I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes 24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And, they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per 5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and can be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.

Jay-T wrote:

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it
dries and can be re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix
setting type product doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a
plus for me. I don't mind doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a
contractor using the dry-mix product so I wonder if there are
disadvantages or reasons why using the dry-mix is not generally
recommended for most taping jobs.

Pre-mixed is powdered calcium carbonate (limestone) mixed with water and a
binder - usually starch - and shrinks because the water evaporates thereby
reducing the volume. Setting compound is processed gypsum and becomes hard
through a chemical reaction of the processed gypsum and water. Same as
cement.

One advantage of the pre-mixed for us duffers is that it can be removed
easily with water if we screw up. It can also be "wet sanded" with a
sponge. Once set up, setting compound is water proof. Soft, but water
proof.
____________

By "plaster", I mean the actual finish coat plaster that
old time plasters use for plastering entire walls. I think the
plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat plaster" and
not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish
coat plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a
very hard finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there
somewhere that is called finish coat plaster, and that is not the
same as Plaster of Paris?

There are three (at least) materials that can be used to make
plaster...gypsum, lime and cement (burnt limestone + other minor materials).
Cement is the hardest, gypsum the softest.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes
24 hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And,
they both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't
tell how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and
pre-mixed) compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such
as per 5 gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries
and can be re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type
product doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I
don't mind doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the
dry-mix product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why
using the dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product
that goes on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean
the actual finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering
entire walls. I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or
"finish coat plaster" and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure.
And, the finish coat plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and
dried to a very hard finish. Am I correct that there is a product out
there somewhere that is called finish coat plaster, and that is not the
same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.


*I saw a contractor use the fast setting mix stuff on one small job. He
kept mixing it in small batches because it would dry so quickly in his
trough. He was using it so that he could finish that day and have the
painter come in the next.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes
24 hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And,
they both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't
tell how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and
pre-mixed) compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such
as per 5 gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries
and can be re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type
product doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I
don't mind doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the
dry-mix product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why
using the dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product
that goes on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean
the actual finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering
entire walls. I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or
"finish coat plaster" and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure.
And, the finish coat plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and
dried to a very hard finish. Am I correct that there is a product out
there somewhere that is called finish coat plaster, and that is not the
same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.



I am going to publish an article about the different types sometime tonight
he http://househomerepair.com/3/Drywall-1.html

The setting types are significantly more expensive. They are available in
sanding type and non-sanding type.

I never really measured; I may do that, but I suspect it is some where
around 2-3 bags to make a 5 gallon bucket.

Filling thicker voids with a non-sanding setting mud and letting it dry
before bedding your tape is always a good choice.

Finishing plaster is still available but not at the BORG. I use a combo of
non-sanding and sanding mud for my plaster repairs and with no experience I
suggest you do the same..

Colbyt

Colbyt wrote:
(snip)
The setting types are significantly more expensive. They are available in
sanding type and non-sanding type.

I never really measured; I may do that, but I suspect it is some where
around 2-3 bags to make a 5 gallon bucket.

A bag of durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud.

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, "Jay-T"
wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes 24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And, they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per 5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and can be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.



Drywall compound is fairly inexpensive, so it really doesn't matter
much. I like to mix my own and use the 90 stuff. Drywall compound is
very different than Plaster of Paris.

"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...


I am going to publish an article about the different types sometime
tonight he http://househomerepair.com/3/Drywall-1.html

The setting types are significantly more expensive. They are available in
sanding type and non-sanding type.

I never really measured; I may do that, but I suspect it is some where
around 2-3 bags to make a 5 gallon bucket.

Filling thicker voids with a non-sanding setting mud and letting it dry
before bedding your tape is always a good choice.

Finishing plaster is still available but not at the BORG. I use a combo
of non-sanding and sanding mud for my plaster repairs and with no
experience I suggest you do the same..

Colbyt

Thanks. I just read the article that you posted.

One thing that I have been finding is that there is *not* "a bewildering
display of products from which to choose" when I venture out to the store to
purchase drywall compound. I have been finding the opposite. For example,
at Lowes and Home Depot, I don't see any Durabond products. All I see is
the pre-mixed buckets of joint compound (regular and lightweight), and
Sheetrock Brand Easy Sand Lightweight dry setting type joint compound. In
fact, I just assumed that Durabond must have changed its name to Sheetrock
Brand Easy Sand setting type lightweight joint compound.

I'll have to check out some of the contractor building supply houses in my
area to see if they have more options.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...


I am going to publish an article about the different types sometime
tonight he http://househomerepair.com/3/Drywall-1.html

The setting types are significantly more expensive. They are available
in sanding type and non-sanding type.

I never really measured; I may do that, but I suspect it is some where
around 2-3 bags to make a 5 gallon bucket.

Filling thicker voids with a non-sanding setting mud and letting it dry
before bedding your tape is always a good choice.

Finishing plaster is still available but not at the BORG. I use a combo
of non-sanding and sanding mud for my plaster repairs and with no
experience I suggest you do the same..

Colbyt

Thanks. I just read the article that you posted.

One thing that I have been finding is that there is *not* "a bewildering
display of products from which to choose" when I venture out to the store
to purchase drywall compound. I have been finding the opposite. For
example, at Lowes and Home Depot, I don't see any Durabond products. All
I see is the pre-mixed buckets of joint compound (regular and
lightweight), and Sheetrock Brand Easy Sand Lightweight dry setting type
joint compound. In fact, I just assumed that Durabond must have changed
its name to Sheetrock Brand Easy Sand setting type lightweight joint
compound.

I'll have to check out some of the contractor building supply houses in my
area to see if they have more options.




Unless things have changed in the last 6 months my local Lowes (40509)
carries 2 Durabonds (20 & 45) and 2 Easy Sands (20 & 45). They also have the
Sheetrock brand of ready-mix in 5 gallons and the box which I have never
liked, along with another brand, GoldBond (?). For general purpose taping
and bedding both seem to work fine. I truly believe the Sheetrock brand is
a little better when thinned to make a topping compound.

I use the DB-20 very seldom; mostly for the "scratch" coat on a ceiling
repair where I am holding it in place until it sets or the occasional hole
in the wall from a failed doorstop.

Your plaster if you are still inclined to try that may be harder to find.
Locally as far as I know, it is only sold at a masonry supply yard.

If drywall is a learned skill, a smooth finish on real plaster is a high art
form. One I will never master.

Did you see Mike's post? He said a bag of powdered mix: "A bag of
durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud". They all weight the same so if
he is correct, which I think he is, 2 bags = one 5 gallon bucket. Last time
I checked that would be about twice the cost. Well worth it for a small or
time sensitive job. Not so good for a large project where time is not
essential.

Colbyt

Colbyt wrote:
(snip)
Did you see Mike's post? He said a bag of powdered mix: "A bag of
durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud". They all weight the same so if
he is correct, which I think he is, 2 bags = one 5 gallon bucket.

I think you meant to say that the bags are the same volume rather than
the same weight. Easy Sand is the light weight version of Durabond. It
comes in the same sized bag and you end up with the same volume after
mixing, but the Easy Sand is considerably lighter. (18lbs vs Durabond's 25)

Note that a "5 gallon" bucket of Plus3 mud contains 4.5 gallons.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes
24 hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And,
they both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't
tell how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and
pre-mixed) compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such
as per 5 gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries
and can be re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type
product doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I
don't mind doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the
dry-mix product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why
using the dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product
that goes on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean
the actual finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering
entire walls. I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or
"finish coat plaster" and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure.
And, the finish coat plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and
dried to a very hard finish. Am I correct that there is a product out
there somewhere that is called finish coat plaster, and that is not the
same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.


There are 2 types of setting type compounds...Durabond Setting type Compound
and Easysand setting Type Compound.They both make about 3/4 of a pail
depending on the thickness of the mix..Lets take Durabond first...

...Durabond 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is very hard , has excellent bond ,mold
resistant , is crack resistant and unforgiving and that is why you don't see
it much in HD or Lowes as it isn't really for the DIYer..A mistake with that
means removing the sheets and starting over or hours with a belt sander with
80 grit...It can even be used to patch concrete above grade and as a floor
leveler..I use it for the first coat on everything..Embedding tape , first
coat on cornerbead , coating screws ect. BUT you must know what you're
doing..I like it because it eliminates call backs for cracks and it is ready
for second coating after it sets even in deep fills and there is NO
shrinkage at all..It also makes an EXCELLENT base coat for repairing and
skimcoating old plaster walls but again you must know what your doing and
get it pretty good before it sets.There is no close enough with Durabond..

Easysand 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is alot more forgiving and sands pretty easy
and is used typically for the 2nd and 3rd coat on small jobs or in damp
areas like garages , bathrooms and basements where drying time is more than
the rest of the house...It can also be used for the first coat if Durabond
is not used...It is also mold resistant which is a plus in those areas as
well..It is also required for use with the fiberglass faced mold resistant
sheetrock as a system to prevent mold..Durabond can be used for the first
coat in this system as well..It is also very good for skimcoating old
plaster walls...

There are 4 types of plaster that you can get but again plastering isn't
really a DIYer thing so you don't see it much in HD or Lowes..Basecoat
Plaster , Finish Coat Plaster and the Skim coat or single coat plaster are
the typical ones you see and are applied on plaster board (sometimes called
blue board) or metal lathe..Gypsolite Plaster is a lighter version of
basecoat and is used over metal lathe in areas where weight is a
factor..Typically a curved ceiling or similar..You can still get the old
Redtop Gypsum plaster that has to be mixed with sand as well and is applied
over metal lathe and rock lathe and is mostly used in historic renovations
and some commercial jobs..It is typically mixed in a cement mixer and is
applied in 2 coats..A scratch coat in which you cover the lathe and scratch
it with a rake before it sets and another coat is applied over that..Redtop
Gauging plaster is used as the finish coat and is mixed on the table with
premixed Lime..There are a few other very specialty plasters as well...Check
out the USG website for more info...HTH...

benick wrote:

There are 2 types of setting type compounds...Durabond Setting type
Compound and Easysand setting Type Compound.They both make about 3/4
of a pail depending on the thickness of the mix..Lets take Durabond
first...
..Durabond 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is very hard , has excellent bond
,mold resistant , is crack resistant and unforgiving and that is why
you don't see it much in HD or Lowes as it isn't really for the
DIYer..A mistake with that means removing the sheets and starting
over or hours with a belt sander with 80 grit...It can even be used
to patch concrete above grade and as a floor leveler..I use it for
the first coat on everything..Embedding tape , first coat on
cornerbead , coating screws ect. BUT you must know what you're
doing..I like it because it eliminates call backs for cracks and it
is ready for second coating after it sets even in deep fills and
there is NO shrinkage at all..It also makes an EXCELLENT base coat
for repairing and skimcoating old plaster walls but again you must
know what your doing and get it pretty good before it sets.There is
no close enough with Durabond..
Easysand 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is alot more forgiving and sands
pretty easy and is used typically for the 2nd and 3rd coat on small
jobs or in damp areas like garages , bathrooms and basements where
drying time is more than the rest of the house...It can also be used
for the first coat if Durabond is not used...It is also mold
resistant which is a plus in those areas as well..It is also required
for use with the fiberglass faced mold resistant sheetrock as a
system to prevent mold..Durabond can be used for the first coat in
this system as well..It is also very good for skimcoating old plaster
walls...
There are 4 types of plaster that you can get but again plastering
isn't really a DIYer thing so you don't see it much in HD or
Lowes..Basecoat Plaster , Finish Coat Plaster and the Skim coat or
single coat plaster are the typical ones you see and are applied on
plaster board (sometimes called blue board) or metal lathe..Gypsolite
Plaster is a lighter version of basecoat and is used over metal lathe
in areas where weight is a factor..Typically a curved ceiling or
similar..You can still get the old Redtop Gypsum plaster that has to
be mixed with sand as well and is applied over metal lathe and rock
lathe and is mostly used in historic renovations and some commercial
jobs..It is typically mixed in a cement mixer and is applied in 2
coats..A scratch coat in which you cover the lathe and scratch it
with a rake before it sets and another coat is applied over
that..Redtop Gauging plaster is used as the finish coat and is mixed
on the table with premixed Lime..There are a few other very specialty
plasters as well...Check out the USG website for more info...HTH..

Thanks. That helps a lot!

I guess it wasn't my imagination that the products that I remember seeing on
the shelves at placess like Home Depot (and maybe Lowes) really did exist.
I even remember seeing wood lath strips and both the rough coat and finish
coat plaster at a Home Depot near me, but that was a number of years ago.
I'll have to do some better checking to see where else I can find the
various products you mentioned in my area.

I do remember using Durabond for patching holes and I remember it setting
fairly quickly and drying rock hard. I also think it was a smoother mixture
and easier to apply -- i.e. less "sticky" -- than the Easysand stuff.

Colbyt wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message

I'll have to check out some of the contractor building supply houses
in my area to see if they have more options.

Unless things have changed in the last 6 months my local Lowes (40509)
carries 2 Durabonds (20 & 45) and 2 Easy Sands (20 & 45). They also
have the Sheetrock brand of ready-mix in 5 gallons and the box which
I have never liked, along with another brand, GoldBond (?).

I think things may have changed in the last 6 months. I don't see any
Durabond products at my local HD or Lowes, and searches of both of their
websites for "Durabond" don't come up with the product. I even tried
switching "My Store" on both websites to Zipcode 40509 and that didn't help.

Did you see Mike's post? He said a bag of powdered mix: "A bag of
durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud". They all weight the same
so if he is correct, which I think he is, 2 bags = one 5 gallon
bucket. Last time I checked that would be about twice the cost. Well
worth it for a small or time sensitive job. Not so good for a
large project where time is not essential.

I did see that, thanks. At least it gives me an idea that 2 bags of the dry
mix will make about 4.5 to 5 gallons of mix, so I can compare prices that
way. I agree that price is not everything, especially if one or the other
can save time. I was just curious how the two types, dry and pre-mixed,
would compare in overall price.

Mike Paulsen wrote:
Colbyt wrote:
(snip)
The setting types are significantly more expensive. They are
available in sanding type and non-sanding type.

I never really measured; I may do that, but I suspect it is some
where around 2-3 bags to make a 5 gallon bucket.

A bag of durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud.

Thanks.

"Jay-T" wrote in message
...
benick wrote:

There are 2 types of setting type compounds...Durabond Setting type
Compound and Easysand setting Type Compound.They both make about 3/4
of a pail depending on the thickness of the mix..Lets take Durabond
first...
..Durabond 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is very hard , has excellent bond
,mold resistant , is crack resistant and unforgiving and that is why
you don't see it much in HD or Lowes as it isn't really for the
DIYer..A mistake with that means removing the sheets and starting
over or hours with a belt sander with 80 grit...It can even be used
to patch concrete above grade and as a floor leveler..I use it for
the first coat on everything..Embedding tape , first coat on
cornerbead , coating screws ect. BUT you must know what you're
doing..I like it because it eliminates call backs for cracks and it
is ready for second coating after it sets even in deep fills and
there is NO shrinkage at all..It also makes an EXCELLENT base coat
for repairing and skimcoating old plaster walls but again you must
know what your doing and get it pretty good before it sets.There is
no close enough with Durabond..
Easysand 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is alot more forgiving and sands
pretty easy and is used typically for the 2nd and 3rd coat on small
jobs or in damp areas like garages , bathrooms and basements where
drying time is more than the rest of the house...It can also be used
for the first coat if Durabond is not used...It is also mold
resistant which is a plus in those areas as well..It is also required
for use with the fiberglass faced mold resistant sheetrock as a
system to prevent mold..Durabond can be used for the first coat in
this system as well..It is also very good for skimcoating old plaster
walls...
There are 4 types of plaster that you can get but again plastering
isn't really a DIYer thing so you don't see it much in HD or
Lowes..Basecoat Plaster , Finish Coat Plaster and the Skim coat or
single coat plaster are the typical ones you see and are applied on
plaster board (sometimes called blue board) or metal lathe..Gypsolite
Plaster is a lighter version of basecoat and is used over metal lathe
in areas where weight is a factor..Typically a curved ceiling or
similar..You can still get the old Redtop Gypsum plaster that has to
be mixed with sand as well and is applied over metal lathe and rock
lathe and is mostly used in historic renovations and some commercial
jobs..It is typically mixed in a cement mixer and is applied in 2
coats..A scratch coat in which you cover the lathe and scratch it
with a rake before it sets and another coat is applied over
that..Redtop Gauging plaster is used as the finish coat and is mixed
on the table with premixed Lime..There are a few other very specialty
plasters as well...Check out the USG website for more info...HTH..

Thanks. That helps a lot!

I guess it wasn't my imagination that the products that I remember seeing
on the shelves at placess like Home Depot (and maybe Lowes) really did
exist. I even remember seeing wood lath strips and both the rough coat and
finish coat plaster at a Home Depot near me, but that was a number of
years ago. I'll have to do some better checking to see where else I can
find the various products you mentioned in my area.

I do remember using Durabond for patching holes and I remember it setting
fairly quickly and drying rock hard. I also think it was a smoother
mixture and easier to apply -- i.e. less "sticky" -- than the Easysand
stuff.



Wood lathe is no longer used...Metal lath is a 3X8 sheet of metal mesh and
rock lath is a 2X8 gypsum product that is VERY hard and has fiberglass in
it...HTH..A little trick I do is mix a little regular joint compound with
the Durabond and Easysand to fill the bucket... The manufacturer says not to
do it but I've done it for years on hundreds of jobs with no ill effects...

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
...
Colbyt wrote:
(snip)
Did you see Mike's post? He said a bag of powdered mix: "A bag of
durabond will make 2.5 - 3 gallons of mud". They all weight the same so
if he is correct, which I think he is, 2 bags = one 5 gallon bucket.

I think you meant to say that the bags are the same volume rather than the
same weight. Easy Sand is the light weight version of Durabond. It comes
in the same sized bag and you end up with the same volume after mixing,
but the Easy Sand is considerably lighter. (18lbs vs Durabond's 25)

Note that a "5 gallon" bucket of Plus3 mud contains 4.5 gallons.


Mike 3 points Colbyt 0

Yes. That is what I meant.

Colbyt

On Feb 12, 2:05*pm, "benick" wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message

...





benick wrote:

There are 2 types of setting type compounds...Durabond Setting type
Compound and Easysand setting Type Compound.They both make about 3/4
of a pail depending on the thickness of the mix..Lets take Durabond
first...
..Durabond 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is very hard , has excellent bond
,mold resistant , is crack resistant and unforgiving and that is why
you don't see it much in HD or Lowes as it isn't really for the
DIYer..A mistake with that means removing the sheets and starting
over or hours with a belt sander with 80 grit...It can even be used
to patch concrete above grade and as a floor leveler..I use it for
the first coat on everything..Embedding tape , first coat on
cornerbead , coating screws ect. BUT you must know what you're
doing..I like it because it eliminates call backs for cracks and it
is ready for second coating after it sets even in deep fills and
there is NO shrinkage at all..It also makes an EXCELLENT base coat
for repairing and skimcoating old plaster walls but again you must
know what your doing and get it pretty good before it sets.There is
no close enough with Durabond..
Easysand 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is alot more forgiving and sands
pretty easy and is used typically for the 2nd and 3rd coat on small
jobs or in damp areas like garages , bathrooms and basements where
drying time is more than the rest of the house...It can also be used
for the first coat if Durabond is not used...It is also mold
resistant which is a plus in those areas as well..It is also required
for use with the fiberglass faced mold resistant sheetrock as a
system to prevent mold..Durabond can be used for the first coat in
this system as well..It is also very good for skimcoating old plaster
walls...
There are 4 types of plaster that you can get but again plastering
isn't really a DIYer thing so you don't see it much in HD or
Lowes..Basecoat Plaster , Finish Coat Plaster and the Skim coat or
single coat plaster are the typical ones you see and are applied on
plaster board (sometimes called blue board) or metal lathe..Gypsolite
Plaster is a lighter version of basecoat and is used over metal lathe
in areas where weight is a factor..Typically a curved ceiling or
similar..You can still get the old Redtop Gypsum plaster that has to
be mixed with sand as well and is applied over metal lathe and rock
lathe and is mostly used in historic renovations and some commercial
jobs..It is typically mixed in a cement mixer and is applied in 2
coats..A scratch coat in which you cover the lathe and scratch it
with a rake before it sets and another coat is applied over
that..Redtop Gauging plaster is used as the finish coat and is mixed
on the table with premixed Lime..There are a few other very specialty
plasters as well...Check out the USG website for more info...HTH..

Thanks. *That helps a lot!

I guess it wasn't my imagination that the products that I remember seeing
on the shelves at placess like Home Depot (and maybe Lowes) really did
exist. I even remember seeing wood lath strips and both the rough coat and
finish coat plaster at a Home Depot near me, but that was a number of
years ago. I'll have to do some better checking to see where else I can
find the various products you mentioned in my area.

I do remember using Durabond for patching holes and I remember it setting
fairly quickly and drying rock hard. *I also think it was a smoother
mixture and easier to apply -- i.e. less "sticky" -- than the Easysand
stuff.

Wood lathe is no longer used...Metal lath is a 3X8 sheet of metal mesh and
rock lath is a 2X8 gypsum product that is VERY hard and has fiberglass in
it...HTH..A little trick I do is mix a little regular joint compound with
the Durabond and Easysand to fill the bucket... The manufacturer says not to
do it but I've done it for years on hundreds of jobs with no ill effects....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just a observation, The last time I looked for mud at Lowes, the
premix wsa near all the drywall aisle, but the dry mix was stacked
over near the cement and sand pallets.

Robin

"rlz" wrote in message
...
On Feb 12, 2:05 pm, "benick" wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message

...





benick wrote:

There are 2 types of setting type compounds...Durabond Setting type
Compound and Easysand setting Type Compound.They both make about 3/4
of a pail depending on the thickness of the mix..Lets take Durabond
first...
..Durabond 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is very hard , has excellent bond
,mold resistant , is crack resistant and unforgiving and that is why
you don't see it much in HD or Lowes as it isn't really for the
DIYer..A mistake with that means removing the sheets and starting
over or hours with a belt sander with 80 grit...It can even be used
to patch concrete above grade and as a floor leveler..I use it for
the first coat on everything..Embedding tape , first coat on
cornerbead , coating screws ect. BUT you must know what you're
doing..I like it because it eliminates call backs for cracks and it
is ready for second coating after it sets even in deep fills and
there is NO shrinkage at all..It also makes an EXCELLENT base coat
for repairing and skimcoating old plaster walls but again you must
know what your doing and get it pretty good before it sets.There is
no close enough with Durabond..
Easysand 5 , 20 , 45 , 90 , 210 is alot more forgiving and sands
pretty easy and is used typically for the 2nd and 3rd coat on small
jobs or in damp areas like garages , bathrooms and basements where
drying time is more than the rest of the house...It can also be used
for the first coat if Durabond is not used...It is also mold
resistant which is a plus in those areas as well..It is also required
for use with the fiberglass faced mold resistant sheetrock as a
system to prevent mold..Durabond can be used for the first coat in
this system as well..It is also very good for skimcoating old plaster
walls...
There are 4 types of plaster that you can get but again plastering
isn't really a DIYer thing so you don't see it much in HD or
Lowes..Basecoat Plaster , Finish Coat Plaster and the Skim coat or
single coat plaster are the typical ones you see and are applied on
plaster board (sometimes called blue board) or metal lathe..Gypsolite
Plaster is a lighter version of basecoat and is used over metal lathe
in areas where weight is a factor..Typically a curved ceiling or
similar..You can still get the old Redtop Gypsum plaster that has to
be mixed with sand as well and is applied over metal lathe and rock
lathe and is mostly used in historic renovations and some commercial
jobs..It is typically mixed in a cement mixer and is applied in 2
coats..A scratch coat in which you cover the lathe and scratch it
with a rake before it sets and another coat is applied over
that..Redtop Gauging plaster is used as the finish coat and is mixed
on the table with premixed Lime..There are a few other very specialty
plasters as well...Check out the USG website for more info...HTH..

Thanks. That helps a lot!

I guess it wasn't my imagination that the products that I remember
seeing
on the shelves at placess like Home Depot (and maybe Lowes) really did
exist. I even remember seeing wood lath strips and both the rough coat
and
finish coat plaster at a Home Depot near me, but that was a number of
years ago. I'll have to do some better checking to see where else I can
find the various products you mentioned in my area.

I do remember using Durabond for patching holes and I remember it
setting
fairly quickly and drying rock hard. I also think it was a smoother
mixture and easier to apply -- i.e. less "sticky" -- than the Easysand
stuff.

Wood lathe is no longer used...Metal lath is a 3X8 sheet of metal mesh and
rock lath is a 2X8 gypsum product that is VERY hard and has fiberglass in
it...HTH..A little trick I do is mix a little regular joint compound with
the Durabond and Easysand to fill the bucket... The manufacturer says not
to
do it but I've done it for years on hundreds of jobs with no ill
effects...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just a observation, The last time I looked for mud at Lowes, the
premix wsa near all the drywall aisle, but the dry mix was stacked
over near the cement and sand pallets.

Robin



Weird Robin..Both Lowes and Home depot have both side by side here...Mention
it to them...LOL...

Jay-T wrote:
Colbyt wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message
I'll have to check out some of the contractor building supply houses
in my area to see if they have more options.

Unless things have changed in the last 6 months my local Lowes (40509)
carries 2 Durabonds (20 & 45) and 2 Easy Sands (20 & 45). They also
have the Sheetrock brand of ready-mix in 5 gallons and the box which
I have never liked, along with another brand, GoldBond (?).

I think things may have changed in the last 6 months. I don't see any
Durabond products at my local HD or Lowes, and searches of both of their
websites for "Durabond" don't come up with the product. I even tried
switching "My Store" on both websites to Zipcode 40509 and that didn't help.


Your store may not carry the sheetrock product line. Try Beadex or Lafarge.

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
news
Jay-T wrote:
Colbyt wrote:
"Jay-T" wrote in message
I'll have to check out some of the contractor building supply houses
in my area to see if they have more options.

Unless things have changed in the last 6 months my local Lowes (40509)
carries 2 Durabonds (20 & 45) and 2 Easy Sands (20 & 45). They also
have the Sheetrock brand of ready-mix in 5 gallons and the box which
I have never liked, along with another brand, GoldBond (?).

I think things may have changed in the last 6 months. I don't see any
Durabond products at my local HD or Lowes, and searches of both of their
websites for "Durabond" don't come up with the product. I even tried
switching "My Store" on both websites to Zipcode 40509 and that didn't
help.


Your store may not carry the sheetrock product line. Try Beadex or
Lafarge.



I was at both Lowes and Home Depot today and they both had Durabond and
Easysand...You may have to go to the store...Their websites don't have
everything that's in their store...HTH...

On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, Jay-T wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes 24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And, they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per 5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and can be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.

First off, if you put a fan on any of the types it will dry much faster. I
have used mixes of both. My preferred method is to use the bucket mud for
taping because it takes so long to do it by hand without a banjo (mud and
tape applicator). Even with a banjo, you do not want to have to thoroughly
clean between mixes, as would be required by the setting type. You do NOT
mix a bucket at a time unless you can use it all up in about 15-20 minutes,
maximum working time for the 90 minute mud, and that is debatable.

The reason contractors do not use setting type, except around the
tub/shower, is because they do not want to have to thoroughly clean up
their mud boxes between coats. I know a crew that works with the boxed
redi-mix stuff and are done with an entire home in 2 days with flat walls,
not the textured walls. The walls look fantastic!

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, Jay-T wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the
prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes 24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And, they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each
bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per 5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and can
be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that
goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the
actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire
walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat
plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish
coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.

First off, if you put a fan on any of the types it will dry much faster. I
have used mixes of both. My preferred method is to use the bucket mud for
taping because it takes so long to do it by hand without a banjo (mud and
tape applicator). Even with a banjo, you do not want to have to thoroughly
clean between mixes, as would be required by the setting type. You do NOT
mix a bucket at a time unless you can use it all up in about 15-20
minutes,
maximum working time for the 90 minute mud, and that is debatable.

The reason contractors do not use setting type, except around the
tub/shower, is because they do not want to have to thoroughly clean up
their mud boxes between coats. I know a crew that works with the boxed
redi-mix stuff and are done with an entire home in 2 days with flat walls,
not the textured walls. The walls look fantastic!



You're full of **** clear to your ears...I guess you don't know many QUALITY
contractors..If you can't use 3/4 of a pail of mud (ONE bag) in one hour
(90) you're a slacker and wouldn't last ONE day working for me unless you're
a rookie...Besides they make 210 if it is a cut up job or staging work
....Need me to convert that to hours for you ??? Ok I will , it's 3
HOURS....Try your little fan trick up here when it's zero out and you're
using space heaters to heat a LARGE house or it's spring , summer or fall
and it's been foggy or raining for a week or longer or humid as
hell....Might work in Arizona but not here in coastal New England...Unless
it's a commercial job with long flat walls your banjos and boxes are pretty
much useless the way they build homes now with all the cathedrals , angles
and curves and COMPLETELY useless doing patch work in a renovation..The
square box type ranches up here are all modulars now...I can't remember the
last stick built ranch...LOL... .Besides the machines take atleast 2 or more
to operate them so the man hours are about equal or WORSE...Atleast compared
to a REAL taper..If they got the ENTIRE house done in 2 days I can imagine
what it looks like...I've seen HACKS like that too...Made alot of money
fixing their **** work....HTH...

On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:06:16 -0500, benick wrote:

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, Jay-T wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the
prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes 24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And, they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each
bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per 5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and can
be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that
goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the
actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire
walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat
plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish
coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be appreciated.

First off, if you put a fan on any of the types it will dry much faster. I
have used mixes of both. My preferred method is to use the bucket mud for
taping because it takes so long to do it by hand without a banjo (mud and
tape applicator). Even with a banjo, you do not want to have to thoroughly
clean between mixes, as would be required by the setting type. You do NOT
mix a bucket at a time unless you can use it all up in about 15-20
minutes,
maximum working time for the 90 minute mud, and that is debatable.

The reason contractors do not use setting type, except around the
tub/shower, is because they do not want to have to thoroughly clean up
their mud boxes between coats. I know a crew that works with the boxed
redi-mix stuff and are done with an entire home in 2 days with flat walls,
not the textured walls. The walls look fantastic!



You're full of **** clear to your ears...I guess you don't know many QUALITY
contractors..If you can't use 3/4 of a pail of mud (ONE bag) in one hour
(90) you're a slacker and wouldn't last ONE day working for me unless you're


90 minute mud is unworkable in 20 minutes max.


a rookie...Besides they make 210 if it is a cut up job or staging work
...Need me to convert that to hours for you ??? Ok I will , it's 3
HOURS....Try your little fan trick up here when it's zero out and you're
using space heaters to heat a LARGE house or it's spring , summer or fall
and it's been foggy or raining for a week or longer or humid as
hell....Might work in Arizona but not here in coastal New England...Unless
it's a commercial job with long flat walls your banjos and boxes are pretty
much useless the way they build homes now with all the cathedrals , angles
and curves and COMPLETELY useless doing patch work in a renovation..The
square box type ranches up here are all modulars now...I can't remember the
last stick built ranch...LOL... .Besides the machines take atleast 2 or more
to operate them so the man hours are about equal or WORSE...Atleast compared
to a REAL taper..If they got the ENTIRE house done in 2 days I can imagine
what it looks like...I've seen HACKS like that too...Made alot of money
fixing their **** work....HTH...

Typical abuser, adding unusual and unnamed circumstances to the mix. You
have never used the machines, nor seen them in action. In a 5-7 man crew
ONE person mixes mud and the rest are using the machines to apply mud and
tape. The machines only need ONE operator, not 2. This is a 2,000 sf custom
built homes with cathedrals and boxed mud! You obviously never saw anyone
on stilts either! An entire room is taped in less than 1 hour. Some of
these guys are faster on stilts than you are on the ground!

You obviously never tried to clean setting type mud out of a machine. If
you don't get it cleaned up quick, you may have to throw out that $300
piece of equipment. Once set you have to scrape it out, ruining the tank.
Boxed mud cleans up easily, even after drying. The slightest amount of
leftover mud will totally ruin a finish.

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:06:16 -0500, benick wrote:


90 minute mud is unworkable in 20 minutes max.



I don't mean to jump into the flame war you guys have going but that simply
isn't true.

If you use warm water or over mix it you will not get the rated time so
maybe that is your experience. The more times it is applied and scraped off
the wall also affects the time.

Failure to clean the mixer, tools or pans can also cause an early set.

Personally, all those things considered, I never mix more than I can use in
half the rated time and I do all the mixing without using a power tool.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:48:23 -0500, Colbyt wrote:

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:06:16 -0500, benick wrote:


90 minute mud is unworkable in 20 minutes max.



I don't mean to jump into the flame war you guys have going but that simply
isn't true.

If you use warm water or over mix it you will not get the rated time so
maybe that is your experience. The more times it is applied and scraped off
the wall also affects the time.

Failure to clean the mixer, tools or pans can also cause an early set.

Personally, all those things considered, I never mix more than I can use in
half the rated time and I do all the mixing without using a power tool.

I use the 90 minute mix with room temperature water and rarely get more
than about 20 minutes working time with it. I might get a half hour at the
most. The 45 minute stuff gives me about 15 minutes. I never really used a
stop watch to test this, but these estimates are based upon job start and
finish (cleanup time). It also depends on your definition of unworkable.
Mine is when I mix a thin slurry to do finish work and can't get a feather
edge anymore. I can still use it for another 10 minutes on fill, but not
last coat unless I don't mind a lot of sanding.

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:06:16 -0500, benick wrote:

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, Jay-T wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping
sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the
prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes
24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And,
they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying
setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each
bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't
tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and
pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per
5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and
can
be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't
mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that
goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the
actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire
walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat
plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish
coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that
is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of
Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be
appreciated.

First off, if you put a fan on any of the types it will dry much faster.
I
have used mixes of both. My preferred method is to use the bucket mud
for
taping because it takes so long to do it by hand without a banjo (mud
and
tape applicator). Even with a banjo, you do not want to have to
thoroughly
clean between mixes, as would be required by the setting type. You do
NOT
mix a bucket at a time unless you can use it all up in about 15-20
minutes,
maximum working time for the 90 minute mud, and that is debatable.

The reason contractors do not use setting type, except around the
tub/shower, is because they do not want to have to thoroughly clean up
their mud boxes between coats. I know a crew that works with the boxed
redi-mix stuff and are done with an entire home in 2 days with flat
walls,
not the textured walls. The walls look fantastic!



You're full of **** clear to your ears...I guess you don't know many
QUALITY
contractors..If you can't use 3/4 of a pail of mud (ONE bag) in one hour
(90) you're a slacker and wouldn't last ONE day working for me unless
you're


90 minute mud is unworkable in 20 minutes max.


a rookie...Besides they make 210 if it is a cut up job or staging work
...Need me to convert that to hours for you ??? Ok I will , it's 3
HOURS....Try your little fan trick up here when it's zero out and you're
using space heaters to heat a LARGE house or it's spring , summer or fall
and it's been foggy or raining for a week or longer or humid as
hell....Might work in Arizona but not here in coastal New
England...Unless
it's a commercial job with long flat walls your banjos and boxes are
pretty
much useless the way they build homes now with all the cathedrals ,
angles
and curves and COMPLETELY useless doing patch work in a renovation..The
square box type ranches up here are all modulars now...I can't remember
the
last stick built ranch...LOL... .Besides the machines take atleast 2 or
more
to operate them so the man hours are about equal or WORSE...Atleast
compared
to a REAL taper..If they got the ENTIRE house done in 2 days I can
imagine
what it looks like...I've seen HACKS like that too...Made alot of money
fixing their **** work....HTH...

Typical abuser, adding unusual and unnamed circumstances to the mix. You
have never used the machines, nor seen them in action. In a 5-7 man crew
ONE person mixes mud and the rest are using the machines to apply mud and
tape. The machines only need ONE operator, not 2. This is a 2,000 sf
custom
built homes with cathedrals and boxed mud! You obviously never saw anyone
on stilts either! An entire room is taped in less than 1 hour. Some of
these guys are faster on stilts than you are on the ground!

You obviously never tried to clean setting type mud out of a machine. If
you don't get it cleaned up quick, you may have to throw out that $300
piece of equipment. Once set you have to scrape it out, ruining the tank.
Boxed mud cleans up easily, even after drying. The slightest amount of
leftover mud will totally ruin a finish.



Ya , I've used them back in the 80's..Boxes , banjos , bazokkas....We used
hammers and nails too but times change and better ways emerge...You should
try learning....You obviously don't know **** about working times with
setting type compounds or don't know how to mix it or both...Why in the
world would you use setting type compound for the 3rd or finish coat ?? It
is a skim coat that dries enough to go through in a few minutes anyway...You
use the setting type for the first and second coat so you can keep working
without days of drying time...So explain how your boxes put on the MANY
boxes of Ultraflex you see in typical homes now with all the 45's ??? Or
coat the CASE of cornerbead...Or the curves ?? Eyebrow dormers are pretty
common as well..Round arches ??.How do you do them with a box ?? I bet I've
spent more time on stilts then you've been alive....Started with wooden
ones...Used to use a pole sander too but with the invention of the Porter
Cable Power Sander I CHANGED....We typically rough in (1st coat) everything
with Durabond 210 and use Easysand 90 for second coating in bathrooms ,
basements and garages or other "dark" rooms and regular mud everywhere else
unless weather conditions dictate otherwise.Renovations , patching and
repairing we use all setting type except the finish coat..Repairing and
skimming old plaster walls and ceilings we use all setting type except for
the finish coat as well...Really small additions or patch jobs , ect. we use
45...The point being is keeping the job moving forward without cutting
corners and doing a hack job..There is nothing that ****es the boss off more
than having a worker call and tell him they had to leave early or couldn't
work due to wet mud..****es the contractor off as well...I suppose you would
just 2nd coat wet tape too ??..Or coat wet corner bead and run the corners
with the other side still wet as well ??In a house that size(300+or- boards)
it would be a 2 taper job...One upstairs and one down..Done in 2 weeks or
less depending on how much staging work there is...Absolutely no call backs
for cracks...But then again most of our work is high end homes on the coast
where quality really matters....Like I said the small ranches and salt boxes
are almost all modular now..The boxes and banjos do have there place like I
said..Like in large commercial jobs with long walls with hundreds of stand
ups where quality doesn't mean as much...You can really fly...

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:53:23 -0500, benick wrote:

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:06:16 -0500, benick wrote:

"Michael Dobony" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:58:02 -0500, Jay-T wrote:

I have a few questions about choosing joint compound for taping
sheetrock
walls. I also have a question about "plaster".

For taping sheetrock walls:

I know there is "regular" pre-mixed and "lightweight" pre-mixed joint
compound that comes in 5-gallon buckets. I can easily see what the
prices
are for those products at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. I have used both of
these, so I have a pretty good idea of how they each work. One issue I
have
with them is that they take so long to dry between coats -- sometimes
24
hours, sometimes longer if they are used to fill thicker gaps. And,
they
both tend to shrink and crack when used on thicker gaps.

I also see bags of dry "setting type" joint compound with varying
setting
times such as 45, 90, etc. I can, of course, see the prices for each
bag.
But I can't tell how many bags it takes to mix up about the same amount
that
a 5 gallon bucket of pre-mixed joint compound contains -- so I can't
tell
how the dry-mix prices actually compare to the pre-mixed prices. Can
anyone
here give me an idea of how the two (dry-mix setting type and
pre-mixed)
compare in terms of cost for the same amount of product -- such as per
5
gallons of useable product?

And, aside from cost, has anyone decided to just go with the dry-mix
setting
type joint compounds even for large jobs simply because it dries and
can
be
re-coated in so much less time? Also, the dry-mix setting type product
doesn't seem to shrink when drying which is a plus for me. I don't
mind
doing the mixing etc., but I never saw a contractor using the dry-mix
product so I wonder if there are disadvantages or reasons why using the
dry-mix is not generally recommended for most taping jobs.

And, about "plaster":

I seem to recall that I used to be able to buy actual plaster at places
like
Home Depot and Lowes, but I don't see that there these days. And, I
thought
I used to be able to buy the "rough coat" ("brown coat") product that
goes
on underneath the finish coat of plaster. By "plaster", I mean the
actual
finish coat plaster that old time plasters use for plastering entire
walls.
I think the plaster was called "finishing plaster" or "finish coat
plaster"
and not Plaster of Paris, but I don't know for sure. And, the finish
coat
plaster dried fairly slowly but did not shrink and dried to a very hard
finish. Am I correct that there is a product out there somewhere that
is
called finish coat plaster, and that is not the same as Plaster of
Paris?

Any info or suggestions regarding all of the above would be
appreciated.

First off, if you put a fan on any of the types it will dry much faster.
I
have used mixes of both. My preferred method is to use the bucket mud
for
taping because it takes so long to do it by hand without a banjo (mud
and
tape applicator). Even with a banjo, you do not want to have to
thoroughly
clean between mixes, as would be required by the setting type. You do
NOT
mix a bucket at a time unless you can use it all up in about 15-20
minutes,
maximum working time for the 90 minute mud, and that is debatable.

The reason contractors do not use setting type, except around the
tub/shower, is because they do not want to have to thoroughly clean up
their mud boxes between coats. I know a crew that works with the boxed
redi-mix stuff and are done with an entire home in 2 days with flat
walls,
not the textured walls. The walls look fantastic!



You're full of **** clear to your ears...I guess you don't know many
QUALITY
contractors..If you can't use 3/4 of a pail of mud (ONE bag) in one hour
(90) you're a slacker and wouldn't last ONE day working for me unless
you're


90 minute mud is unworkable in 20 minutes max.


a rookie...Besides they make 210 if it is a cut up job or staging work
...Need me to convert that to hours for you ??? Ok I will , it's 3
HOURS....Try your little fan trick up here when it's zero out and you're
using space heaters to heat a LARGE house or it's spring , summer or fall
and it's been foggy or raining for a week or longer or humid as
hell....Might work in Arizona but not here in coastal New
England...Unless
it's a commercial job with long flat walls your banjos and boxes are
pretty
much useless the way they build homes now with all the cathedrals ,
angles
and curves and COMPLETELY useless doing patch work in a renovation..The
square box type ranches up here are all modulars now...I can't remember
the
last stick built ranch...LOL... .Besides the machines take atleast 2 or
more
to operate them so the man hours are about equal or WORSE...Atleast
compared
to a REAL taper..If they got the ENTIRE house done in 2 days I can
imagine
what it looks like...I've seen HACKS like that too...Made alot of money
fixing their **** work....HTH...

Typical abuser, adding unusual and unnamed circumstances to the mix. You
have never used the machines, nor seen them in action. In a 5-7 man crew
ONE person mixes mud and the rest are using the machines to apply mud and
tape. The machines only need ONE operator, not 2. This is a 2,000 sf
custom
built homes with cathedrals and boxed mud! You obviously never saw anyone
on stilts either! An entire room is taped in less than 1 hour. Some of
these guys are faster on stilts than you are on the ground!

You obviously never tried to clean setting type mud out of a machine. If
you don't get it cleaned up quick, you may have to throw out that $300
piece of equipment. Once set you have to scrape it out, ruining the tank.
Boxed mud cleans up easily, even after drying. The slightest amount of
leftover mud will totally ruin a finish.



Ya , I've used them back in the 80's..Boxes , banjos , bazokkas....We used
hammers and nails too but times change and better ways emerge...You should
try learning....You obviously don't know **** about working times with
setting type compounds or don't know how to mix it or both...Why in the
world would you use setting type compound for the 3rd or finish coat ?? It
is a skim coat that dries enough to go through in a few minutes anyway...

That is fine if you intend to spray. How many home owners doing small
repair jobs will be spraying the paint? Zero. I have worked with your
box/bucket mud and rolling the paint on washes off the feathering and
exposes the repair. Using setting type on

You
use the setting type for the first and second coat so you can keep working
without days of drying time...So explain how your boxes put on the MANY
boxes of Ultraflex you see in typical homes now with all the 45's ??? Or
coat the CASE of cornerbead...Or the curves ?? Eyebrow dormers are pretty
common as well..Round arches ??.How do you do them with a box ??


Then you know better than the professional crew that needs 4-5 hanging
crews to keep the mudders busy. You know better than them how to do a
$750,000 custom home with your 45's and arches and cathedrals. They were
done with the taping and first coat the first day with boxed mud.

I bet I've
spent more time on stilts then you've been alive....Started with wooden
ones...Used to use a pole sander too but with the invention of the Porter
Cable Power Sander I CHANGED....


You mean like this one?
http://www.cpoworkshop.com/sanders/d...ers/7800r.html

So what does that have to do with the efficient use of mud boxes that have
to be cleaned frequently if you use hot mud in them and cleaned as
thoroughly as a surgery room? You can use box/bucket mud in them all day
long and only clean them when you are done with the job. Why do you need
two people dedicated to one box? Don't you know how to use them? One man
mixes mud for everybody. Two to three men are running banjos/bazookas. One
man is going over the tape joints with a knife. One man uses the corner
tool to clean up the corners. Then things change, everybody except the
mixer gets narrow tape box to cover the tape. Then it's lunch time. What is
wrong with your crew that you need more people to run one box?


We typically rough in (1st coat) everything
with Durabond 210 and use Easysand 90 for second coating in bathrooms ,
basements and garages or other "dark" rooms and regular mud everywhere else
unless weather conditions dictate otherwise.Renovations , patching and
repairing we use all setting type except the finish coat..Repairing and
skimming old plaster walls and ceilings we use all setting type except for
the finish coat as well...Really small additions or patch jobs , ect. we use
45...The point being is keeping the job moving forward without cutting
corners and doing a hack job..

What method do you use to apply the hot mud? How often do you clean your
equipment? You cannot let the old mud dry on your gear or it will first
ruin the next area and be a total pain to clean off as it will not wash off
with water.



There is nothing that ****es the boss off more
than having a worker call and tell him they had to leave early or couldn't
work due to wet mud..****es the contractor off as well...I suppose you would
just 2nd coat wet tape too ??..

They are done in 2 days with a 2.000 sf home. Whay would a contractor be
mad at that?

Or coat wet corner bead and run the corners
with the other side still wet as well ??In a house that size(300+or- boards)
it would be a 2 taper job...One upstairs and one down..Done in 2 weeks or
less depending on how much staging work there is...Absolutely no call backs
for cracks...

They never got called back for cracks unless the hanging crew messed up on
the doorways and window openings. My boss and I had to go back over such a
crew's work once. They put joints above the corners of several doors and
windows. The other 3 man crew spent a week on that smaller house. My boss
and I did 2,000 sf homes with 3 car garages in 4 days and did a quality
job. We were the finisher's favorite crew. He wanted me to continue when my
boss quit to go to college. These houses sold for a minimum of $250,000 and
we were never out of work for more than a day or 2 a month waiting on
carpenter crews or inspections.

But then again most of our work is high end homes on the coast
where quality really matters....Like I said the small ranches and salt boxes
are almost all modular now..The boxes and banjos do have there place like I
said..Like in large commercial jobs with long walls with hundreds of stand
ups where quality doesn't mean as much...You can really fly...