I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

On Feb 13, 9:54*pm, aemeijers wrote:
hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David

On Feb 13, 9:57*pm, hibb wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:54*pm, aemeijers wrote:





hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer..
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off..
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ive got a 1952 house with countless un doucumented improvments, ive
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

On Feb 13, 11:03*pm, auggie wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:57*pm, hibb wrote:



On Feb 13, 9:54*pm, aemeijers wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ive got a 1952 house with countless un doucumented improvments, ive
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.

On Feb 14, 2:26*am, hibb wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03*pm, auggie wrote:





On Feb 13, 9:57*pm, hibb wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54*pm, aemeijers wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:





On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Always turn off ALL the power before working on electrical wiring.

Why?

If you do not know why, then ESPECIALLY turn off ALL the power!



"hibb" wrote in message
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

On Feb 13, 11:53*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:





On Feb 14, 2:26 am, *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box..

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

it gets better i had a circut that ran only 2 outlets, and another
that ran my whole basment and 2 outlets on the 1st floor

On Feb 14, 12:53*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:





On Feb 14, 2:26 am, *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box..

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate



From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.

Nate Nagel wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:





On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

The safest thing when working on most any project, be it electrical,
plumbing, structural, etc. is to presume whoever worked on it last was a
moron, and to thoroughly test and analyze the current situation before
doing anything.

On Feb 14, 2:35*pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:53*am, Nate Nagel wrote:





On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

On Feb 14, 1:59*pm, "Bill" wrote:
Always turn off ALL the power before working on electrical wiring.

Why?

If you do not know why, then ESPECIALLY turn off ALL the power!



"hibb" wrote in message
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes fortunately both on the same 115 volt 'leg' (not phase although
they are commonly mis-called that). They are only 'phases' in a 3
phase installation; very uncommon in North American domestic
supplies!

Re switching off ALL power ................. may not be completely
practical for reasons of other lighting, furnace or other heating,
sump pumps, someon else working in the house etc. etc. But AGREE, be
very, very careful.

BTW Not partcularly keen on electrcians who just short out the
circuit; 'To see which CB trips'! Or those who put tips of two fingers
across the wiring 'To see if it's alive'!

On Feb 14, 1:25*pm, terry wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35*pm, wrote:



On Feb 14, 12:53*am, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

On Feb 14, 2:19*pm, hibb wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:25*pm, terry wrote:





On Feb 14, 2:35*pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53*am, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OK, now it's clear what's going on. And I agree, that is half-
assed and a code violation.

On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:



On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.


Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

I've used that technique. I've seen electricians
use the Jesus Method of locating breakers. I've
not tried that one, yet. Someday when I'm more
courageous.

Friend of mine has a miswire, when you turn on one
breaker, another one pops off. Aparently, two
circuits (on two different power legs) got tied
together.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"terry" wrote in
message
...

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only
test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can
hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off
breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A
friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same
circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers,
one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found
the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:38:39 -0600, Pete C. wrote:
The safest thing when working on most any project, be it electrical,
plumbing, structural, etc. is to presume whoever worked on it last was a
moron

I don't need to presume in our place ;-)

Jules wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:38:39 -0600, Pete C. wrote:
The safest thing when working on most any project, be it electrical,
plumbing, structural, etc. is to presume whoever worked on it last was a
moron

I don't need to presume in our place ;-)


Now, now, be charitable. Untrained smart people can screw stuff up
beyond recognition. Visiting my sister and Herr Doctor Professor BIL, I
often have to bite my tongue hard at some of the things he has committed
around the house. But he is mostly a good guy (socialist PC politics
aside), and better than her previous guys by far, so I play nice and
walk him through stuff real slow. And I have to give him credit, he
catches on quick, and he ain't afraid to jump right in to projects. He
also has a lot more willpower about completing things than I do. (Wonder
if not having internet or TV at home helps with that?) My sister is
definitely a world-class SWMBO, too.

--
aem sends...

On Feb 14, 3:00*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:





On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, *wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate *wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, * *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, * *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

*From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--


Interesting. Is there something in the code that actually says you
can't split a receptacle and put one half on one circuit and the other
on another? I agree it would be bad practice. But outlets are
often split so that one part is always live, the other goes to a
switch. Just wondering if the code actually covers that and says
they must be on the same breaker.

wrote:
On Feb 14, 3:00 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--


Interesting. Is there something in the code that actually says you
can't split a receptacle and put one half on one circuit and the other
on another? I agree it would be bad practice. But outlets are
often split so that one part is always live, the other goes to a
switch. Just wondering if the code actually covers that and says
they must be on the same breaker.

Hard to remember what is in this thread anymore.

If you are talking about 2 entirely separate circuits to one duplex
receptacle (both tabs would have to be broken off), as far as I know it
is compliant. (Probably not what nate had in mind above.) Since about 10
years ago there would have to be a "common disconnect" between the
breakers, which could be a handle tie.

Somewhat common is an "Edison circuit" (common neutral) that connects to
a split-wired receptacle. Same comment on handle tie, plus since the
2008 NEC "Edison circuits" have to have a "common disconnect".

--
bud--

Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/15/2010 08:50 PM, auggie wrote:
On Feb 14, 5:27 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 3:00 pm, Nate wrote:





On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:

On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose
of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three
electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them
and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of
wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that
it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires
expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The
old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the
outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and
wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation
off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see
what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard
in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the
room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the
outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one
for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I
can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through
and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device
should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt
pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the
power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot
previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before
risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented
improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running
through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated
in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as
recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the
circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can
tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found
'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing
that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a
time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a
mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same
phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new
work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--

Interesting. Is there something in the code that actually says you
can't split a receptacle and put one half on one circuit and the other
on another? I agree it would be bad practice. But outlets are
often split so that one part is always live, the other goes to a
switch. Just wondering if the code actually covers that and says
they must be on the same breaker.


in mn it was common practice to have the upper half and lower half of
outlets in kitchens on seprate circuits somthing to do with the draw
of old appliances

that could actually explain it, someone replacing a recep wired like
that without breaking the tabs, I didn't think of that.


Split wired receptacles would almost always be wired with an "Edison
circuit". If the tab isn't removed one or both circuit breakers would
trip. (Could be improperly wired to circuits on the same leg.)

--
bud--

Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:



On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of
remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three
electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and
adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires
and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it
had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting
to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old
wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the
outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered
if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off
so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what
else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in
the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the
room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the
outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for
the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can
find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and
replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device
should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket,
and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the
power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot
previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements,
I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended
but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same
phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.


Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

At an old job there were about 5 receptacles on the same circuit/s that
were on 2 breakers. Scary to think who did what and WHY?

On Feb 15, 1:33*pm, Tony wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, *wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate *wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, * *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, * *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of
remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three
electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and
adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires
and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it
had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting
to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old
wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the
outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered
if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off
so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what
else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in
the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the
room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the
outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for
the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can
find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and
replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device
should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket,
and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the
power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot
previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements,
I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended
but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same
phase!

nate

*From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

At an old job there were about 5 receptacles on the same circuit/s that
were on 2 breakers. *Scary to think who did what and WHY?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes; on two separate single pole breakers!
Maybe it was a mishearted attempt to get the advantages of Edison
wired outlets without the third wire????
i.e. some sort of 'heavy loads'!

terry wrote:
On Feb 15, 1:33 pm, Tony wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate wrote:
On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:
On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:
hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of
remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three
electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and
adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires
and a
very old set of wires attached to it.
I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it
had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting
to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old
wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the
outlet box.
So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered
if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off
so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.
So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what
else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in
the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the
room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the
outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for
the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can
find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and
replace it
with new wire.
Wish me luck, I need it.
David
Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device
should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket,
and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the
power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot
previous owner
did 20 years ago.
--
aem sends...
Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.
David- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements,
I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester
Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended
but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!
yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same
phase!
nate
From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:
an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live
It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -
True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.
Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.
Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.
At an old job there were about 5 receptacles on the same circuit/s that
were on 2 breakers. Scary to think who did what and WHY?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes; on two separate single pole breakers!
Maybe it was a mishearted attempt to get the advantages of Edison
wired outlets without the third wire????
i.e. some sort of 'heavy loads'!

Ran out of 30 amp breakers and 15 amp were on sale?

On Feb 14, 5:27*pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 3:00*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:





On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:

On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, *wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate *wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, * *wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, * *wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, * *wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. *It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each *single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! *that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. *At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

*From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. * * All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. * But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--

Interesting. * Is there something in the code that actually says you
can't split a receptacle and put one half on one circuit and the other
on another? * I agree it would be bad practice. * But outlets are
often split so that one part is always live, the other goes to a
switch. * Just wondering if the code actually covers that and says
they must be on the same breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

in mn it was common practice to have the upper half and lower half of
outlets in kitchens on seprate circuits somthing to do with the draw
of old appliances

On 02/15/2010 08:50 PM, auggie wrote:
On Feb 14, 5:27 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 3:00 pm, Nate wrote:





On 2/14/2010 2:19 PM, hibb wrote:

On Feb 14, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On Feb 14, 2:35 pm, wrote:

On Feb 14, 12:53 am, Nate wrote:

On 2/14/2010 12:38 AM, terry wrote:

On Feb 14, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:03 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:57 pm, wrote:

On Feb 13, 9:54 pm, wrote:

hibb wrote:
I have gutted out a small room upstairs with the purpose of remodeling
it for a home recording studio. The room already had three electric
outlets so tonight I was in the process of replacing them and adding a
couple more. One of the outlet boxes had a newer set of wires and a
very old set of wires attached to it.

I puled the outlet out of it's box and was surprised that it had only
one set of wires hooked to it. I removed the wires expecting to find
that the two wires had been spiced together but no. The old wire was
just a dead end. Just cut off and still attached to the outlet box.

So I sat there and thought about it for a second and wondered if the
old wire was still hot. So I trimmed a bit of insulation off so I
could get the tester on it and sure enough it was.

So tomorrow I get to start switching breakers off to see what else
that wire is hooked to. it disappears behind the wallboard in the next
room that I have junked up with stuff I emptied out of the room I am
working on. It would be nice to have two circuits for the outlets in
that room. One for the computer and other stuff and one for the mixer.
The old wire is just two wires with no ground wire. If I can find out
where it's next junction is maybe I can pull it through and replace it
with new wire.

Wish me luck, I need it.

David

Good example of why anyone who opens up any wiring device should have
one of those pen-style power detectors in their shirt pocket, and get in
the habit of using it every time, even when you 'know' the power is off.
In fussing with old work, you never know what some idiot previous owner
did 20 years ago.

--
aem sends...

Yep, I tend to test thing in every way possible before risking my
hide.

David- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've got a 1952 house with countless undocumented improvements, I've
found junction box's with 4 breakers worth of wires running through
it. always use your pen tester

Our house turns 100 this year. A great deal had been updated in the
30+ years we have lived here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Another idea, if working alone, is to not only test as recommended but
also plug in a radio tuned to something you can hear from the circuit
breaker panel location. Then, flipping off breakers one can tell if
you have found the one to deaden that circuit. A friend found 'two'
circuit breakers were in contact with the same circuit by doing that!
Flipping off and then each single pole breakers, one at a time, the
circuit remained energized. But he finally found the two that did!
That saved a few trips up and down stairs!

yikes! that takes a special sort of electrician to create a mess like
that. At least whoever did that picked two circuits on the same phase!

nate

From the description, which isn't totally clear, I don't see any
"mess" or a violation of any code or anything surprising. All he
says is he has:

an outlet in a box
that box has both new wires and and old wires going into it
the old wires are all that is connected to the outlet
the old wires are live

It's not the way one would normally wire something for new work. But
if it's old work, I don't believe it violates any code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True; somebody perhaps back in time extended an existing (old wiring
circuit) using newer wiring.

Nope. What it looks like is somebody replaced the outlet, ran new
wires from another circuit for power and cut off the old wire and just
left attached to the box but not hooked to the outlet. It would have
been nice if they had at least tapped up the end of the wire but all
the did was cut it off.

Someone a few posts back said that they had a recep that wouldn't go
dead unless two different CB's were cut off, that's a definite code
violation no matter how you look at it.

nate

--

Interesting. Is there something in the code that actually says you
can't split a receptacle and put one half on one circuit and the other
on another? I agree it would be bad practice. But outlets are
often split so that one part is always live, the other goes to a
switch. Just wondering if the code actually covers that and says
they must be on the same breaker.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

in mn it was common practice to have the upper half and lower half of
outlets in kitchens on seprate circuits somthing to do with the draw
of old appliances

that could actually explain it, someone replacing a recep wired like
that without breaking the tabs, I didn't think of that.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:25:42 -0500, aemeijers wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:38:39 -0600, Pete C. wrote:
The safest thing when working on most any project, be it electrical,
plumbing, structural, etc. is to presume whoever worked on it last was a
moron

I don't need to presume in our place ;-)


Now, now, be charitable. Untrained smart people can screw stuff up
beyond recognition.

Yeah... we just have some "interesting" wiring, that's all - and the
fusebox above the bath/shower in one bathroom with a thin wooden cover
over it held on by one screw was just beautiful :-) (We weren't using that
bathroom, but didn't even know there was a fuse box there until the cover
fell off with a loud crash one day)

cheers

Jules

On Feb 15, 10:50*pm, auggie wrote:

Hard to remember what is in this thread anymore.

Yup: Lot's of info and experiences though.

And personally hope am never too old to be corrected, or learn
something.

When I went to put GFCIs in my kitchen I discovered that one double
outlet had each half on a different circuit. I used the radio
technique, then even plugged in my circuit tester to confirm the power
was off (under the unlikely chance that the radio broke when I flipped
the breaker)... and still sparks flew! Now I know to test every
single outlet even if they're both in the same box.

On Feb 16, 11:00*am, terry wrote:
On Feb 15, 10:50*pm, auggie wrote:

Hard to remember what is in this thread anymore.

Yup: Lot's of info and experiences though.

And personally hope am never too old to be corrected, or learn
something.

"Lot's of info and experiences though"

A neighbor asked me to replace the light fixture outside his front
door.

"Is the power off?" I asked.

"Yes" came the reply.

I replaced the fixture and ask him to turn the power back on. Instead
of going down into the basement, he walked towards me and flipped the
switch that was right inside the front door.

I guess his idea of "power off" was a bit more lenient than mine.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
A neighbor asked me to replace the light fixture outside his front
door.

"Is the power off?" I asked.

"Yes" came the reply.

I replaced the fixture and ask him to turn the power back on. Instead
of going down into the basement, he walked towards me and flipped the
switch that was right inside the front door.

I guess his idea of "power off" was a bit more lenient than mine.

All I would have done was to cut off the same switch. It goes to the same
wire , just closer to the light. Just make sure no one else is around to
turn on the switch.

As an electrician in a plant, I often just turn off the switch of the room I
am in changing ballasts in a room. I do have a locking device I use to keep
anyone from just walking in and flipping the switch.
Most are not the normal 120 volt units, but they run on 277 volts. As there
are usually 3 circuits on the same neutral you have to be careful not to cut
into the neutral. To make things really safe you have to cut off 3 breakers
and make sure you get the correct 3.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
A neighbor asked me to replace the light fixture outside his front
door.

"Is the power off?" I asked.

"Yes" came the reply.

I replaced the fixture and ask him to turn the power back on. Instead
of going down into the basement, he walked towards me and flipped the
switch that was right inside the front door.

I guess his idea of "power off" was a bit more lenient than mine.

All I would have done was to cut off the same switch. It goes to the same
wire , just closer to the light. Just make sure no one else is around to
turn on the switch.

As an electrician in a plant, I often just turn off the switch of the room I
am in changing ballasts in a room. I do have a locking device I use to keep
anyone from just walking in and flipping the switch.
Most are not the normal 120 volt units, but they run on 277 volts. As there
are usually 3 circuits on the same neutral you have to be careful not to cut
into the neutral. To make things really safe you have to cut off 3 breakers
and make sure you get the correct 3.


In a residential setting, I'd never trust the switch without testing
with a current detector. Some idiot could have the switch leg on the
neutral side up in the ceiling box. When I replaced the 2-hole outlets
here with 3-hole (grounded boxes), half of the outlets were wired
backwards.

--
aem sends...

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
In a residential setting, I'd never trust the switch without testing with
a current detector. Some idiot could have the switch leg on the neutral
side up in the ceiling box. When I replaced the 2-hole outlets here with
3-hole (grounded boxes), half of the outlets were wired backwards.

I never trust a switch without testing the wires I put my hands on. If I
can make a direct connection to the wires, I like a voltmeter or maybe a
circuit tester I have made by Fluke. If I can not make a direct wire
connection I use one of the 'hot sticks' that glow when near wires with
power.
Even If I see someone test the wiring, I do it myself before touching
anything.

If you think residential wiring can be bad, you should see some comercial
plants that have anywhere from the 120 volt up to 13,200 volt stuff. Most
of that wiring is not even inspected like a house would be.