourself is free and the
excess is sold back to the system. *

*People get the wrong idea that you can sell ALL of the excess you can
generate back to the PoCo. This isnt true. The PoCo doesnt have to and
will not pay you for more than you have used so the best you can do is
break even less the monthly connection charges and other fees they can
dream up.

That is news to me. *You have any reference that supports this? * I've
always heard that whatever you don't use goes back to the grid and you
do get paid for it. *Why would the power company pay me for the power
I have used? * It sounds ass backwards.

I would be paying for the first $40 worth whether I use it
or not.

Jimmie

The last info I got from Duke Energy.

Jimmie

On Apr 10, 8:40*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Apr 10, 4:16*pm, wrote:





On Apr 10, 3:29*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Apr 10, 11:19*am, wrote: $0.80/ Kwh even
if you use it yourself.

I don't understand how you can sell the power if you use it
yourself? * Here in the US, what you use yourself is free and the
excess is sold back to the system. *

*People get the wrong idea that you can sell ALL of the excess you can
generate back to the PoCo. This isnt true. The PoCo doesnt have to and
will not pay you for more than you have used so the best you can do is
break even less the monthly connection charges and other fees they can
dream up.

That is news to me. *You have any reference that supports this? * I've
always heard that whatever you don't use goes back to the grid and you
do get paid for it. *Why would the power company pay me for the power
I have used? * It sounds ass backwards.

I would be paying for the first $40 worth whether I use it
or not.

Jimmie

Best reference is the local poco or whomever you buy your electricity
from. It varies from state to state. Often sales back to the poco is
at a wholesale rate of 1 to 3 cents per Kwh. When you do this you can
sell them as much as you want but you have to install a 'net meter'
that computes your usage from *and return to the grid. Otherwise if
you use a plain old meter which will run backwards you can be limited
to the amount that you took out of the grid. For a residential
customer guess which way is best.

Jimmie

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I did a bit of googling and agree with most of your point. It seems
the most common form of residential solar agreement uses "net
metering", which means any excess electricity that you put back in the
grid the utility credits you for at the same rate that you would pay
if you were using their elecytric. So, if you generated $100 in
electric beyond what you could use in a month, your bill is zero and
you get a credit of $100 which is carried forward into the future.
As you said, you still would pay any normal monthly service fees not
related to usage amount. So, the credit could eventually be used,
for example during winter months when there is less sun and perhaps
more electricity usage. But you can't turn the excess into real
money, you would have to use it as electricity.

There are other forms of metering agreements that are more complicated
and I didn't get far enough into them to figure out if they could make
sense for a residential user. Basicly those will pay you for ALL the
electric you supply to the grid, but at wholesale rates that are in
many cases only 2 or 3 cents a KWH. My first take is that these would
be a loser compared to going with the net billing.

One would think that in the push to try to go to alternative energy,
they would make this more incentived across the whole US by requiring
the utilities to buy back the excess power at some more reasonable
rate, like at least half the price of power that the company supplies
to residential customers.

Thanks for the info and pointing me in the right direction. I'm
going to look into exactly how it works in NJ. I know it's a lot
more complicated here. I think the utilities just buy some kind of
solar energy credits yearly from residential customers, but don't know
how it's determined.

On Apr 9, 12:04�am, wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:15:08 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/5104016/dean-kame...s-now-entirely....

Well, yeah. His home is typical of folks who invent the Segway or the
Pop-Tart. Bill Gates probably saves bags of money on air-conditioning by
living inside a mountain.

I guess you missed a few things, like the fact that part of getting
off the grid involved figuring out ways to use LESS energy.

There is no single magic bullet. If you have that sort of tunnel
vision, you are doomed to failure and extinction.

By using less energy, and producing more of it at the point of use,
you CAN save money. You don't have to be Bill Gates to do it, either.
I'm currently looking into installing geo-thermal in my primary
residence. I will use photovoltaic solar to provide the electricity
needed to operate the controls and pumps. So, I will be heating and
cooling that house without any connection to the grid, and no fossil
fuels. I'll be able to keep my house at any temp I want without
worrying about how much energy I'm using to do it. I'll also be able
to heat my hot tub for free, saving an additional $30-$40 a month. The
initial installation will be expensive, but part of it will be offset
by the boiler I won't be replacing. �Since I won't be buying any oil,
I'll break even in about 10 years at MOST. More likely about 7 years.
After that, heat and air conditioning will be FREE other than
maintenance, which is pretty minimal on these systems. �

The problem is there will be no power when you need it the most. ie at
night and in cold cloudy weather.

On Apr 12, 7:07�pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Apr 9, 12:04?am, wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:15:08 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/5104016/dean-kame...s-now-entirely...

Well, yeah. His home is typical of folks who invent the Segway or the
Pop-Tart. Bill Gates probably saves bags of money on air-conditioning by
living inside a mountain.

I guess you missed a few things, like the fact that part of getting
off the grid involved figuring out ways to use LESS energy.

There is no single magic bullet. If you have that sort of tunnel
vision, you are doomed to failure and extinction.

By using less energy, and producing more of it at the point of use,
you CAN save money. You don't have to be Bill Gates to do it, either.
I'm currently looking into installing geo-thermal in my primary
residence. I will use photovoltaic solar to provide the electricity
needed to operate the controls and pumps. So, I will be heating and
cooling that house without any connection to the grid, and no fossil
fuels. I'll be able to keep my house at any temp I want without
worrying about how much energy I'm using to do it. I'll also be able
to heat my hot tub for free, saving an additional $30-$40 a month. The
initial installation will be expensive, but part of it will be offset
by the boiler I won't be replacing. ?Since I won't be buying any oil,
I'll break even in about 10 years at MOST. More likely about 7 years.
After that, heat and air conditioning will be FREE other than
maintenance, which is pretty minimal on these systems. ?

The problem is there will be no power when you need it the most. ie at
night and in cold cloudy weather.

There is an astounding new technology called a BATTERY. You might want
to read up on the subject. It allows you to store the power you
collect from photo-voltaic panels, and use it whenever you like.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hah. That's just gonna double the cost. And how long do you suppose
the batteries will last? Where will they be located? How about
maintaining them? Will my electric cooker run off them & for how
long? More ********.

On Apr 14, 6:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:12:11 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Apr 12, 7:07?pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 9, 12:04?am, wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:15:08 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/5104016/dean-kame...s-now-entirely...

Well, yeah. His home is typical of folks who invent the Segway or the
Pop-Tart. Bill Gates probably saves bags of money on air-conditioning by
living inside a mountain.

I guess you missed a few things, like the fact that part of getting
off the grid involved figuring out ways to use LESS energy.

There is no single magic bullet. If you have that sort of tunnel
vision, you are doomed to failure and extinction.

By using less energy, and producing more of it at the point of use,
you CAN save money. You don't have to be Bill Gates to do it, either.

On 4/14/2010 5:25 AM, wrote:

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something.

What is the cost of installing geo-thermal (system only)?

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

What is the cost of the charger/power supply/conditioner?

Batteries?

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

It is never advised to store battery banks inside the residence. Back
in my off-grid days every source I ever referenced insisted that the
batteries be stored in their own shack, separate and at a safe distance
from the residence. Just because it is a sealed, VRLA battery does not
mean that it will not off-gas, hence the inherent fire hazard and the
need to store them away from structures and *NOT* have the electronics
inside their enclosure.

At that time (mid 90's) Trojan's were the recommended battery, were not
cheap, and at 6 volts each, required twice the quantity to obtain 12
volts, and four times the quantity to get 24.

Batteries do wear out and getting more than seven years out of them is
not to be expected.

Solar is inefficient and your expected Ah output for charging should be
halved when designing a system unless you plan on using a motorized
tracking system, and your expected useful output should be ~2/3 of the
sunrise/sunset time.

Note: This does not account for cloudy days. Only plan on getting 1/4
of the output in winter (this does not account for winter
weather). This accounts for shorter days and the lower
intensity of sunlight (more atmosphere) striking the panels.

Depending on location, 10% of rated output is the norm.

Solar panels wear out, too.

Whatever you *THINK* you need, double it.

Do plan on using grid power if you do not want *ANY* down time.

Other than for light loads, solar is only supplementary unless you
want to shell out the cost of a vehicle or two, and still not have
100% independence without another form of off-grid power.

It all depends on what you plan on running with the system. Motors
are not a favored load for a small system, since you not only have
to power the motors with the solar panels, you also have to charge
the batteries on top of the load. Two or more hot/cold, cloudy days
will get you, every time.

Plan for the worse, build for twice that.

On Apr 14, 3:58�pm, "[SMF]" wrote:
On 4/14/2010 5:25 AM, wrote:

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something.

What is the cost of installing geo-thermal (system only)?

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

What is the cost of the charger/power supply/conditioner?

Batteries?

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

It is never advised to store battery banks inside the residence. �Back
in my off-grid days every source I ever referenced insisted that the
batteries be stored in their own shack, separate and at a safe distance
from the residence. �Just because it is a sealed, VRLA battery does not
mean that it will not off-gas, hence the inherent fire hazard and the
need to store them away from structures and *NOT* have the electronics
inside their enclosure.

At that time (mid 90's) Trojan's were the recommended battery, were not
cheap, and at 6 volts each, required twice the quantity to obtain 12
volts, and four times the quantity to get 24.

Batteries do wear out and getting more than seven years out of them is
not to be expected.

Solar is inefficient and your expected Ah output for charging should be
halved when designing a system unless you plan on using a motorized
tracking system, and your expected useful output should be ~2/3 of the
sunrise/sunset time.

Note: �This does not account for cloudy days. �Only plan on getting 1/4
� � � � of the output in winter (this does not account for winter
� � � � weather). �This accounts for shorter days and the lower
� � � � intensity of sunlight (more atmosphere) striking the panels.

Depending on location, 10% of rated output is the norm.

Solar panels wear out, too.

Whatever you *THINK* you need, double it.

Do plan on using grid power if you do not want *ANY* down time.

Other than for light loads, solar is only supplementary unless you
want to shell out the cost of a vehicle or two, and still not have
100% independence without another form of off-grid power.

It all depends on what you plan on running with the system. �Motors
are not a favored load for a small system, since you not only have
to power the motors with the solar panels, you also have to charge
the batteries on top of the load. �Two or more hot/cold, cloudy days
will get you, every time.

Plan for the worse, build for twice that.

Re the above. There is a number which is the Kwh you can expect to
generate annually for each Kwhp of installed PV panel.
EG in California it's 1000, ie if you had a 1Kw panel, it would
generate 1000Kwh/year.
In the Uk it's 740 in the sunnier parts.
This is for a 5% efficient panel, I think they're better now. The
assumption is fixed (non rotating) but a the optimum angle for your
area and South facing.

On Apr 14, 9:47*am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 05:58:13 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 14, 6:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:12:11 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 12, 7:07?pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 9, 12:04?am, wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:15:08 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/5104016/dean-kame...s-now-entirely...

Well, yeah. His home is typical of folks who invent the Segway or the
Pop-Tart. Bill Gates probably saves bags of money on air-conditioning by
living inside a mountain.

I guess you missed a few things, like the fact that part of getting
off the grid involved figuring out ways to use LESS energy.

There is no single magic bullet. If you have that sort of tunnel
vision, you are doomed to failure and extinction.

By using less energy, and producing more of it at the point of use,
you CAN save money. You don't have to be Bill Gates to do it, either.
I'm currently looking into installing geo-thermal in my primary
residence. I will use photovoltaic solar to provide the electricity
needed to operate the controls and pumps. So, I will be heating and
cooling that house without any connection to the grid, and no fossil
fuels. I'll be able to keep my house at any temp I want without
worrying about how much energy I'm using to do it. I'll also be able
to heat my hot tub for free, saving an additional $30-$40 a month. The
initial installation will be expensive, but part of it will be offset
by the boiler I won't be replacing. ?Since I won't be buying any oil,
I'll break even in about 10 years at MOST. More likely about 7 years.
After that, heat and air conditioning will be FREE other than
maintenance, which is pretty minimal on these systems. ?

The problem is there will be no power when you need it the most. ie at
night and in cold cloudy weather.

There is an astounding new technology called a BATTERY. You might want
to read up on the subject. It allows you to store the power you
collect from photo-voltaic panels, and use it whenever you like.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hah. That's just gonna double the cost. And how long do you suppose
the batteries will last? *Where will they be located? *How about
maintaining them? *Will my electric cooker run off them & for how
long? More ********.

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You don't need a battery. *

You are correct I need SEVERAL batteries for this application.





As we established elsewhere in this thread
or another, the most common form of metering in the USA for
residential solar is "net metering". * That means that any electricity
you generate that you use yourself is free. * Any excess above that
goes into the grid and the utility credits you for it at the same rate
as your would pay if you bought the electricity from them. * That
credit, while never directly paid to you, gets carried forward on your
bill month to month.

So, during the day, when you could be using less electricity, you are
racking up credit that is used to pay for the grid electricity during
the night. * As far as I can figure out, the trick is to right size
the solar system so that it is just about equal to your averge usage
over a year. * If you get one too large, you wind up generating free
power for the grid. * If you get one too small, you will be paying for
some electricity off the grid. * Given that size=cost, it would appear
you're better off getting one that is a little too small than too
large.

Different states and utilities may have different ways of paying that
could change that. *The only way to know for sure is to check.

Uh... very nice post, but has virtually ZERO to do with what I posted
about.

It has everything to do with it. You size a solar panel system to
support the AVERAGE load of the house. You use net metering. So,
during sunny days, you are producing more energy that the house uses
in the day. That generates credits with the electric company with
the meter spinning backwards at the same rate. At night, you use the
power from the grid, drawing down those credits.

So, who needs the battery? Even in a power outage, with solar
available during the day, you can heat the house up, run the fridges,
etc and get throught the night.

If batteries were feasible, cost effective and attractive as part of a
solar residential solution, why is it that I have yet to see one?




I posted about a geo-thermal HVAC system with the electrical parts for
it (controls and pump) powered by photo-voltaic panels and batteries.- Hide quoted text -

text -

Why do you need batteries? Just run the geothermal system during the
day, warm up the house enough to get through the night.

On Apr 14, 11:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:58:34 -0500, "[SMF]"
wrote:





On 4/14/2010 5:25 AM, wrote:

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something.

What is the cost of installing geo-thermal (system only)?

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

What is the cost of the charger/power supply/conditioner?

Batteries?

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

It is never advised to store battery banks inside the residence. *Back
in my off-grid days every source I ever referenced insisted that the
batteries be stored in their own shack, separate and at a safe distance
from the residence. *Just because it is a sealed, VRLA battery does not
mean that it will not off-gas, hence the inherent fire hazard and the
need to store them away from structures and *NOT* have the electronics
inside their enclosure.

At that time (mid 90's) Trojan's were the recommended battery, were not
cheap, and at 6 volts each, required twice the quantity to obtain 12
volts, and four times the quantity to get 24.

Batteries do wear out and getting more than seven years out of them is
not to be expected.

Solar is inefficient and your expected Ah output for charging should be
halved when designing a system unless you plan on using a motorized
tracking system, and your expected useful output should be ~2/3 of the
sunrise/sunset time.

Note: *This does not account for cloudy days. *Only plan on getting 1/4
* * * *of the output in winter (this does not account for winter
* * * *weather). *This accounts for shorter days and the lower
* * * *intensity of sunlight (more atmosphere) striking the panels.

Depending on location, 10% of rated output is the norm.

Solar panels wear out, too.

Whatever you *THINK* you need, double it.

Do plan on using grid power if you do not want *ANY* down time.

Other than for light loads, solar is only supplementary unless you
want to shell out the cost of a vehicle or two, and still not have
100% independence without another form of off-grid power.

It all depends on what you plan on running with the system. *Motors
are not a favored load for a small system, since you not only have
to power the motors with the solar panels, you also have to charge
the batteries on top of the load. *Two or more hot/cold, cloudy days
will get you, every time.

Plan for the worse, build for twice that.

A lot of what you say is based on very outmoded technology, and by
todays's standards, is simply incorrect. Just one example is that
there is no problem inherent with having AGM batteries located in the
living space. I have them on my boat in relatively tight quarters.

I'm very familiar with most aspects of the subject of solar panels and
batteries, because my second home is a sailboat that is completely off
the grid. I'm not a newbie at this.

Mixing apples and oranges. A solar/battery system makes sense on a
boat because when away from the dock, you have no grid power and the
typical power requirements on a boat are modest. For example, can
you run your AC system on that battery at night? It would have to be
one hell of a big battery. The cost/benefit equation changes
completely when you are talking about a large house that is connected
to the grid.

On 4/15/2010 3:35 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:58:34 -0500,
wrote:

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

This is my quote from Fafco Solar in Cape Coral Florida
2.3 kw system
Ten 230w panels
inverter, grid tie connection, permits and paperwork

$17,250

$9200 Florida rebate
$5175 fed tax credit
net cost $2875

EXCEPT the Florida rebate system is broke and all rebates are waiting
for more money to be allocated from Tallahassee so get in line behind
the cops, firemen and school teachers who just got their budgets cut
AKA never.

Basically call it $12,000 if Obama doesn't decide he needs the money.

Dang, must be nice to get everyone else to pay for your system.

I was figuring around $20,000 complete (I'd install a Hart inverter
with it).

On Apr 15, 8:54 am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 05:40:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:58:34 -0500, "[SMF]"
wrote:

On 4/14/2010 5:25 AM, wrote:

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something.

What is the cost of installing geo-thermal (system only)?

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

What is the cost of the charger/power supply/conditioner?

Batteries?

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

It is never advised to store battery banks inside the residence. Back
in my off-grid days every source I ever referenced insisted that the
batteries be stored in their own shack, separate and at a safe distance
from the residence. Just because it is a sealed, VRLA battery does not
mean that it will not off-gas, hence the inherent fire hazard and the
need to store them away from structures and *NOT* have the electronics
inside their enclosure.

At that time (mid 90's) Trojan's were the recommended battery, were not
cheap, and at 6 volts each, required twice the quantity to obtain 12
volts, and four times the quantity to get 24.

Batteries do wear out and getting more than seven years out of them is
not to be expected.

Solar is inefficient and your expected Ah output for charging should be
halved when designing a system unless you plan on using a motorized
tracking system, and your expected useful output should be ~2/3 of the
sunrise/sunset time.

Note: This does not account for cloudy days. Only plan on getting 1/4
of the output in winter (this does not account for winter
weather). This accounts for shorter days and the lower
intensity of sunlight (more atmosphere) striking the panels.

Depending on location, 10% of rated output is the norm.

Solar panels wear out, too.

Whatever you *THINK* you need, double it.

Do plan on using grid power if you do not want *ANY* down time.

Other than for light loads, solar is only supplementary unless you
want to shell out the cost of a vehicle or two, and still not have
100% independence without another form of off-grid power.

It all depends on what you plan on running with the system. Motors
are not a favored load for a small system, since you not only have
to power the motors with the solar panels, you also have to charge
the batteries on top of the load. Two or more hot/cold, cloudy days
will get you, every time.

Plan for the worse, build for twice that.

A lot of what you say is based on very outmoded technology, and by
todays's standards, is simply incorrect. Just one example is that
there is no problem inherent with having AGM batteries located in the
living space. I have them on my boat in relatively tight quarters.

I'm very familiar with most aspects of the subject of solar panels and
batteries, because my second home is a sailboat that is completely off
the grid. I'm not a newbie at this.

Mixing apples and oranges. A solar/battery system makes sense on a
boat because when away from the dock, you have no grid power and the
typical power requirements on a boat are modest. For example, can
you run your AC system on that battery at night? It would have to be
one hell of a big battery. The cost/benefit equation changes
completely when you are talking about a large house that is connected
to the grid.

You are about as thick as any brick, and dumber than most dirt.

Please refrain from any more inane responses until you get some wisp
of a clue.

My home geo-thermal heating and air-conditioniung system will have all
of it's modest electricity needs met quite easily by solar panels and
batteries. It will run 24/7/365 that way, without any connection
whatsoever to the power grid.

Why exactly is it inane to do solar electric power the way every home
here that I have seen does it? Which is to say it's connected to
the grid, you use the power you generate and get credit for any excess
that you put into the grid. In turn, the grid is available at night
or when it's not cloudy. And you don't use batteries.

What exactly is the point to buying an array of storage batteries and
if it's such a great idea, why is it that I have yet to see it done in
any normal residential application?

On Apr 14, 6:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:12:11 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:



On Apr 12, 7:07?pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:56:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 9, 12:04?am, wrote:
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 17:15:08 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:
http://gizmodo.com/5104016/dean-kame...s-now-entirely...

Well, yeah. His home is typical of folks who invent the Segway or the
Pop-Tart. Bill Gates probably saves bags of money on air-conditioning by
living inside a mountain.

I guess you missed a few things, like the fact that part of getting
off the grid involved figuring out ways to use LESS energy.

There is no single magic bullet. If you have that sort of tunnel
vision, you are doomed to failure and extinction.

By using less energy, and producing more of it at the point of use,
you CAN save money. You don't have to be Bill Gates to do it, either.

EXCEPT the Florida rebate system is broke and all rebates are waiting
for more money to be allocated from Tallahassee so get in line behind
the cops, firemen and school teachers who just got their budgets cut
AKA never.

The state is accepting applications until June 30. While it is taking
forever to get rebates paid, it is happening slowly. There is a decent
chance that everyone who gets an application in will get paid. Some
people who applied a year ago are just now receiving checks. I think
you have to buy a system based on the merits without the rebate. If
you get it, you have just made a slam dunk investment. It's a risk
with a big reward.

On Apr 16, 8:03*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:19:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:54 am, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 05:40:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 14, 11:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:58:34 -0500, "[SMF]"
wrote:

On 4/14/2010 5:25 AM, wrote:

Who said anything about running an electric cooker off this system?

The AGM batteries will not double the cost, require zero maintenance
and in this application will likely last 8-10 years. Possibly more.
They can be located in a broom closet, basement, or anywhere else you
wish. They can even be hung upsiide down from the ceiling if you like.

Oh, and I have a gas range that can be operated manually just fine,
even when the power goes off. Not that that has anything to do with
this subject.

Try and pay better attention, dopey. You "might" learn something..

What is the cost of installing geo-thermal (system only)?

What is the cost of the solar panels?

What is the cost of mains interconnect (if planned)?

What is the cost of the charger/power supply/conditioner?

Batteries?

http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

It is never advised to store battery banks inside the residence. Back
in my off-grid days every source I ever referenced insisted that the
batteries be stored in their own shack, separate and at a safe distance
from the residence. Just because it is a sealed, VRLA battery does not
mean that it will not off-gas, hence the inherent fire hazard and the
need to store them away from structures and *NOT* have the electronics
inside their enclosure.

At that time (mid 90's) Trojan's were the recommended battery, were not
cheap, and at 6 volts each, required twice the quantity to obtain 12
volts, and four times the quantity to get 24.

Batteries do wear out and getting more than seven years out of them is
not to be expected.

Solar is inefficient and your expected Ah output for charging should be
halved when designing a system unless you plan on using a motorized
tracking system, and your expected useful output should be ~2/3 of the
sunrise/sunset time.

Note: This does not account for cloudy days. Only plan on getting 1/4
of the output in winter (this does not account for winter
weather). This accounts for shorter days and the lower
intensity of sunlight (more atmosphere) striking the panels.

Depending on location, 10% of rated output is the norm.

Solar panels wear out, too.

Whatever you *THINK* you need, double it.

Do plan on using grid power if you do not want *ANY* down time.

Other than for light loads, solar is only supplementary unless you
want to shell out the cost of a vehicle or two, and still not have
100% independence without another form of off-grid power.

It all depends on what you plan on running with the system. Motors
are not a favored load for a small system, since you not only have
to power the motors with the solar panels, you also have to charge
the batteries on top of the load. Two or more hot/cold, cloudy days
will get you, every time.

Plan for the worse, build for twice that.

A lot of what you say is based on very outmoded technology, and by
todays's standards, is simply incorrect. Just one example is that
there is no problem inherent with having AGM batteries located in the
living space. I have them on my boat in relatively tight quarters.

I'm very familiar with most aspects of the subject of solar panels and
batteries, because my second home is a sailboat that is completely off
the grid. I'm not a newbie at this.

Mixing apples and oranges. * A solar/battery system makes sense on a
boat because when away from the dock, you have no grid power and the
typical power requirements on a boat are modest. * For example, can
you run your AC system on that battery at night? * It would have to be
one hell of a big battery. * * *The cost/benefit equation changes
completely when you are talking about a large house that is connected
to the grid.

You are about as thick as any brick, and dumber than most dirt.

Please refrain from any more inane responses until you get some wisp
of a clue.

My home geo-thermal heating and air-conditioniung system will have all
of it's modest electricity needs met quite easily by solar panels and
batteries. It will run 24/7/365 that way, without any connection
whatsoever to the power grid.

Why exactly is it inane to do solar electric power the way every home
here that I have seen does it? * *Which is to say it's connected to
the grid, you use the power you generate and get credit for any excess
that you put into the grid. *In turn, the grid is available at night
or when it's not cloudy. * *And you don't use batteries.

What exactly is the point to buying an array of storage batteries and
if it's such a great idea, why is it that I have yet to see it done in
any normal residential application?

Are you on drugs, dude?

No, and no need to get nasty. The question remains. If using an
array of storage batteries per your scheme and using solar just the
geothermal system is cost effective versus the other more general
solar electric approach, which is used the vast majority of the time
and includes subsidies from utilities, govt, etc. why isn't your
approach widely done?



One last time:

The solar power system I am talking about is NOT for the purpose of
running all the lights and appliances in the ****ing house.

It will not be sized for that, and it will not be connected to the
general electrical system of the house.

It will be a dedicated component of the geothermal system ONLY.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -