Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

On Jun 5, 7:31*am, " wrote:
Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

Wholesale cost on that unit is roughly $1,700, give or take. Remember
that the tax credit is on the installed cost, not the unit alone as
you stated. But still, you have a valid concern on the overall cost
savings, especially with natural gas costs as low as they are right
now.

JK

On Jun 5, 7:31*am, " wrote:
Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself.
Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you
should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise
of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.

On Jun 5, 9:09�am, ransley wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:31�am, " wrote:





Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself.
Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you
should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise
of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost

Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost

I don't know how "odd" they were, but brief poking around the web
seems to indicate that they are right. But, in the case of water
heaters (and furnaces, heat pumps, and AC) the credit is based on the
installed cost, probably because your plumber or HVAC installer has no
desire to share the cost of the equipment with you.

JK

On Jun 5, 5:52*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Jun 5, 9:09 am, ransley wrote:





On Jun 5, 7:31 am, " wrote:

Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself.
Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you
should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise
of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You still dont get it and I dont think ever will, the Vertex is about
12- TWELVE %, less efficent than Condensing Tankless like Navien, and
Takagi. Thermal Efficency is not the certified E.F. rating. Can you
even find AO Smiths EF rating on a vertex? I cant. AO openly publishes
EF on all their other WH but why not Vertex? The answer is because
its near 83 EF and they dont want you to know there is better more
efficent stuff out there for the same money. Thermal Efficency is not
a test, it does not take into account real life usage, its not a
certified rated "test", as the main culpret off heat loss is up the
uninsulated center of tank. If you want the most efficent, its Ng
condensing Tankless. Post a link to AO Vertex EF Rating, if you can,
not their "thermal efficency" bs statement that means nothing for
overall usage and is unrecognised by the Gov. I own the Vertex`s big
brother , a 190000 btu AO Cyclone. I own tankless, and tanks. Learn
what the frigin ratings mean.

On Jun 5, 11:54�pm, Big_Jake wrote:
Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost

I don't know how "odd" they were, but brief poking around the web
seems to indicate that they are right. �But, in the case of water
heaters (and furnaces, heat pumps, and AC) the credit is based on the
installed cost, probably because your plumber or HVAC installer has no
desire to share the cost of the equipment with you.

JK

Well thats great news

I would replace my existing 75,000 BTU 50 gallon tank with a 75 gallon
75,000 BTU one since the 50 gallon doesnt appear to be available
anymore.......

This tank is about 900 bucks. and requires a chimney, and mine is bad:
(

my cost of $2,200 for the vertex less 30% tax break $660 about 1600
bucks cheaper than rebuilding the chimney at this time muchmore
efficent and stops sending pre heated room air up chimney 24/7

On Jun 6, 7:56*am, ransley wrote:
On Jun 5, 5:52*pm, bob haller wrote:





On Jun 5, 9:09 am, ransley wrote:

On Jun 5, 7:31 am, " wrote:

Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself.
Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you
should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise
of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You still dont get it and I dont think ever will, the Vertex is about
12- TWELVE %, less efficent than Condensing Tankless like Navien, and
Takagi. *Thermal Efficency is not the certified E.F. rating. Can you
even find AO Smiths EF rating on a vertex? I cant. AO openly publishes
EF on all their other WH but why not Vertex? *The answer is because
its near 83 EF and they dont want you to know there is better more
efficent stuff out there for the same money. *Thermal Efficency is not
a test, it does not take into account real life usage, its not a
certified rated "test", as the main culpret off heat loss is up the
uninsulated center of tank. If you want the most efficent, its Ng
condensing Tankless. Post a link to AO Vertex EF Rating, if you can,
not their "thermal efficency" bs statement that means nothing for
overall usage and is unrecognised by the Gov. I own the Vertex`s big
brother , a 190000 btu AO Cyclone. I own tankless, and tanks. Learn
what the frigin ratings mean.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


from consumer reports.........

Tankless water heaters
They're efficient but not necessarily economical


VIDEO:
Tankless water heaters
All videos
Heating water accounts for up to 30 percent of the average home's
energy budget. Some makers of gas-fired tankless water heaters claim
their products can cut your energy costs up to half over regular
storage heaters. So is it time to switch?

Probably not. Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered
burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger,
were 22 percent more energy efficient on average than the gas-fired
storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of
around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 national energy costs. But
because they cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up
to 22 years to break even—longer than the 20-year life of many models.
Moreover, our online poll of 1,200 readers revealed wide variations in
installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction.

With the help of an outside lab, we pitted Takagi and Noritz gas-fired
tankless water heaters against three storage water heaters. We didn't
test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water
fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground*water is
cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need
to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless
model.

Our tests simulated daily use of 76 to 78 gallons of hot water. That's
the equivalent of taking three showers, washing one laun*dry load,
running the dishwasher once (six cycles), and turning on the faucet
nine times, for a total of 19 draws. While that's considered heavy use
compared with the standard Department of Energy test, we think it more
accurately represents an average family's habits. We also ran more
than 45,000 gallons of very hard water through a tanked model and a
Rinnai tankless model to simulate about 11 years of regular use.

Here's what else we found:

Water runs hot and cold
Manufacturers of tankless water heaters are fond of touting their
products' ability to provide an endless amount of hot water. But
inconsistent water temperatures were a common complaint among our poll
respondents. When you turn on the faucet, tankless models feed in some
cold water to gauge how big a temperature rise is needed. If there's
cool water lingering in your pipes, you'll receive a momentary "cold-
water sandwich" between the old and new hot water. And a tankless
water heater's burner might not ignite when you try to get just a
trickle of hot water for, say, shaving.

Nor do tankless water heaters deliver hot water instantaneously. It
takes time to heat the water to the target temperature, and just like
storage water heaters, any cold water in the pipes needs to be pushed
out. And tankless models' electric controls mean you'll also lose hot
water during a power outage.

Up-front costs are high
The tankless water heaters we tested cost $800 to $1,150, compared
with $300 to $480 for the regular storage-tank types. Tankless models
need electrical outlets for their fan and electronics, upgraded gas
pipes, and a new ventilation system. That can bring average
installation costs to $1,200, compared with $300 for storage-tank
models.

Tankless units might need more care
During our long-term testing, an indicator on the tankless model
warned of scale buildup. We paid $334 for special valves and a plumber
to flush out the water heater with vinegar. Many industry pros
recommend that tankless models be serviced once a year by a qualified
technician. Calcium buildup can decrease efficiency, restrict water
flow, and damage tankless models. Experts suggest installing a water
softener if your water hardness is above 11 grains per gallon.
Ignoring this advice can shorten your warranty.

Efficient storage models are pricey
We also tested the $1,400 Vertex, a high-efficiency storage water
heater by A.O. Smith. The manufacturer claims its installation costs
are similar to a regular storage model. But its high cost offsets much
of the roughly $70 per year the Vertex will save you. Instead, we
recommend buying a conventional storage water heater with a 9- or 12-
year warranty. In previous tests, we found that those models generally
had thicker insulation, bigger burners or larger heating elements, and
better corrosion-fighting metal rods called anodes.

On Jun 6, 8:03*am, bob haller wrote:
On Jun 6, 7:56*am, ransley wrote:





On Jun 5, 5:52*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Jun 5, 9:09 am, ransley wrote:

On Jun 5, 7:31 am, " wrote:

Thinking of replacing my old tank with a vertex, which now qualifies
for FED tax credit on cost of unit 30%

Wierdly a local installer quoted me on the phone $2,200 installed but
on line pricing for just the tank is right about this price.

Honestly I am not convinced it will save much money once the higher up
front cost is taken into account But the recovery is awesome.

My existing tank is a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU one, they are low efficency
fast recovery.

I am re configuring the basement a little and doing some sewer work
and want to replace the tank this summer

besides my chimney needs the top rebuilt, so the direct vent tank will
make the chimney work low priority.

chimney will be unused, it was for furnace and watewr heater both will
be direct vent, furnace replaced last year

The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself.
Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you
should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise
of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Vertex is 96% efficency.

guarantee 6 years.

odd people installing insulation stated tax credit is only on
materials cost- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You still dont get it and I dont think ever will, the Vertex is about
12- TWELVE %, less efficent than Condensing Tankless like Navien, and
Takagi. *Thermal Efficency is not the certified E.F. rating. Can you
even find AO Smiths EF rating on a vertex? I cant. AO openly publishes
EF on all their other WH but why not Vertex? *The answer is because
its near 83 EF and they dont want you to know there is better more
efficent stuff out there for the same money. *Thermal Efficency is not
a test, it does not take into account real life usage, its not a
certified rated "test", as the main culpret off heat loss is up the
uninsulated center of tank. If you want the most efficent, its Ng
condensing Tankless. Post a link to AO Vertex EF Rating, if you can,
not their "thermal efficency" bs statement that means nothing for
overall usage and is unrecognised by the Gov. I own the Vertex`s big
brother , a 190000 btu AO Cyclone. I own tankless, and tanks. Learn
what the frigin ratings mean.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

from consumer reports.........

Tankless water heaters
They're efficient but not necessarily economical

VIDEO:
Tankless water heaters
All videos
Heating water accounts for up to 30 percent of the average home's
energy budget. Some makers of gas-fired tankless water heaters claim
their products can cut your energy costs up to half over regular
storage heaters. So is it time to switch?

Probably not. Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered
burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger,
were 22 percent more energy efficient on average than the gas-fired
storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of
around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 national energy costs. But
because they cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up
to 22 years to break even—longer than the 20-year life of many models.
Moreover, our online poll of 1,200 readers revealed wide variations in
installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction.

With the help of an outside lab, we pitted Takagi and Noritz gas-fired
tankless water heaters against three storage water heaters. We didn't
test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water
fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground*water is
cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need
to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless
model.

Our tests simulated daily use of 76 to 78 gallons of hot water. That's
the equivalent of taking three showers, washing one laun*dry load,
running the dishwasher once (six cycles), and turning on the faucet
nine times, for a total of 19 draws. While that's considered heavy use
compared with the standard Department of Energy test, we think it more
accurately represents an average family's habits. We also ran more
than 45,000 gallons of very hard water through a tanked model and a
Rinnai tankless model to simulate about 11 years of regular use.

Here's what else we found:

Water runs hot and cold
Manufacturers of tankless water heaters are fond of touting their
products' ability to provide an endless amount of hot water. But
inconsistent water temperatures were a common complaint among our poll
respondents. When you turn on the faucet, tankless models feed in some
cold water to gauge how big a temperature rise is needed. If there's
cool water lingering in your pipes, you'll receive a momentary "cold-
water sandwich" between the old and new hot water. And a tankless
water heater's burner might not ignite when you try to get just a
trickle of hot water for, say, shaving.

Nor do tankless water heaters deliver hot water instantaneously. It
takes time to heat the water to the target temperature, and just like
storage water heaters, any cold water in the pipes needs to be pushed
out. And tankless models' electric controls mean you'll also lose hot
water during a power outage.

Up-front costs are high
The tankless water heaters we tested cost $800 to $1,150, compared
with $300 to $480 for the regular storage-tank types. Tankless models
need electrical outlets for their fan and electronics, upgraded gas
pipes, and a new ventilation system. That can bring average
installation costs to $1,200, compared with $300 for storage-tank
models.

Tankless units might need more care
During our long-term testing, an indicator on the tankless model
warned of scale buildup. We paid $334 for special valves and a plumber
to flush out the water heater with vinegar. Many industry pros
recommend that tankless models be serviced once a year by a qualified
technician. Calcium buildup can decrease efficiency, restrict water
flow, and damage tankless models. Experts suggest installing a water
softener if your water hardness is above 11 grains per gallon.
Ignoring this advice can shorten your warranty.

Efficient storage models are pricey
We also tested the $1,400 Vertex, a high-efficiency storage water
heater by A.O. Smith. The manufacturer claims its installation costs
are similar to a regular storage model. But its high cost offsets much
of the roughly $70 per year the Vertex will save you. Instead, we
recommend buying a conventional storage water heater with a 9- or 12-
year warranty. In previous tests, we found that those models generally
had thicker insulation, bigger burners or larger heating elements, and
better corrosion-fighting metal rods called anodes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a 4 yrs payback on my tankless, its now 8 yrs old, so much for
CR talking the full story here of whats avalaible. Tanks scale inside
reducing efficency every year, does the Vertex have a cleanout cover,
the Cyclone does and every year I get about 1" of sediment. My old AO
was probably 30% efficent with 12-13" of scale. CR hasnt discussed
that, being biased to tank like you. My temps are even and I enjoy
Nine dollar gas bills in summer, I bet you cant get that, can you.
Sure you learn to live with quirks, but I save and pay less for Ng
than you ever will, isnt that what its about, saving money! Have you
lived with or tested a tankless, no you havnt, CR has taken a biased
stance against tankless, they " forget" to address tank scale,
tankless that dont need any electricity what so ever, tank reducing
efficency over the years, tankless coil life. So spend 2000 for a 83%
efficent vertex, I spent 450 for a 86% Bosch tankless that works just
fine and saves me more money that any tank ever will. It doesnt take
much brains, to figure out a tank keeping water hot 24x7x365, with an
uninsulated center chimney, can never match a on demand system for
efficency. 83% is the Vertex true efficency.

Dont let me discourage you from a Vertex, its the best tank option
you have today. but you just moan and bitch on something you havnt
tried and only post the negative. There alot of people out there with
tankless that are satisfied, and the best tankless can save 14% more
than a Vertex will ever get you. Unless you really clean the vertex
tank bottom that efficency rating is first year only, so much for CR
"unbiased reviews"

The Stucco site is not a help forum, it's an
*advertising* forum that invades real forums
(like "alt.home.repair", part of "usenet")
parasitically in order to generate free
advertising for itself, which continually
advances its search engine placement, thereby
increasing its own revenue through its click-
through advertising commissions.

So the first thing you should do is write them
an email and tell them to quit spamming.

Then try to find your way here through proper
channels. Please do a google search on "Usenet"
and post the regular way.



--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"PJM" wrote in
message
oups.com...
PJM had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...ce-377234-.htm
: