I posted HVAC question recently. I met my architect today and I
brought up the question about heatng my new addition with radiant
heated floor and possibly baseboard radiator. I started looking for
radiant heat info online and could not find any complete information
about hydraulic system. I read about various parts (PEX tubing,
manifold, zone valves, etc.) However I still do not understand the
whole system and what connects to what in what order. Can someone
point me to where I can find this info? Also any useful book or other
info about installing hydraulic radian heat would be appreciated.

In addition I have a couple of general questions:

1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would be the
best to use the same boiler.

3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators? My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at least
part of installation can be DIY.

On Dec 23, 7:50*pm, ls02 wrote:
I posted HVAC question recently. I met my architect today and I
brought up the question about heatng my new addition with radiant
heated floor and possibly baseboard radiator. I started looking for
radiant heat info online and could not find any complete information
about hydraulic system. I read about various parts (PEX tubing,
manifold, zone valves, etc.) However I still do not understand the
whole system and what connects to what in what order. Can someone
point me to where I can find this info? Also any useful book or other
info about installing hydraulic radian heat would be appreciated.

In addition I have a couple of general questions:

1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would be the
best to use the same boiler.

3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators? My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at least
part of installation can be DIY.

I lived in a place with just underfloor radiant, it was the best heat
ive had, no cold feet. Here in Chgo it gets to -20 and lower, many
places have just radiant, which I think is cheaper to run than
baseboard. Baseboard heats the perimiter, radiant is under you since
its spread out in the floor so you can feel warmer with a lower stat
temp. Radiators on exterior walls loose some heat to the outside
heating exterior walls, thats a second reason radiant can be more
efficent. Some baseboard need near 180f temp, radiant needs near 110 -
120 which is safe for wood. A condensing boiler looses efficency above
about 140f so radiant can be the most efficent for many reasons, and
it works wherever you live, you just size it. Your architect says it
cant be done, you need a new architect. www.heatinghelp.com is where
boiler pros are. My first choise would be radiant.

ls02 wrote:


1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

Perhaps you need a new architect. Yes, it can be done, I've seen it done.



2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would be the
best to use the same boiler.

Yes, but the water may need to be at different temperatures for different
uses. Water heaters can be indirectr fired through a heat exchanger and it
is very efficient that way.



3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

Yes, it is not all that hot.



4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

Electric heat is often two or three times the cost of oil or gas. I don't
know the comparison between the radiant and hot air though, but a good
heating contractor may.



5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators? My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

Yes, but again you may need different temperatures on different zones if you
are mixing heat types. Baseboard runs with water in the 170 to 180 range
while radiant is about 120, IIRC.


6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at least
part of installation can be DIY.

Yes, there are many different types used depending on construction. Some is
done from above, others below.

In any case, if the boiler is old you can save a lot of money with a new
one. I had a System 2000 by Energy Kinetics installed last year. My oil
bill for the last 49 weeks dropped 39.4% as compared to the 30 year old
boiler. Rebates may be available also, as well as tax credits.

In article , ls02 wrote:
I posted HVAC question recently. I met my architect today and I
brought up the question about heatng my new addition with radiant
heated floor and possibly baseboard radiator. I started looking for
radiant heat info online and could not find any complete information
about hydraulic system. I read about various parts (PEX tubing,
manifold, zone valves, etc.) However I still do not understand the
whole system and what connects to what in what order. Can someone
point me to where I can find this info? Also any useful book or other
info about installing hydraulic radian heat would be appreciated.

First off, you'll have *much* better luck finding information online using the
correct terminology: "hydronic radiant heat" or simply "hydronic heating". Not
"hydraulic".

An outstanding online resource is www.heatinghelp.com.

The best print resource I've ever seen is "Modern Hydronic Heating" by John
Siegenthaler. It's a bit pricey:
http://www.amazon.
com/Residential-Commercial-Buildings-Ventilation-Conditioning/dp/0827365950

It took me six *years* of trying before I was able to buy one on eBay for
under $60. You may be able to find a copy at your local library.

Other good print resources are any books on the subject by Dan Holohan.

http://www.amazon.
com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=dan+holohan

In addition I have a couple of general questions:

1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

You need to find an architect who knows something about hydronic heating. The
one you're talking to now doesn't. He's completely full of beans.

2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would be the
best to use the same boiler.

Yes, but... You probably don't really want to do that, because it means
keeping the boiler active all year long. And it's a chunk more expensive to
install. It's considerably less expensive to use a separate water heater.

3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

Of course they can. Wood actually isn't very sensitive to temperature at all;
it's humidity that causes problems with wood.

4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

Most sources I've seen say that hydronic is 10-15% cheaper to operate than
forced air. It's unquestionably more expensive to install. Much more.

5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators? My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

Absolutely.

6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at least
part of installation can be DIY.

Yes, it can. I've done it myself (not an entire system, just a couple of
rooms), and the results have been excellent. But I spent literally hundreds of
hours studying the Siegenthaler text and making and checking and rechecking my
calculations. It's *not* easy.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , ls02 wrote:
I posted HVAC question recently. I met my architect today and I
brought up the question about heatng my new addition with radiant
heated floor and possibly baseboard radiator. I started looking for
radiant heat info online and could not find any complete information
about hydraulic system. I read about various parts (PEX tubing,
manifold, zone valves, etc.) However I still do not understand the
whole system and what connects to what in what order. Can someone
point me to where I can find this info? Also any useful book or other
info about installing hydraulic radian heat would be appreciated.

First off, you'll have *much* better luck finding information online using the
correct terminology: "hydronic radiant heat" or simply "hydronic heating". Not
"hydraulic".


Perhaps there are hydraulic cylinders rubbing two big hands
together in order to produce heat? The hydraulic heating
system could make the house shiver when it gets cold, thus
warming things up through friction.

TDD

Maybe that's the hydraulic.

Anyhow.... yes, it (Wirsbo or other hydrionic heat) can be
the primary heat source. The floor temp runs 85F or so, and
is very pleasant to walk on. I'm told. A couple friends of
mine did much of the tubing run themselves, when they had a
new house constructed. From what I hear, the heat is very
stable, and pleasant. However, it lacks the ability to do
AC. And, there is no air filtration.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote
in message ...

Perhaps there are hydraulic cylinders rubbing two big hands
together in order to produce heat? The hydraulic heating
system could make the house shiver when it gets cold, thus
warming things up through friction.

TDD

1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the
primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be
used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

SM: Should be possible. Hydrionic lacks the ability to AC or
to filter dust out of the air. If you use pure water, the
pipes could freeze during a power cut.

2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating
and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement
anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would
be the
best to use the same boiler.

SM: Yes, I've worked on systems with an indirect heater,
which heats water for showers, dishes, etc. Should be
possible to combine them. Of course, that's the time to
consider which fuel to use. Some parts of the world, fuel
oil, natural gas, or propane. Based on what's available, and
what's most reasonably priced.

3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is
extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

SM: Should be fine. During the winter, you'll be wishing
for a humidifier of some kind, or your house will massively
dry out.

4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced
air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms
and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

SM: Installation, I don't know. Operation cost varies, with
the cost of fuel. Most areas, cheaper than electric, very
much so.

5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators?
My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

SM: Baseboard radiators are different temp than Wirsbo, but
it should be possible.

6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming
there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at
least
part of installation can be DIY.

SM: I've known families who did much of the install
themselves. The one family I know, when they had the cement
floor poured, the tubes to the heating manifold got shifted,
and the manifold was too close to the floor, and crooked. He
wasn't at all pleased.

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:

SM: Should be fine. During the winter, you'll be wishing
for a humidifier of some kind, or your house will massively
dry out.

Pfffft. Hydronic radiant heat doesn't dry out a house anywhere nearly as much
as forced air does.

Both hold the indoor temp without adding humidity. Why would
one be worse?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

SM: Should be fine. During the winter, you'll be wishing
for a humidifier of some kind, or your house will massively
dry out.

Pfffft. Hydronic radiant heat doesn't dry out a house
anywhere nearly as much
as forced air does.

On Dec 23, 10:31*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , ls02 wrote:

I posted HVAC question recently. I met my architect today and I
brought up the question about heatng my new addition with radiant
heated floor and possibly baseboard radiator. I started looking for
radiant heat info online and could not find any complete information
about hydraulic system. I read about various parts (PEX tubing,
manifold, zone valves, etc.) However I still do not understand the
whole system and what connects to what in what order. Can someone
point me to where I can find this info? Also any useful book or other
info about installing hydraulic radian heat would be appreciated.

First off, you'll have *much* better luck finding information online using the
correct terminology: "hydronic radiant heat" or simply "hydronic heating".. Not
"hydraulic".

An outstanding online resource iswww.heatinghelp.com.

The best print resource I've ever seen is "Modern Hydronic Heating" by John
Siegenthaler. It's a bit pricey:http://www.amazon.
com/Residential-Commercial-Buildings-Ventilation-Conditioning/dp/0827365950

It took me six *years* of trying before I was able to buy one on eBay for
under $60. You may be able to find a copy at your local library.

Other good print resources are any books on the subject by Dan Holohan.

http://www.amazon.
com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=dan+holohan



In addition I have a couple of general questions:

1. Can hydraulic radian heat under wood floors be the primary or the
only source of heating? My architect said No, it can only be used or
comfort, and need to be supplemented by other heat source.

You need to find an architect who knows something about hydronic heating. The
one you're talking to now doesn't. He's completely full of beans.



2. Is there way to combine boiler used for radiant heating and for hot
water? My boiler is small and old and needs replacement anyway. If i
decide installing radiant heat in part of my house it would be the
best to use the same boiler.

Yes, but... You probably don't really want to do that, because it means
keeping the boiler active all year long. And it's a chunk more expensive to
install. It's considerably less expensive to use a separate water heater.



3. Can wood floors survive heat underneath? I know wood is extremely
sensitive to temprerature.

Of course they can. Wood actually isn't very sensitive to temperature at all;
it's humidity that causes problems with wood.



4. How expensive hydraulic radian heat vs. standard forced air gas
furnace? I have electric radiant heat in my two bathrooms and kitchen
under tiled floor and it is very expensive to run.

Most sources I've seen say that hydronic is 10-15% cheaper to operate than
forced air. It's unquestionably more expensive to install. Much more.



5. Can the same boiler be used to heat baseboard radiators? My
architect said it is the cheapest way to heat th house.

Absolutely.



6. Can hydraulic radian heat installation be DIY? Assuming there is
professional layout and calculations done, it seems to me at least
part of installation can be DIY.

Yes, it can. I've done it myself (not an entire system, just a couple of
rooms), and the results have been excellent. But I spent literally hundreds of
hours studying the Siegenthaler text and making and checking and rechecking my
calculations. It's *not* easy.

Thank you for the info. I of cause apologize for "hydraulic" it indeed
needs to be "hydronic".

I will sure get and read "Modern Hydronic Heating" . If I decide to go
for radiant heat and the more I read the more appealing it sounds I
will have to DIY most of the work or I won't be able to afford it. I
myself installed electric radiant heat in two bathrooms and kitchen,
though I realize it is nowhere that complex as hydronic system.
I won't take on putting a design myself, what system to choose and
what manufacturers (I did some search online and they are quite a
few). Ideally for me I would pay someone to do this design, advice me
on what to buy and where to put the system and I will do most or all
of the work. However ,I don't know where to start. I don't believe we
have in our area HVAC contractors who do radiant heat. I live in
relatively affluent area in Central NJ (average house here is around
$550K) I don't know anyone who installed hydronic or any other radiant
heat.

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Both hold the indoor temp without adding humidity. Why would
one be worse?

The air from a forced-air heating vent is *much* hotter than room temp, and
its relative humidity is therefore lower.

On Dec 24, 4:54*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:Both hold the indoor temp without adding humidity. Why would
one be worse?

The air from a forced-air heating vent is *much* hotter than room temp, and
its relative humidity is therefore lower.

and then it cools and goes up.

And, the hot furnace air mixes with the room air. The room
ends up being the same temp. Forced hot air doesn't remove
any water, just changes the RH based on temp change. Neither
hot air, nor floor heat adds or removes water, unless the
hot air has a humidifier installed.

I don't see any difference.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Both hold the indoor temp without adding humidity. Why
would
one be worse?

The air from a forced-air heating vent is *much* hotter than
room temp, and
its relative humidity is therefore lower.

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
And, the hot furnace air mixes with the room air. The room
ends up being the same temp. Forced hot air doesn't remove
any water, just changes the RH based on temp change. Neither
hot air, nor floor heat adds or removes water, unless the
hot air has a humidifier installed.

I don't see any difference.

Never lived in a house with radiant heat, have you?

replying to Doug Miller, sherwoodarcher wrote:
spambait wrote:

In article , "Stormin Mormon"
Never lived in a house with radiant heat, have you?



I personally liked radiant floor heating, as much my dog too. Very
comfort temperature of warm floors instead dry and overheated air from
forced air heating system.
--


--

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 11:44:08 PM UTC-4, sherwoodarcher wrote:
replying to Doug Miller, sherwoodarcher wrote:
spambait wrote:

In article , "Stormin Mormon"
Never lived in a house with radiant heat, have you?



I personally liked radiant floor heating, as much my dog too. Very
comfort temperature of warm floors instead dry and overheated air from
forced air heating system.
--


The dry air issue on forced air can be solved with a humidifier that
will maintain humidity at whatever you like. I've never understood
the claimed issue with forced air heat being "dry". The issue would
seem to be that any air that is heated will have a drop in relative
humidity. The air gets heated the same whether it's forced air,
baseboard or radiant. A furnace doesn't magically extract water from
the air. I can understand that different heats may be perceived
differently and you may prefer radiant for that reason, but I don't
see how radiant heating would maintain humidity levels, while a
forced air furnace would not. Unless the forced air system is leaking,
sucking outside air in somehow, which may have been a factor in decades
gone by. But seems to me a perfectly working forced air system
would result in the same relative humidity inside the house as
any other system.

ONLY FORCED AIR allows air conditioning, and forced air furnaces, at least gas approach 100% efficency

On 10/20/2015 8:20 AM, trader_4 wrote:


The dry air issue on forced air can be solved with a humidifier that
will maintain humidity at whatever you like. I've never understood
the claimed issue with forced air heat being "dry". The issue would
seem to be that any air that is heated will have a drop in relative
humidity. The air gets heated the same whether it's forced air,
baseboard or radiant.

In theory, forced hot air can be filtered, humidified, ionizied,
odorized, de-farted, radiated, and anything else you may want to do with
it. But is not usually done right.

I think the real issue is combustion air and the intake and venting. No
matter the fuel, if you are sucking combustion air in through the
leaking windows and doors, burning the heated air and then venting up
the stack, it is going to be a dry climate.

We have HW baseboard and had to run a humidifier in the winter for
comfort. When the boiler was replaced, the new one draws combustion air
from outside directly to the burner leaving the rest of the air in the
house alone. It is more comfortable as the humidity drops less by
comparison.

The forced air may also feel dryer as it is blowing around. Never did
any measuring though, but people's perception, real or imagined, is that
hot air heat is dryer. It does not have to be.

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 11:35:10 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/20/2015 8:20 AM, trader_4 wrote:


The dry air issue on forced air can be solved with a humidifier that
will maintain humidity at whatever you like. I've never understood
the claimed issue with forced air heat being "dry". The issue would
seem to be that any air that is heated will have a drop in relative
humidity. The air gets heated the same whether it's forced air,
baseboard or radiant.

In theory, forced hot air can be filtered, humidified, ionizied,
odorized, de-farted, radiated, and anything else you may want to do with
it. But is not usually done right.

I think the real issue is combustion air and the intake and venting. No
matter the fuel, if you are sucking combustion air in through the
leaking windows and doors, burning the heated air and then venting up
the stack, it is going to be a dry climate.


I agree. But at time marches on, more and more furnaces have
combustion air brought in from outside. Worst case would have
been a furnace in the living space that did not have outside
air. I can see that making a big difference in indoor humidity.


We have HW baseboard and had to run a humidifier in the winter for
comfort. When the boiler was replaced, the new one draws combustion air
from outside directly to the burner leaving the rest of the air in the
house alone. It is more comfortable as the humidity drops less by
comparison.


That confirms what I was saying.


The forced air may also feel dryer as it is blowing around. Never did
any measuring though, but people's perception, real or imagined, is that
hot air heat is dryer. It does not have to be.

Agree.

Couple things to think about:

Forced air can heat, cool, and dehumidify. Hydronic can only heat. What do you need?

Either can heat the room to any given temperature.

Forced air can be from a furnace or a heat pump. Heat pump air delivery temperatures are usually cooler and some people don't like that. But they can get the room up to whatever temperature you want. Forced air especially from a furnace can be faster to heat the room than hydronic.

Stormy is right about relative humidity. It doesn't matter how you heat the room air. What matters is the tightness.

I had hydronic heat in Wisconsin. In the winter the air stayed too dry regardless of how we tried to humidify. It was typical old frame house construction with lots of air changes (meaning outside air replaces the inside air at a regular rate). I had hydronic heat in Germany in a similar climate, but the opposite happened. The house was very tight due to masonry and plaster construction, well designed windows and doors. Unless we opened windows a couple times a day, water condensed on surfaces and mold grew, just from the humidity added by people breathing, cooking, and showering.

On 10/20/2015 11:45 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
The forced air may also feel dryer as it is blowing around. Never did
any measuring though, but people's perception, real or imagined, is that
hot air heat is dryer. It does not have to be.


That's my personal theory.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..