On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat and
it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to cool
off.

On Mar 15, 9:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

==
I have seen situations where people have had their seats set too far
back from the steering wheel which reduces the power that could be
applied to the brake pedal. Mind you most of these people where fairly
obese and their bellies too large. Nevertheless this could be a factor
in stopping a run-a-way vehicle.
==

"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

On Mar 15, 11:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

I agree, I had a hot 327 Chevy Impala run away with me when the motor
mounts broke. Standing on the brakes choked the engine down. Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.

Jimmie

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:49:37 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat and
it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to cool
off.

Nope. That won't happen if the brakes are fully applied. Try it in your
own car: floor the accelerator, then step on the brake with your left
foot. The brakes will *easily* overcome the engine.

Yeah, I can believe that *if done from cold* - my speculation is that
drivers might be partially applying the brakes and overheating them -
after which they might not be sufficient to overcome the engine even with
the pedal pushed down as hard as they can manage (I've only ever
experienced severe brake fade in one vehicle when driving down mountain
roads, but it was surprising how quickly it came on and how utterly
useless the brakes were once they'd got too hot - on a downhill grade,
barely enough to stop the vehicle, but they were fine again once they'd
cooled off for a while)

In article , Jules Richardson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat and
it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to cool
off.

Nope. That won't happen if the brakes are fully applied. Try it in your own
car: floor the accelerator, then step on the brake with your left foot. The
brakes will *easily* overcome the engine. The only way applying the brakes
doesn't bring the car to a stop, even under full throttle, is if the brakes
are not applied all the way.

On Mar 15, 11:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

No, it wouldn't.

What people do is rather than stop the car right away and shut it
down, they use the brakes to CONTROL or MAINTAIN a certain speed. The
brakes quickly get HOT and quickly lose their effectiveness.

Burned brake smell means that those brakes are not going to do jack
squat no matter how hard you push on them.

Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

It's a case of "too stupid to shut the switch off".

--
LSMFT

Drive slower than the posted speed.............................
And you too can become a fracking prick..............

On Mar 15, 8:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

The antilock system causing the brakes to heat up?

Harry K

In article , Jules Richardson wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:49:37 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat and
it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to cool
off.

Nope. That won't happen if the brakes are fully applied. Try it in your
own car: floor the accelerator, then step on the brake with your left
foot. The brakes will *easily* overcome the engine.

Yeah, I can believe that *if done from cold* - my speculation is that
drivers might be partially applying the brakes and overheating them -

Right, that's exactly what I mean -- in which case the drivers are idiots.

after which they might not be sufficient to overcome the engine even with
the pedal pushed down as hard as they can manage (I've only ever
experienced severe brake fade in one vehicle when driving down mountain
roads, but it was surprising how quickly it came on and how utterly
useless the brakes were once they'd got too hot - on a downhill grade,
barely enough to stop the vehicle, but they were fine again once they'd
cooled off for a while)

That's why you should use the transmission to slow down, rather than the
brakes...

In article , wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:55=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

No, it wouldn't.

Of course it would. Read what I wrote.

What people do is rather than stop the car right away and shut it
down, they use the brakes to CONTROL or MAINTAIN a certain speed.

That contradicts what most of the drivers involved have stated.

The brakes quickly get HOT and quickly lose their effectiveness.

Yes, of course -- IF that's what the drivers are doing. But that's not what
they *say* they're doing...

Burned brake smell means that those brakes are not going to do jack
squat no matter how hard you push on them.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The question is what caused the brakes to get into
that condition in the first place.

In article , LSMFT wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights
on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

It's a case of "too stupid to shut the switch off".

Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".

On Mar 15, 2:35*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , LSMFT wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights
on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

It's a case of "too stupid to shut the switch off".

Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's often possible to tell if brakes have been severly overheated.
The rotors show heat damage and the pads will show glazing. I'm
thinking this vehicle was towed from the spot and these brakes went
under a microscope. I think this guy is a fraud. I heard on the news
today that he has a lawyer already.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:27:11 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:49:37 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car
isn't slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat
and it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to
cool off.

Nope. That won't happen if the brakes are fully applied. Try it in
your own car: floor the accelerator, then step on the brake with your
left foot. The brakes will *easily* overcome the engine.

Yeah, I can believe that *if done from cold* - my speculation is that
drivers might be partially applying the brakes and overheating them -

Right, that's exactly what I mean -- in which case the drivers are
idiots.

No argument there...

That's why you should use the transmission to slow down, rather than the
brakes...

Yes - I admit I was doing a certain amount of playing :-) Lots of the
grades were around 1:3, so it gave the car a pretty good work-out.

cheers

J.

Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

Possible malfunction of the anti-lock braking system? The systems
are so reliable and have been around for so long, what could have
gone wrong with the brakes on such a new vehicle?

TDD

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , LSMFT wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights
on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.
It's a case of "too stupid to shut the switch off".

Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".

Never underestimate how stupid an individual can be. I have
always been proven wrong every time I believe I've see it all.

TDD

On Mar 15, 11:52*am, Roy wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

==
I have seen situations where people have had their seats set too far
back from the steering wheel which reduces the power that could be
applied to the brake pedal. Mind you most of these people where fairly
obese and their bellies too large. Nevertheless this could be a factor
in stopping a run-a-way vehicle.
==

IME most newer cars have the opposite problem - when you set the seat
so that you have a comfortable reach to the steering wheel, your feet
are too *close* to the pedals. My older cars do not have this
problem. I do not know why this is, but my theory is that it is due
to concerns about airbag deployment.

nate

On Mar 15, 12:52*pm, Roy wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

==
I have seen situations where people have had their seats set too far
back from the steering wheel which reduces the power that could be
applied to the brake pedal. Mind you most of these people where fairly
obese and their bellies too large. Nevertheless this could be a factor
in stopping a run-a-way vehicle.
==

Agree; could be a factor. saw a guy in a bank recently who had a
stomach so large he looked pregnant with triplets!
Don't know how he could even reach the steering wheel!
Saw a TV programme, many years ago, on TV, about an advanced driving
course, where the students were learning how to skid their vehicle's
rear wheels.
One petite female student couldn't be taught to apply the brakes hard
enough to lock the back wheels.
Until the instructors discovered that the seat in her particular car
(IIRC it might have been one of those older smaller Fords that used to
catch fire if rear-ended?) could not be moved far enough forward for
her to apply the brake pedal fully.
She had been driving for some time before that. And seemingly had not
been applying the brakes fully even in a crash stop' situation'!
Don't remember much else about the course except that by putting a
pillow behind her back she was able to apply the brakes fully!
Scary; eh?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights
on."
http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from
being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That
would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

Anybody seen a Hydro-Boost unit with problems?? That's the one that was
used on cutaway vans, some 80's Lincolns, and I'm sure many others. It ran
off the power-steering pump, and had no vacuum can. I can't remember the
situation exactly, maybe bad check valve, but it was possible for the power
steering pump to push back on the pedal when applied, thereby releasing the
brakes. It's been too many years for me to remember for sure what could
cause it. Shutting the engine down would always allow them to work like any
non-power brake vehicle.

Lefty

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
: Doug Miller wrote:
: Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".

I guess that would be a case of over-revving the engine, although newer cars
may have a rev-limiter.

On Mar 15, 4:22*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:27:11 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:49:37 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:05 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car
isn't slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

If they cook then they'll fade and might not be enough to stop the
vehicle - maybe the 'problem' is that the owners partially apply the
brakes to try and combat the acceleration, then the brakes overheat
and it's not going to stop until they've been released and allowed to
cool off.

Nope. That won't happen if the brakes are fully applied. Try it in
your own car: floor the accelerator, then step on the brake with your
left foot. The brakes will *easily* overcome the engine.

Yeah, I can believe that *if done from cold* - my speculation is that
drivers might be partially applying the brakes and overheating them -

Right, that's exactly what I mean -- in which case the drivers are
idiots.

No argument there...

That's why you should use the transmission to slow down, rather than the
brakes...

Yes - I admit I was doing a certain amount of playing :-) Lots of the
grades were around 1:3, so it gave the car a pretty good work-out.

cheers

J.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There is one somewhat longer hill (about half a mile?) on the way into
this community. The speed limit is supposedly 50 kilometres = 30 mph.
With most traffic doing 60 = about 35 mph. With a school zone at the
bottom.
In a line up of cars it is very easy to see which ones have
transmissions that effectively slow down the vehicle without using the
brakes! Most automatic drivers will use their brakes; the brake lights
popping on the moment we are over the crest of the hill. Others
including a relative's older model Lexus have paddle shifters on the
steering wheel that work well. Otherwise we prefer the series of
manual transmission vehicles we have owned since the late 1970s.
Owning a brake franchise must be a money maker in this area?
Generally we get well over over 60,000 to 75,000 miles on a clutch and
at least 35,000 to 40,000 miles on disc brakes.
Doing the brake work ourselves a full set, including new rotors can be
done for around $200 or less.
The whole thing is we think; know your vehicle, know how to stop it no
matter what, know how vehicle handles (steering and brake wise) if the
engine stalls or conks out. Know how to use the emergency brake and
drive on it if necessary.
Above all have not encountered yet, although modern vehicles may be
different, a vehicle that one couldn't get 'out of gear'.
Vehicle driven since the early 1950s (that's about 60 years) have
included everything form a 1926 crash (non synchro) box, a Wilson pre-
selector (semi automatic), a British column shift manual; 1973
Plymouth, 1960s and 1970s Chev Impalas, manual VWs, manual Toyota
pickups, manual Nissans etc. etc.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:35:44 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

It's a case of "too stupid to shut the switch off".

Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".

Edmunds.com shows that trying to put the Prius in reverse will not
work or damage the vehicle. The alarm beeps and goes right into
neutral (70 mph).

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqG4m...ure=popt02us02

The Daring Dufas wrote:


Possible malfunction of the anti-lock braking system? The systems
are so reliable and have been around for so long, what could have
gone wrong with the brakes on such a new vehicle?


Rule: "Fail-safe systems often fail by failing to fail safe."

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:
Yes - I admit I was doing a certain amount of playing :-) Lots of the
grades were around 1:3, so it gave the car a pretty good work-out.

There is one somewhat longer hill

I'm not sure what the total descent I did in this case was - it took a
while to get to the bottom (with a stop partway down to give the brakes a
rest!)...

In a line up of cars it is very easy to see which ones have
transmissions that effectively slow down the vehicle without using the
brakes! Most automatic drivers will use their brakes; the brake lights
popping on the moment we are over the crest of the hill.

Yes, I've always owned vehicles with manual transmissions in the past -
the wife's Toyota (not one affected with problems has a slushbox and I
much prefer something with a manual, even if it's a clunky one.

including a relative's older model Lexus have paddle shifters on the
steering wheel that work well.

I was going to say that I like to keep everything mechanical if I can -
but then the elderly truck has a 3-speed manual with column-mounted
shifter, so there's probably quite a bit of scope for something failing,
given all the linkages involved!

Generally we get well over
over 60,000 to 75,000 miles on a clutch and at least 35,000 to 40,000
miles on disc brakes.

I've normally had about 100,000 out of a clutch - I don't think I've ever
figured out brake life, though; I just check periodically and do whatever
needs doing.

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

The whole thing is we think; know your vehicle, know how to stop it no
matter what, know how vehicle handles (steering and brake wise) if the
engine stalls or conks out. Know how to use the emergency brake and
drive on it if necessary.

Absolutely. I wish there were more places folk could go to deliberately
try out some of the "unexpected" stuff...

Above all have not encountered yet, although modern vehicles may be
different, a vehicle that one couldn't get 'out of gear'.

I've had cars before with hydraulic clutch mechanisms, so I suppose
there's some opportunity there for something breaking such that the
clutch doesn't operate - but it's not usually difficult to pull out of
gear even without a clutch (and harder but not impossible to get one
smoothly into gear without a clutch, too)

cheers

Jules

: : Doug Miller wrote:
: : Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".
:
: I guess that would be a case of over-revving the engine, although newer
cars
: may have a rev-limiter.
:
: WHO F**KING CARES if it over-revs the engine -- destroying the engine is a
: damn sight better than piling into a bridge abutment at 100+mph like that
CHP
: officer did a while back!

That's funny - I don't remember saying I cared. I simply made a statement.
One thing for sure - I don't ****ING care what you think. Clear enough?

In article , "JawBone" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
: Doug Miller wrote:
: Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".

I guess that would be a case of over-revving the engine, although newer cars
may have a rev-limiter.

WHO F**KING CARES if it over-revs the engine -- destroying the engine is a
damn sight better than piling into a bridge abutment at 100+mph like that CHP
officer did a while back!

"Doug Miller" wrote

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't
slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from
being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal.

In the case of the Prius in SD, I'd say the driver was faking it. Very
suspicious circumstances.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically
slamming the brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who
was giving Sikes instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning
brakes and saw the lights on." http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car
isn't slowing down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes
from being fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to
the pedal. That would be consistent with the multiple reports of
drivers "standing on the pedal" while the car continues to
accelerate.

Possible malfunction of the anti-lock braking system? The systems
are so reliable and have been around for so long, what could have
gone wrong with the brakes on such a new vehicle?

I've had a 2001 Toyota 4runner try to swerve me into the opposing traffic lane
when the "anti-skid" brakes decided I was in a skid and suddenly applied the
brakes on the left side during a wide right turn. I managed to keep on my side
of the road, but I was sure unhappy with the brake action. It was a total
surprise.

Turned out that one tire had low pressure in it. Apparently the brake system
computer didn't know how to respond to a low tire on a turn. The fact is, trying
to quantify all the parameters into a program is not necessarily going to handle
all conditions safely. I feel much safer driving a car without anti-skid brakes
since this incident.

In article , "JawBone" wrote:
: : Doug Miller wrote:
: : Or "too stupid to shift into neutral".
:
: I guess that would be a case of over-revving the engine, although newer
cars
: may have a rev-limiter.
:
: WHO F**KING CARES if it over-revs the engine -- destroying the engine is a
: damn sight better than piling into a bridge abutment at 100+mph like that
CHP
: officer did a while back!

That's funny - I don't remember saying I cared. I simply made a statement.
One thing for sure - I don't ****ING care what you think. Clear enough?

plonk

On Mar 15, 2:21*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:
Yes - I admit I was doing a certain amount of playing :-) Lots of the
grades were around 1:3, so it gave the car a pretty good work-out.

There is one somewhat longer hill

I'm not sure what the total descent I did in this case was - it took a
while to get to the bottom (with a stop partway down to give the brakes a
rest!)...

In a line up of cars it is very easy to see which ones have
transmissions that effectively slow down the vehicle without using the
brakes! Most automatic drivers will use their brakes; the brake lights
popping on the moment we are over the crest of the hill.

Yes, I've always owned vehicles with manual transmissions in the past -
the wife's Toyota (not one affected with problems has a slushbox and I
much prefer something with a manual, even if it's a clunky one.

including a relative's older model Lexus have paddle shifters on the
steering wheel that work well.

I was going to say that I like to keep everything mechanical if I can -
but then the elderly truck has a 3-speed manual with column-mounted
shifter, so there's probably quite a bit of scope for something failing,
given all the linkages involved!

Generally we get well over
over 60,000 to 75,000 miles on a clutch and at least 35,000 to 40,000
miles on disc brakes.

I've normally had about 100,000 out of a clutch - I don't think I've ever
figured out brake life, though; I just check periodically and do whatever
needs doing.

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

The whole thing is we think; know your vehicle, know how to stop it no
matter what, know how vehicle handles (steering and brake wise) if the
engine stalls or conks out. Know how to use the emergency brake and
drive on it if necessary.

Absolutely. I wish there were more places folk could go to deliberately
try out some of the "unexpected" stuff...

Above all have not encountered yet, although modern vehicles may be
different, a vehicle that one couldn't get 'out of gear'.

I've had cars before with hydraulic clutch mechanisms, so I suppose
there's some opportunity there for something breaking such that the
clutch doesn't operate - but it's not usually difficult to pull out of
gear even without a clutch (and harder but not impossible to get one
smoothly into gear without a clutch, too)

cheers

Jules

Yep on the hydro clutch. Blew the slave cylinder at the clutch out in
the boonies on my f150. Started it in gear and used 2, 3 and 4
through back roads back to the house. Did have a problem with a few
stop signs but California stops work

Harry K

On Mar 15, 12:43*pm, N8N wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:52*am, Roy wrote:





On Mar 15, 9:55*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

"Gomez said the best evidence that his client was frantically slamming the
brakes is that a California Highway Patrol officer who was giving Sikes
instructions over a loudspeaker smelled burning brakes and saw the lights on."http://www.foxnews.
com/leisure/2010/03/15/govt-explain-runaway-calif-prius-incident/

Brake lights on, brakes getting hot enough to stink, yet the car isn't slowing
down -- brakes clearly are *not* fully applied.

I wonder if there's some sort of problem that prevents the brakes from being
fully applied, no matter how much pressure is applied to the pedal. That would
be consistent with the multiple reports of drivers "standing on the pedal"
while the car continues to accelerate.

==
I have seen situations where people have had their seats set too far
back from the steering wheel which reduces the power that could be
applied to the brake pedal. Mind you most of these people where fairly
obese and their bellies too large. Nevertheless this could be a factor
in stopping a run-a-way vehicle.
==

IME most newer cars have the opposite problem - when you set the seat
so that you have a comfortable reach to the steering wheel, your feet
are too *close* to the pedals. *My older cars do not have this
problem. *I do not know why this is, but my theory is that it is due
to concerns about airbag deployment.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Same here with my Ford 500. I cannot achieve a happy medium. Drove a
recent Focus as a loaner (f150 in for major tune-up) today and one
would have to be a freak to be really comfortable.

Harry K

"JIMMIE" wrote

I agree, I had a hot 327 Chevy Impala run away with me when the motor
mounts broke. Standing on the brakes choked the engine down. Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.

Jimmie

Did you see the latest on the news tonight? He hit the brakes many times in
short burst (probably to heat them up) not in the long "stand on" he stated.
Seems they wee found to be working properly.

"Doug Miller" wrote
Thank you, Captain Obvious. The question is what caused the brakes to get
into
that condition in the first place.

Intentional heating by repeated application of the brake pedal according to
the news. I thing we can stop speculating and assume the guy is a fraud.

JIMMIE wrote:

Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.


A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?

If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.

This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.

Ok, I'm probably going to end up through the ringer by people on here,
but thats beside the point. I am currently the owner of a 2000 Toyota
Camry LE 4cyl. with 213,000 kms. I know its not a Prius, but I tried
something with the car that surprised me. Recently I had all of my
brake pads replaced due to wear. They were squealing and old and
needed changing, but before I changed them, I did an experiment. I
took my Camry on the highway (rated at 100 km/h) and slammed on the
brakes while also applying the accelerator. The car stopped. I could
smell the brakes burning, and she didn't slow down as quickly as
normal, but the damn thing stopped. I know, there have been cases of
unintended acceleration that were deemed to be at fault to Toyota, and
I completely agree, but now, some of these claims are getting
ridiculous. Sikes' claims that he was too scared to shift into Neutral
for fear of control loss of the vehicle, but was able to try and grab
the 'stuck' accelerator without incident? C'mon, something stinks with
his story. Its more then just problematic pedals and faulty floor
mats, its politics. Chrysler and GM are both children of the US
government. As most investors would want, the government now wants to
see that investment thrive. Toyota, being the new #1 seller of
vehicles in North America is now the enemy and must be removed from
their throne at all costs. I'm trying not to be biased here, but its
kinda hard. It seems like every day, GM has a new recall, whether it
be with the Camaro's wiring suddenly igniting the car on fire, or a
malibus transmission that will without notice slip into Neutral while
parked on its own. I have had my share of GM's. Nothing beats the
trucks they put out, but the cars imo stink. I had a brand new
Cavalier that was nothing but problem after problem. So, I ask, why
can a 10 year old car manage to stop itself with old brakes while the
accelerator is also depressed, but a 2 year old prius can't?

camryguy wrote:
Ok, I'm probably going to end up through the ringer by people on here,
but thats beside the point. I am currently the owner of a 2000 Toyota
Camry LE 4cyl. with 213,000 kms. I know its not a Prius, but I tried
something with the car that surprised me. Recently I had all of my
brake pads replaced due to wear. They were squealing and old and
needed changing, but before I changed them, I did an experiment. I
took my Camry on the highway (rated at 100 km/h) and slammed on the
brakes while also applying the accelerator. The car stopped. I could
smell the brakes burning, and she didn't slow down as quickly as
normal, but the damn thing stopped. I know, there have been cases of
unintended acceleration that were deemed to be at fault to Toyota, and
I completely agree, but now, some of these claims are getting
ridiculous. Sikes' claims that he was too scared to shift into Neutral
for fear of control loss of the vehicle, but was able to try and grab
the 'stuck' accelerator without incident? C'mon, something stinks with
his story. Its more then just problematic pedals and faulty floor
mats, its politics. Chrysler and GM are both children of the US
government. As most investors would want, the government now wants to
see that investment thrive. Toyota, being the new #1 seller of
vehicles in North America is now the enemy and must be removed from
their throne at all costs. I'm trying not to be biased here, but its
kinda hard. It seems like every day, GM has a new recall, whether it
be with the Camaro's wiring suddenly igniting the car on fire, or a
malibus transmission that will without notice slip into Neutral while
parked on its own. I have had my share of GM's. Nothing beats the
trucks they put out, but the cars imo stink. I had a brand new
Cavalier that was nothing but problem after problem. So, I ask, why
can a 10 year old car manage to stop itself with old brakes while the
accelerator is also depressed, but a 2 year old prius can't?
Hi,
Your car was not running away. Wrong analogy.
At this point no one knows for sure of what is going on.

In article , Tony Hwang wrote:
camryguy wrote:
Ok, I'm probably going to end up through the ringer by people on here,
but thats beside the point. I am currently the owner of a 2000 Toyota
Camry LE 4cyl. with 213,000 kms. I know its not a Prius, but I tried
something with the car that surprised me. Recently I had all of my
brake pads replaced due to wear. They were squealing and old and
needed changing, but before I changed them, I did an experiment. I
took my Camry on the highway (rated at 100 km/h) and slammed on the
brakes while also applying the accelerator. The car stopped. I could
smell the brakes burning, and she didn't slow down as quickly as
normal, but the damn thing stopped. I know, there have been cases of
unintended acceleration that were deemed to be at fault to Toyota, and
I completely agree, but now, some of these claims are getting
ridiculous.
[...]
Hi,
Your car was not running away. Wrong analogy.

Oh, bull****. He proved that the brakes are perfectly capable of stopping the
vehicle even at wide open throttle -- which points directly to driver error
(or driver stupidity) as the reason for the "runaways".

At this point no one knows for sure of what is going on.

Only partially true. At this point, no one knows for sure why some Toyotas
_seem to_ suddenly and spontaneously go to WOT. But we *do* know that *when*
this happens, if the vehicle keeps going at high speed for an extended period,
*that* is due to panic, error, or stupidity on the part of the driver -- or,
as appears to be the case in the Sikes incident, deliberate action.

In article , camryguy wrote:
[...]
Its more then just problematic pedals and faulty floor
mats, its politics. Chrysler and GM are both children of the US
government. As most investors would want, the government now wants to
see that investment thrive. Toyota, being the new #1 seller of
vehicles in North America is now the enemy and must be removed from
their throne at all costs.

It's not necessary to invoke elaborate conspiracy theories to explain the rash
of "runaway acceleration" reports involving Toyotas. Mass hysteria is a more
than sufficient explanation, and the news media are certainly fueling it.

wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:43:58 -0600, bud--
wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:
Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.

A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?

If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.

This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.

At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.

Do you think it is reasonable that there is not a mechanical-hydraulic
base function at the bottom of the pedal travel, just like there is on
every car with power brakes - stops the car if the 'power' function fails?


Has any one proved that the ABS system couldn't possibly malfuntion
and rapidly "pump the brakes" causing it to appear as if the driver
had done so, when in fact, all he did was stand on the brakes?

Didn't think so.


So there was a failure in the throttle control and another failure in
the ABS control? (Maybe they are Windows applications.) And this person
had both failures? (Prius is one of the cars that has had throttle
runaway.) And this person, coincidentally, also refused to shift into
neutral as he was told numerous times?

The California runaway is sounding more each day like fraud.

wrote:

At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.

That is why representatives from the Highway Safety people were also
involved, not just Toyota.



Has any one proved that the ABS system couldn't possibly malfuntion
and rapidly "pump the brakes" causing it to appear as if the driver
had done so, when in fact, all he did was stand on the brakes?

Didn't think so.

Yes, if you read up on them and how they work. You should also look at the
report and how they determined the brakes were manually applied, not by the
ABS. My guess is the driver had no idea how much information is recorded
on his car and if he did, he would not have tried the fraud.

It may take some time, but he is probably going to share a cell with Balloon
Boy in the future.