My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC?

Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch on
the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you attach
an extension cord when necessary.

--
bud--

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:57:17 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC?

Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch on
the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you attach
an extension cord when necessary.

Any reason it needs to be that complicated? No need for a switch at
all, just put a regular plug on the wires going to the furnace and
move it to either a regular receptacle or an extension cords.
--
10 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Is this kosher with NEC?
Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch on
the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you attach
an extension cord when necessary.

Any reason it needs to be that complicated? No need for a switch at
all, just put a regular plug on the wires going to the furnace and
move it to either a regular receptacle or an extension cords.



Use a single outlet, not a duplex. And a nice armored plug. Keep everything short and neat.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

Is this kosher with NEC?
Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch
on the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you
attach an extension cord when necessary.

Any reason it needs to be that complicated? No need for a switch at
all, just put a regular plug on the wires going to the furnace and
move it to either a regular receptacle or an extension cords.



Use a single outlet, not a duplex. And a nice armored plug. Keep
everything short and neat.

Bob


And check local codes. It should be perfectly safe, but code is not
always logical, and just because it is safe does not mean it is legal.
That naturally doesn't stop a lot of people, but I like to keep things
up to code whenever possible, reduces the chance of liability.

James Sweet wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

Is this kosher with NEC?
Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch
on the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you
attach an extension cord when necessary.

Any reason it needs to be that complicated? No need for a switch at
all, just put a regular plug on the wires going to the furnace and
move it to either a regular receptacle or an extension cords.



Use a single outlet, not a duplex. And a nice armored plug. Keep
everything short and neat.

Bob


And check local codes. It should be perfectly safe, but code is not
always logical, and just because it is safe does not mean it is legal.
That naturally doesn't stop a lot of people, but I like to keep things
up to code whenever possible, reduces the chance of liability.


I think the key is make it such a neat and tidy and well-thought-out installation that the
inspector will *want* to pass it. He has great latitude to overlook minor technical
violations if they are safe and for a good reason. [I think you could make an argument
that cord-and-plug is allowed (barely) by section 400-7(a)(6) "connection of stationary
equipment to facilitate their frequent interchange"]

OTOH, if your work is sloppy, it's not going to pass muster even if you do things right
(don't ask me how I learned that one.)

Bob

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:57:17 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC?
Don't think so.

The suggestion I have seen is put a double pole double throw switch on
the H and N wires and switch them to a male socket to which you attach
an extension cord when necessary.

Any reason it needs to be that complicated? No need for a switch at
all, just put a regular plug on the wires going to the furnace and
move it to either a regular receptacle or an extension cords.

A switch and an "inlet" isn't much more complicated.

The NEC limits the use of cords to connect equipment (422.16 is
relevant). Cord and plug connection is permitted for maintenance and
repair or frequent interchange. (Specifically alloweded are garbage
disposers, range hoods and wall mounted ovens.) If boilers and furnaces
were allowed to be cord and plug connected you would probably have
receptacles provided, and boilers and furnaces would come with cords the
HVAC installer would plug-in. (Would there be an electrical inspection?
If there was no furnace circuit outlet would someone connect to a
general use outlet with an extension cord?) IMHO hard wired is more
reliable for an essential function.

As I said in another post "aside from the code, the plan sounds
practical and safe."

--
bud--

wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

I'd tap into the works at the circuit breaker box. No "wiring," just some
plugs and boxes.

wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

This is the transfer switch I use with my Honda EU2000i:

http://www.generators.us.com/TF151W-...er-Switch.html

Reliance Controls 15 amp TF151W Easy/Tran TF Furnace Transfer Switch.
It's sold by lots of places.

There is also a 20 amp version:

http://www.generators.us.com/TF201W-...er-Switch.html

Reliance Controls 20 amp TF201W Easy/Tran TF Furnace Transfer Switch

"Erma1ina" wrote in message
...
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

This is the transfer switch I use with my Honda EU2000i:

http://www.generators.us.com/TF151W-...er-Switch.html

Reliance Controls 15 amp TF151W Easy/Tran TF Furnace Transfer Switch.
It's sold by lots of places.

There is also a 20 amp version:

http://www.generators.us.com/TF201W-...er-Switch.html

Reliance Controls 20 amp TF201W Easy/Tran TF Furnace Transfer Switch



*This is a much better solution. You can just wire it into your circuit
breaker panel onto the furnace circuit.

wrote in message
...
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?



A better way is using a flanged inlet such as this:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...US&item=335 8
and the double pole double throw switch that Bud suggested:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...US&item=296 7

The flanged inlets are also available in twistlock if you prefer. Mount the
flanged inlet in a box right on the furnace and change your existing shut
off switch to the double throw.

On Dec 12, 11:49*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message

...





My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

A better way is using a flanged inlet such as this:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...
and the double pole double throw switch that Bud suggested:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...

The flanged inlets are also available in twistlock if you prefer. *Mount the
flanged inlet in a box right on the furnace and change your existing shut
off switch to the double throw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most importantly..
do not even THINK of running the generator in the basement or near an
open window...or
anyplace the CO can get sucked into the furnace.

How will you route the cable in but keep the CO out?

Mark

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:36:31 -0800 (PST), Mark1
wrote:

On Dec 12, 11:49Â*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message

...





My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

A better way is using a flanged inlet such as this:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...
and the double pole double throw switch that Bud suggested:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...

The flanged inlets are also available in twistlock if you prefer. Â*Mount the
flanged inlet in a box right on the furnace and change your existing shut
off switch to the double throw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most importantly..
do not even THINK of running the generator in the basement or near an
open window...or
anyplace the CO can get sucked into the furnace.

How will you route the cable in but keep the CO out?

Mark

You make the modification you proposed at the panel - if the panel is
in the garage, and run the genny on the driveway or out back of the
garage.

Mark1 wrote:
On Dec 12, 11:49 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message

...





My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.
If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.
What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.
Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?
A better way is using a flanged inlet such as this:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...
and the double pole double throw switch that Bud suggested:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...

The flanged inlets are also available in twistlock if you prefer. Mount the
flanged inlet in a box right on the furnace and change your existing shut
off switch to the double throw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most importantly..
do not even THINK of running the generator in the basement or near an
open window...or
anyplace the CO can get sucked into the furnace.

How will you route the cable in but keep the CO out?

Mark




That part is easy, the generator should be outside, period. Run the cord
in under a door, through a window, and use a strip of tape to seal the
rest of the gap from drafts, through a pet door, etc.

The furnace won't suck in CO, the air it sucks comes from the return duct.

Mark1 wrote:

On Dec 12, 11:49 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message

...





My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

A better way is using a flanged inlet such as this:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...
and the double pole double throw switch that Bud suggested:http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCC...ex=10021:22372...

The flanged inlets are also available in twistlock if you prefer. Mount the
flanged inlet in a box right on the furnace and change your existing shut
off switch to the double throw.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

most importantly..
do not even THINK of running the generator in the basement or near an
open window...or
anyplace the CO can get sucked into the furnace.

How will you route the cable in but keep the CO out?

Mark

Here's what I do:

1. Remove the spline in order to open up a small (1 inch is adequate)
corner of the screen on a window ~12 ft. from the EU2000i generator
which sits outside, on a deck, with exhaust pointing into open air.

2. Open the storm window and the inner window to run the two 12 gauge
extension cords (one 50 ft., one 75 ft.) from the generator inside.

3. Shut the storm window so it rests on the cords and put foam backer
rod under the small remaining open space to "seal" it.

4. Do the same with the inner window.

5. Run the 75 ft. extension cord (with an added 1 ft. 12 gauge 3-outlet
extension) upstairs for refrigerator-freezer, radio.

6. Run the 50 ft. extension cord (with an added 1 ft. 12 gauge 3-outlet
extension) to the basement for furnace transfer switch, small chest
freezer, sump pump.

7. Use 25 ft. 12 gauge extension cords, where necessary (for example, to
the furnace transfer switch), to run power from the 3-outlet extensions
to whatever I want to power up in the basement. So nothing is farther
than 76 ft. of 12 gauge extension cord from the generator.

8. Keep battery-operated CO detector in room with window through which
the extension cords from the generator are run. So far ZERO CO level has
been measured in 80 hrs (~20 episodes) of running.

On Dec 12, 9:46*am, wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

Is that the 1000w honda, without knowing how big the blower is just
remember on startup a blower motor surge will pull more, it might be
all the unit can take. Have your extension cord so the gen is far away
from the house, I got Co in mine being 10 ft away.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:51:04 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote:

On Dec 12, 9:46Â*am, wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

Is that the 1000w honda, without knowing how big the blower is just
remember on startup a blower motor surge will pull more, it might be
all the unit can take. Have your extension cord so the gen is far away
from the house, I got Co in mine being 10 ft away.


DC blower motor solves that problem - soft start.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:46:12 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

JUst make sure you have a non-corroded flashlight and batteries,
because you're going to be finishing this job when there is no
electricity. At least I would be.

I've found that alkaline batteries and even carbon-zinc flashlight
batteries last for years when I don't use them, or only use them when
I'm actually looking at something. But 2 or 3 years stretches into 5
years pretty easily. And I don't think my flashlight batteries have
ever lasted longer than 5 or 6 years.

I keep my batteries, film, long candles, drugs, and paint dispensers**
in my fridge. **They have those paint brushes and rollers that suck
the paint into the handle. I used to clean every night, but I found I
could just put the thing in the refrigerator and it was good the next
day, even several days later.

mm wrote:
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:46:12 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

JUst make sure you have a non-corroded flashlight and batteries,
because you're going to be finishing this job when there is no
electricity. At least I would be.

I've found that alkaline batteries and even carbon-zinc flashlight
batteries last for years when I don't use them, or only use them when
I'm actually looking at something. But 2 or 3 years stretches into 5
years pretty easily. And I don't think my flashlight batteries have
ever lasted longer than 5 or 6 years.

I keep my batteries, film, long candles, drugs, and paint dispensers**
in my fridge. **They have those paint brushes and rollers that suck
the paint into the handle. I used to clean every night, but I found I
could just put the thing in the refrigerator and it was good the next
day, even several days later.


I've sure had a lot of alkaline batteries leak, seems worse in the last
several years. Have had several Maglites ruined by leaks, if you can get
the batteries out the manufacture will usually pay for the damaged item.
I'm hoping the eneloop rechargeables I use now will hold up better.
Lithium is a good option for emergency flashlights too, they rarely leak.

About 99+% of gas furnaces in my area , with the exception of
manufacuted houses aka mobile homes, are hooked up with a regular cord
and receptacle. Of course they are located either in the attic or a
closet in the house or garage--basements are VERY rare here. Don't know
about code, but that's the way it is done here and has been that way for
decades. Larry

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:01:25 -0800, James Sweet
wrote:


I've found that alkaline batteries and even carbon-zinc flashlight
batteries last for years when I don't use them, or only use them when
I'm actually looking at something. But 2 or 3 years stretches into 5
years pretty easily. And I don't think my flashlight batteries have
ever lasted longer than 5 or 6 years.

I keep my batteries, film, long candles, drugs, and paint dispensers**
in my fridge. **They have those paint brushes and rollers that suck
the paint into the handle. I used to clean every night, but I found I
could just put the thing in the refrigerator and it was good the next
day, even several days later.


I've sure had a lot of alkaline batteries leak, seems worse in the last
several years.

I try to avoid things that use batteries, but I still have a bunch,
and I've only had one or two alkalines leak, both in the same device
at the same time. Carbon-zinc definitely leaked more often, but with
flashlights I figured if I left the light on, I'd only waste cheaper
batteries.

I've bought foreign batteries at hamfests, one batch so cheap they
leaked within weeks of being put in something (without damage,
somehow) so I threw them all away. (They were in the fridge until I
used them. One gave hints of leaking, iirc, while still in the
fridge, but theese were verrrry cheap.)

In another situation at a hamfest, the guy next to me noticed how
light the "alkaline" batteries were, and he was right, they were too
light to be alkaline.

Finally, in the past year, I bought some "Duracell"s at a price that
seemed too low, and eventually noticed that the small circle that's
supposed to have an R or TM inside had nothing but a dot inside.
Maybe it t also didn't say "alkaline", which is what makes it a
Duracell as opposed to some other type battery.

Have had several Maglites ruined by leaks, if you can get
the batteries out the manufacture will usually pay for the damaged item.

You have to get the batteries out? I don't know but isn't it more
convincing when the batteries are stuck inside?

IIUC what it says on the batteries, they will pay for a flashlight of
something of similar cost if flashlight batteries (carbon-zinc) leak,
and they'll pay more money for something electronic if alkaline leak.
And there are probably other rules for other kinds of batteries.

Makes sense to me.

I'm hoping the eneloop rechargeables I use now will hold up better.

I'm finally reading the manual for my fancy camera, and it gives
several reasons why rechargeables won't have power as long as one
would want. Not using them for a long time was one. (I can find the
list if you want.) Maybe it's not true and they just don't want
people complaining to them, the camera company, when it probably is
either normal or a battery problem.

Lithium is a good option for emergency flashlights too, they rarely leak.

Finally, in the past year, I bought some "Duracell"s at a price that
seemed too low, and eventually noticed that the small circle that's
supposed to have an R or TM inside had nothing but a dot inside.
Maybe it t also didn't say "alkaline", which is what makes it a
Duracell as opposed to some other type battery.


I've seen pics of those, but so far mine have been real Duracells, and
I've had them leak too.



You have to get the batteries out? I don't know but isn't it more
convincing when the batteries are stuck inside?


Well if you can't get them out, you have to remember what brand they
were to find out where to send them. Sometimes you can tell, sometimes
it is not obvious.


I'm finally reading the manual for my fancy camera, and it gives
several reasons why rechargeables won't have power as long as one
would want. Not using them for a long time was one. (I can find the
list if you want.) Maybe it's not true and they just don't want
people complaining to them, the camera company, when it probably is
either normal or a battery problem.


Rechargeable batteries have a lower nominal voltage than alkalines, for
some things this is a problem, for others it is not, and more things
these days are made with rechargeable batteries in mind. In my own
experience, they last longer in things like cameras, but it depends on
the nature of the load. The big advantage is when they go dead, you pop
them in the charger and use them again over and over, I'd be perfectly
willing to sacrifice some run time for that. Environmentally better than
tossing out piles of dead alkalines as well.

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:05:21 -0800, James Sweet
wrote:


You have to get the batteries out? I don't know but isn't it more
convincing when the batteries are stuck inside?


Well if you can't get them out, you have to remember what brand they
were to find out where to send them. Sometimes you can tell, sometimes
it is not obvious.

Oh, yeah. You're right.

They should mark the brand on the ends too. It's probably a sleezy
trick by the makers to avoid paying out when they leak.

I'm finally reading the manual for my fancy camera, and it gives
several reasons why rechargeables won't have power as long as one
would want. Not using them for a long time was one. (I can find the
list if you want.) Maybe it's not true and they just don't want
people complaining to them, the camera company, when it probably is
either normal or a battery problem.


Rechargeable batteries have a lower nominal voltage than alkalines, for
some things this is a problem, for others it is not, and more things
these days are made with rechargeable batteries in mind. In my own
experience, they last longer in things like cameras, but it depends on
the nature of the load. The big advantage is when they go dead, you pop
them in the charger and use them again over and over, I'd be perfectly
willing to sacrifice some run time for that. Environmentally better than
tossing out piles of dead alkalines as well.

Yeah, the AA are 1.2 volts and the batteries-in-camera plug-in charger
(not included) is supposed to be 5 volts for 4 of them. If I
eventually try to use these in a penlight, I don't suppose they will
work. Not enough voltage.

I don't remember how dead they were when I stopped using the camera
last Jan. or Feb, but on election day, they were totally dead. They
seemed to charge up fine but I haven't tried to use them or to measure
their voltage.

The other set, in the fridge since last January, were still 1.24 or
1.26 volts when I took them out last week.

mm wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:46:12 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

JUst make sure you have a non-corroded flashlight and batteries,
because you're going to be finishing this job when there is no
electricity. At least I would be.

Unless he had a generator and a trouble light.g

Flashlights are still handy- but I was glad there was a plug in
shoplight right by my panel when I jury rigged mine up last Saturday.
Just got power back last night. Felt kinda weird working in the
entrance panel box with 120 light from the generator.

Another caution that I might have skimmed over as I've read this
thread--- [and why the double pole double throw switch is a good
idea. Make damn sure you don't leave any connection back to the
grid. Not only will it fry your generator if the power comes back-
it creates a dangerous situation for the guys working on the lines.

Jim

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

You could probably do that, but you seem to be saying you don't have a
transfer switch, making such an arrangement against code because you
don't mention anything about preventing backfeeds. What you might use
safely would be a double pole, triple throw (off in center) switch for
break-before-make connections.
I think if you check with your local code enforcement office though
you will find that only a transfer switch and probably a separate
outdoor disconnect point is acceptable.

If you already have a transfer switch and the only problem is exactly
as stated, then a switch as described would suffice nicely. They're
also fairly common switches, especially if you live around any farmland.
I picked one up from Agway in fact. Mostly you just need to be sure the
switch goes through an open ckit on the way from one connection to the
other. Most switches are of the make before break types, meaning they
temporarily connect BOTH sources for an instant as the switch is thrown.
Middle-off is an easy way to avoid that. Besides, you also need a
disconnect method, and the middle off provides that, too.

HTH

Twayne

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:21:44 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

You could probably do that, but you seem to be saying you don't have a
transfer switch, making such an arrangement against code because you
don't mention anything about preventing backfeeds.


Backfeeds?

How the heck do you get a backfeed when you unplug something from one
power supply and plug it into another one?
Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE.

What he has is a double pole, Infinite throw,break before make,
manually operated switch. Can't get better backfeed protection than
that.


What you might use
safely would be a double pole, triple throw (off in center) switch for
break-before-make connections.
I think if you check with your local code enforcement office though
you will find that only a transfer switch and probably a separate
outdoor disconnect point is acceptable.

If you already have a transfer switch and the only problem is exactly
as stated, then a switch as described would suffice nicely. They're
also fairly common switches, especially if you live around any farmland.
I picked one up from Agway in fact. Mostly you just need to be sure the
switch goes through an open ckit on the way from one connection to the
other. Most switches are of the make before break types, meaning they
temporarily connect BOTH sources for an instant as the switch is thrown.
Middle-off is an easy way to avoid that. Besides, you also need a
disconnect method, and the middle off provides that, too.

HTH

Twayne

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:21:44 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run
it off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is
the small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably
just jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension
cord. I'd like something a little more... sophisticated, something
that is ready on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box
with an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent
to the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

You could probably do that, but you seem to be saying you don't have
a transfer switch, making such an arrangement against code because
you don't mention anything about preventing backfeeds.


Backfeeds?

How the heck do you get a backfeed when you unplug something from one
power supply and plug it into another one?
Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE.

Impossible isn't what it's about. POSSIBLE is what it's about, and to
use a generator, you need a transfer switch. What I think I left out is
that his local code enforcement office is going to have the final word
on the subject; that is where he has to check. If they allow it, it's
legal. If not, it's not. It's easy to call & ask rather than put up
with rhetoric in places like this. He's going to need a transfer switch
that guarantees never backfeeding; nothing guarantess he won't hook it
up in a manner that could backfeed, whether he intended to or not.
Plus, he's not the only soul on earth that might use the generator -
they don't accept taht as an arguement. Only positive situations are
allowed, not promises.


What he has is a double pole, Infinite throw,break before make,
manually operated switch. Can't get better backfeed protection than
that.


What you might use
safely would be a double pole, triple throw (off in center) switch
for break-before-make connections.
I think if you check with your local code enforcement office though
you will find that only a transfer switch and probably a separate
outdoor disconnect point is acceptable.

If you already have a transfer switch and the only problem is
exactly as stated, then a switch as described would suffice nicely.
They're also fairly common switches, especially if you live around
any farmland. I picked one up from Agway in fact. Mostly you just
need to be sure the switch goes through an open ckit on the way from
one connection to the other. Most switches are of the make before
break types, meaning they temporarily connect BOTH sources for an
instant as the switch is thrown. Middle-off is an easy way to avoid
that. Besides, you also need a disconnect method, and the middle
off provides that, too.

HTH

Twayne

wrote in message
I have been in discussions with inspectors about this and the only
real NEC violation with a cord and plug connected furnace motor is the
manufacturer's installation instructions don't say you can do it.
On the other hand I have never seen instructions that specifically
said you couldn't. If you said you were doing this to make the blower
easier to service, THAT is legal.

Technicality, but the motor wiring is not touched, the main wiring (control)
box is.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:22:13 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
I have been in discussions with inspectors about this and the only
real NEC violation with a cord and plug connected furnace motor is the
manufacturer's installation instructions don't say you can do it.
On the other hand I have never seen instructions that specifically
said you couldn't. If you said you were doing this to make the blower
easier to service, THAT is legal.

Technicality, but the motor wiring is not touched, the main wiring (control)
box is.

The code requires a manual disconnect within X feet of the furnace.
This is USAUALLY assumed to be a switch.
A plug serves the same function and is easier to tie down (disable for
service)

wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:31:10 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:21:44 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?
You could probably do that, but you seem to be saying you don't have a
transfer switch, making such an arrangement against code because you
don't mention anything about preventing backfeeds.

Backfeeds?

How the heck do you get a backfeed when you unplug something from one
power supply and plug it into another one?
Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE.

What he has is a double pole, Infinite throw,break before make,
manually operated switch. Can't get better backfeed protection than
that.


What you might use
safely would be a double pole, triple throw (off in center) switch for
break-before-make connections.
I think if you check with your local code enforcement office though
you will find that only a transfer switch and probably a separate
outdoor disconnect point is acceptable.

If you already have a transfer switch and the only problem is exactly
as stated, then a switch as described would suffice nicely. They're
also fairly common switches, especially if you live around any farmland.
I picked one up from Agway in fact. Mostly you just need to be sure the
switch goes through an open ckit on the way from one connection to the
other. Most switches are of the make before break types, meaning they
temporarily connect BOTH sources for an instant as the switch is thrown.
Middle-off is an easy way to avoid that. Besides, you also need a
disconnect method, and the middle off provides that, too.

HTH

Twayne


I have been in discussions with inspectors about this and the only
real NEC violation with a cord and plug connected furnace motor is the
manufacturer's installation instructions don't say you can do it.
On the other hand I have never seen instructions that specifically
said you couldn't. If you said you were doing this to make the blower
easier to service, THAT is legal.

Having a plug-and cord connected blower motor for servicing should be
code compliant. I don't see how cord and plug connecting a fixed in
place furnace (the OP's plan) is permitted.

Considering the other alternatives I do not see this as the most
unsafe option. Keep the pigtail with the cord and plug as short as
possible to minimize the damage potential, use a good "hard service"
cord with a proper cord grip on the blower end and a molded plug and
"rock on" IMHO.

Aside from the code, the plan sounds practical and safe.

--
bud--

My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

That would easily wire into a transfer switch no problem.

You really need to look at transfer switches.

Twayne wrote:
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

That would easily wire into a transfer switch no problem.

You really need to look at transfer switches.


If he already has the generator, a DPDT switch *is* a viable option, and
a lot cheaper than a transfer switch.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

just a regular old grounded pigtail and a standard outlet will do just fine.
That's the way my HVAC guy installs all furnaces. That way the plug serves
as the disconnect required to be within vision of the furnace serviceman.

s


wrote in message
...
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
just a regular old grounded pigtail and a standard outlet will do just fine.
That's the way my HVAC guy installs all furnaces. That way the plug serves
as the disconnect required to be within vision of the furnace serviceman.

s



Furnaces around here are all wired with armored flex, usually a standard
light switch in a box on the side as a disconnect. I see no safety issue
with using a pigtail plugged into a receptacle to power the furnace, but
local codes may say otherwise, it's worth checking.

The NEC calls for the furnace to be hard wired to the circuit panel. That
said, it's physically possible to use a 110 volt plug and socket along the
line some where. Wire the furnace to a cord and plug. Plug that into a
powered socket. In time of power cut, plug the furnace into your extension
cord. Your refrigerator runs for twenty years with a plug and socket. Why
not the furnace? Furnace probably draws 5 to 7 amps, much less than the
fridge, or window air conditioner.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

Cite that NEC claim please.

s


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
The NEC calls for the furnace to be hard wired to the circuit panel. That
said, it's physically possible to use a 110 volt plug and socket along the
line some where. Wire the furnace to a cord and plug. Plug that into a
powered socket. In time of power cut, plug the furnace into your extension
cord. Your refrigerator runs for twenty years with a plug and socket. Why
not the furnace? Furnace probably draws 5 to 7 amps, much less than the
fridge, or window air conditioner.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


wrote in message
...
My gas furnace is hard wired to the main panel. In the event of an
extended power outage in winter, I'd like to have the option to run it
off my small Honda generator. The only real electrical draw is the
small 110V blower motor.

If we were in for an extended outage right now, I would probably just
jury-rig it with wire nuts and a sacrificed 12ga extension cord. I'd
like something a little more... sophisticated, something that is ready
on a moment's notice.

What if I:
1. Cut the existing hard line above the furnace and install a box with
an L5-20 twistlock socket.
2. Continue the hard line to the furnace from a second box adjacent to
the first.
3. Bug a short piece of 12-3 flexible cord to the hard line in the
second box.
4. Terminate the flexible cord with an L5-20 twistlock plug.

Is this kosher with NEC? Would running flex cable from the socket
clear to the furnace be a more acceptable solution?

Steve Barker wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
The NEC calls for the furnace to be hard wired to the circuit panel. That
said, it's physically possible to use a 110 volt plug and socket along the
line some where. Wire the furnace to a cord and plug. Plug that into a
powered socket. In time of power cut, plug the furnace into your extension
cord. Your refrigerator runs for twenty years with a plug and socket. Why
not the furnace? Furnace probably draws 5 to 7 amps, much less than the
fridge, or window air conditioner.


Cite that NEC claim please.


The NEC covers acceptable wiring methods. Where does the NEC say cord
connection is acceptable?

422.16 covers cord connection. It is allowed for maintenance and repair
or frequent interchange. None of them apply to a furnace.

--
bud---

Furnaces need regular maintenance. All of mine were installed by a
professional company, and he installs all furnances with a plug in cord.
He's a stickler for detail on code, so i'm sure that cord and plugs are
acceptable.


steve


"bud--" wrote in message
.. .

The NEC covers acceptable wiring methods. Where does the NEC say cord
connection is acceptable?

422.16 covers cord connection. It is allowed for maintenance and repair or
frequent interchange. None of them apply to a furnace.

--
bud---

Steve Barker wrote:
Furnaces need regular maintenance.

Cord and plug connection may be appropriate when you may have to remove
equipment to service it. For example a dishwasher, trash compactor or
oven. All are explicitly allowed to have cord and plug connection. You
don't remove a furnace for maintenance or repair.

Furnaces have a switch or disconnect installed by the electrician for
servicing.

All of mine were installed by a
professional company, and he installs all furnances with a plug in cord.
He's a stickler for detail on code, so i'm sure that cord and plugs are
acceptable.

I doubt you will find many inspectors that agree if they are enforcing
the NEC.

From NEC 400 - flexible cords and cables:
400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following
(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
(7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
(8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are
specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and
repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord
connection
end quote

And:
422.16 Flexible Cords.
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted
(1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent
interchange or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration or
(2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are
fastened in place, where the fastening means and mechanical connections
are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or
repair and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord
connection.
end quote

(A furnace is not likely an appliance.)

Where do the quotes allow a furnace to be cord connected? Or cite
another NEC section.

In the case of the OP, an inspector may, at their discretion, allow the
short cord connector for generator backup. I don’t see where the code
allows it. (Disconnecting the furnace with a plug should not break the
connection to the system ground.)

--
bud--

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
The NEC calls for the furnace to be hard wired to the circuit panel. That
said, it's physically possible to use a 110 volt plug and socket along the
line some where. Wire the furnace to a cord and plug. Plug that into a
powered socket. In time of power cut, plug the furnace into your extension
cord. Your refrigerator runs for twenty years with a plug and socket. Why
not the furnace? Furnace probably draws 5 to 7 amps, much less than the
fridge, or window air conditioner.

--
Christopher A. Young

I wired up my oil burning furnace with an in-line 110 volt plug and socket 9
years ago for Y2K (remember that?). Havn't used it since, but its still
there in the rafters of my laundry room. Did our well pump too with a 220
volt plug and socket. Tested them both out with a generator and they both
worked great. If nothing else, its good peace of mind. My only mistake was
reversing the plug and socket. Be sure you put the plug end on the furnace
side and the socket on the line side, otherwise you will have a live plug
(with the bare prongs hanging out) if you ever disconnect.

Dan