Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote:

At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.

That is why representatives from the Highway Safety people were also
involved, not just Toyota.



Has any one proved that the ABS system couldn't possibly malfuntion
and rapidly "pump the brakes" causing it to appear as if the driver
had done so, when in fact, all he did was stand on the brakes?

Didn't think so.

Yes, if you read up on them and how they work. You should also look
at the report and how they determined the brakes were manually
applied, not by the ABS. My guess is the driver had no idea how
much information is recorded on his car and if he did, he would not
have tried the fraud.
It may take some time, but he is probably going to share a cell with
Balloon Boy in the future.

Nonsense. Ballon Boy was just a innocent kid, doing what daddy told him.

Daddy? Maybe.

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote:

At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.

That is why representatives from the Highway Safety people were also
involved, not just Toyota.



Has any one proved that the ABS system couldn't possibly malfuntion
and rapidly "pump the brakes" causing it to appear as if the driver
had done so, when in fact, all he did was stand on the brakes?

Didn't think so.

Yes, if you read up on them and how they work. You should also look
at the report and how they determined the brakes were manually
applied, not by the ABS. My guess is the driver had no idea how
much information is recorded on his car and if he did, he would not
have tried the fraud.
It may take some time, but he is probably going to share a cell with
Balloon Boy in the future.

Nonsense. Ballon Boy was just a innocent kid, doing what daddy told him.

Daddy? Maybe.



I think people know who I was referring to (except for you)

On Mar 16, 3:57*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:43:58 -0600, bud--
wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:
Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.

A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?

If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.

This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.

At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.

Do you think it is reasonable that there is not a mechanical-hydraulic
base function at the bottom of the pedal travel, just like there is on
every car with power brakes - stops the car if the 'power' function fails?



snip

???? Never heard of such a thing. I can turn off the key in every
car I ever drove and it will keep on down the road until momentum runs
out.

Harry K

On Mar 18, 9:38*am, bud-- wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:57 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:43:58 -0600, bud--
wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.
A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?
If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.
This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.
At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.
Do you think it is reasonable that there is not a mechanical-hydraulic
base function at the bottom of the pedal travel, just like there is on
every car with power brakes - stops the car if the 'power' function fails?

snip

???? *Never heard of such a thing. *I can turn off the key in every
car I ever drove and it will keep on down the road until momentum runs
out.

Harry K

In any car with power brakes, if the power brakes fail and you push the
pedal hard the brakes are applied by a simple mechanical-hydraulic
system, just like before power brake assist was invented. If the power
function fails, you still have the mechanical backup (but it takes a
more pedal pressure).

It is inconceivable that Prius would not have that function as a backup
on its brake system (which has a computer to control regeneration). My
reading of post I responded to is that since Prius brakes are computer
controlled, if you loose the computer you have no brakes.

Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The Prius (and similar hybrids) are a whole different animal and I
don't know much about them. There fore I usually don't comment on
their specific controls.

The 'loose power and it stops the car' is too far out there though...
I had to admire my 70 year old mother. She lost the water pump on a
junker of a Mercury station wagon with power everything. I pushed her
almost 20 miles including through a twon with 3 stop lights. In
retrospect I should have paid for a tow.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:57 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:43:58 -0600, bud--
wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.
A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?
If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.
This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.
At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.
Do you think it is reasonable that there is not a mechanical-hydraulic
base function at the bottom of the pedal travel, just like there is on
every car with power brakes - stops the car if the 'power' function fails?



snip

???? Never heard of such a thing. I can turn off the key in every
car I ever drove and it will keep on down the road until momentum runs
out.

Harry K

In any car with power brakes, if the power brakes fail and you push the
pedal hard the brakes are applied by a simple mechanical-hydraulic
system, just like before power brake assist was invented. If the power
function fails, you still have the mechanical backup (but it takes a
more pedal pressure).

It is inconceivable that Prius would not have that function as a backup
on its brake system (which has a computer to control regeneration). My
reading of post I responded to is that since Prius brakes are computer
controlled, if you loose the computer you have no brakes.

Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:38:20 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:57 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:43:58 -0600, bud--
wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
Since the
computer also controls braking on the Prius I wouldn't doubt if that
is malfunctioning too.
A computer gets involved for regenerative braking. You think there are
no brakes with a dead battery?
If you push hard on the pedal you get mechanical hydraulic braking -
just like on any car when the power brakes fail.
This was verified by a Prius dealer service rep.
At this point, anybody who gets a paycheck connected to Toyota is
automatically disqualified as a trusted source. They have a massive
motive to mislead in any way possible.
Do you think it is reasonable that there is not a mechanical-hydraulic
base function at the bottom of the pedal travel, just like there is on
every car with power brakes - stops the car if the 'power' function fails?



snip

???? Never heard of such a thing. I can turn off the key in every
car I ever drove and it will keep on down the road until momentum runs
out.

Harry K

In any car with power brakes, if the power brakes fail and you push the
pedal hard the brakes are applied by a simple mechanical-hydraulic
system, just like before power brake assist was invented. If the power
function fails, you still have the mechanical backup (but it takes a
more pedal pressure).

It is inconceivable that Prius would not have that function as a backup
on its brake system (which has a computer to control regeneration). My
reading of post I responded to is that since Prius brakes are computer
controlled, if you loose the computer you have no brakes.

Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the
hydraulic system? Does something stop the master cylinder from
making pressure?

Antiskid brakes are the best example. The electronics release the brakes when
the tire begins to skid. What happens when the electronics go crazy? Who knows?

"Bob F" wrote
Antiskid brakes are the best example. The electronics release the brakes
when the tire begins to skid. What happens when the electronics go crazy?
Who knows?

Actually, a lot of people know. They default to plain hydraulic brakes.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the
hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.

You mean like an asteroid hitting the highway and bouncing up under the car.
OK that could happen.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:46:25 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the
hydraulic system? Does something stop the master cylinder from
making pressure?

Antiskid brakes are the best example. The electronics release the brakes when
the tire begins to skid. What happens when the electronics go crazy? Who knows?


When the electronics go crazy on antilock, you get manual braking.
Might loose braking on first application, worst case.

Now, a MECHANICAL failure in the ABS CAN make your brakes totally
ineffective.
Had the gear fall off the brake modulator motor on my '95 Pontiac
TranSport and it made the rear brakes totally inoperative.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., Untill
activated braking is normal.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:22:00 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:35:51 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:46:25 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the
hydraulic system? Does something stop the master cylinder from
making pressure?

Antiskid brakes are the best example. The electronics release the brakes when
the tire begins to skid. What happens when the electronics go crazy? Who knows?


When the electronics go crazy on antilock, you get manual braking.

No, the results may be completely and totally UNPREDICTABLE. You can't
state how they will work when they are not operating the way they were
designed to operate normally.

Might loose braking on first application, worst case.

Now, a MECHANICAL failure in the ABS CAN make your brakes totally
ineffective.
Had the gear fall off the brake modulator motor on my '95 Pontiac
TranSport and it made the rear brakes totally inoperative.

Are you now claiming that 2009 Toyotas have 1995 Pontiac braking
systems in them, or that 1995 Pontiacs have 2009 braking systems in
them?
Didn't say that, but unlike you, I DO know how ABS works. I know the
failure modes..
I've likely forgotten more about cars than you will EVER know.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., Untill
activated braking is normal.

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a false lockup
detection.


The only thing that can and WILL cause reduced braking power at WOT is
improper use of the brake. The brake MUST be applied firmly and
steadily to a stop. IF YOU PUMP (or release) THE BRAKE, you HAVE LOST
BRAKING POWER.
There is NO MANIFOLD VACUUM at WOT.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:20:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., Untill
activated braking is normal.

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.


That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a false lockup
detection.



That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION

Just as I thought. You have NO understanding of how the system works -
and therefore no INKLING of what infitesemely small chance there is of
such a thing happening ONCE - much less dozens of times, as is alleged
to have happened.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:28:08 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:02:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:20:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., Untill
activated braking is normal.

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.


That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a false lockup
detection.



That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION

Just as I thought. You have NO understanding of how the system works -
and therefore no INKLING of what infitesemely small chance there is of
such a thing happening ONCE - much less dozens of times, as is alleged
to have happened.

Maybe you need to go look up the word MALFUNCTION. You seem to be a
little fuzzy on what it means.
I know exactly what malfunction means - but you need to understand the
FUNCTION first.

On Mar 20, 11:28*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:28:08 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:02:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:20:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
*The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? *Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
*ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., *Untill
activated braking is normal. *

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a *false lockup
detection.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION

Just as I thought. You have NO understanding of how the system works -
and therefore no INKLING of what infitesemely small chance there is of
such a thing happening ONCE - much less dozens of times, as is alleged
to have happened.

Maybe you need to go look up the word MALFUNCTION. You seem to be a
little fuzzy on what it means.

I know exactly what malfunction means - but you need to understand the
FUNCTION first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once again, you are dead wrong here. First, you don't know the
specifics of how the actual ABS system is designed or works in the
Prius. Without that, you are already speculating. Any car with ABS
has a computer controlling the hydraulic pressure that is going to
each wheel. The computer is looking for a wheel starting to lock up,
at which point it reduces the pressure to that wheel to get it
spinning normally again. So, tell us why a malfunction in the ABS
computer could not command 2 wheels, or all 4 wheels to minimum
pressure continuously? Have you not seen your own PC hang in some
endless program loop?

Now I also remember you telling us how manufacturers are now making
cars with only two computers and some have only one. You claimed some
cars have the ABS, climate control, and radio all run off of one
central computer. I've showed you this is a crock, complete with
multiple links. You've provided nada. However, let's go with your
claim that the engine computer and ABS are commonly co-mingled into
one computer. So, now you have the computer that has malfunctioned
in control of both the throttle and to a significant extent, also the
brakes. Note, I am not saying this is a high probability event or
that it explains what has happened in these runaway cars. But it's
impossible to rule out. If you can do so, tell us exactly how it's
impossible for whatever computer is controlling the ABS to not cause a
loss of at least some braking capability during a malfunction.

Note, I still say IMO, the latest incident with Sikes is a hoax
because of many other factors.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:20:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 20, 11:28Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:28:08 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:02:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:20:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal.
Â*The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? Â*Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
Â*ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., Â*Untill
activated braking is normal. Â*

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a Â*false lockup
detection.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION

Just as I thought. You have NO understanding of how the system works -
and therefore no INKLING of what infitesemely small chance there is of
such a thing happening ONCE - much less dozens of times, as is alleged
to have happened.

Maybe you need to go look up the word MALFUNCTION. You seem to be a
little fuzzy on what it means.

I know exactly what malfunction means - but you need to understand the
FUNCTION first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once again, you are dead wrong here. First, you don't know the
specifics of how the actual ABS system is designed or works in the
Prius. Without that, you are already speculating. Any car with ABS
has a computer controlling the hydraulic pressure that is going to
each wheel. The computer is looking for a wheel starting to lock up,
at which point it reduces the pressure to that wheel to get it
spinning normally again. So, tell us why a malfunction in the ABS
computer could not command 2 wheels, or all 4 wheels to minimum
pressure continuously? Have you not seen your own PC hang in some
endless program loop?


I've seen PCs do that - but the ABS computer is a much simpler system
with no GUI and only a single hard coded program which watches 4
incoming pulse trains and the brake light switch.and compares the
frequency of those 4 pulse trains. If, with the brake light switch
active, one excedes the frequency of any or all of the others, the
circuit related to the signal with the lower frequency is activated,
putting the ABS cuicuit for that wheel into effect. The ABS device
shuts off the pressure from the master cyl to the accumulator for that
brake circuit, and a motor winds the piston in that accumulator down
to reduce the hydraulic pressure untill the wheel stops skidding
(starts turning the same speed as the faster wheel) at which it
reverses and puts the pressure back up till it reaches incipient
lockup again - and continues to modulate the pressure untill the pedal
is released. During this active phase, pushing harder on the brake
cannot increase the hydraulic pressure on that circuit. If the pedal
is released, when the accumulator piston comes back up the fluid
returns to the master cyl wirhout pressurizing the brake circuit, the
same as with non-abs brakes.
If the pedal is released while the brake is in lockup, the fluid
pressure is reduced and the accumulator returns to the full pressure
position.. With any mechanical malfunction of the ABS causing one
brake (or more) to not apply, the ABS warning light comes on and stays
on until the vehicle is shut off.
With any electrical or electronic failure causing an accumulator to
stay in the low-pressure position, the ABS light is also turned on..

Nobody to this point has reported the brake warning light to be on.

It would be a pretty complex failure mode that would affect all 4
wheels, not turn on the ABS warning light, and not be VERY evident
when investigators check the vehicle. In other words, the chances of
it happening and not being provable are EXTREMELY low.

So low as to be VIRTUALLY impossible.


Same with the regen braking control on a hybrid. When the grake pedal
is depressed, without computer intervention the hydraulic brakes work
normally. With the computer working and requesting regenerative
braking the motor is switched to operate as a generator slowing the
vehicle down, and if the pedal is pressed farther, they hydraulics
come into effect.

From the way it has been described to me, there is NOTHING the
computer can do to "shut off" the hydraulic braking system.
And with the power control system calling for power, there is no way
the regenerative braking system can also be engaged - impossible
because of the way Hybryd Synergy Drive works. Using the same
components for drive and braking, they cannot do both at once.

Impossible.
And regenerative braking is initiated as soon as you lift your foot
from the gas. Don't need to touch the brake at all.
So the only viable scenario for reduced braking at WOT is improper
emergency use of the brake.
It MUST be applied FIRMLY AND STEADILY - WITHOUT RELEASE - otherwise
vacuum boost is lost and brake pressure is reduced.. ANd on the Prius,
because it can run without the gasoline engine running, there is a
standby electric vacuum pump to give vacuum to the booster even with
no engine vacuum - so on a hybrid that pump would ALSO need to fail in
order to reduce the brake pressure.

Now I also remember you telling us how manufacturers are now making
cars with only two computers and some have only one. You claimed some
cars have the ABS, climate control, and radio all run off of one
central computer. I've showed you this is a crock, complete with
multiple links. You've provided nada. However, let's go with your
claim that the engine computer and ABS are commonly co-mingled into
one computer. So, now you have the computer that has malfunctioned
in control of both the throttle and to a significant extent, also the
brakes. Note, I am not saying this is a high probability event or
that it explains what has happened in these runaway cars. But it's
impossible to rule out. If you can do so, tell us exactly how it's
impossible for whatever computer is controlling the ABS to not cause a
loss of at least some braking capability during a malfunction.

I just explained how ABS works. Not impossible to lose SOME braking
capability - but not without turning on a warning light and leaving
evidence.

I'd say it is EXTREMELY unlikely the ABS has been involved in ANY way,
in ANY of the reported ren-aways - Hybrid or otherwise. So small a
possibility as to be statistically irellevent or virtually
impossible.

Note, I still say IMO, the latest incident with Sikes is a hoax
because of many other factors.

On Mar 21, 3:43*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:20:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 11:28*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:28:08 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:02:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:20:51 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:13:19 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:26:35 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:13:41 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:20:35 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:07:22 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

wrote
Brakes are, of course, only applied when you push the pedal..
*The hydraulic brakes still work perfectly fine on a Prius if the
computer quits or goes "APE"

Unless they don't.

Could you give us a scenario where the computer will override the hydraulic
system? *Does something stop the master cylinder from making pressure?

Something may interfere with the pressure getting to the wheels.. This
is especially true of cars with ABS.
*ABS only REDUCES the pressure when the wheels skid., *Untill
activated braking is normal. *

Well, gee, Clare. What would happen if you were at highway speed and
the computer malfunctioned and caused full accelleration along with
reduced braking power? Maybe you just solved the mystery of why all
these people are saying the brakes wouldn't stop the car even though
they were "standing on the brakes".

YOU explain to me how anything that could/would cause the throttle to
go to WOT could have any effect on the ABS sytem - specifically cause
a false lockup detection - or how anthing that could/would cause a
false lockup detection on the ABS could cause the throttle to go to
WOT.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION.

Or even how a REAL lockup detection could cause the throttle to go to
WOT - or how a real WOT condition could cause a *false lockup
detection.

That's easy. It's called a MALFUNCTION

Just as I thought. You have NO understanding of how the system works -
and therefore no INKLING of what infitesemely small chance there is of
such a thing happening ONCE - much less dozens of times, as is alleged
to have happened.

Maybe you need to go look up the word MALFUNCTION. You seem to be a
little fuzzy on what it means.

I know exactly what malfunction means - but you need to understand the
FUNCTION first.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once again, you are dead wrong here. * First, you don't know the
specifics of how the actual ABS system is designed or works in the
Prius. Without that, you are already speculating. * *Any car with ABS
has a computer controlling the hydraulic pressure that is going to
each wheel. * The computer is looking for a wheel starting to lock up,
at which point it reduces the pressure to that wheel to get it
spinning normally again. * So, tell us why a malfunction in the ABS
computer could not command 2 wheels, or all 4 wheels to minimum
pressure continuously? * * *Have you not seen your own PC hang in some
endless program loop?

I've seen PCs do that - but the ABS computer is a much simpler system
with no GUI and only a single hard coded program which watches 4
incoming pulse trains and the brake light switch.and compares the
frequency of those 4 pulse trains.

Even simple computers can fail. Less likely yes, but that is
different from saying it's just impossible. And how did it suddenly
become so simple? You were telling us that the trend is that ALL the
computing function is being centralized in one or two computers in
cars today to save money. You specifically told us before that
some cars have the same computer that is doing the ABS doing the
climate control and the radio. So, how is it that now the ABS
computer is just a simple computer looking at pulse streams? It
should be monitoring the air temp, the outside air temp, sending the
radio station identification to the radio display, responding to the
driver turning the tuning knob, and God only knows what else. You
said it was easy, practical and safe to develop cars that way. I
said it was a crock.



If, with the brake light switch
active, one excedes the frequency of any or all of the others, the
circuit related to the signal with the lower frequency is activated,
putting the ABS cuicuit for that wheel into effect. The ABS device
shuts off the pressure from the master cyl to the accumulator for that
brake circuit, and a motor winds the piston in that accumulator down
to reduce the hydraulic pressure untill the wheel stops skidding
(starts turning the same speed as the faster wheel) at which it
reverses and puts the pressure back up till it reaches incipient
lockup again - and continues to modulate the pressure untill the pedal
is released. During this active phase, pushing harder on the brake
cannot increase the hydraulic pressure on that circuit. If the pedal
is released, when the accumulator piston comes back up the fluid
returns to the master cyl wirhout pressurizing the brake circuit, the
same as with non-abs brakes.
*If the pedal is released while the brake is in lockup, the fluid
pressure is reduced and the accumulator returns to the full pressure
position.. With any mechanical malfunction of the ABS causing one
brake (or more) to not apply, the ABS warning light comes on and stays
on until the vehicle is shut off.
With any electrical or electronic failure causing an accumulator to
stay in the low-pressure position, the ABS light is also turned on..

Nobody to this point has reported the brake warning light to be on.

I didn't see you make that qualification when you wanted to know how a
computer could interfere with the braking, implying it was
impossible. You've just answered your own question. A
malfunctioning ABS computer could do it. Also, if the ABS computer is
stuck in some unforeseen mode and not responding, what makes you think
it's going to put the ABS light on?



It would be a pretty complex failure mode that would affect all 4
wheels, not turn on the ABS warning light, and not be VERY evident
when investigators check the vehicle. In other words, the chances of
it happening and not being provable are EXTREMELY low.

I agree with that, but that is different from stating that it's
impossible for the computer to compromise the braking, which is the
argument I believe you were making.



So low as to be VIRTUALLY *impossible.

Same with the regen braking control on a hybrid. When the grake pedal
is depressed, without computer intervention the hydraulic brakes work
normally. With the computer working and requesting regenerative
braking the motor is switched to operate as a generator slowing the
vehicle down, and if the pedal is pressed farther, they hydraulics
come into effect.

*From the way it has been described to me, there is NOTHING the
computer can do to "shut off" the hydraulic braking system.

That should give us all lots of confidence. Have you found that car
where the ABS, climate control and radio all use one computer?



And with the power control system calling for power, there is no way
the regenerative braking system can also be engaged - impossible
because *of the way Hybryd Synergy Drive works. Using the same
components for drive and braking, they cannot do both at once.

Impossible.
*And regenerative braking is initiated as soon as you lift your foot
from the gas. Don't need to touch the brake at all.
*So the only viable scenario for reduced braking at WOT is improper
emergency use of the brake.

You just like going further and further out on a limb, don't you? I
think you'd have a very hard time in court with a judge, where you
have to separate what you know as a fact from here-say, opinion, and
conjecture.


It MUST be applied FIRMLY AND STEADILY - WITHOUT RELEASE - otherwise
vacuum boost is lost and brake pressure is reduced.. ANd on the Prius,
because it can run without the gasoline engine running, there is a
standby electric vacuum pump to give vacuum to the booster even with
no engine vacuum - so on a hybrid that pump would ALSO need to fail in
order to reduce the brake pressure.



Now I also remember you telling us how manufacturers are now making
cars with only two computers and some have only one. *You claimed some
cars have the ABS, climate control, and radio all run off of one
central computer. * I've showed you this is a crock, complete with
multiple links. *You've provided nada. * *However, let's go with your
claim that the engine computer and ABS are commonly co-mingled into
one computer. * So, now you have the computer that has malfunctioned
in control of both the throttle and to a significant extent, also the
brakes. *Note, I am not saying this is a high probability event or
that it explains what has happened in these runaway cars. * *But it's
impossible to rule out. * If you can do so, tell us exactly how it's
impossible for whatever computer is controlling the ABS to not cause a
loss of at least some braking capability during a malfunction.

I just explained how ABS works. Not impossible to lose SOME braking
capability - but not without turning on a warning light and leaving
evidence.

And you have such detailed knowledge of the design of the ABS
computer, that you know it can't be stuck in some loop, not responding
and also not setting the warning light? Somehow I doubt that.



I'd say it is EXTREMELY unlikely the ABS has been involved in ANY way,
in ANY of the reported ren-aways - Hybrid or otherwise. So small a
possibility as to be statistically irellevent or *virtually
impossible.


I'd say it's extremely unlikely too. But then the runaway action is
also only happening in a minuscule fraction of Toyota's millions of
cars. But I'm content to wait for NHTSA to conduct a complete
forensic investigation together with the car engineers, engineers from
companies that made the subsystems, etc. That's how you get to the
bottom of things.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)

On Aug 29, 11:41*am, Levee wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)


He's was talking about the rotors, not the pads.....

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)

The post is more than 2 yrs. old. The OP is certainly long gone.

Dave M.

On 08/29/2012 08:41 AM, Levee wrote:
On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)

It's a Prius, they use regenerative braking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake

Jon

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:41:07 -0500, Levee wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)
Not at all. The regen does better than 80% of the braking on a Prius,
so extremely long brake life is not out of the ordinary at all,
outside the rust belt.

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:07:43 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:41:07 -0500, Levee wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)
Not at all. The regen does better than 80% of the braking on a Prius,
so extremely long brake life is not out of the ordinary at all,
outside the rust belt.

Thanks, but that doesn't explain why the rear rotors needed to be
replaced, does it? Does regen only apply to the front wheels?

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 23:07:41 -0500, Levee wrote:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:07:43 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:41:07 -0500, Levee wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:01 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:11:41 -0700, terry wrote:

Doing the brake work ourselves a full set,
including new rotors can be done for around $200 or less.

Sure... I just did rear rotors on the Toyota (currently 170,000 miles on
it) and I think they were $30 each side, and a similar amount for pads.
The front ones are still the originals, with very little wear on them.

Hmmm, very little front brake wear at 170,000 miles [on the original
pads] might indicate a serious malfunction. I'd give those front
brakes a very close inspection to make sure they even work.

(Yes, I'm replying to an old post.)
Not at all. The regen does better than 80% of the braking on a Prius,
so extremely long brake life is not out of the ordinary at all,
outside the rust belt.

Thanks, but that doesn't explain why the rear rotors needed to be
replaced, does it? Does regen only apply to the front wheels?
It only works on the front brakes. Any rear braking still needs to
be performed by the friction brakes. Rear braking is something about
30% of the stopping power, more or less. With regen, the front
friction brakes can be responsible for less than 10%, depending on
driving style.