Hello.

We wanted to look at a water softener but our home is fully finished
and the plumbing is not accessable. I have to soften all lines in the
home, there is no way to isolate the kitchen sink or other drinking
water lines. We do not want to drink/cook with sof****er. And we don't
see the value in plumbing the hot side only.

So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more for
that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

Any comments are appreciated.
Thanks.

Freddy wrote:
Hello.

We wanted to look at a water softener but our home is fully finished
and the plumbing is not accessable. I have to soften all lines in
the home, there is no way to isolate the kitchen sink or other
drinking water lines. We do not want to drink/cook with sof****er.

Because of the added sodium? No facts or figures but I am reasonably
sure you'd get more sodium in one slice of pizza or small can of V8
than you would by drinking gallons of softened water.
_____________

So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more
for that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

Ask for customers' names and check with them. Or independant
lab/university tests. And ask if they also sell that stuff to put in
the gas tank so you can use water instead of gasoline.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Freddy wrote:
Hello.

We wanted to look at a water softener but our home is fully finished
and the plumbing is not accessable. I have to soften all lines in the
home, there is no way to isolate the kitchen sink or other drinking
water lines. We do not want to drink/cook with sof****er. And we don't
see the value in plumbing the hot side only.

So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more for
that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

Any comments are appreciated.
Thanks.


I would be very skeptical that this unit would work - even consider it a
fraud. To soften water you have to preform some chemistry which is
replacing calcium with sodium. Those on low salt diets would be better
off drinking hard water.

on 1/3/2008 10:21 AM Freddy said the following:
Hello.

We wanted to look at a water softener but our home is fully finished
and the plumbing is not accessable. I have to soften all lines in the
home, there is no way to isolate the kitchen sink or other drinking
water lines. We do not want to drink/cook with sof****er. And we don't
see the value in plumbing the hot side only.

So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more for
that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

Any comments are appreciated.
Thanks.


A softener can be installed between the water source and the cold water
inlet of the water heater. That way, only the hot water is softened.
Softened water also helps to reduce scale buildup in the WH.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

"Freddy" wrote in message
...
Hello.

We wanted to look at a water softener but our home is fully finished
and the plumbing is not accessable. I have to soften all lines in the
home, there is no way to isolate the kitchen sink or other drinking
water lines. We do not want to drink/cook with sof****er. And we don't
see the value in plumbing the hot side only.

So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more for
that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

Any comments are appreciated.
Thanks.


If you buy one, it does work. It is very effective at removing unwanted money
from suckers.

In article , Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:


So, any comments on water conditioners? I came across these guys
http://www.freije.com/residential-how-it-works.html and many more for
that mater. Are they for real, do they actually work?

There's some interesting reading on this and similar scams at
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

I would be very skeptical that this unit would work - even consider it a
fraud. To soften water you have to preform some chemistry which is
replacing calcium with sodium. Those on low salt diets would be better
off drinking hard water.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

There's some interesting reading on this and similar scams at
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

Nice site. I am, myself, a retired chemist and am constantly amazed at
the fraud put over on the technically ignorant.

Also recently let my plumber test my water and he wanted to put in a
water softener based on the results. I read them too and decided I did
not need it.

Frank

Because of the added sodium? *No facts or figures but I am reasonably
sure you'd get more sodium in one slice of pizza or small can of V8
than you would by drinking gallons of softenedwater.

Ha...yes because of the sodium, and i assume it would also alter the
taste of coffee or anything else for that matter....

A softener can be installed between thewatersource and the coldwater
inlet of thewaterheater. That way, only the ho****eris softened.
Softenedwateralso helps to reduce scale buildup in the WH.



Thanks, yup, but most homes use 2/3 cold water ,or more, then hot. We
just don't see the benifits for hot only for the expense.

If you buy one, it does work. It is very effective at removing unwanted money
from suckers.

Great. That is what i want to hear.

In article , Freddy wrote:

Because of the added sodium? =A0No facts or figures but I am reasonably
sure you'd get more sodium in one slice of pizza or small can of V8
than you would by drinking gallons of softenedwater.

Change "gallons" to "a gallon" and you'll be pretty close, I think.

Hard water may contain 100mg per liter of calcium or more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water
Thus, it's conceivable that completely softened water may have in the
neighborhood of 200+mg of sodium per liter (it takes two sodium ions to
replace one calcium ion), or, very roughly, 750mg per gallon.

Ha...yes because of the sodium, and i assume it would also alter the
taste of coffee or anything else for that matter....

Coffee made with soft water is horrible, just awful. It makes pretty lousy
tea, too. And it's bad for plants.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Freddy wrote:
Because of the added sodium? No facts or figures but I am
reasonably sure you'd get more sodium in one slice of pizza or
small can of V8 than you would by drinking gallons of
softenedwater.

Ha...yes because of the sodium, and i assume it would also alter the
taste of coffee or anything else for that matter....

It's sodium, not salt. I can taste no difference but our water wasn't
crushingly hard to begin with. One thing sure, the softened water has
a more neutral taste than the unsiftened because the iron/sulfur taste
is gone too.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

my dad uses a softener in phoenix, drinking water is run thru a
osmosis water purifier to remove salt like substances and off tastes.
my dad has high blood pressure and cant have added salt.........

its supposed to be very effective, and their fixtures dont get scungy
deposits.

although showering in soft water feels slimy, they say you get used to
it

Doug,

What you seem to be saying is that softened water may contain between 0
and 200 mg. of sodium per liter I'm ok with that. Then say that softened
water makes bad coffee but you don't tells us whether it's the sodium and
how much sodium concentration makes the coffee bad. That doesn't work for
me.
I have a softener because my water contains about 35 gpg of hardness,
probably calcium. I do make coffee and tea with the softened water. It's
fine for this, in my opinion. The unsoftened water makes terrible tea,
there's a precipitate.
Explain how much sodium is required to produce your bad coffee. My
experience argues that some sodium is ok.

Dave M.

On Jan 3, 7:09 pm, "David L. Martel" wrote:
I do make coffee and tea with the softened water. It's
fine for this, in my opinion.

We don't have any problem with it, and if we did we'd just use 50¢
gallon distilled water (I'd use distilled anyway, like I used to, but
I'm not The Boss of me anymore).
-----

- gpsman

In article , "David L. Martel" wrote:
Doug,

What you seem to be saying is that softened water may contain between 0
and 200 mg. of sodium per liter I'm ok with that.

If you're on a sodium-restricted diet, you might not be ok with that.

Then say that softened
water makes bad coffee but you don't tells us whether it's the sodium and
how much sodium concentration makes the coffee bad. That doesn't work for
me.

I don't know, and I really don't care, whether it's the presence of sodium, or
the absence of calcium, or the phase of the moon or whatever that makes
soft-water coffee taste like crap. Soft water makes awful coffee. In my
opinion. Don't believe me? Try it yourself. Don't agree with me? Enjoy it.
Just don't invite me over for coffee, ok? g

I have a softener because my water contains about 35 gpg of hardness,
probably calcium. I do make coffee and tea with the softened water. It's
fine for this, in my opinion. The unsoftened water makes terrible tea,
there's a precipitate.
Explain how much sodium is required to produce your bad coffee. My
experience argues that some sodium is ok.

I have no idea. If you like it, fine. But I won't be having coffee at your
house.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug,


What you seem to be saying is that softened water may contain between 0
and 200 mg. of sodium per liter I'm ok with that.

If you're on a sodium-restricted diet, you might not be ok with that.


But I'm not and if I were I'd consult with a physician. Perhaps he'd
recommend using KCl instead of NaCl. Don't know if KCl makes bad coffee or
tea though.

Then say that softened
water makes bad coffee but you don't tells us whether it's the sodium and
how much sodium concentration makes the coffee bad. That doesn't work for
me.

I don't know, and I really don't care, whether it's the presence of
sodium, or
the absence of calcium, or the phase of the moon or whatever that makes
soft-water coffee taste like crap. Soft water makes awful coffee. In my
opinion. Don't believe me? Try it yourself.

You need to read the whole post before you begin firing off your retort.
As my post makes clear I do make both coffee and tea with softened water and
I've received no complaints.

Don't agree with me? Enjoy it.

I do. So do my guests.

Dave M.

In article , "David L. Martel" wrote:

As my post makes clear I do make both coffee and tea with softened water and
I've received no complaints.

Don't agree with me? Enjoy it.

I do. So do my guests.

Or maybe they're just too polite to tell you. :-)

If you have more than 3-4 gpg of hardness in your water, you'll spend
more money to heat water, replace water heaters and/or electric
elements and other water using appliances and to wash and replace
clothes and fixtures that will wear out prematurely etc. than to buy a
softener and maintain it. Of course that means you don't pay gobs more
bucks for it than you could have.

All the water used in the house should be treated, not just the water
heater cold feed. And there should not be a hard water line run to the
kitchen sink, or toilets etc.. The people that think they get a
benefit out of drinking hard water need to look up how much water
they'd have to drink to get any benefit from the minerals in it. And
drinking too much water will kill you.

The added sodium caused by ion exchange softening, if using softener
salt instead of potassium chloride (salt substitute) which is not as
efficient as 'salt' because all cation softening resins are made in
the sodium form, is 7.85 mg/l (roughly a quart) per gpg of exchange.
Thirty five gpg = 274.75 mg/liter (or quart).

Most of us are npt drinking the 8 8oz glasses of water we are supposed
to so how many are ingesting a quart of softened water a day?

An 8 oz glass of V8 is like 560 mg of sodium. Same size glass of skim
milk, about 530. A slice of white bread, from 120-160 mg. On'n on.
Some people could eat a few less chips or other snack foods and drink
a gallon or more of their softened water and actually REDUCE their
daily sodium intake. But they see all that salt they pour in their
salt tank disappear and mistakenly think it all went into their water.
It doesn't. A softener only uses a small amount of the sodium, all the
rest and all the chloride goes out the drain line.

People on sodium restricted diets know how to count their daily uptake
and can adjust accordingly. Healthy people get much more sodium than
the body requires but drinking softened water doesn't add near as much
as some would have us believe.

BTW, all waters contain some sodium to begin with, check your water
company's water quality report or have a sodium test done on your well
water and see.

The vast majority of people with water softeners say their coffee and
tea tastes better or there is no difference. Hardness (calcium and
magnesium) is a small part of all the stuff in the TDS (total
dissolved solids) content of a water. They cause taste problems much
more easily than hardness does.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

In ,
Gary Slusser wrote in part:

The added sodium caused by ion exchange softening, if using softener
salt instead of potassium chloride (salt substitute) which is not as
efficient as 'salt' because all cation softening resins are made in
the sodium form, is 7.85 mg/l (roughly a quart) per gpg of exchange.
Thirty five gpg = 274.75 mg/liter (or quart).

Most of us are npt drinking the 8 8oz glasses of water we are supposed
to so how many are ingesting a quart of softened water a day?

An 8 oz glass of V8 is like 560 mg of sodium.

My doctor would rather have me find a substitute with less added salt.

Same size glass of skim milk, about 530.

The label on the gallon skim milk bottle in my refrigerator says 125 per
8 oz serving.

A slice of white bread, from 120-160 mg. On'n on.

- Don Klipstein )

On Jan 7, 1:33 pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In ,
Gary Slusser wrote in part:

The added sodium caused by ion exchange softening, if using softener
salt instead of potassium chloride (salt substitute) which is not as
efficient as 'salt' because all cation softening resins are made in
the sodium form, is 7.85 mg/l (roughly a quart) per gpg of exchange.
Thirty five gpg = 274.75 mg/liter (or quart).

Most of us are npt drinking the 8 8oz glasses of water we are supposed
to so how many are ingesting a quart of softened water a day?

An 8 oz glass of V8 is like 560 mg of sodium.

My doctor would rather have me find a substitute with less added salt.

Same size glass of skim milk, about 530.

The label on the gallon skim milk bottle in my refrigerator says 125 per
8 oz serving.

A slice of white bread, from 120-160 mg. On'n on.

- Don Klipstein )

Your doctor may need to improve his knowledge of ion exchange water
softening. BTW, too much potassium in your diet can cause serious
health problems too. In much less time than sodium takes.

Water from one source to another source is usually very different, and
so is skim milk. Skim milk is produced from whole milk by any number
of mostly local or regional producers while the sodium content of milk
will vary from one source to another.

The vast majority of people with water softeners never notice a
difference in the taste of their water, coffee, tea or other beverages
made with the softened water.

If water has more than 3-4 gpg of hardness, it costs more to deal with
the hardness caused problems like increased cost to heat water,
premature wear of fixtures, clothing and all other fabrics washed in
hard water and all water using appliances, the need for skin creams
and cleansers, increased volume of soaps and detergents etc.etc., than
to purchase and maintain a water softener. Of course that implies you
pay attention to the purchase price of the softener.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

In ,
Gary Slusser wrote:

On Jan 7, 1:33 pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In ,
Gary Slusser wrote in part:

The added sodium caused by ion exchange softening, if using softener
salt instead of potassium chloride (salt substitute) which is not as
efficient as 'salt' because all cation softening resins are made in
the sodium form, is 7.85 mg/l (roughly a quart) per gpg of exchange.
Thirty five gpg = 274.75 mg/liter (or quart).

Most of us are npt drinking the 8 8oz glasses of water we are supposed
to so how many are ingesting a quart of softened water a day?

An 8 oz glass of V8 is like 560 mg of sodium.

My doctor would rather have me find a substitute with less added salt.

Same size glass of skim milk, about 530.

The label on the gallon skim milk bottle in my refrigerator says 125 per
8 oz serving.

A slice of white bread, from 120-160 mg. On'n on.

- Don Klipstein )

Your doctor may need to improve his knowledge of ion exchange water
softening. BTW, too much potassium in your diet can cause serious
health problems too. In much less time than sodium takes.

I would not ask my doctor what I need for my plumbing system - I would
ask a plumber. I merely mentioned that my doctor would say that you are
citing some especially salty beverages that my doctor recommends against
for me.

Water from one source to another source is usually very different, and
so is skim milk. Skim milk is produced from whole milk by any number
of mostly local or regional producers while the sodium content of milk
will vary from one source to another.

I would think that sodium content in milk is determined more by blood
sodium level of the cow, and blood sodium level varies less than
proportionately with dietary sodium intake.

For that matter, I try Google on:

"sodium content" milk

and look at plenty of charts that agree on 50 mg/100g (about 120 mg per
8 ounces) or 127-130 mg per 8 ounces.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ says that:

Whole milk has 127 mg per 8 oz
Nonfat fluid milk has 127 mg
Nonfat fluid milk with Vitamin A added has 103 mg

http://www.biochemj.org/bj/029/0978/0290978.pdf

is a study promoting existence of a wider range of variation, with the
high side 139.2 mg per 100 ml, which translates to 333 mg per 8 oz.

- Don Klipstein )