Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

I think you have your answer. Much like how much is this item worth? Sell
it on ebay, and find out.

But, since you can post here I reckon you are considering the job yourself,
and why not. The liner comes in 3' sections, you fasten them together and
drop them down.

Now, I've never done this --- so --- you don't necessarily have to take my
advice.

Here are the questions that you'd like to know if you do it yourself:

Is there something supporting the liner in the middle where you can't get
to?

Where does the liner have to end up - exactly - for you to install the
insert.

And of course the easy ones like what do you fasten the tubes with, do you
need to sweep chimney first, how do you cap it, etc.

Well, I wasn't much help. But, I didn't hurt much either, did I?

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

insured and bonded labor 50% of the cost
materials about 30%

I think my point is made.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit www.househomerepair.com

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron


Contact a CERTIFIED Chimney Sweep. Look on this industry site for a list in
your area: http://www.CSIA.org.


--
John Galbreath Jr.
Birmingham, Alabama
www.FireLogs.com

A good HVAC guy will install a flue liner.

s


"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

On Jan 23, 6:36*pm, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

Ask the Maid or your lawyer

On Jan 24, 4:14*am, ransley wrote:
On Jan 23, 6:36*pm, Aaron Fude wrote:





Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

Ask the Maid or your lawyer- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Not sure exactly what is wanted here. By saying these guys don't
want the job, are you implying that because you got a range of quotes
for $950 to $1800 that even the lowest is unreasonable? Do you know
what the cost of the actual liner is?

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.



*Those pesky contractors. We all know that it only takes ten minutes on TV
to install that stuff yet they still try and nail us with wages someone
could live on and their stupid overhead and cost of doing business. They
should take into consideration that there will be no warranty since you will
be furnishing the material.

There was another thread here about a kid who worked for $5.00 per hour.
See if you can get a hold of him. Another thought is to go to the street
corner in your town where the "Day laborers" hang out and pick up a few to
do the job.

In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.



*Those pesky contractors. We all know that it only takes ten minutes on TV
to install that stuff yet they still try and nail us with wages someone
could live on and their stupid overhead and cost of doing business. They
should take into consideration that there will be no warranty since you will
be furnishing the material.

There was another thread here about a kid who worked for $5.00 per hour.
See if you can get a hold of him. Another thought is to go to the street
corner in your town where the "Day laborers" hang out and pick up a few to
do the job.

But, the OP wants "insured" and "bonded" and "reliable." What this world
needs is a good set of day laborers with those attributes, willing to
work for a hearty bowl of Campbell's Chunky Soup.

On Jan 24, 3:37*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:14:29 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Jan 23, 6:36*pm, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

Ask the Maid or your lawyer

more **** from a ****head like ransley.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


This coming from the guy that tried to tell us over and over that hot
water doesn't evaporate more readily than cold water. Get your GED
yet, Bubba?

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.



*Those pesky contractors. We all know that it only takes ten minutes on
TV
to install that stuff yet they still try and nail us with wages someone
could live on and their stupid overhead and cost of doing business. They
should take into consideration that there will be no warranty since you
will
be furnishing the material.

There was another thread here about a kid who worked for $5.00 per hour.
See if you can get a hold of him. Another thought is to go to the street
corner in your town where the "Day laborers" hang out and pick up a few
to
do the job.

But, the OP wants "insured" and "bonded" and "reliable." What this world
needs is a good set of day laborers with those attributes, willing to
work for a hearty bowl of Campbell's Chunky Soup.

And then not abduct/kidnap your daughter into the hills of Utah or wherever
that was.

On Jan 24, 7:53*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:51:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:37*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:14:29 -0800 (PST), ransley

wrote:
On Jan 23, 6:36*pm, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several quotes
for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it to a fireplace
insert. I provide both. Each contractor described it as a piece of
cake: "We attach it at the top of the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop
it down and then connect it at the bottom." So how much is it going to
cost me? The quotes ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone guys. So,
obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else can reliably do
this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

Ask the Maid or your lawyer

more **** from a ****head like ransley.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This coming from the guy that tried to tell us over and over that hot
water doesn't evaporate more readily than cold water. *Get your GED
yet, Bubba?

and when you try what I told you, you just might begin to get a clue.
Its not going to evaporate any better with hot water. Hell, by the
time your so called hot water hits the distribution tray at the top of
your humidifier its already cooled down to nothing. *

So, you want to continue to curse the darkness instead of learning.
I think someone already provided you with what Aprilaire, widely
recognized as one of the best humidifier manufacturers has to say.
But, here it is from their Q/A section again for you:

"Should our humidifier be connected with hot or cold water?"

All of our flow-through units can be connected to hot or cold water.
Hot water increases the evaporative capacity of your humidifer,
provides more humidity to the home and offers more flexibility in the
operation of the humidifier. Some of our units can use hot air and
cold water. All humidifiers need some source of heat for evaporation
to take place whether it is hot water or hot air. We would recommend
that if our power units are installed on the return ductwork, that
they be connected to hot water, as this is their only heat source.
Heat pumps and large capacity installations need hot water. Heat pumps
are not hot enough for evaporation and some larger installations need
maximum capacity so they will need to use both hot air and hot water.
The Model 400 should be connected to cold water due to the wicking
Water Panel as it cannot be guaranteed that the water will stay hot
while waiting for the next heat call on the Water Panel. With any
drain-though Aprilaire Humidifier connected to hot water, the heat in
the water is used in the evaporation process and the water coming out
of the drain will be cold to the touch."


Now, I'm sure you'll smear Aprilaire with some choice cuss words
too. And probably claim they have some ulterior motive. But the
facts speak for themselves. Aprilaire clearly states that using hot
water, you get more evaporation.


Your statement that the hot water has already cooled down to nothing
by the time it hits the top of the distribution tray is quite
laughable. The water drops about 1/2 inch from where it enters to the
top of the tray. Anyone with a pulse should know that the water
isn't going to cool very much at all in that short distance and time.




Oh thats right.
You're one of those freaking mindless EE that thinks they know
everything about everything but cant even figure out why their furnace
doesnt work until one of those guys that needs a (how did you put it?)
"gets a GED", comes over and charges them $100 to change their dirty
filter. You probably put pieces of copper in your outdoor disconnect
for your air conditioner too thinking you'll save money. Heres a
quarter, trader. Go buy *a vowel.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh, Bubba, didn't you ever hear the line about not bringing a knife
to a gun fight? Unable to argue simple physics which you don't
understand, you're reduced to sneering in contempt at those that have
chosen to educate themselves.

Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 06:37:40 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 24, 7:53 pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:51:43 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:37 pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:14:29 -0800 (PST), ransley

wrote:
On Jan 23, 6:36 pm, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

Contractor quotes do not cease to amuse me. I have had several
quotes for installing a liner in my chimney and connecting it
to a fireplace insert. I provide both. Each contractor
described it as a piece of cake: "We attach it at the top of
the chimney, cap it, seal it, drop it down and then connect it
at the bottom." So how much is it going to cost me? The quotes
ranged from $950-$1800.

I've been calling professional chimney repairers and stone
guys. So, obviously, these guys don't want the job. Who else
can reliably do this kind of job? Obviously, I want someone
insured and bonded.

Many thanks in advance,

Aaron

Ask the Maid or your lawyer

more **** from a ****head like ransley.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This coming from the guy that tried to tell us over and over that
hot water doesn't evaporate more readily than cold water. Get your
GED yet, Bubba?

and when you try what I told you, you just might begin to get a
clue. Its not going to evaporate any better with hot water. Hell,
by the time your so called hot water hits the distribution tray at
the top of your humidifier its already cooled down to nothing.

So, you want to continue to curse the darkness instead of learning.
I think someone already provided you with what Aprilaire, widely
recognized as one of the best humidifier manufacturers has to say.
But, here it is from their Q/A section again for you:

"Should our humidifier be connected with hot or cold water?"

All of our flow-through units can be connected to hot or cold water.
Hot water increases the evaporative capacity of your humidifer,
provides more humidity to the home and offers more flexibility in the
operation of the humidifier. Some of our units can use hot air and
cold water. All humidifiers need some source of heat for evaporation
to take place whether it is hot water or hot air. We would recommend
that if our power units are installed on the return ductwork, that
they be connected to hot water, as this is their only heat source.
Heat pumps and large capacity installations need hot water. Heat
pumps are not hot enough for evaporation and some larger
installations need maximum capacity so they will need to use both
hot air and hot water. The Model 400 should be connected to cold
water due to the wicking Water Panel as it cannot be guaranteed that
the water will stay hot while waiting for the next heat call on the
Water Panel. With any drain-though Aprilaire Humidifier connected to
hot water, the heat in the water is used in the evaporation process
and the water coming out of the drain will be cold to the touch."


Now, I'm sure you'll smear Aprilaire with some choice cuss words
too. And probably claim they have some ulterior motive. But the
facts speak for themselves. Aprilaire clearly states that using hot
water, you get more evaporation.


Your statement that the hot water has already cooled down to nothing
by the time it hits the top of the distribution tray is quite
laughable. The water drops about 1/2 inch from where it enters to
the top of the tray. Anyone with a pulse should know that the water
isn't going to cool very much at all in that short distance and time.




Oh thats right.
You're one of those freaking mindless EE that thinks they know
everything about everything but cant even figure out why their
furnace doesnt work until one of those guys that needs a (how did
you put it?) "gets a GED", comes over and charges them $100 to
change their dirty filter. You probably put pieces of copper in
your outdoor disconnect for your air conditioner too thinking
you'll save money. Heres a quarter, trader. Go buy a vowel.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh, Bubba, didn't you ever hear the line about not bringing a knife
to a gun fight? Unable to argue simple physics which you don't
understand, you're reduced to sneering in contempt at those that have
chosen to educate themselves.

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for you
to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the cold.
Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the drain.
How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

On Jan 25, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:10:56 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:





Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

Are you finding words I didn't type? Yeah, I thought so.
Kind of a delusional fellow, aren't you?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Way ahead of you Bubba. I am going to run a little experiment to
measure the difference. Won't require 2 saddle valves either. I'm
just going to wait for a convenient time, then measure first as is
with hot water running into the humidifier. Then I'm going to
either turn off the water heater before a trip or otherwise deplete
the hot water by turning off the heater and then doing laundry,
running dishwasher, etc. I'll simply measure the flow rate of the
drain water with hot vs cold.

That's the benefit of being smart, you don't have to re-plumb
anything. Maybe you're right Bubba and Aprilaire and every other
poster and the laws of physics are wrong. But I'll bet not

On Jan 26, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:10:56 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me..
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

Are you finding words I didn't type? Yeah, I thought so.
Kind of a delusional fellow, aren't you?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way ahead of you Bubba. * *I am going to run a little experiment to
measure the difference. * Won't require 2 saddle valves either. * I'm
just going to wait for a convenient time, then measure first as is
with hot water running into the humidifier. * * Then I'm going to
either turn off the water heater before a trip or otherwise deplete
the hot water by turning off the heater and then doing laundry,
running dishwasher, etc. * I'll simply measure the flow rate of the
drain water with hot vs cold.

That's the benefit of being smart, you don't have to re-plumb
anything. *Maybe you're right Bubba and Aprilaire and every other
poster and the laws of physics are wrong. * But I'll bet not *

Thank You, That's all I ask. You will be suprised of your findings.
I did it and it was very very very little added moisture. Not even
worth mentioning and making the water heater run that much more. Id
rather run more cold water through it than fuel.

Just for the record, you're using fuel to heat the water either way.
If you use hot water, part of the heating is done by the water
heater. If you use cold water, all the heat is provided by the
furnace.



By the way, I really didnt re-plumb anything per say. A simple,
second, self piercing saddle valve and move the 1/4 line over to the
other line. Took about 2 mins and I have all the parts handy in my
service van.
That way Im not doing laundry or dishes with cold water.
Have a nice day.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jan 27, 9:08*am, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:44 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 26, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:10:56 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

Are you finding words I didn't type? Yeah, I thought so.
Kind of a delusional fellow, aren't you?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way ahead of you Bubba. * *I am going to run a little experiment to
measure the difference. * Won't require 2 saddle valves either. * I'm
just going to wait for a convenient time, then measure first as is
with hot water running into the humidifier. * * Then I'm going to
either turn off the water heater before a trip or otherwise deplete
the hot water by turning off the heater and then doing laundry,
running dishwasher, etc. * I'll simply measure the flow rate of the
drain water with hot vs cold.

That's the benefit of being smart, you don't have to re-plumb
anything. *Maybe you're right Bubba and Aprilaire and every other
poster and the laws of physics are wrong. * But I'll bet not *

Thank You, That's all I ask. You will be suprised of your findings.
I did it and it was very very very little added moisture. Not even
worth mentioning and making the water heater run that much more. Id
rather run more cold water through it than fuel.

Just for the record, you're using fuel to heat the water either way.
If you use hot water, part of the heating is done by the water
heater. * If you use cold water, all the heat is provided by the
furnace.

On the contrar.........no Im not. When I use cold water I do indeed
rely on the heat from the gas to evaporate the water across the
humidifier pad.
However, when Im using cold water, I use no more heat than if it were
hot water. My thermostat controls my furnace so it only uses the fuel
required to reach my temp setpoint.

And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going
into the humidifier, more of the heat from the furnace will go into
heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier.
There is no free lunch. The heat has to come from somewhere, either
the water heater or the furnace.





If there is not enough humidity,
my furnace still shuts off at temp setpoint.
If I use hot water my water heater is being used and I still use the
same amount of heat to reach my furnace temp set point.


No you don't.


Now you might start in about how the moisture in the home holds more
heat and thus would allow a lower temp setting in the house but I dont
see it that way. I set my temp at 70 no matter what humidity setting I
use.
Bubba




It has nothing to do with a lower thermostat setting. It has to do
with the fact that to get water to evaporate in a humdidifier, energy
has to come from somewhere. Either it all comes from the furnace
with cold water, or if you use the water heater to heat the water
first, part of it comes from the water heater.

wrote:

On the contrar.........no Im not. When I use cold water I do indeed
rely on the heat from the gas to evaporate the water across the
humidifier pad.
However, when Im using cold water, I use no more heat than if it were
hot water. My thermostat controls my furnace so it only uses the fuel
required to reach my temp setpoint.

And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going
into the humidifier, more of the heat from the furnace will go into
heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier.
There is no free lunch. The heat has to come from somewhere, either
the water heater or the furnace.



Give it up. Such is the tragedy of a government school.

Sad, really.

On Jan 27, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:28:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 27, 9:08*am, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:44 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 26, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:10:56 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

Are you finding words I didn't type? Yeah, I thought so.
Kind of a delusional fellow, aren't you?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way ahead of you Bubba. * *I am going to run a little experiment to
measure the difference. * Won't require 2 saddle valves either. * I'm
just going to wait for a convenient time, then measure first as is
with hot water running into the humidifier. * * Then I'm going to
either turn off the water heater before a trip or otherwise deplete
the hot water by turning off the heater and then doing laundry,
running dishwasher, etc. * I'll simply measure the flow rate of the
drain water with hot vs cold.

That's the benefit of being smart, you don't have to re-plumb
anything. *Maybe you're right Bubba and Aprilaire and every other
poster and the laws of physics are wrong. * But I'll bet not *

Thank You, That's all I ask. You will be suprised of your findings.
I did it and it was very very very little added moisture. Not even
worth mentioning and making the water heater run that much more. Id
rather run more cold water through it than fuel.

Just for the record, you're using fuel to heat the water either way.
If you use hot water, part of the heating is done by the water
heater. * If you use cold water, all the heat is provided by the
furnace.

On the contrar.........no Im not. When I use cold water I do indeed
rely on the heat from the gas to evaporate the water across the
humidifier pad.
However, when Im using cold water, I use no more heat than if it were
hot water. My thermostat controls my furnace so it only uses the fuel
required to reach my temp setpoint.

And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going
into the humidifier, *more of the heat from the furnace will go into
heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier.
There is no free lunch. *The heat has to come from somewhere, either
the water heater or the furnace.

You are so like a typical EE. Love to argue.

Cool and your excuse for arguing is?


Love to split hairs. What
you are talking about is miniscule, not even worth the mention.

Then why did you mention it? You're the one that claimed using hot
water from the water heater for the humidifier made a difference by
using more energy. I only pointed out that the water gets heated one
way or the other anyway, so it doesn't matter. Either by the water
heater or by the furnace, so energy wise, it's not worth the mention.





I will however tell you that running hot water for the humidifier
makes the water heater cycle on. Running my furnace for 10 more
seconds because of that cold water I use isnt going to change my bill.
Yours will.
Would you like to do another experiment on that one?
Bubba




You do the experiment. Go look at your gas meter and see if it the
little wheels turn for the last 10 seconds the furnace is on. I'm
betting that they do, which means that your bill is changing. But
then, in the strange universe you apparently live in, with it's own
laws of physics, who knows?

On Jan 28, 8:55*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:15:17 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 27, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:28:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 27, 9:08*am, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:36:44 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 26, 7:20*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 06:46:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:10:56 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Bubba wrote:

No trader, your problem is you believe all the **** you read. Again,
for the millionth time, TRY it yourself. You'll find that using hot
water does next to nothing in adding moisture. How hard is it for
you to hook up two saddle valves, one on the hot, the other on the
cold. Do some temp measurements and catch the excess water from the
drain. How freaking hard is that? Your stupid simplicity bores me.
Go read another bedtime story. I guess you really belive the three
little bears story was true too?
Bubba

I take that to mean you admit you were wrong and apologize for the
confusion.

Did I get that right?

Apparently, you have a difficult time with English comprehension too.
So sad for you.
Bubba

You needn't go on and on... One 'I'm sorry' (or words to that effect) was
sufficient. Heck, I don't even think your faux pas even merits an act of
contrition! Glad to have you back amongst the civil.

Are you finding words I didn't type? Yeah, I thought so.
Kind of a delusional fellow, aren't you?
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way ahead of you Bubba. * *I am going to run a little experiment to
measure the difference. * Won't require 2 saddle valves either. * I'm
just going to wait for a convenient time, then measure first as is
with hot water running into the humidifier. * * Then I'm going to
either turn off the water heater before a trip or otherwise deplete
the hot water by turning off the heater and then doing laundry,
running dishwasher, etc. * I'll simply measure the flow rate of the
drain water with hot vs cold.

That's the benefit of being smart, you don't have to re-plumb
anything. *Maybe you're right Bubba and Aprilaire and every other
poster and the laws of physics are wrong. * But I'll bet not *

Thank You, That's all I ask. You will be suprised of your findings.
I did it and it was very very very little added moisture. Not even
worth mentioning and making the water heater run that much more. Id
rather run more cold water through it than fuel.

Just for the record, you're using fuel to heat the water either way.
If you use hot water, part of the heating is done by the water
heater. * If you use cold water, all the heat is provided by the
furnace.

On the contrar.........no Im not. When I use cold water I do indeed
rely on the heat from the gas to evaporate the water across the
humidifier pad.
However, when Im using cold water, I use no more heat than if it were
hot water. My thermostat controls my furnace so it only uses the fuel
required to reach my temp setpoint.

And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going
into the humidifier, *more of the heat from the furnace will go into
heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier.
There is no free lunch. *The heat has to come from somewhere, either
the water heater or the furnace.

You are so like a typical EE. Love to argue.

Cool and your excuse for arguing is?

Love to split hairs. What
you are talking about is miniscule, not even worth the mention.

Then why did you mention it? *

Why? Because you seem to be having a bit of trouble grasping the
concept of reality.

You're the one that claimed using hot
water from the water heater for the humidifier made a difference by
using more energy. *I only pointed out that the water gets heated one
way or the other anyway, so it doesn't matter. * *Either by the water
heater or by the furnace, so energy wise, it's not worth the mention.

Because it DOES matter you dolt. Its not at all to this extreme but


Gee, can't you make up your mind? First YOU're the one who first
brought this up. Then a couple posts later, you say it's not worth
mentioning. Now, you're back to saying it does matter.





I'll see if you can grasp this concept.
You want to heat two ounces of water in a cup. You zap it with a mini
torch like one used to solder pipes. 30 seconds later, the water is
warm. How much did that cost in fuel? Again, nothing worth mentioning.
Now, take that same cup and put it behind the jet engine of a 747 and
run it for 30 seconds. Care to take a guess at what that just cost
you?
Certain things can be done different ways with different results. Even
an uncertified crazy EE could seem to figure that out.





I will however tell you that running hot water for the humidifier
makes the water heater cycle on. Running my furnace for 10 more
seconds because of that cold water I use isnt going to change my bill.
Yours will.
Would you like to do another experiment on that one?
Bubba

You do the experiment. * Go look at your gas meter and see if it the
little wheels turn for the last 10 seconds the furnace is on. * I'm
betting that they do, which means that your bill is changing. * *But
then, in the strange universe you apparently live in, with it's own
laws of physics, who knows?

Ok, my meter spins for 10 more seconds. What does your gas or electric
water heater do when it comes on? Have you ever seen it run for only
10 seconds then shut off?


You picked the arbitrary time of 10 extra seconds of furnace burner
run time if you use cold water in the humidifier and then said it will
not effect your gas bill. It does. Even an extra 10 seconds of
furnace run time each cycle adds up and will show up in your bill. If
the furnace comes on only once an hour, that equates to 2 hours of
extra burner time a month. So, once again, you live in a very
strange universe where that usage would not show up in your gas bill
or else and more likely, you can't do basic math before making silly
claims.

And then you try to cloud the whole thing by pointing to the fact that
when a water heater comes on, it will stay on for long enough to bring
the tank back up to temperature. So what? That's how they operate.
It says zippo about the efficiency of the water heater compared to the
furnace.

Finally, a gas water heater and a gas furnace are fairly close in
efficiency. That is not the case with your conjurred up example of
heating a cup of water with either a mini-torch or a jet engine. In
that case, of course there would be a huge difference, which I would
expect to be at least a couple orders of magnitude. That is not the
case in comparing a gas water heater and a gas furnace in a home,
which are going to be in the same ballpark.

So, whether using cold water in a humidifier results in the furnace
burner staying on 10 secs longer compared to using hot water is about
right or not, I don't know and neither do you. But the heat put
into the water by the water heater does not disappear. That heat
goes into the humidiifer, into the furnace, into the air, and into the
house. So, at the end of the day, whether you use hot water or cold
in the humidifier is going to have a negligible effect on your energy
usage. I'd say the effect is so small that it's not worth
mentioning. Hmm, that is what YOU said a few posts back too.

On Jan 29, 1:35*pm, Bubba wrote:
You're the one that claimed using hot
water from the water heater for the humidifier made a difference by
using more energy. *I only pointed out that the water gets heated one
way or the other anyway, so it doesn't matter. * *Either by the water
heater or by the furnace, so energy wise, it's not worth the mention.

Because it DOES matter you dolt. Its not at all to this extreme but

Gee, can't you make up your mind? * First YOU're the one who first
brought this up. * Then a couple posts later, you say it's not worth
mentioning. * *Now, you're back to saying it does matter.

I'll see if you can grasp this concept.
You want to heat two ounces of water in a cup. You zap it with a mini
torch like one used to solder pipes. 30 seconds later, the water is
warm. How much did that cost in fuel? Again, nothing worth mentioning.
Now, take that same cup and put it behind the jet engine of a 747 and
run it for 30 seconds. Care to take a guess at what that just cost
you?
Certain things can be done different ways with different results. Even
an uncertified crazy EE could seem to figure that out.

I will however tell you that running hot water for the humidifier
makes the water heater cycle on. Running my furnace for 10 more
seconds because of that cold water I use isnt going to change my bill.
Yours will.
Would you like to do another experiment on that one?
Bubba

You do the experiment. * Go look at your gas meter and see if it the
little wheels turn for the last 10 seconds the furnace is on. * I'm
betting that they do, which means that your bill is changing. * *But
then, in the strange universe you apparently live in, with it's own
laws of physics, who knows?

Ok, my meter spins for 10 more seconds. What does your gas or electric
water heater do when it comes on? Have you ever seen it run for only
10 seconds then shut off?

You picked the arbitrary time of 10 extra seconds of furnace burner
run time if you use cold water in the humidifier and then said it will
not effect your gas bill. * It does. * Even an extra 10 seconds of
furnace run time each cycle adds up and will show up in your bill. *If
the furnace comes on only once an hour, that equates to 2 hours of
extra burner time a month. * So, once again, you live in a very
strange universe where that usage would not show up in your gas bill
or else and more likely, you can't do basic math before making silly
claims.

and during that 2hrs each month how much more do you thing that water
heater is going to crank on?


It's going to use about the same amount of energy to heat the water
whether it's done in the water heater or the gas furnace. They are
in the same ball park regarding energy efficiency. At least you
finally seem to agree that a furnace running an extra 10 secs each
cycle does show up in your gas bill.



A lot more that that furnace does for just the sole purpose of adding
moisture to a home.

So, says you, in your world of strange physics. Perhaps you can
explain why putting energy into water in a water heater is drastically
different than the energy going in via the gas furnace.


Its amazing how you cant seem to get a grip on the simplest of things.
Always trying to analyze something down to a knat ass for some unknown
reason.

It's amazing how so much of what you know to be true is just plain
wrong.




And then you try to cloud the whole thing by pointing to the fact that
when a water heater comes on, it will stay on for long enough to bring
the tank back up to temperature. * So what? *That's how they operate..
It says zippo about the efficiency of the water heater compared to the
furnace.

Wrong. In case you havent noticed, if a water heater is satisfied, it
will usually stay off all day when homeowners are at work. Thats how
well they hold their heat.


Sure, which is further testimonial to the fact that they are in fact
efficient at heating water. I know that. You're the one claiming
that there is a huge energy inefficiency in heating water via a water
heater.


Now go and draw some water from it, even a small amount and it comes
back on until the temp is satisfied again.


Depends on what you call a small amount. It comes on when the temp
has dropped enough to make it go on. That could be many gallons of
water, depending on when the water heater last shut off and the
incoming water temp. But again, so what? First you say that water
heaters are so well insulated, they can go all day without coming
on. Then, you claim if a few gallons of water causes the water
heater to cycle on, that somehow it's hugely inefficient. Once the
tank is brought up to temp, what do you think happens? The heat is
just instantly lost? More strange physics?



When a furnace is maintaining the temp in the home its already
running. Why waste the energy of the water heater when the furnace
will do it. Even with the few extra seconds it will run to give the
house some moisture?

One more time. With cold water, the furnace is providing all the
heat to evaporate the water. So, the furnace will burn more gas
before it raises the house temp and turns off. The amount of extra
gas it will burn is roughly the amount of gas the water heater would
burn if you used hot water going into the humidifier instead of
cold. In other words, there is no free lunch, energy doesn't
magically appear or disappear. The energy absorbed heating the water
in the water heater is transferred into the air in the furnace.
Capiche?




Finally, a gas water heater and a gas furnace are fairly close in
efficiency. *That is not the case with your conjurred up example of
heating a cup of water with either a mini-torch or a jet engine. *In
that case, of course there would be a huge difference, which I would
expect to be at least a couple orders of magnitude. * *That is not the
case in comparing a gas water heater and a gas furnace in a home,
which are going to be in the same ballpark

Ahh, at least you finally caught on to an example, HOWEVER, you are
incorrect in the case of the furnace/water heater efficiencys being
close. Most furnaces now are 95% efficient and condense flue gasses
into water vapor. Most water heaters (gas) still use a metal vent
chimney that stays open 24/7 thus is quite different in efficiency.
(although that clown ransley will spew all kind of silly **** like if
he has a clue about it)

Once again, mixing apples and oranges. First, most furnaces
currently installed in the US today are not 95% efficient. Here in
new construction in NJ you typically don't see above 93%. So, how
could the installed base of furnaces be 95%? More importantly, if
you want to compare a high efficiency gas furnace, then compare it to
a high efficiency gas water heater. You must not get out much,
because they don't have a flue that stays open 24/7. Likewise, if you
want to compare an old 80% efficient gas furnace, then compare it to a
typical old gas waer heater. Compared correctly, they are in the
same ballpark in efficiency. Not like your silly example of heating
a cup of water with either a torch or a jet engine.


Im suprised a pencil pusher like yourself doesnt know these things.
I see them everyday. Thats what I do.



Thank God you aren't doing what you do anywhere near me.

Bubba wrote:

and when you try what I told you, you just might begin to get a clue.
Its not going to evaporate any better with hot water. Hell, by the
time your so called hot water hits the distribution tray at the top of
your humidifier its already cooled down to nothing. Oh thats right.
You're one of those freaking mindless EE that thinks they know
everything about everything but cant even figure out why their furnace
doesnt work until one of those guys that needs a (how did you put it?)
"gets a GED", comes over and charges them $100 to change their dirty
filter. You probably put pieces of copper in your outdoor disconnect
for your air conditioner too thinking you'll save money. Heres a
quarter, trader. Go buy a vowel.
Bubba

Has somewhat better heat capacity curve for water than when I last
chimed in but it tells the point that using hot water is nothing
compared to energy to evaporate water:

http://www.av8n.com/physics/phase-transition-heat.htm

On Jan 29, 7:44*pm, Frank wrote:
Bubba wrote:
and when you try what I told you, you just might begin to get a clue.
Its not going to evaporate any better with hot water. Hell, by the
time your so called hot water hits the distribution tray at the top of
your humidifier its already cooled down to nothing. *Oh thats right.
You're one of those freaking mindless EE that thinks they know
everything about everything but cant even figure out why their furnace
doesnt work until one of those guys that needs a (how did you put it?)
"gets a GED", comes over and charges them $100 to change their dirty
filter. You probably put pieces of copper in your outdoor disconnect
for your air conditioner too thinking you'll save money. Heres a
quarter, trader. Go buy *a vowel.
Bubba

Has somewhat better heat capacity curve for water than when I last
chimed in but it tells the point that using hot water is nothing
compared to energy to evaporate water:

http://www.av8n.com/physics/phase-transition-heat.htm


That curve is showing the energy it takes to change water into
steam. For water to evaporate, it does not have to boil, or even
come close to boiling. Evaporation occurs as SOME of the water
molecules near the surface of a liquid that have slightly more energy
manage to break away from the surface tension of the water and escape
into the air. Hence, it is directly driven by the temperature of the
liquid. Take a cup of room temp water outside on a cold day and you
see nothing. Even though some of it is evaporating, it's not enough
to see. Take a cup of 130 deg water outside and you see vapor
escaping, even though the water is nowhere near 212. Surely that
simple experiment is enough to show that the difference between hot
and cold water does make a substantial difference in the rate of
evaporation. Capiche?