I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

Find first, what each cable is feeding, then it may make sense. Post back



wrote in message
...
I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:26:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

12 guage wire on a 30A breaker a code violation and can be fire
hazard.

From here, there is nothing wrong with using a 20A double pole breaker
to feed two single 20A circuits. The only problem with it would be
that if one circuit becomes overloaded and trips, it shuts power to
both circuits. There is also no reason to change it unless you you
have the need to turn one circuit off and have the other remain hot.

Also, you should have 4 white wires you haven't mentioned. You have
4-12/2 circuits leaving the panel. Right?

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 18:50:25 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:26:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

12 guage wire on a 30A breaker a code violation and can be fire
hazard.

From here, there is nothing wrong with using a 20A double pole breaker
to feed two single 20A circuits. The only problem with it would be
that if one circuit becomes overloaded and trips, it shuts power to
both circuits. There is also no reason to change it unless you you
have the need to turn one circuit off and have the other remain hot.

Also, you should have 4 white wires you haven't mentioned. You have
4-12/2 circuits leaving the panel. Right?


Now that I think about it, the easiest way to find out what you have
would be to go ahead and change all the breakers to single pole 20s.

Find first, what each cable is feeding, then it may make sense. Post back

I don't think it helps. The breaker feeds only overhead lights and
120V outlets. Specifically, I count:

5 overhead lights
1 outdoor flood light
14 120V outlets

Two of those outlets are on the ceiling in a shop area and power 120V
fluorescent lights. Two others power the two garage door openers.

Also, you should have 4 white wires you haven't mentioned. You have
4-12/2 circuits leaving the panel. Right?

4 12/2 cables tied to the two double-pole breakers. Each cable's
neutral goes to the neutral bar, and their grounds go to the ground
(which are separate since this is a subpanel).

Here's a part I didn't mention yet, but the more I look the more this
seems like the answer. What is leading me to investigate these is I
see that at some point previously the central A/C installers tied the
a/c power onto these breakers by sticking their wires under the
terminals with the existing ones (big no-no). Of course these devices
are 240V so they need a 2-pole breaker. I already know that these a/c
installers were utterly incompetent crooks, so I'm now thinking that
they went to the trouble of replacing the single pole breakers with 2-
pole so that they could feed the 240V, but of course didn't find
breaker space for what they needed and instead double-tapped the
breaker. This might account for the 30A rating on that breaker as
well, although other A/C units are tied to 20A breakers, so who
knows. I could see these guys just putting in a breaker until it
didn't trip it and saying that was good enough.

The reason I'm investigating all of this is so that I can fix it all
-- move the a/c's to their own 2-pole breakers, consolidate other
circuits as needed.

I wanted to ask about whether there was a realistic need for a 2-pole
breakers on individual 120V circuits and given your answers, I think
my guess above is probably what led to this fiasco. Now I need to
find out what the proper amperage rating is for the a/c units and fix
all of this.

Sounds like you've got it under control. You would use a double pole breaker
if you had two 120 volt circuits feeding the same outlet, which would be
split top and bottom



wrote in message
...

Find first, what each cable is feeding, then it may make sense. Post back

I don't think it helps. The breaker feeds only overhead lights and
120V outlets. Specifically, I count:

5 overhead lights
1 outdoor flood light
14 120V outlets

Two of those outlets are on the ceiling in a shop area and power 120V
fluorescent lights. Two others power the two garage door openers.

Also, you should have 4 white wires you haven't mentioned. You have
4-12/2 circuits leaving the panel. Right?

4 12/2 cables tied to the two double-pole breakers. Each cable's
neutral goes to the neutral bar, and their grounds go to the ground
(which are separate since this is a subpanel).

Here's a part I didn't mention yet, but the more I look the more this
seems like the answer. What is leading me to investigate these is I
see that at some point previously the central A/C installers tied the
a/c power onto these breakers by sticking their wires under the
terminals with the existing ones (big no-no). Of course these devices
are 240V so they need a 2-pole breaker. I already know that these a/c
installers were utterly incompetent crooks, so I'm now thinking that
they went to the trouble of replacing the single pole breakers with 2-
pole so that they could feed the 240V, but of course didn't find
breaker space for what they needed and instead double-tapped the
breaker. This might account for the 30A rating on that breaker as
well, although other A/C units are tied to 20A breakers, so who
knows. I could see these guys just putting in a breaker until it
didn't trip it and saying that was good enough.

The reason I'm investigating all of this is so that I can fix it all
-- move the a/c's to their own 2-pole breakers, consolidate other
circuits as needed.

I wanted to ask about whether there was a realistic need for a 2-pole
breakers on individual 120V circuits and given your answers, I think
my guess above is probably what led to this fiasco. Now I need to
find out what the proper amperage rating is for the a/c units and fix
all of this.

wrote:
I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Sometimes this is done when 2 circuits end up down the line in the same
junction box. I don't believe it's required but is safer as most people
assume that once they turn off one breaker all is well... then come to
find, the hard way, that there is another circuit in the same box.
Happens alot in switch boxes at the main entrance or garage entrance. I
have found a 3 gang switch box with 3 different circuits.

This does not sound like what you have but sometimes 2 circuits are
wired with a shared neutral. Usually this is done using 12 or 14/3
cable. If this is the case then the 2 circuits should be tied and must
remain on opposite poles else the neutral will be overloaded.

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

The only thing I know about that uses 120V 30A is an RV outlet. I have
one on my house. It needs to be 10ga wire.

It may be that the installer got a good deal on those breakers or just
used whatever he had left over from another job.

You will still need to map everything out to see what is going on.

Kevin

wrote in message
Here's a part I didn't mention yet, but the more I look the more this
seems like the answer.

Then why did you post without it? If you want answers, give compete
information the first time. We can't see what you have, we can't discern
what is hiding unless you give ALL the information pertaining to the
subject. You wasted the time of a lot of people with your negligence.

I wanted to ask about whether there was a realistic need for a 2-pole
breakers on individual 120V circuits and given your answers, I think
my guess above is probably what led to this fiasco. �Now I need to
find out what the proper amperage rating is for the a/c units and fix
all of this.

well lets say some circuits are in the same boxes. its done but not
common and can be unsafe unless you tie the 2 breakers together.

when one trips or is turned off so is the other.........

its another explnation to why someone did it this way.....

wrote:
I'm looking at a subpanel that was installed for an addition to my
house about 20 years ago (well before I bought it). I'm mapping out
the circuits which were never labeled.

I've found that four 120V circuits are tied to two common trip dual-
pole breakers. There are no 240V devices or outlets on these
circuits. I can see the wires tied to them and they are all black and
run into separate runs of 12/2 that lead to the addition.

Why would this have been done this way? And is there any reason I
shouldn't swap them with single pole breakers?

Also, one of those common trip breakers is rated at 30A. I've never
seen a 30A breaker used for a 120V circuit and that seems wrong to me
since the 12 gauge conductor isn't rated for 30A.

I'm guessing it may have been done with Edison circuits (common neutral)
as that would require common trip or 240V style breakers. Are half the
hot wires red in color?

I don't know why you have a 30A breaker in there, either if the wire
leaving is 12AWG. that sounds wrong to me.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
Here's a part I didn't mention yet, but the more I look the more this
seems like the answer.

Then why did you post without it? If you want answers, give compete
information the first time. We can't see what you have, we can't discern
what is hiding unless you give ALL the information pertaining to the
subject. You wasted the time of a lot of people with your negligence.



I didn't see you offering help after the first post.

a

"a" wrote in message news:dSDpj.7531$C61.1033@edtnps89...
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
Here's a part I didn't mention yet, but the more I look the more this
seems like the answer.

Then why did you post without it? If you want answers, give compete
information the first time. We can't see what you have, we can't discern
what is hiding unless you give ALL the information pertaining to the
subject. You wasted the time of a lot of people with your negligence.

I didn't see you offering help after the first post.

a

Because I was smart enough to read down and see he already had the answer.
If you expect people to help you, it is imperative to give all the
information available. If you go to the doctor and just tell him "I don't
feel good", chances are you won't get as good of help than if you accurately
describe the symptoms.