A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years,
and who I have known for about 12 years. Fact is, after I retired
in 1990, I went into part time contracting and whenever I had a
customer inquire about flooring, I sent them to him. Probably only
once or twice a year, but I am sure that some of those I referred to
him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from
the time he walked it. He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I
suspect he stopped and bought on the way over. He said that a
variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012, and that
most of the boards were within that tolerance. I said that this was
not explained to me when I bought to floor. Since, I have gone to
the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this
variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. I said I wanted it fixed and
he asked me how. I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't
tell him how to fix it.

He said I could get another floor company to tear out the floor and
install a new one, and if it wasn't the same way, that he would give
me my money back. I thought this was a ridiculous solution for
obvious reasons, mainly it would cost more just to have the old
floor removed. Then he said he would call an independent floor
inspector to come out and give an opinion. I didn't buy this either
because if he hires an independent inspector, that inspector is
going to obviously lean toward the dealer's position since he will
be thinking of future business. At this point, the dealer (my
friend) said I called him a liar, and went off on a tangent.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get
their input. This will happen next week. Of course, I don't know
what the rep will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path
options I have or which to take.

If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience
with hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and
suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Bob-tx (Georgetown)

On Jun 18, 5:23*am, "Bob" wrote:
A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. * The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. *It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. *Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. * This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. * The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years,
and who I have known for about 12 years. *Fact is, after I retired
in 1990, I went into part time contracting and whenever I had a
customer inquire about flooring, I sent them to him. *Probably only
once or twice a year, but I am sure that some of those I referred to
him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from
the time he walked it. *He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I
suspect he stopped and bought on the way over. *He said that a
variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012, and that
most of the boards were within that tolerance. *I said that this was
not explained to me when I bought to floor. *Since, I have gone to
the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this
variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. *I said I wanted it fixed and
he asked me how. *I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't
tell him how to fix it.

He said I could get another floor company to tear out the floor and
install a new one, and if it wasn't the same way, that he would give
me my money back. *I thought this was a ridiculous solution for
obvious reasons, mainly it would cost more just to have the old
floor removed. * *Then he said he would call an independent floor
inspector to come out and give an opinion. *I didn't buy this either
because if he hires an independent inspector, that inspector is
going to obviously lean toward the dealer's position since he will
be thinking of future business. *At this point, the dealer (my
friend) said I called him a liar, and went off on a tangent.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get
their input. *This will happen next week. * Of course, I don't know
what the rep will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path
options I have or which to take.

If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience
with hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and
suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Bob-tx (Georgetown)

Im no floor pro but glueing wood plank to a slab on grade is
something I would not have done. I would have considered a floating
floor with moisture barrier, rated for high moisture areas. Call the
manufacturer and get complete instalation recomendations, instructions
and warranty with all exclusions, or all info on their product. It
will just get worse over the years. I think his .12" being normal is
bs, have him show it to you in writing. You should be dealing with the
manufacturer on this as I am just guessing, even the store where it is
sold will have an opinion.

On Jun 18, 7:58 am, ransley wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:23 am, "Bob" wrote:



A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years,
and who I have known for about 12 years. Fact is, after I retired
in 1990, I went into part time contracting and whenever I had a
customer inquire about flooring, I sent them to him. Probably only
once or twice a year, but I am sure that some of those I referred to
him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from
the time he walked it. He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I
suspect he stopped and bought on the way over. He said that a
variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012, and that
most of the boards were within that tolerance. I said that this was
not explained to me when I bought to floor. Since, I have gone to
the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this
variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. I said I wanted it fixed and
he asked me how. I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't
tell him how to fix it.

He said I could get another floor company to tear out the floor and
install a new one, and if it wasn't the same way, that he would give
me my money back. I thought this was a ridiculous solution for
obvious reasons, mainly it would cost more just to have the old
floor removed. Then he said he would call an independent floor
inspector to come out and give an opinion. I didn't buy this either
because if he hires an independent inspector, that inspector is
going to obviously lean toward the dealer's position since he will
be thinking of future business. At this point, the dealer (my
friend) said I called him a liar, and went off on a tangent.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get
their input. This will happen next week. Of course, I don't know
what the rep will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path
options I have or which to take.

If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience
with hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and
suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Bob-tx (Georgetown)

Im no floor pro but glueing wood plank to a slab on grade is
something I would not have done. I would have considered a floating
floor with moisture barrier, rated for high moisture areas. Call the
manufacturer and get complete instalation recomendations, instructions
and warranty with all exclusions, or all info on their product. It
will just get worse over the years. I think his .12" being normal is
bs, have him show it to you in writing.

Not .12, but .012. That's the thickness of three sheets of copy
paper. The OP is being a overly picky, more than a bit prickly and is
arguing from a point of assumed perfection. If he'd wanted a
_perfectly_ flat floor gluing prefinished flooring to a slab is not
the way to go about it.

R

On Jun 18, 7:55*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Jun 18, 7:58 am, ransley wrote:





On Jun 18, 5:23 am, "Bob" wrote:

A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. * The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. *It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. *Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. * This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. * The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years,
and who I have known for about 12 years. *Fact is, after I retired
in 1990, I went into part time contracting and whenever I had a
customer inquire about flooring, I sent them to him. *Probably only
once or twice a year, but I am sure that some of those I referred to
him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from
the time he walked it. *He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I
suspect he stopped and bought on the way over. *He said that a
variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012, and that
most of the boards were within that tolerance. *I said that this was
not explained to me when I bought to floor. *Since, I have gone to
the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this
variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. *I said I wanted it fixed and
he asked me how. *I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't
tell him how to fix it.

He said I could get another floor company to tear out the floor and
install a new one, and if it wasn't the same way, that he would give
me my money back. *I thought this was a ridiculous solution for
obvious reasons, mainly it would cost more just to have the old
floor removed. * *Then he said he would call an independent floor
inspector to come out and give an opinion. *I didn't buy this either
because if he hires an independent inspector, that inspector is
going to obviously lean toward the dealer's position since he will
be thinking of future business. *At this point, the dealer (my
friend) said I called him a liar, and went off on a tangent.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get
their input. *This will happen next week. * Of course, I don't know
what the rep will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path
options I have or which to take.

If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience
with hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and
suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Bob-tx (Georgetown)

Im no floor pro but *glueing wood plank to a slab on grade is
something I would not have done. I would have considered a floating
floor with moisture barrier, rated for high moisture areas. Call the
manufacturer and get complete instalation recomendations, instructions
and warranty with all exclusions, or all info on their product. It
will just get worse over the years. I think his .12" being normal is
bs, have him show it to you in writing.

Not .12, but .012. *That's the thickness of three sheets of copy
paper. *The OP is being a overly picky, more than a bit prickly and is
arguing from a point of assumed perfection. *If he'd wanted a
_perfectly_ flat floor gluing prefinished flooring to a slab is not
the way to go about it.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One hundredth! I thought read a tenth, a hundredth you should not
realy even notice

I am not a flooring expert or installer but I can give you an
perspective as a design engineer.

The joint have a tongue and grove that must mate up. There has to be
clearance between the tongue and grove to allow the parts to go
together. This will result in one board being able to above its mating
board by the amount of the clearance gap I would expect the clearance
gap to be at least .010 inches. Also the board thickness has a
tolerance (say +/- .005, more likely +/- .010). Now consider each
board expands and contracts at a slight different rate. It is wood
after all. A lip of .005-.015" sounds very reasonable. If the floor
was perfectly flat (polished glass or metal held to precision
tolerances) then a flat floor with no lips greater than .01 might be
possible (this accounts for board thickness tolerance and expnsion/
contraction rates). So how flat is your sub-floor?

Bottom line: The installer came out and inspected the floor. Maybe his
attitude wasn't the best. A manufacturer rep is coming out to inspect
the floor. It sounds like the installer is standing behind his work.
However, to be honest, you do not have reasonable expectations. If you
want a floor where you would not detect the slight lippage, you should
have gotten a floor with micro beveled edges.

Just my opinion.

Bob wrote:

A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.



I don't know your flooring or what a feeler guage is, just curious. Was
a moisture test done
before install? Was product delivered few days before install to adjust
to temp/humidity?
Capella's website has warranty and installation info, he
http://www.capellafloors.com/install_warranty.htm

On Jun 18, 1:04*pm, Norminn wrote:
Bob wrote:
A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. * The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. *It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. *Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. * This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. * The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I don't know your flooring or what a feeler guage is, just curious. *Was
a moisture test done
before install? *Was product delivered few days before install to adjust
to temp/humidity?
Capella's website has warranty and installation info, hehttp://www.capellafloors.com/install_warranty.htm

It does state moisture from underneath voids the warranty, but .01
variance is not a claim

"Bob" wrote in message
...
A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family room
with hardwood. The product was engineered wood made by Capella Hardwood -
pecan, if that makes any difference. It is tongue and groove and glued
directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards have
edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This certainly was not
that way when it was first installed. The height of the raised boards
varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years, and
who I have known for about 12 years. Fact is, after I retired in 1990, I
went into part time contracting and whenever I had a customer inquire
about flooring, I sent them to him. Probably only once or twice a year,
but I am sure that some of those I referred to him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from the
time he walked it. He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I suspect he
stopped and bought on the way over. He said that a variation tolerance of
one board over the next was .012, and that most of the boards were within
that tolerance. I said that this was not explained to me when I bought to
floor. Since, I have gone to the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they
make no mention of this variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. I said I wanted it fixed and he
asked me how. I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't tell him
how to fix it.

He said I could get another floor company to tear out the floor and
install a new one, and if it wasn't the same way, that he would give me my
money back. I thought this was a ridiculous solution for obvious reasons,
mainly it would cost more just to have the old floor removed. Then he
said he would call an independent floor inspector to come out and give an
opinion. I didn't buy this either because if he hires an independent
inspector, that inspector is going to obviously lean toward the dealer's
position since he will be thinking of future business. At this point, the
dealer (my friend) said I called him a liar, and went off on a tangent.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get their
input. This will happen next week. Of course, I don't know what the rep
will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path options I have or
which to take.

If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience with
hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and suggestions.

It is taking on moisture from the concrete slab, OR it was not properly
cured wood and it is now drying out and changing dimensions. Real wood is
like that. Mother nature is a nasty person.

Resolution? Wait and see if it stabilizes, if it does, sand and refinish.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:23:59 -0600, "Bob"
wrote:

A couple months ago (04/15/08) we replaced the carpet in our family
room with hardwood. The product was engineered wood made by
Capella Hardwood - pecan, if that makes any difference. It is
tongue and groove and glued directly to the concrete slab.

When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards
have edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This
certainly was not that way when it was first installed. The height
of the raised boards varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a
feeler gauge.

I called the dealer, who is local and been in business for 30 years,
and who I have known for about 12 years. Fact is, after I retired
in 1990, I went into part time contracting and whenever I had a
customer inquire about flooring, I sent them to him. Probably only
once or twice a year, but I am sure that some of those I referred to
him bought from him.

Anyway, he came out and seemed to be spoiling for an argument from
the time he walked it. He had a brand new feeler gauge, which I
suspect he stopped and bought on the way over. He said that a
variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012, and that
most of the boards were within that tolerance. I said that this was
not explained to me when I bought to floor. Since, I have gone to
the web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this
variation.

He asked me what I wanted him to do. I said I wanted it fixed and
he asked me how. I said I wasn't in the floor business and couldn't
tell him how to fix it.

....
If there is anyone in this group that has knowledge and experience
with hardwood floors, I would sure appreciate your comments and
suggestions.

Thanks in advance, Bob-tx (Georgetown)

I just finished installing 3/4" Capella Pecan 4 1/2" planks a few
months ago as a replacement for a lot of carpet, but I did not go the
glue down route on a lower level slab and opted for a floating
subfloor with the hardwood nailed on top of that. However, I did
consider gluing it down at first. If installed properly, the adhesive
is supposed to take the place of a vapor barrier. Even if the floor
was layed properly, I am not surprised by the variation. For one, that
is why they bevel the edges of prefinished hardwood, to "even" out the
changes a bit. Second, wood varies, and I would take that to mean that
even though engineered, the wood in the plys varies a bit from plank
to plank and therefore the plys may respond differently to moisture.
We are talking just a shade over 1/64" here, and I guess I am not
surprised by that amount of variation. However, if I saw 1/16" or
greater, I might tend to start worrying.

"Bob" wrote in message
When it was installed, it looked great. Since then, several boards have
edges that are higher than the boards next to it. This certainly was not
that way when it was first installed. The height of the raised boards
varies from .005 to .017 inch, measured with a feeler gauge.

He said that a variation tolerance of one board over the next was .012,
and that most of the boards were within that tolerance. I said that this
was not explained to me when I bought to floor. Since, I have gone to the
web site of Capella Hardwood, and they make no mention of this variation.

I said I wanted a company representative to look at this and get their
input. This will happen next week. Of course, I don't know what the rep
will say, and if they tell me this is normal, what path options I have or
which to take.


Your expectations are just plain ridiculous. Call your friend and if he is
still talking to you, apologize to him.

Wood moves, expands, contracts with changes in humidity. Your concrete
floor is not that perfect either.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Your expectations are just plain ridiculous. Call your friend and if
he is still talking to you, apologize to him.

Wood moves, expands, contracts with changes in humidity. Your
concrete floor is not that perfect either.

Especially when the concrete finishers think: "Screw it. It'll be covered
with carpet anyway!"

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:34:14 -0700, noname87 wrote:

I am not a flooring expert or installer

That's quite clear!

but I can give you an
perspective as a design engineer.

The joint have a tongue and grove that must mate up. There has to be
clearance between the tongue and grove to allow the parts to go
together. This will result in one board being able to above its mating
board by the amount of the clearance gap I would expect the clearance
gap to be at least .010 inches. Also the board thickness has a tolerance
(say +/- .005, more likely +/- .010).

[snip]

I installed engineered floor a year ago (DIY, though I doubt that
matters). It's a different brand (Upo). I installed it free floating over
a foam underlayment over a vapor barrier. I do not have the problem
described in the slightest. If there is any height disparity it is
virtually undetectable (I walk on it in bare feet all the time).

You should take a look at some engineered flooring sometime. I think it
would surprise you. Certainly a .010 clearance gap in the groove is way
too high; probably .001 is closer to it. A flexible material like wood
doesn't need the clearance gap that metal does. A manufacturing thickness
variation of .005 is way more than existed with my product. The variation
from the tongue/groove to the surface is the thing that matters (not
total thickness). I'd guess it was probably .001 or less, virtually
undetectable by touch.

Conceivably the OP's variation might have come about with subsequent
moisture absorption. (And if so it may well be an installation error, as
others have suggested.) The material clearly expands and contracts
significantly with humidity, as is explained in the installation
instructions. (Gluing it to a radically different material seems risky to
me because of that, but maybe if the glue remains flexible...) However,
only board-to-board variations in expansion would cause the OP's problem.
Hasn't occurred in mine, at least not to detectable extent.

I can't speak for the quality of any other brand than Upo. But it is
clearly within the state of the art to do much better than what the OP
described.

You should take a look at some engineered flooring sometime. I think it
would surprise you. Certainly a .010 clearance gap in the groove is way
too high; probably .001 is closer to it. A flexible material like wood
doesn't need the clearance gap that metal does. A manufacturing thickness
variation of .005 is way more than existed with my product. The variation
from the tongue/groove to the surface is the thing that matters (not
total thickness). I'd guess it was probably .001 or less, virtually
undetectable by touch.

Thanks for the feedback. I would expect close tolerances for all
pieces from the same box. I am surprised that they can hold .001"
tolerances in wood. I agree the .01 tolerance for clearance would be
excessive. I am use to injection molded engineering plastics which
usually are not held that tight. I guess you learn something new every
day.