(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window
(nothing that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a
sliding section and a screen. The latter has some kind of storm window
on the outside, so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner
glass. The view window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not
sealed, and it is just regular air in there, not some special gas.
(I've seen spiders in there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. The blinds are
down all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get
bright sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens
in the room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly? Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing
a lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?



--
--Tim Smith

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:46:54 -0800, Tim Smith
wrote Re Insulating over windows?:

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly?

Your idea will work fine. Try a sheet of this
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...358&lpage=none
cut to the proper size. Install with the shiny side in toward the
heated room. Decorate as desired.

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...

(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window
(nothing that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a
sliding section and a screen. The latter has some kind of storm window
on the outside, so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner
glass. The view window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not
sealed, and it is just regular air in there, not some special gas.
(I've seen spiders in there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. The blinds are
down all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get
bright sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens
in the room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly? Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing
a lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?
--Tim Smith



How about some 3M heat shrink window film, JUST IN CASE you want to look out
the windows, and then a set of cheap curtains from JC Penney? Penney's
always seems to be running a sale. I covered a 96" wide window for under
$100. You should be able to do it for half of that.

On Dec 27, 8:03*pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Tim Smith" wrote in message

...







(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window
(nothing that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a
sliding section and a screen. *The latter has some kind of storm window
on the outside, so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner
glass. *The view window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not
sealed, and it is just regular air in there, not some special gas.
(I've seen spiders in there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. *The blinds are
down all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get
bright sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens
in the room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. *Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? *Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? *Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? *Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly? *Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing
a lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?
--Tim Smith

How about some 3M heat shrink window film, JUST IN CASE you want to look out
the windows, and then a set of cheap curtains from JC Penney? Penney's
always seems to be running a sale. I covered a 96" wide window for under
$100. You should be able to do it for half of that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you dont mind darkening the room use R 7.2 polisuranite foam board,
paint it dark on the outside but not Black in suns exposure

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Dec 27, 8:03 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Tim Smith" wrote in message

...







(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window
(nothing that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a
sliding section and a screen. The latter has some kind of storm window
on the outside, so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner
glass. The view window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not
sealed, and it is just regular air in there, not some special gas.
(I've seen spiders in there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. The blinds are
down all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get
bright sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens
in the room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly? Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing
a lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?
--Tim Smith

How about some 3M heat shrink window film, JUST IN CASE you want to look
out
the windows, and then a set of cheap curtains from JC Penney? Penney's
always seems to be running a sale. I covered a 96" wide window for under
$100. You should be able to do it for half of that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you dont mind darkening the room use R 7.2 polisuranite foam board,
paint it dark on the outside but not Black in suns exposure

+++++++++++++++


Who? Me? I have no interest in applying anything to my windows. Who did you
think you were responding to?

Joseph Meehan wrote:

... most foam products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as
they are fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind
a fire shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

For instance, standards committee meetings full of risk managers from
insurance companies who only pay for losses vs new construction costs,
and drywall manufacturers eager to help write the code :-)

Nick

on 12/27/2007 8:46 PM Tim Smith said the following:
(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window
(nothing that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a
sliding section and a screen. The latter has some kind of storm window
on the outside, so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner
glass. The view window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not
sealed, and it is just regular air in there, not some special gas.
(I've seen spiders in there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. The blinds are
down all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get
bright sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens
in the room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets
of plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame,
on top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down
in summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet
with insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation
right on the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so
it doesn't look ugly? Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing
a lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?

Owens-Corning (Pink Panther) 1-1/2" solid styrofoam board?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
...


wrote in message
...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

... most foam products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as
they are fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind
a fire shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

For instance, standards committee meetings full of risk managers from
insurance companies who only pay for losses vs new construction costs,
and drywall manufacturers eager to help write the code :-)

Nick


You sound like the plumber who wrote to the rule makers telling them
how great acid was for cleaning pipes. After a number of letters back and
forth, they finally used words he could understand: It eats the *&%* out
of the pipes.

When that stuff gets in a fire it gives off deadly fumes. Those rules
usually are written after someone dies. I am old enough to know you
should learn form others errors.

Joseph Meehan


Take it easy on the fool. His parents never urged him to read.

Joseph Meehan wrote:
Your idea will work fine. Try a sheet of this
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...358&lpage=none
cut to the proper size. Install with the shiny side in toward the
heated room. Decorate as desired.

I did not check the specific product, but remember that most foam
products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as they are
fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind a fire
shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

And what about trapping moisture inside the new barrier/s as many
inexperienced folks tend to do?
I think I'd just opt to put this money toward new windows come spring
and fix the problem right. No one can 'see' the situation from here and
what the current installation looks like, but it seems likely to be
drafty windows.

On 28 Dec 2007 08:43:10 -0500, wrote Re
Insulating over windows?:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

... most foam products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as
they are fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind
a fire shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

For instance, standards committee meetings full of risk managers from
insurance companies who only pay for losses vs new construction costs,
and drywall manufacturers eager to help write the code :-)

Nick

Ditto on that.

"Caesar Romano" wrote in message
...
On 28 Dec 2007 08:43:10 -0500, wrote Re
Insulating over windows?:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

... most foam products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as
they are fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind
a fire shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

For instance, standards committee meetings full of risk managers from
insurance companies who only pay for losses vs new construction costs,
and drywall manufacturers eager to help write the code :-)

Nick

Ditto on that.


Go burn some foam products in your closed garage, with you in it. Let us
know how that works out compared to breathing something like firewood smoke.

Joseph Meehan wrote:

... most foam products are not rated for exposure to inhabited areas as
they are fire safety issues. Generally they must be installed behind
a fire shield like drywall. There are some very good reasons for this.

For instance, standards committee meetings full of risk managers from
insurance companies who only pay for losses vs new construction costs,
and drywall manufacturers eager to help write the code :-)

When that stuff gets in a fire it gives off deadly fumes...

No more than other building materials, eg plywood. I've served on standards
committees. NOBODY represents the public.

Nick

A cheap way of reducing heat loss is to cut a piece of bubble wrap to the
size of the glass and moisten it so it will adhere to the glass. I did this
on several windows on a enclosed sun porch and it did a fair job of
insulating. Use green bubble wrap and perhaps you won't need to kep the
blinds closed.

Clint
"willshak" wrote in message
...
on 12/27/2007 8:46 PM Tim Smith said the following:
(I suppose technically this isn't a repair question--but if I try this
I'll probably break something and need repaid advice, so might as well
start here! :-))

I've got a room with a couple windows--one is a view-only window (nothing
that opens), and one that is a more regular window with a sliding section
and a screen. The latter has some kind of storm window on the outside,
so there is a layer of glass, an air gap, and the inner glass. The view
window also has an outer and inner layer, but it is not sealed, and it is
just regular air in there, not some special gas. (I've seen spiders in
there, so know there is a connection to outside).

In winter, I have no need to look out these windows. The blinds are down
all the time (and I wish the blinds were more effective--if I get bright
sunlight, it makes it hard to see the TV and the computer screens in the
room).

I'd like (1) less heat loss through the windows, and (2) less outside
light in the room. Could I kill two birds with one stone here by
covering the inside of the windows with some kind of insulation? Maybe
make some kind of temporary wall-type structure out of a couple sheets of
plywood with insulation between that would fit in the window frame, on
top of the sill, that I could easily put up in winter and take down in
summer? Or something along that general idea--maybe just one sheet with
insulation behind it? Or maybe just put up sheets of insulation right on
the window, held in place by tape, and covered by the blinds so it
doesn't look ugly? Any pitfalls to avoid (like inadvertently causing a
lot of condensation some place that I really don't want to have
condensation?)

Am I at least going in a decent direction here, or is the whole idea
nuts, and I should just get new windows if I want to reduce heat loss,
and get some good curtains if I want dark?

Owens-Corning (Pink Panther) 1-1/2" solid styrofoam board?

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Yea. Those insurance companies are interested in reducing their cost.
The most expensive part of their loss is the loss of human life or injury.
They are on your side. The insurance companies spend a lot of time and
money looking at the results of fires and the damage done and what materials
did the damage.

Think nigh club fires.

I'm not too worried about fire. I sleep in the living room (about 10
years ago, I found that I liked a VERY firm sleeping surface--I sleep
better on a rug on the floor than on a bed, and if I'm going to sleep on
the floor, why not make it the living room floor, where I've got my TV,
and use the bedrooms for more storage?), so am about 6 feet from the
front door to outside. If I ever decide I do want a bed, the master
bedroom ALSO has a door to outside. And it is a one story house with
plenty of windows that could be broken and exited through, plus yet
another door to outside between the living room and master bedroom.

The two windows I'm interested in insulating are in the living room, but
are not near any sources of ignition, so would only become dangerous
well after any fire has gotten quite large--large enough that if I'm
still in the living room, I'm probably already dead on the floor.

--
--Tim Smith

In article 3kddj.9837$NL5.5822@trnddc05,
"Twayne" wrote:
I think I'd just opt to put this money toward new windows come spring
and fix the problem right. No one can 'see' the situation from here and
what the current installation looks like, but it seems likely to be
drafty windows.

I don't detect any drafts near the windows (but haven't done a test with
smoke yet--I just can't feel any draft).

It's not clear there is a problem. I would just like my electric bill
to be lower. :-) My house is about 2.5 times the size my apartment was,
so I expected utilities to cost more, but there is more to that "more"
than I was hoping for. (Although I probably underestimated, because I
did not take into account the fact that the apartment was a middle floor
apartment, so had heated rooms above and below it, and on three sides,
providing both heat and insulation).

The windows are colder than the walls, which is why I'm thinking they
could be improved. For example, in one of the living room walls, there
is a big window. It has two panes of glass. The wall right now is 70F
(according to a non-contact IR thermometer).

The living room side of the inner pane of glass of the window in that
wall is 60F. That window does not open, so I don't know what the inside
side of the outer pane is.

On the other outside living room wall, the wall is 71F. The living room
side of the window is 62F. That window DOES open, and opening the inner
pane, and measuring the inside side of the storm window, I get 53F.

It's about 33F outside.

I don't remember enough from my thermodynamics class 30 years ago to
know what the heck this means, but having two big areas of 60F on the
wall of a room that I want to have at 70F seems like something that I
might want to do something about--and if I can do it with a cheap kludge
rather than expensive new windows, I'm all for it! :-)

(I'll eventually get new windows, but even if I wanted to do that now,
I'd still go for a cheap kludge first, just to get some data on how much
the windows are affecting my heating bill. That would give me some data
to use to figure out how much better windows would be worth).


--
--Tim Smith

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 06:52:59 -0500, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Yea. Those insurance companies are interested in reducing their
cost.
The most expensive part of their loss is the loss of human life or
injury.
They are on your side. The insurance companies spend a lot of time and
money looking at the results of fires and the damage done and what
materials
did the damage.

Think nigh club fires.

I'm not too worried about fire. I sleep in the living room (about 10
years ago, I found that I liked a VERY firm sleeping surface--I sleep
better on a rug on the floor than on a bed, and if I'm going to sleep on
the floor, why not make it the living room floor, where I've got my TV,
and use the bedrooms for more storage?), so am about 6 feet from the
front door to outside. If I ever decide I do want a bed, the master
bedroom ALSO has a door to outside. And it is a one story house with
plenty of windows that could be broken and exited through, plus yet
another door to outside between the living room and master bedroom.

The two windows I'm interested in insulating are in the living room, but
are not near any sources of ignition, so would only become dangerous
well after any fire has gotten quite large--large enough that if I'm
still in the living room, I'm probably already dead on the floor.

--
--Tim Smith

Think about not waking up due to that fire. It happens and some
materials, the kind that we are talking about, can kill you before you even
wake up.

If you want to see how quickly a *large* room with high ceilings can
fill with thick, black, toxic smoke, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6rP2...eature=related

Sadly, the odds of anyone surviving this fire if didn't get reach the
exits within the first sixty seconds from the point of ignition would
be slim. Simply put: saving energy and money is great, but never put
your life and property at risk.

Cheers,
Paul

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 06:52:59 -0500, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Yea. Those insurance companies are interested in reducing their
cost.
The most expensive part of their loss is the loss of human life or
injury.
They are on your side. The insurance companies spend a lot of time and
money looking at the results of fires and the damage done and what
materials
did the damage.

Think nigh club fires.

I'm not too worried about fire. I sleep in the living room (about 10
years ago, I found that I liked a VERY firm sleeping surface--I sleep
better on a rug on the floor than on a bed, and if I'm going to sleep on
the floor, why not make it the living room floor, where I've got my TV,
and use the bedrooms for more storage?), so am about 6 feet from the
front door to outside. If I ever decide I do want a bed, the master
bedroom ALSO has a door to outside. And it is a one story house with
plenty of windows that could be broken and exited through, plus yet
another door to outside between the living room and master bedroom.

The two windows I'm interested in insulating are in the living room, but
are not near any sources of ignition, so would only become dangerous
well after any fire has gotten quite large--large enough that if I'm
still in the living room, I'm probably already dead on the floor.

--
--Tim Smith

Think about not waking up due to that fire. It happens and some
materials, the kind that we are talking about, can kill you before you
even
wake up.

If you want to see how quickly a *large* room with high ceilings can
fill with thick, black, toxic smoke, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6rP2...eature=related

Sadly, the odds of anyone surviving this fire if didn't get reach the
exits within the first sixty seconds from the point of ignition would
be slim. Simply put: saving energy and money is great, but never put
your life and property at risk.

Cheers,
Paul


Now, that should be shown to every college student who hasn't thought about
the beer+candles=danger equation.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:06:33 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

If you want to see how quickly a *large* room with high ceilings can
fill with thick, black, toxic smoke, see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6rP2...eature=related

Sadly, the odds of anyone surviving this fire if [they] didn't get reach the
exits within the first sixty seconds from the point of ignition would
be slim. Simply put: saving energy and money is great, but never put
your life and property at risk.

Cheers,
Paul


Now, that should be shown to every college student who hasn't thought about
the beer+candles=danger equation.


Hi Joe,

Twenty-five years ago, I survived a house fire when a friend placed an
electric [plastic body] kettle on top of an electric range and, in a
heavy mental fog, turned on the stove burner instead of the kettle;
she then left for the corner store to get milk. I was shaving in the
bathroom with the door closed and heard what I assumed to be a street
cleaner -- it turned out to be the smoke alarm I had installed just a
few months earlier. By the time I figured that one out (*), the house
was completely filled with thick, acrid smoke and fire had already
spread up the kitchen wall to the ceiling. Heading down the stairs, I
was choking so hard I though I would pass out -- the speed at which
this transpired still amazes me to this day.

Cheers,
Paul

(*) I know it's hard to believe anyone could mistake a piercing smoke
alarm for a street cleaner but with the door closed, the sound was
muffled and the pitch was similar to a vacuum street sweeper (a
pulsating or beeping alarm wouldn't have been so easily dismissed, and
bear in mind, when you're half asleep your house on fire may not be
the first explanation that leaps to mind). This should be obvious to
anyone, but if you have kids, make sure they recognize the sound of
the smoke alarm and know what to do if it should go off.