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rjs
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

Father-in-law wishes to install one of the above in order to, I
understand, reduce the scale build up in the water pipes and on the taps
in his house.

He has found vast amounts of literature about conditioners and softeners
as individual items i.e. how to install, where to install, runing costs
etc but nothing which tells him the pros and cons and what each system
is designed to do. FWIW he is astounded to find that Which? has
written nothing (ever) about these devices.


Can anyone offer any advice and guidance?

TIA


Richard

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM
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Nigel Molesworth
 
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On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:43 +0000, rjs wrote:

the pros and cons and what each system
is designed to do


Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't.

Water Softeners virtually eliminate the calcium carbonate (limescale)
in the water by swapping the carbonate ion for the chloride ion. As a
result scale is removed, the water feels more "luxurious", soap forms
a lather more easily and doesn't form scum, you need less detergent in
your washing machine, and you don't need salt in your dishwasher. I
would never go back to hard water.

--
Nigel M
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Aidan
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners


Nigel Molesworth wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:43 +0000, rjs wrote:

the pros and cons and what each system


Ion exchange softeners work. They cost from around £350ish plus
installation. You need to tip in a sack of salt at regular intervals;
the consumption depends on how frequently they regenerate or your water
consumption.
Lots of data posted previously, search the archives.

Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't.


Electronic/magnetic water conditioners are claimed to work, mostly by
the sellers. The effects are dubious. Most sensible posters here
believe they don't work. Dr Drivel believes that they do work.
Lots of data posted previously, search the archives.


......... by swapping the carbonate ion for the chloride ion.


Close. It swaps the calcium &/or magnesium base ions for sodium, but
who cares if they work. Which they do.

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sponix
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:11:14 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't.


They *possibly* work, as discussed in another thread.

Water Softeners... you need less detergent in
your washing machine


Not true.

Detergent is no more effective with softened water. All softened water
does is allow the detergent to produce more bubbles. As you'll
remember from 'O' level chemistry bubbles don't have a cleaning
effect!

The public equate "more bubbles"="better cleaning" and this is simply
not true.

Manufacturers make detergents that bubble simply because the public
prefer them!

Southern Water confirm this fact:
http://www.southernwater.co.uk/educa...erHardness.asp

"While hard water does not produce as much lather this has NO EFFECT
on the performance of soaps and washing detergents".

In other words it's all "spin" circulated by the softener
manufacturers..

and you don't need salt in your dishwasher.


True.

Two other points to bear in mind if you have a softener fitted is that
you must have an unsoftened drinking water tap installed, due to the
possible increased levels of sodium. In addition you have to have a
compulsory water meter installed as they use excess water during
regeneration.

sponix
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Nigel Molesworth
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On 21 Mar 2006 12:07:56 -0800, Aidan wrote:

......... by swapping the carbonate ion for the chloride ion.


Close. It swaps the calcium &/or magnesium base ions for sodium, but
who cares if they work. Which they do.


Same thing. Turns Sodium Chloride and Calcium Carbonate into Sodium
Carbonate and Calcium Chloride.

--
Nigel M


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Nigel Molesworth
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:16:37 +0000, sponix wrote:

Southern Water confirm this fact:


You are using "fact" as if Southern Water have no need for spin.

I can assure you that soft water does not require as much detergent
for the same cleaning power. Part of the detergent is used up in
softening the water.

--
Nigel M
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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:16:37 +0000, sponix wrote:



Two other points to bear in mind if you have a softener fitted is that
you must have an unsoftened drinking water tap installed, due to the
possible increased levels of sodium.


That is only the advice of teh water companies. There is not a health
reason for it. Having said that, all tap water tastes pretty
disgusting anyway.



In addition you have to have a
compulsory water meter installed as they use excess water during
regeneration.


Not true. The only requirement is that the supplier is notified
that one has been fitted. It doesn't necessarily mean that they
will insist on a meter. It does mean that the householder no longer
has the right not to have a meter according to DEFRA.



--

..andy


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The Natural Philosopher
 
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Nigel Molesworth wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:43 +0000, rjs wrote:

the pros and cons and what each system
is designed to do


Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't.

Water Softeners virtually eliminate the calcium carbonate (limescale)
in the water by swapping the carbonate ion for the chloride ion.


And making the calcium carbonate sodium carbonate which adds an
interesting mineral water flavour.

As a
result scale is removed, the water feels more "luxurious", soap forms
a lather more easily and doesn't form scum, you need less detergent in
your washing machine, and you don't need salt in your dishwasher. I
would never go back to hard water.

Ditto.
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

sponix wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:11:14 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't.


They *possibly* work, as discussed in another thread.


Only insofar as they modify the type of precipitation that calcium
carbonate crystallizes out at for a short way downstream of the device.

That my prevent e.g. hard scale forming in a local pump, but it doesn't
soften the water, and nor does it prevent scale forming elsewhere.

Water Softeners... you need less detergent in
your washing machine


Not true.

Detergent is no more effective with softened water. All softened water
does is allow the detergent to produce more bubbles. As you'll
remember from 'O' level chemistry bubbles don't have a cleaning
effect!


Incorrect by and large. A lot depends on the detergent though. You can
easily run a test if you have softened water by getting your hands oily,
and washing them first in softened, and then in unsoftened water using
e.g washing up liquid.


The public equate "more bubbles"="better cleaning" and this is simply
not true.

Manufacturers make detergents that bubble simply because the public
prefer them!

And they work whether or not the eater is softened.

Southern Water confirm this fact:
http://www.southernwater.co.uk/educa...erHardness.asp

"While hard water does not produce as much lather this has NO EFFECT
on the performance of soaps and washing detergents".

In other words it's all "spin" circulated by the softener
manufacturers..


Its not. Soaps particularly react with calcium carboante to form an
insoluble scum that does not do what soap is designed to do - allow
grease and fats to become water soluble.

I don't know where southern water got their 'facts' from but they are
plain WRONG.



and you don't need salt in your dishwasher.


True.

Two other points to bear in mind if you have a softener fitted is that
you must have an unsoftened drinking water tap installed, due to the
possible increased levels of sodium. In addition you have to have a
compulsory water meter installed as they use excess water during
regeneration.


It is CONVENTIONAL to have this, I do not believe the regulations
INSIST, and in any case, there is more sodium carbonate in moist mineral
water than in softened tap water, and more salt in a bag of peanuts than
50 gallons of softened water.


sponix

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The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:16:37 +0000, sponix wrote:


Two other points to bear in mind if you have a softener fitted is that
you must have an unsoftened drinking water tap installed, due to the
possible increased levels of sodium.


That is only the advice of teh water companies. There is not a health
reason for it. Having said that, all tap water tastes pretty
disgusting anyway.


Thats because it has most of the minerals like sodium carbonate taken
out of it ;-)


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rjs
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

sponix wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:11:14 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:



Two other points to bear in mind if you have a softener fitted is that
you must have an unsoftened drinking water tap installed, due to the
possible increased levels of sodium. In addition you have to have a
compulsory water meter installed as they use excess water during
regeneration.

sponix



My parents have a softener - installed in the last couple of years - and
no water meter.

Richard

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM
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Sponix
 
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On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:34:36 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

I can assure you that soft water does not require as much detergent
for the same cleaning power. Part of the detergent is used up in
softening the water.


The cleaning power is exactly the same! The effect is purely
psychological, due to the increase in "bubbleability".

Ask on one of the chemistry newsgroups.

sponix

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Sponix
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:42:18 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

That is only the advice of teh water companies. There is not a health
reason for it. Having said that, all tap water tastes pretty
disgusting anyway.


I believe the non-softened tap is a requirement under water bylaws.

In addition you have to have a
compulsory water meter installed as they use excess water during
regeneration.

Not true.


True in the Southern Water area at least. Similarly if you have a
garden tap installed etc.

sponix
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Sponix
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:05:11 +0000, rjs wrote:

My parents have a softener - installed in the last couple of years - and
no water meter.


Did they tell the water company?

sponix
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Peter Parry
 
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On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:43 +0000, rjs wrote:

Can anyone offer any advice and guidance?


Water Conditioners - Mostly fall into one of three types.

Polyphosphate dosers - Work much the same as Calgon powder and add
small amounts of a chemical to the water to reduce scale formation.
They do not "soften" the water. Need replenishment of the chemical
periodically (about every 6-12 months). This is straightforward and
usually involves just replacing a small cartridge.

Magnetic - No evidence they work in single pass (domestic)
environments but some that they do in industrial recirculation
systems.

Electronic - No evidence they work at all, none have ever been shown
to work in properly conducted tests. No credible theory why or how
they could work.

None of these soften the water and none will significantly (or at
all) affect scale deposits on tap outlets. The Polyphosphate dosers
will reduce scale build up in pipes.

Water companies tend to encourage use of any of the above as
irrespective of whether they work or not none increase water
consumption which means the water companies don't have to worry quite
so much about repairing all their leaking pipes.

Water Softeners - One of three types

Electrolysis - almost unknown in the UK.

Reverse Osmosis - Rarely used except where water purification is
also needed (eg for treating river or well water).

Ion Exchange - the traditional unit where an ion exchange resin is
used to swap calcium for sodium. The result is water which has most
of the properties of water in soft water regions. Increases the
amount of sodium in the water and the kitchen tap is normally plumbed
to take water from before the softener or a separate untreated water
tap is provided. In the hardest water area in the UK the amount of
Sodium added by softening if you obtained all your drinking and
cooking water via the softener is somewhat less than you would get
from eating 1 slice of bread.

If you have a combi boiler you need to watch the maximum flow rate as
many water softeners won't cope. Some combi boiler manufacturers
also recommend against using a water softener with their boilers.

Softeners come in three types - those that regenerate on a timer at a
set time (usually at night), those that meter the water and
regenerate when needed and those that have twin resin containers and
switch between them. Conventional advertising wisdom ranks these in
the order listed with the twin cylinder being "best". The fact it is
also the most expensive is of course as irrelevant as a peerage to a
nulabor donor. In practice there is very little difference between
the efficacy, salt or water usage of the three types.

http://www.colemanwater.co.uk/html/c...on_framset.htm is a
comparison of some softeners water and salt consumption.

Most water softeners use resins produced by 3M (even those that claim
to manufacture there own usually simply repackage 3M resins).
Changes in the law in California where the water is very hard,
softeners are common and water consumption is very high, have led to
more efficient resins being produced but few have found their way to
the UK where most manufacturers still use the older and less
efficient resins.

Prices rarely bear any relationship to quality and almost none to
capability but a lot to marketing. Companies such as Kinetico will
give the salesman about GBP250 for selling you a GBP1000 machine so
selling tends to be fairly high pressure. Much of the information on
manufacturers and retailers web sites is best described as
overstated.

It pays to shop around as the markup is so high. If you can find a
supplier fairly well down the supply line a unit costing GBP900 at
retail should be obtainable for about GBP250-300. Even eBay has some
small suppliers selling new equipment at quite reasonable prices.

Plumbing in can be a bit complicated depending where the existing
water main is and where pipes run. You should spend some time
planning where the thing is going to go bearing in mind you need to
get salt to it fairly frequently (once a week or more).

Beware of much information on US sites. The Americans have
significantly different systems and issues, for example high iron
content is a major and common problem in many US borehole wells but
almost irrelevant in the UK.




--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/


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Ian_m
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Nigel Molesworth wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:43 +0000, rjs wrote:

the pros and cons and what each system is designed to do


Water Conditioners claim to reduce scale by magic. They don't. Water
Softeners virtually eliminate the calcium carbonate (limescale)
in the water by swapping the carbonate ion for the chloride ion.


And making the calcium carbonate sodium carbonate which adds an
interesting mineral water flavour.

As a
result scale is removed, the water feels more "luxurious", soap forms
a lather more easily and doesn't form scum, you need less detergent in
your washing machine, and you don't need salt in your dishwasher. I
would never go back to hard water.

Lots of misinformation he-

- Soft water from a softener contains sodium carbonate rather than
calcium/magnesium carbonate, the hardness.
- You use less soap as soap is not being consumed by reacting with the hard
water. Basic hard water reaction is sodium stearate (soap) + calcium
carbonate (hardness) - calcium stearate (scum) + sodium carbonate. Soft
water contains sodium carbonate and doesn't react with the soap, so all the
soap goes into cleaning rather than scum making.
- You don't have to have a water meter.
- You don't have to ask the water company.

This misinformation about asking water companies comes from Google and not
reading which country the rules apply to. Many US states forbid the fitting
of ion exchange water softeners as the excess chloride discharged by water
softeners (calcium chloride) is discharged into rivers and ends up being
used to irrigate crops causing crop failures due to excess chloride ions. In
UK this is not an issue as there is little irrigation using river water,
some chloride is removed in sewerage works and it all ends up being
discharged into the sea which happens to be full of chloride ions.


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Nigel Molesworth
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:51:23 -0000, Ian_m wrote:

Lots of misinformation he-

I agree.

- Soft water from a softener contains sodium carbonate rather than
calcium/magnesium carbonate, the hardness.

Agreed. I said "[ion exchanger] Turns Sodium Chloride and Calcium
Carbonate into Sodium Carbonate and Calcium Chloride"

- You use less soap as soap is not being consumed by reacting with the hard
water. Basic hard water reaction is sodium stearate (soap) + calcium
carbonate (hardness) - calcium stearate (scum) + sodium carbonate. Soft
water contains sodium carbonate and doesn't react with the soap, so all the
soap goes into cleaning rather than scum making.

Agreed. I said "soft water does not require as much detergent for the
same cleaning power. Part of the detergent is used up in softening the
water."

- You don't have to have a water meter.

Agreed. If fact you use less water in the long run, it rinses better.

- You don't have to ask the water company.

Agreed. See above.

--
Nigel M
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Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:51:22 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:51:23 -0000, Ian_m wrote:

Lots of misinformation he-

I agree.

- Soft water from a softener contains sodium carbonate rather than
calcium/magnesium carbonate, the hardness.

Agreed. I said "[ion exchanger] Turns Sodium Chloride and Calcium
Carbonate into Sodium Carbonate and Calcium Chloride"

- You use less soap as soap is not being consumed by reacting with the hard
water. Basic hard water reaction is sodium stearate (soap) + calcium
carbonate (hardness) - calcium stearate (scum) + sodium carbonate. Soft
water contains sodium carbonate and doesn't react with the soap, so all the
soap goes into cleaning rather than scum making.

Agreed. I said "soft water does not require as much detergent for the
same cleaning power. Part of the detergent is used up in softening the
water."

- You don't have to have a water meter.

Agreed. If fact you use less water in the long run, it rinses better.

- You don't have to ask the water company.

Agreed. See above.



In fact you do have to tell the water company that you have a softener
(according to DEFRA). This also negates your right not to have a
meter. This means that the water company *may* insist that you have
one.


--

..andy

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Ian_m
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:51:22 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:
snip

In fact you do have to tell the water company that you have a softener
(according to DEFRA). This also negates your right not to have a
meter. This means that the water company *may* insist that you have
one.

Mine (Southern Water) doesn't as I phoned up asking for the water hardness
as I was fitting a water softener, they put me through to technical (or some
such thing) who asked me what I wanted to know and was given the figure 19
Clark in my case...hard...

Can't see why you need a meter, mine discharges 16l of water every couple of
days, thats really only two loo flushes, and the fact that you can get away
with less water and soap usage saves money (but savings probably don't cover
the £500 cost of the softener, but we didn't fit it to save money)


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Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:00:18 -0000, "Ian_m" wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:51:22 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:
snip

In fact you do have to tell the water company that you have a softener
(according to DEFRA). This also negates your right not to have a
meter. This means that the water company *may* insist that you have
one.

Mine (Southern Water) doesn't as I phoned up asking for the water hardness
as I was fitting a water softener, they put me through to technical (or some
such thing) who asked me what I wanted to know and was given the figure 19
Clark in my case...hard...


Take a look at

http://www.southernwater.co.uk/b2b/w...tification.asp

You do have to officially notify them. Whether you do, and whether
they would ever find out if you didn't is an entirely different
matter.



Can't see why you need a meter, mine discharges 16l of water every couple of
days, thats really only two loo flushes, and the fact that you can get away
with less water and soap usage saves money (but savings probably don't cover
the £500 cost of the softener, but we didn't fit it to save money)


Don't look for logic in any of this - look for politics, bull**** and
a reason for the water companies to fit a meter should they choose to
do so.



--

..andy



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Nigel Molesworth
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:09:42 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

http://www.southernwater.co.uk/b2b/w...tification.asp
You do have to officially notify them.


Which bit of this says you have to notify them?

--
Nigel M
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Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:59:39 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 17:09:42 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

http://www.southernwater.co.uk/b2b/w...tification.asp
You do have to officially notify them.


Which bit of this says you have to notify them?



From near the top of the page in the middle:

"Before work starts on any proposed installation, the installer, owner
or occupier must notify Southern Water by submitting a Notification of
Proposed Works form. This applies to water system installations or
alterations in connection with any of the following:"


In section A:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)




--

..andy


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Nigel Molesworth
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)


********. It means a sewage treatment plant.

--
Nigel M
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Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:33:25 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)


********. It means a sewage treatment plant.



It means (as examples) - water softeners and waste disposers

Look at

http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/uploade...15_ws_regs.pdf

Section 9e

http://www.eswater.co.uk/about/domestic.asp

http://www.thameswateruk.co.uk/en_gb...ary_-_84kb.pdf

Page 2, Section f.

http://www.south-staffs-water.co.uk/...eebook06_1.pdf

Page 13

http://www.thws.co.uk/pdf/wf_codeofpractice.pdf

Page 5


etc.



--

..andy


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Ian_m
 
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SNIP
It means (as examples) - water softeners and waste disposers

Look at

http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/uploade...15_ws_regs.pdf

SNIP

I think you lot are right, I should have informed my water company. (whoops
that goes along with the kitchen Part P violation of wiring it into an
existing switched spur in the kitchen !!). When I phoned them to find out my
water hardness, I did explain why I wanted it, but they never mentioned I
need tell them.

They know my address as houses in my area are supplied from two different
sources depending on address and have different hardness. I am supplied from
Twyford and at 19 Clark. (You can visit the old pumping and softening works
here http://www.hants.gov.uk/twt/index.html , no ion exchange, reverse
osmosis here, just add lime to the water in Victorian times).

The water company were more interested/concerned that I was fitting a double
check valve on the incoming main than what I was attaching.




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Brian Sharrock
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:33:25 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)


********. It means a sewage treatment plant.


big snip

AIUI, dishwaters incorporate a salt-dispensing (and tablets boast of
containg salt) water softener; so are such devices 'caught' by these
regulations? How does the 'salty' discharge of a dishwasher used two times a
day by a large family compare against a water-softener used by a two-person
household?

--

Brian



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Andy Hall
 
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:56:50 -0000, "Ian_m" wrote:

SNIP

It means (as examples) - water softeners and waste disposers

Look at

http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/uploade...15_ws_regs.pdf

SNIP

I think you lot are right, I should have informed my water company. (whoops
that goes along with the kitchen Part P violation of wiring it into an
existing switched spur in the kitchen !!). When I phoned them to find out my
water hardness, I did explain why I wanted it, but they never mentioned I
need tell them.

They know my address as houses in my area are supplied from two different
sources depending on address and have different hardness. I am supplied from
Twyford and at 19 Clark. (You can visit the old pumping and softening works
here http://www.hants.gov.uk/twt/index.html , no ion exchange, reverse
osmosis here, just add lime to the water in Victorian times).

The water company were more interested/concerned that I was fitting a double
check valve on the incoming main than what I was attaching.


Yes, the concern there is about the risk that brine would enter the
cold water mains in the event of a burst and negative pressure in the
main.

WRC etc. are very keen on the idea of check valves almost everywhere.

Not long ago, I had a conversation with a gentleman there who spoke
with quite a high pitched south Wales accent - a bit like Clive
Jenkins of union notoriety. He explained to me very excitedly
about the necessity of having NR valves on showers, because (he
explained confidentially) of

"certain members of our society who need to wash themselves in a
particular way, and who use the hose from the shower where the sun
don't shine, see......"

(rising to crescendo)

" then drop it in the toilet".

So now we know. Look you.



--

..andy


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  #28   Report Post  
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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:18 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:33:25 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)

********. It means a sewage treatment plant.


big snip

AIUI, dishwaters incorporate a salt-dispensing (and tablets boast of
containg salt) water softener; so are such devices 'caught' by these
regulations?


They *should* be, based on he legislation. Possibly there's an
internal check valve, but I've never heard of one.


How does the 'salty' discharge of a dishwasher used two times a
day by a large family compare against a water-softener used by a two-person
household?


Less because the amount of water being softened is less.


--

..andy

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Sponix
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:43:17 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:


Polyphosphate dosers - Work much the same as Calgon powder and add
small amounts of a chemical to the water to reduce scale formation.
They do not "soften" the water. Need replenishment of the chemical
periodically (about every 6-12 months). This is straightforward and
usually involves just replacing a small cartridge.

Magnetic - No evidence they work in single pass (domestic)
environments but some that they do in industrial recirculation
systems.

Electronic - No evidence they work at all, none have ever been shown
to work in properly conducted tests. No credible theory why or how
they could work.


A couple of UK Universities (Portsmouth was one, I forget the other)
have shown that electronic conditioners *sometimes* have an effect but
have been unable to come up with a definitive explaination as to why
they work in some applications but not in others.

That's not to say I think people should buy them.

sponix

  #30   Report Post  
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Brian Sharrock
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:18 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:33:25 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)

********. It means a sewage treatment plant.

big snip

AIUI, dishwaters incorporate a salt-dispensing (and tablets boast of
containg salt) water softener; so are such devices 'caught' by these
regulations?


They *should* be, based on he legislation. Possibly there's an
internal check valve, but I've never heard of one.


Hmm, "interesting ", what?



How does the 'salty' discharge of a dishwasher used two times a
day by a large family compare against a water-softener used by a
two-person
household?


Less because the amount of water being softened is less.

I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing a
water softener [this fiscal year]. AIUI, the 'Kinetico' dual cylinder model
type only purges a
cylinder with about 16 litres of water. Intuitively the dishwater would
discharge more than this amount each time it was used. How much water is
softened on each dishwasher operation? I purchase about 1Kg of (dishwater)
salt per month ... how does this compare with the salt consumption of a
softener?
--

Brian




  #31   Report Post  
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Doctor Drivel
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners


"Sponix" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:43:17 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:


Electronic - No evidence they work
at all, none have ever been shown
to work in properly conducted tests.
No credible theory why or how
they could work.


A couple of UK Universities (Portsmouth
was one, I forget the other)


Cranfield

have shown that electronic conditioners
*sometimes* have an effect but
have been unable to come up with a
definitive explaination as to why
they work in some applications but not in others.


Which is quite different to the constant foolish allegations of this idiot
Parry fella of above: "Electronic - No evidence they work at all". I have
one and it works. This Parry idiot has constantly called me a liar...and all
the unis too. Amazing. He knows more about it than everyone else then.
Only on the Internet.

  #32   Report Post  
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Ian_m
 
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"Brian Sharrock" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:18 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:


big snip


I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing
a water softener [this fiscal year]. AIUI, the 'Kinetico' dual cylinder
model type only purges a
cylinder with about 16 litres of water. Intuitively the dishwater would
discharge more than this amount each time it was used. How much water is
softened on each dishwasher operation? I purchase about 1Kg of (dishwater)
salt per month ... how does this compare with the salt consumption of a
softener?
--
My Wizard dual cylinder uses less than one 25Kg bag of salt per month, thats
a family of four, showers each day etc. I paid £60 for 11 25Kg bags
delivered last time from a local salt supplier (look in Yellow Pages). It is
metered so only recharges after a certain volume (or after a week to prevent
stagnating water). It was supplied set to switch and recharge after
600litres but using a testing kit (B&Q 99p) I found it had run out at
600litres, so reduced this slowly over couple of months to its current
setting of 320litres before recharge. Water is just going hard now as
310litres usage as I find 100% soft water "too soapy" and hard to get soap
off. Allow a "tad" of hard through makes all the difference in getting soap
off unfortunately also scaling up the shower screen glass......which was
very clear with 100% soft.

My mates timed one that recharges at 2am, for a family of four and uses over
2 bags per month and even then he runs out of soft water as it is rated at
1200litre before charge, but that is only on moderately hard water, his
water is very hard and it clearly runs out...should have bought
metered...Also in a cupboard under the stairs (near rising main) so he
continually forget to check and refill the salt.

I got the wizard (Kinetico and Coleman as similar size) so it would fit
under the sink near the rising main making connecting easier (still a
compact plumbing nightmare) and not take space in any other cupboard. Our
new kitchem, shortly to be fitted, has a 300mm wide unit, specially for the
softener.


  #33   Report Post  
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Andy Hall
 
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:08:54 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:



I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing a
water softener [this fiscal year]. AIUI, the 'Kinetico' dual cylinder model
type only purges a
cylinder with about 16 litres of water. Intuitively the dishwater would
discharge more than this amount each time it was used. How much water is
softened on each dishwasher operation? I purchase about 1Kg of (dishwater)
salt per month ... how does this compare with the salt consumption of a
softener?
--


There are several questions here.

An ion exchange softener has several phases of operation:

- Service
- Brine fill
- Brine
- Brine Rinse
- Backwash
- Fast Rinse

http://www.btinternet.com/~aquariumc...rners_Work.htm

describes it reasonably well. All but the service are the
regeneration phase and the water used is essentially waste - this is
the 16 litres you mention. However, during service, the column that
has been regenerated will treat several hundred litres.

There are two basic types of softener - timer and meter based -
although there are variants. Each of these mechanisms control the
point at which a regeneration cycle is triggered. Typically, the
timer ones run during the night whereas the metered ones run when
needed. The argument is that the metering is a better representation
of when regeneration is needed. The better metered softeners have
two tanks and you therefore have continuous operation. It's also what
allows Kinetico and others to make a small unit even for large use.

Generally the metered softeners have an adjustment that controls the
rate of regeneration cycles in relation to volume of softened water
used. They may also have an adjustment to control the amount of
brine used each cycle, although that is really a function of the
capacity of the tanks.

So the parameters to look for are really amount of salt used for a
given volume of softened water based on a certain water hardness and
(if you care because of metering) the amount of water used for
regeneration. These give an indication of efficiency of resins and
the softener controls.

To give you a rough idea, in a house of 4 people with fairly heavy use
of showers etc., I get through roughly a bag of 25kg of salt every 3-4
weeks. Cost is £5-6, depending on where purchased and number of bags
bought.

Dishwashers generally have rather simplified softeners. I haven't
put salt in one for years, but IIRC, the regeneration cycle is usually
done after the wash and before the rinses. Since it is controlled by
the machine's controller, it is usually done on every cycle and may
not have the same number of stages as a larger softener. In effect,
though it is regenerating to make enough soft water for a complete
cycle, which the machine roughly knows, so the controls don't have to
be as sophisticated as for a stand alone softener.


--

..andy


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  #34   Report Post  
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Peter Parry
 
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:08:40 GMT, (Sponix) wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:43:17 +0000, Peter Parry
wrote:


Electronic - No evidence they work at all, none have ever been shown
to work in properly conducted tests. No credible theory why or how
they could work.


A couple of UK Universities (Portsmouth was one, I forget the other)
have shown that electronic conditioners *sometimes* have an effect but
have been unable to come up with a definitive explaination as to why
they work in some applications but not in others.


Portsmouth is quoted in a number of advertisements (usually saying
rather ambiguously that it has been "tested" rather than found to do
anything). Last time this subject came up I e-mailed Portsmouth to
try to get a copy of the report but they said they could find no
record of any such study or test.

The only test I could find was at
http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/techin...Treatment1.pdf.

This tested two magnetic and one electronic device. The conclusion
was:-

"The results of this study do not indicate any clear advantage for
any of the three devices tested versus a control for the inhibition
of mineral scale formation or the corrosion of copper.

The test protocol was designed to simulate the method of production
of hot water used in many larger institutional type settings that
employ a shell and tube heat exchanger for the production of
hot water. The findings do not support the claims of the
manufacturers regarding the ability of their respective devices (to)
prevent mineral scale formation in hot potable water systems.

The amount of mineral scale formed for the control versus device heat
exchange tubes was relatively constant, and proved to be an effective
insulator of heat transfer across the tube surface. The scale formed
was found to be a type of calcite (calcium carbonate), and had the
same crystalline structure for each heat exchange tube. There was no
discernible effect on the crystalline structure of the scale formed
by any of the tested devices."

The American Water Quality Association set up a Task Force to study
these devices which reached the startling conclusion that "there are
indications that physical water treatment works, that it does not
work..and that it may work sometimes"

At this point they decided to recommend the task force be dissolved!!

http://www.wqa.org/pdf/GovRelations/...orceReport.pdf

(the report does include references for a lot of other work so is
useful in that respect).

The DVGW report (www.dvgw.de) I couldn't locate on their website but
anything that turns "monitoring" into "Überwachungsanforderungen" and
uses words like Formbeständigkeitsprüfung and
Zertifizierungsanforderungen lacks simplicity.








--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
  #35   Report Post  
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Peter Parry
 
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On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:24:07 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

I have one and it works.


I understand you also see many of them during your regular visits to
the hospital.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/


  #36   Report Post  
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Doctor Drivel
 
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"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:24:07 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

I have one and it works.


I understand you also see many of them during your regular visits to
the hospital.


I do see many in hospitals. What wind are you incarcerated in. I'll take
you in some descaled Lucozade.

  #37   Report Post  
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The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Water Softeners and Water Conditioners

Brian Sharrock wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:14:18 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:33:25 +0000, Nigel Molesworth
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 23:09:47 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

"- a water treatment unit producing a wastewater discharge or
requiring water for regeneration or cleaning"

(AKA a softener)
********. It means a sewage treatment plant.
big snip

AIUI, dishwaters incorporate a salt-dispensing (and tablets boast of
containg salt) water softener; so are such devices 'caught' by these
regulations?

They *should* be, based on he legislation. Possibly there's an
internal check valve, but I've never heard of one.


Hmm, "interesting ", what?


How does the 'salty' discharge of a dishwasher used two times a
day by a large family compare against a water-softener used by a
two-person
household?

Less because the amount of water being softened is less.

I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing a
water softener [this fiscal year]. AIUI, the 'Kinetico' dual cylinder model
type only purges a
cylinder with about 16 litres of water. Intuitively the dishwater would
discharge more than this amount each time it was used. How much water is
softened on each dishwasher operation? I purchase about 1Kg of (dishwater)
salt per month ... how does this compare with the salt consumption of a
softener?

I get through 25kg a month - about £6.50.

Thats on a largeish house that squanders water in a very hard water area.

However I buy about 8 bars of soap a year, and probably as little shampoo...
--

Brian


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Brian Sharrock
 
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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:08:54 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:



I've become interested in the thread because I'm contemplating installing
a
water softener [this fiscal year]. ....


snip


To give you a rough idea, in a house of 4 people with fairly heavy use
of showers etc., I get through roughly a bag of 25kg of salt every 3-4
weeks. Cost is £5-6, depending on where purchased and number of bags
bought.


Thanks for your considered reply, and that from the others (Peter Parry and
'the Natural Philosopher(; all who give similar figures.




--

Brian


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rjs
 
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Sponix wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:05:11 +0000, rjs wrote:


My parents have a softener - installed in the last couple of years - and
no water meter.



Did they tell the water company?

sponix


Good question!

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM
  #40   Report Post  
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external usenet poster
 
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replying to Doctor Drivel, Scott wrote:
www

I also have the Vulcan V5000 electronic system and it works beautifully
Time and technology have moved on and some people are still stuck in
pre-historic times

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...rs-345408-.htm


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