On Dec 27, 6:45*pm, Drew Cutter wrote:
I'm having trouble with the numbers . Rinnai has better warranties. I'm
looking for a system that support kitchen dishwaser (used allot) , 2
bath rooms , walk-in shower / soaker tub , gas powered. What are the
important numbers to help decide which is better ? gas flow ? Indoor vs
outdoor ?

Look at Takagi they have the only condensing 93% efficent unit, so
shop, you are not done...

I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before
purchase............

gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps
even a new meter and may
require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install
will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by
qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER
AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the
payback exceeds
the tankless warranty and expected life.....

in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures
may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must
be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.

standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low,
and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they
really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a
little.

in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands
the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.

when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and
turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and
sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.

regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap
too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year
cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.

good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75
or 100 gallon high 75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited
hot water without some of the downsides.

UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing
dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers
espically......

On Dec 27, 8:48*pm, " wrote:
I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before
purchase............

gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps
even a new meter and may
require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install
will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by
qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER
AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the
payback exceeds
the tankless warranty and expected life.....

in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures
may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must
be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.

standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low,
and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they
really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a
little.

in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands
the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.

when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and
turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and
sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.

regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap
too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year
cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.

good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75
or 100 gallon high *75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited
hot water without some of the downsides.

UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing
dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers
espically......

Alright Hallerb now that you said all the negatives and since you dont
own one, as I do, and since you put them down since you dont own one,
Tell the OP he will save money with one as I do. About 28% a year
andno ive never needed any maintanance in 6 years, so mine has paid
for itself. Gee its nice commenting on people that never used a unit,
but cut it down because they dont own one and think they are bad. Dumb.

On Dec 27, 10:26�pm, ransley wrote:
On Dec 27, 8:48�pm, " wrote:





I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before
purchase............

gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps
even a new meter and may
require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install
will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by
qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER
AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the
payback exceeds
the tankless warranty and expected life.....

in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures
may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must
be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.

standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low,
and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they
really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a
little.

in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands
the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.

when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and
turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and
sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.

regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap
too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year
cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.

good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75
or 100 gallon high �75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited
hot water without some of the downsides.

UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing
dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers
espically......

Alright Hallerb now that you said all the negatives and since you dont
own one, as I do, and since you put them down since you dont own one,
Tell the OP he will save money with one as I do. About 28% a year
andno ive never needed any maintanance in 6 years, so mine has paid
for itself. Gee its nice commenting on people that never used a unit,
but cut it down because they dont own one and think they are bad. Dumb.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

hey I just talked to a local fellow who bought a tankless last spring.
he complains of slow arrival of hot water. cold hand washing and says
his hasnt saved any money. he also says its a water and sewer waster,
because of the lag time between water on and hot water arrived

your claim of 28% I believe is really inflated. my 50 gallon 75K BTU
tank has a operating cost of under 275 bucks per year according to the
energy guide.

assuming your savings claim is true thats 72 bucks a year.

The OP tankless will easily cost 2 grand installed, given his large
number of loads, it will be a large unit.

before the OP goes tankless he should be informed of the possible
downsides to his expensive purchase.

plus others who have lived with tankless report these issues.

most notably they state the 2 best days for a tankless owner, the day
its installed and the day its replaced with a standard tank, their
words not mine......

If I get time I will google back previous discussions about tankless
and the actual owners reports

wrote:
On Dec 27, 10:26�pm, ransley wrote:

On Dec 27, 8:48�pm, " wrote:






I assume your going gas tankless but consider the following before
purchase............

gas will require a large new gas line directly to the tankless perhaps
even a new meter and may
require a new flue, all those BTUs have to go somewhere, the install
will be expensive, tankless will require routinue maintence by
qualified techniocians $$$ if the tankless quits working NO HOT WATER
AT ALL, the costs o do all this will exceed the standby losses, the
payback exceeds
the tankless warranty and expected life.....

in areas that get cold in the winter low incoming water temperatures
may generate lower output temperature, and chilly showers. unit must
be sized to maximum flow. OPs going to be a large costly unit.

standby losses of regular tanks, foam insulated today are pretty low,
and in the winter the standby losses go to heat your home so they
really arent lost. although in the summer they can add to heat load a
little.

in low flow situations like a faucet open a little to wash your hands
the heater may not trip on and you will have cold hand washes.

when you turn on a hot water faucet the tankless must detect flow, and
turn on burners before you get any hot water. so assume some water and
sewer waste, heck that cost may exceeed the standby losses.

regular tanks are long life dependable appliances and pretty cheap
too. say 500 bucks installed with a 10 year life. 50 bucks per year
cost thats not even a decent candy bar cost per week.

good luck with your tankless although you may be better off with a 75
or 100 gallon high �75.000 BTU tank, it will give you nearly unlimited
hot water without some of the downsides.

UNLIMITED hot water may result in people showering forever increasing
dramatically your water sewer and heating bill. teenagers
espically......

Alright Hallerb now that you said all the negatives and since you dont
own one, as I do, and since you put them down since you dont own one,
Tell the OP he will save money with one as I do. About 28% a year
andno ive never needed any maintanance in 6 years, so mine has paid
for itself. Gee its nice commenting on people that never used a unit,
but cut it down because they dont own one and think they are bad. Dumb.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


hey I just talked to a local fellow who bought a tankless last spring.
he complains of slow arrival of hot water. cold hand washing and says
his hasnt saved any money. he also says its a water and sewer waster,
because of the lag time between water on and hot water arrived

your claim of 28% I believe is really inflated. my 50 gallon 75K BTU
tank has a operating cost of under 275 bucks per year according to the
energy guide.

assuming your savings claim is true thats 72 bucks a year.

The OP tankless will easily cost 2 grand installed, given his large
number of loads, it will be a large unit.

before the OP goes tankless he should be informed of the possible
downsides to his expensive purchase.

plus others who have lived with tankless report these issues.

most notably they state the 2 best days for a tankless owner, the day
its installed and the day its replaced with a standard tank, their
words not mine......

If I get time I will google back previous discussions about tankless
and the actual owners reports


And I am doing nothing but changing out old tank units for
tankless units and hearing nothing but praise and admiration.

Typical costs are higher for the tankless units and if you
have hard water they do need to be backflushed every year or
so, but that can be done by the homeowner and the kits costs
19 bucks.

Energy savings are right at 25-30 percent. If the unit is
installed in the same place as the old tank unit, the hot
water will get to the fixtures in the same amount of time.

The whole house units require a 3/4" line and that can
sometimes be as much as 250 bucks or so, but usually there is
already a 3/4" line either at the unit, or very close. Out of
30 or so units installed, not one has had to upgrade the gas
meter. The flue is not even required on most outdoor units as
they vent themselves. I have had to upgrade the flue on three
indoor units. Total cost was about 75 bucks each time; take
out the old, put in the new. Big deal.

I think that haller has had a bad experience with someone and
is letting it take over his life. I own one and I install
them and they are good units.

You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?

--
Robert Allison �
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -

so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased

tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs,
for the wealthy.

someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.

can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?

on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has
freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do
their water heating indoors.

a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.

if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.

at least my post summaries many but not all of the possible downsides
to going tankless. before somone spends a grand or two they need to be
aware of all the issues both good and bad.

last time this was discussed one poster who lives with a tankless
complained it was noisey burners turning on and off constantly bugged
his wife.

will google some of those posts tonight.

its sad people want to improve their life, and save energy, but not
all of these things really improve things, and many arent cost
efficent at all

On Dec 28, 3:01*pm, " wrote:
at least my post summaries many but not all of the possible downsides
to going tankless. before somone spends a grand or two they need to be
aware of all the issues both good and bad.

last time this was discussed one poster who lives with a tankless
complained it was noisey burners turning on and off constantly bugged
his wife.

will google some of those posts tonight.

its sad people want to improve their life, and save energy, but not
all of these things really improve things, and many arent cost
efficent at all

If the tanklesss is sized right, and yes gas is the issue but it must
be tested under a full load of competing apliances with a Manometer ,
which few "Techs" figure it out, then its worth it, Boats are in the
catagory of happiest days, bought and sold, Tankless hacked in also.
Mine works because its set up right. The instructions are clear with
the units..

Question about using the chimney . Any dangers of using the chimney -
Fire wood vs gas fireplace along with tankless vent. I'm thinking of
putting in a soapstone insert and using wood in the future. As of right
now the fireplace is gas (hasn't been turn on in while). How far up the
fireplace does the vent piping have to be ?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

depends......

is the flue lined with ceramic liner or just bricks? before
considering use get the interior inspected with a camera.

even ceramic liners can have troubles.

you must be sure the hearth is large enough for the soapstone insert.

really need some estimates by chimney pros........

flue liners go all the way to the top

I guess i will have to wait until the hvac/plumber comes out to give an
estimate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

best to get at least 3 estimates, check references on all, and
remember lowest price isnt everything.......

respectful snip

hey I just talked to a local fellow who bought a tankless last spring.
he complains of slow arrival of hot water. cold hand washing and says
his hasnt saved any money. he also says its a water and sewer waster,
because of the lag time between water on and hot water arrived

I recently bought a Bosch Aquastar 2400E, and I installed it myself. No,
I am not in the appliance biz, but I can take care of my own appliances.
The Aquastar replaced an old, leaking 50 gallon natural gas tank-type
heater.

Now on to your comments: yes, arrival of tankless hot water is slow. It
has to be, since the tankless doesn't store any hot water. No, tankless
is not necessarily a water waster -- that depends. For short bursts of
hot water 1/2 hour apart, like frequent hand washing by family and/or
guests, one will use more water & gas to obtain hot water. For longer
duration uses, there is not so much wasteage.

In short, tank-type water heaters are good for faster delivery of hot
water, but at flow rates above their recovery rate, they *will* run out
at some point. Tankless water heaters have a noticeably longer lag time
before hot water appears, but once it does, it *never* ends; however,
too much demand on a tankless *will* result in cooler hot water.

I have been learning how to plan my domestic time around this new
tankless water heater in order to minimize water & gas waste. For
example, with the tank type heater, I would always take a shower
*before* running the washing machine and/or dishwasher so *I* wouldn't
run out of hot water (although something or somebody else might). I
would also check with the kids to see if they were planning on
showering, and if so, I would wait until they were done & the tank was
back up to temperature. Now, I can run washing machine, dishwasher, and
take a shower too and not run out. Or do them one right after the other
and not run out. Three at once seems to be the maximum limit though --
just like the instruction manual says. My shower heads are 2
gallons/minute flow. I have tested the heater's limit: with the Aquastar
thermostat set to 120F, I ran both showers and the kitchen sink all at
full flow hot for 5 minutes, and all held steady at 115F. I turned on
the washing machine full hot & all temps dropped to 105F in about a
minute. Not too shabby. I could probably have bumped the Aquastar up to
130F to compensate if I had wanted to.

your claim of 28% I believe is really inflated. my 50 gallon 75K BTU
tank has a operating cost of under 275 bucks per year according to the
energy guide.

assuming your savings claim is true thats 72 bucks a year.

Here are some facts comparing cost savings: My ancient tank-type heater
still had the yellow "EnergyGuide" sticker on it. The tank-type
estimated annual therms were 271. The Aquastar EnergyGuide estimate says
177. At $0.91/therm, that works out to $247/year for the tanker, and
$161 for the tankless, yielding a savings of $86/year. As the price of
natural gas rises, so will my savings. Also, in my case I have one child
about to leave home, and another who may go in a few years... allowing
the tankless to remain "off" for ever-increasing lengths of time, which
will mean even more savings on the gas bill as time goes on.

The OP tankless will easily cost 2 grand installed, given his large
number of loads, it will be a large unit.

You are right, and your point is well taken: it is essential to properly
size a tankless unit for demand vs. temperature rise and flow rate. That
said, it is also important to size a tank-type hot water heater as well.

Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same
Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also
qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007).
Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.

Add to that loss about $75 for 3/4 copper pipe & fittings, $35 for a new
3/4" gas flex line (gotta have a large one for high BTU tankless
installations; fortunately for me the steel line is 3/4" all the way out
to the meter), and 8 feet of new stainless 3-inch flue (can't use the
original tanker's galvanized due to the tankless' almost continuous
condensation in the flue) which came to $325; all of which were needed
to do this one-time tank-to-tankless conversion and I'm in the hole
about $700 (Next time, if there is a next time, the cost will
*theoretically* be just for the tankless heater alone). At the current
price of natural gas, payback time for choosing tankless vs. tanker will
take approximately ($700 tankless vs. tanker added expense divided by
$86/year savings) 8.1 years. I'm OK with that.

But IMHO there is more than just money involved here. I chose to go
tankless because it uses less energy in the long run -- a responsible
thing to do in this day and age, I believe -- and I have no regrets in
that regard. I am learning to adjust my lifestyle to compensate for my
new tankless heater's idiosyncracies, as previously mentioned. Plus,
there is the endless hot water advantage -- upon which someone else in
this thread sagely commented can also lead to "endless hot shower
advantage" in some circumstances ;^)

It is interesting to note that tankless water heaters have been in
continuous use in Europe (I lived in Belgium 1969 - 1970 and can't
recall seeing a tanker), Japan, and I assume many other countries where
natural energy resources such as gas, propane, and electricity have
always been more expensive commodities than they have been in the U.S.
where I currently live. So this "new" tankless concept is not really all
that new. And the energy savings are very real.

before the OP goes tankless he should be informed of the possible
downsides to his expensive purchase.

I agree 100% with that statement. An informed consumer is a wise
consumer. In my situation, tankless came out ahead. Your mileage may vary.

plus others who have lived with tankless report these issues.

most notably they state the 2 best days for a tankless owner, the day
its installed and the day its replaced with a standard tank, their
words not mine......

I don't feel this way, at least not yet, and I don't think I ever will.
I'm not a "tankless evangelist" (say, would that be a "tankless job"?
hehe) -- given my situation, I think I did the right thing. That said,
if tankless works in my situation, perhaps it would be an appropriate
choice for many other homeowners/residential income property owners as
well, if only they were aware of the option & did the research.

Thanks for reading me.

If I get time I will google back previous discussions about tankless
and the actual owners reports

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:33:09 GMT, maxodyne
wrote:

I recently bought a Bosch Aquastar 2400E, and I installed it myself.
[massive snippage; read OP for great details]

I'm not a "tankless evangelist" (say, would that be a "tankless job"?
hehe) -- given my situation, I think I did the right thing. That said,
if tankless works in my situation, perhaps it would be an appropriate
choice for many other homeowners/residential income property owners as
well, if only they were aware of the option & did the research.

Where are you located? I'm considering tankless for if/when we ever
build a house, but we have long cold winters up by Lake Ontario, and
the heat dissipation of the water heater tank in the basement isn't a
bad thing, per se, during winters, and the tank technology seems to
have simpler problems to solve compared with the tankless (plus, some
areas where we live don't have natural gas supply).

KLS wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:33:09 GMT, maxodyne
wrote:


I recently bought a Bosch Aquastar 2400E, and I installed it myself.

[massive snippage; read OP for great details]

[thanx for the compliment, I spent some time wanting my post to be accurate]


I'm not a "tankless evangelist" (say, would that be a "tankless job"?
hehe) -- given my situation, I think I did the right thing. That said,
if tankless works in my situation, perhaps it would be an appropriate
choice for many other homeowners/residential income property owners as
well, if only they were aware of the option & did the research.


Where are you located? I'm considering tankless for if/when we ever
build a house, but we have long cold winters up by Lake Ontario, and
the heat dissipation of the water heater tank in the basement isn't a
bad thing, per se, during winters, and the tank technology seems to
have simpler problems to solve compared with the tankless (plus, some
areas where we live don't have natural gas supply).

I am located approximately 40 miles northwest of Los Angeles,
California. I'm familiar with your climate; my father lives in Buffalo,
NY and keeps his sailboat at a marina in Toronto. I lived for 15 years
in the Eastern Sierra region of California where the temperature can
drop to below zero F overnight. I am aware of the complications that
cold weather can bring. And I really enjoy the Mediterranean climate
down here in Southen California! ;^)

I'm convinced that tankless is the way to go, with a few exceptions.
Lack of natural gas is not an issue as tankless heaters can run on
propane or electricity. If saving $$ in the long haul and/or
enviromental concerns are priorities, tankless is the solution IMHO.

Regarding the Lake Ontario region, one exception to the above statement
that comes to mind is the possibility of any standing water inside a
tankless heater freezing and damaging the heat exchanger. If your
basement never freezes, then that would be a good tankless location.
However, damage would certainly happen if the heater were mounted
outside the house -- and Bosch (and others) make externally-mountable
units. Tankless would not a good choice for a summer cabin, for
instance, unless any standing water could be completely drained in
preparation for winter. I suppose one could aim a 150 watt heat lamp at
a tankless heater to prevent it from freezing, but that might negate
some or all of the tankless' energy savings. Ideally, you'd want a
drainback valve as used on solar hot water collectors in cold country,
but I don't think the tankless heaters are available with such a valve.

Before installing my Bosch heater, I removed its steel cover just to
have a "look under the hood [bonnet]". There is a lot of stuff in there,
but I can't remember whether or not I saw a drain plug. I would not want
to take a chance on a $1,000 heater that might have some trapped water
that could freeze and do something expensive...

Let's see if anyone reads this & has some experience with tankless hot
water heaters installed in places where freezing temperatures are a concern.

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 10:29:41 -0800, maxodyne
wrote:

I'm convinced that tankless is the way to go, with a few exceptions.
Lack of natural gas is not an issue as tankless heaters can run on
propane or electricity. If saving $$ in the long haul and/or
enviromental concerns are priorities, tankless is the solution IMHO.

Well, environmental concerns are my top priority along with saving $$
while conserving energy, so I suspect I'll be installing one of these
babies if/when we build, along with passive solar heating panels on
the south side of the eventual house to heat the indoor space. I
would not install an exterior unit, only one in the basement, which I
would probably build with insulated cement block. I also am reading up
on how to heat the water with solar (Mother Earth News has some good
references).

I do have a colleague who installed a tankless recently in his city
house, so I should email him and ask for a report. And Buffalo is a
wonderful city; hope they can straighten out their budgetary messes.

just a nit pick point.

tankless electric are nearly never a good choice.

as the BTUs to heat multiple faucets at the same time can easily be
200 amps.

once a potential users checks the cost of a main service upgrade, to
200 amps for heating water and 200 amps for all other uses, they will
be in fiancial shock and likely need a new service drop from their
power company.

tankless are a nice concerpt if sized and installed properly.

but do remember the stanby losses help heat your home in the winter,
so they really arent lost.

i hope more tankless owners users report in with their experiences

" wrote:

i hope more tankless owners users report in with their experiences

When we did a major remodel/addition in 2004, we replaced one of the two 50
gallon tank water heaters in the house with a Bosch 125 gas tankless. This one
feeds the laundry, kitchen, and a half bath (no shower). We are very pleased.
It takes much less space than a tank, which was a major factor in buying it.

Because of our relatively light hot water use in the area, almost all the gas
use of that tank heater was standby loss. We put it in the summer and our gas
use dropped in half, from $20 to $10 per month. I figure this is about a four
year return on investment. Since this is Texas, water heaters tend to be in
unconditioned space, so lost heat is truly lost. Also the input water never
gets all that cold.

We get lots of hot water fast. Since there are no standby losses, we can set it
high enough that the dishwasher does not have to preheat. When the other tank
heater starts to go, I plan to replace it with a Bosch 250 (two simultaneous
use) or equivalent. We've got a big tub that my wife loves to fill. The current
tank heater doesn't quite do the job.

You're right, they must be installed correctly. But when they are, they are
nice.

-- Doug

wrote:

just a nit pick point.

tankless electric are nearly never a good choice.

as the BTUs to heat multiple faucets at the same time can easily be
200 amps.

You advice will seem less useless when you learn the difference between
power (watts or Btu/h) and current (amps) and energy (watt-hours or Btus.)

Ignorance is curable...

Nick

In article ,
says...

Regarding the Lake Ontario region, one exception to the above statement
that comes to mind is the possibility of any standing water inside a
tankless heater freezing and damaging the heat exchanger. If your
basement never freezes, then that would be a good tankless location.
However, damage would certainly happen if the heater were mounted
outside the house -- and Bosch (and others) make externally-mountable
units. Tankless would not a good choice for a summer cabin, for
instance, unless any standing water could be completely drained in
preparation for winter.

If your water heater location only gets a little bit below freezing,
some makes of tankless heater have freeze protection built in. (It's a
heat exchanger, after all -- just run the heater a bit when ambient
temperatures drop below freezing.)

My Takagi also has a remote sensor available for the ambient temperature
circuit -- that's used when the heater is installed indoors, but with a
short flue to sub-freezing weather, so that the freeze protection will
keep the exchanger warm despite subzero backflow in the flue.

Completely draining the heater is typically quick and easy for a
tankless setup, they're normally plumbed with draining and backflushing
in mind. For a summer cabin, I'd say completely draining the plumbing
off-season would be a good idea no matter what type of water heater you
have. A friend's summer home even has an air-compressor port on the
highest line in the house, so you can open one fixture at a time to blow
out any water trapped in low spots.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

KLS wrote:
....
I also am reading up on how to heat the water with solar (Mother Earth News has some good
references).

ONE MOMENT PLEASE!!! The owner's manual for my Bosch 2400E states that
"The 2400 E is not approved or designed for solar/preheat backup or high
temperature booster use". Why this is so, I know not -- and no
explanation is given in the manual. This is too bad because if I decide
to install solar collectors at a later date, I won't be able to feed
solar pre-heated water to the Bosch unit I just shelled out $998 for.
Also, I did not know about this until after buying the unit & reading
the manual.

Once upon a time, I worked for a company doing solar hot water system
installations. At the time, a popular setup was to run stored solar
heated water through a Paloma tankless. If the inlet temperature was
greater than the Paloma's thermostat setting, the heater remained off.
Same thing if a swimming pool was involved.

Perhaps someone will comment here as to why the Bosch 2400E is not
approved or designed to be fed pre-heated water.

[also, I'm going to start a new thread on a technical question I have
about my particular heater -- look for "Bosch 2400 E" in the subject line]

wrote:
just a nit pick point.

tankless electric are nearly never a good choice.

as the BTUs to heat multiple faucets at the same time can easily be
200 amps.

once a potential users checks the cost of a main service upgrade, to
200 amps for heating water and 200 amps for all other uses, they will
be in fiancial shock and likely need a new service drop from their
power company.

tankless are a nice concerpt if sized and installed properly.

but do remember the stanby losses help heat your home in the winter,
so they really arent lost.

i hope more tankless owners users report in with their experiences

Nit pick point well taken. I don't think I'd ever recommend electric,
other than to say it is an option and the product is available that way.
If you were *really* off the beaten path -- no natural gas lines nearby,
no propane available -- then electric might be the only option.
Especially if it were only for occasional use, as in a summer cabin in
the middle of nowhere. Most people I know who are heating *anything*
with electricity tend to spend more to heat it than they would have with
natural gas.

That said, tank-type electric water heaters get by with less standby
loss than gas units, since they have no flue to allow heat to escape.

wrote:
wrote:


just a nit pick point.

tankless electric are nearly never a good choice.

as the BTUs to heat multiple faucets at the same time can easily be
200 amps.


You advice will seem less useless when you learn the difference between
power (watts or Btu/h) and current (amps) and energy (watt-hours or Btus.)

Ignorance is curable...

Nick

http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/watt_calculator.htm

the bosch range of temp rise is likely not wide enough to accept pre
heated water, and scalding could result.

say water in 50 degrees out 130 degrees

pre heated water in 100 degrees, out 180 degrees.....

!!!OUCH !!!!

i suppose one could install a tempering valve to prevent too hot out.

but the too hot in may damage some delicate bosch input parts, perhaps
the impeller that trips the burners on.

wrote:
the bosch range of temp rise is likely not wide enough to accept pre
heated water, and scalding could result.

say water in 50 degrees out 130 degrees

pre heated water in 100 degrees, out 180 degrees.....

!!!OUCH !!!!

That sounds logical. OTOH, could also be a corporate "CYA" defense
against potential lawsuits and nothing more.

i suppose one could install a tempering valve to prevent too hot out.

but the too hot in may damage some delicate bosch input parts, perhaps
the impeller that trips the burners on.

I don't think it's an impeller-driven device that enables the burner, I
think it's a pressure switch -- but you may be right. Somewhere in the
manual I recall reading that when the outlet pressure drops 0.8 psi with
respect to inlet pressure, a sensor sends a signal to the processor to
activate the burner. So, it could be a pressure differential sensor, or
a flow rate impeller wheel as you suggested. Whatever it is, I would
like to increase its sensitivity in order to achieve lower flows of hot
water. Or, I suppose I could install a pressure regulator on the
heater's inlet side, which would serve to amplify the pressure drop if I
regulated it down far enough.

I'm in the process of writing a new topic for this newsgroup about that,
in the hopes that a Bosch 2400E techie will read it & respond.

On Dec 30, 7:39 pm, " wrote:
the bosch range of temp rise is likely not wide enough to accept pre
heated water, and scalding could result.

say water in 50 degrees out 130 degrees

pre heated water in 100 degrees, out 180 degrees.....

!!!OUCH !!!!

i suppose one could install a tempering valve to prevent too hot out.

but the too hot in may damage some delicate bosch input parts, perhaps
the impeller that trips the burners on.

Almost all "whole-house" tankless units have modulated burners or
heating elements, and raise the water temperature only to the pre-set
output temperature.

Well, I asked the friend who I thought had bought tankless to replace
his water heater, and here's what he said:

===
We ended up with a bit larger traditional hot water heater, with some
energy saving features. It's been working out well, as has our new
high-efficiency furnace and AC unit. A tankless hot water system was
not recommended for our home. Two independent assessments confirmed
it. One concern was that the water from the street is too cold. Also,
tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and maintain,
that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly.
===

And on top of the recent post from maxodyne alerting us to Bosch's
warning not to use solar-heated water with their tankless, I'm leaning
toward staying with the tanker and using the solar water heating, but
time and experience will tell.

Michael Thomas, Paragon Property Services,
http://www.paragoninspects.com wrote:
On Dec 30, 7:39 pm, " wrote:

the bosch range of temp rise is likely not wide enough to accept pre
heated water, and scalding could result.

say water in 50 degrees out 130 degrees

pre heated water in 100 degrees, out 180 degrees.....

!!!OUCH !!!!

i suppose one could install a tempering valve to prevent too hot out.

but the too hot in may damage some delicate bosch input parts, perhaps
the impeller that trips the burners on.


Almost all "whole-house" tankless units have modulated burners or
heating elements, and raise the water temperature only to the pre-set
output temperature.

Not sure if you caught the original thread (which I wrote) from which
is quoting ... the question was why Bosch states in the
installation instructions that "The 2400 E is not approved or designed
for solar/preheat backup or high temperature booster use". I hadn't
planned on using it as such, but I was disappointed that a) the heater
cannot be used in a Solar hot water system e.g. be fed solar pre-heated
water, and b) I didn't learn this until after the purchase was made and
the box opened.

My thoughts were that it really *cannot* be used this way because
something will break, or else it is a corporate disclaimer to relieve
them of any liability if their heater is used in a solar heating system.
The latter I understand, but I can remember once upon a time installing
Paloma tankless heaters as part of a fresh-water solar hot water system.
The Paloma would get its water from a large storage tank of solar heated
water; if the water temperature was greater than the heater's thermostat
setting, the water would pass on through and the heater would remain off.

Do you know why this heater cannot be used in a solar preheat system?

KLS wrote:
Well, I asked the friend who I thought had bought tankless to replace
his water heater, and here's what he said:

===
We ended up with a bit larger traditional hot water heater, with some
energy saving features. It's been working out well, as has our new
high-efficiency furnace and AC unit. A tankless hot water system was
not recommended for our home. Two independent assessments confirmed
it. One concern was that the water from the street is too cold. Also,
tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and maintain,
that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly.
===

And on top of the recent post from maxodyne alerting us to Bosch's
warning not to use solar-heated water with their tankless, I'm leaning
toward staying with the tanker and using the solar water heating, but
time and experience will tell.

KLS -- don't give up yet! The tankless water heaters go so well with a
solar hot water system -- assuming you'll be storing solar heated water
in a large, insulated tank, which is a common method. From there, the
pre-heated water gets circulated to your tankless which will remain off
if the water is pre-heated enough. No need for standby tanker loss when
you have oodles of already hot water stored elsewhere.

Just because the Bosch heater that I ended up with was not designed for
solar doesn't necessarily mean that they are all that way. I think we
have some expert appliance people in on this tankless vs. tanker thread;
perhaps one of them can tell us which tankless heaters will work in a
solar pre-heat situation.

I'd like to address two issues in your friend's statement:

* "One concern was that the water from the street is too cold"

Then that water will be cold regardless of how it is heated. I can't say
about other tankless water heaters, but Bosch makes higher-BTU models
for very cold inlet water applications. I would think that Takagi also
does, as it can get quite cold over there in Japan ;^)

* "... tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and
maintain, that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly."

Hmm, I wonder why anyone would buy such an appliance then? Certainly,
they are expensive. And certainly, people are buying them anyway. I'll
testify as to the expense -- OUCH! I *could* have just slipped in a
replcement tanker and have been done with it, for around $500. For those
who may have missed my "tank-type vs. tankless cost analysis" in a
previous post, I have included it below.

Preamble: I was not motivated to go tankless on cost alone (initially
high until payback time (8 years), then cheaper). I was willing to pay
more money up front in order to consume less natural gas in the long term.

================================================== ==

Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same
Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also
qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007).
Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.

Add to that loss about $75 for 3/4 copper pipe & fittings, $35 for a new
3/4" gas flex line (gotta have a large one for high BTU tankless
installations; fortunately for me the steel line is 3/4" all the way out
to the meter), and 8 feet of new stainless 3-inch flue (can't use the
original tanker's galvanized due to the tankless' almost continuous
condensation in the flue) which came to $325; all of which were needed
to do this one-time tank-to-tankless conversion and I'm in the hole
about $700 (Next time, if there is a next time, the cost will
*theoretically* be just for the tankless heater alone). At the current
price of natural gas, payback time for choosing tankless vs. tanker will
take approximately ($700 tankless vs. tanker added expense divided by
$86/year savings) 8.1 years. I'm OK with that.

But IMHO there is more than just money involved here. I chose to go
tankless because it uses less energy in the long run -- a responsible
thing to do in this day and age, I believe -- and I have no regrets in
that regard. I am learning to adjust my lifestyle to compensate for my
new tankless heater's idiosyncracies, as previously mentioned. Plus,
there is the endless hot water advantage -- upon which someone else in
this thread sagely commented can also lead to "endless hot shower
advantage" in some circumstances ;^)

wrote in message
...

[snip]
i hope more tankless owners users report in with their experiences

Tankless have been in use in Europe and Asia for many years, where they are
generally considered to be low-end appliances. They're used because they're
easier to install in apartments than a central tank, and because they have
little or no footprint in space-limited apartments. (many apartments may
only be 600-700 sq ft, so even the tank's footprint is significant.) In Asia
where I've lived, one of the marks of a higher-end apartment is that it uses
tanks instead of tankless.

I've used them in several apartments and always found them somewhat finicky
and less satisfactory than tanked units.

Therefore, when we upgraded our present house we installed a second hot
water tank that services only the master bedroom, with the other tank
serving only the kitchen and other bathrooms. The MBR has about 650 sq ft,
and we put the hot water tank in a small closet in the adjacent guest
bedroom. We get almost instant hot water, the temperature and water volume
never vary, and the unit is out of sight.

After experiencing tankless units of several different types, I wouldn't
consider one for my home. Regards --

On Dec 31, 2:00�pm, maxodyne wrote:
KLS wrote:
Well, I asked the friend who I thought had bought tankless to replace
his water heater, and here's what he said:

===
We ended up with a bit larger traditional hot water heater, with some
energy saving features. It's been working out well, as has our new
high-efficiency furnace and AC unit. A tankless hot water system was
not recommended for our home. Two independent assessments confirmed
it. One concern was that the water from the street is too cold. Also,
tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and maintain,
that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly.
===

And on top of the recent post from maxodyne alerting us to Bosch's
warning not to use solar-heated water with their tankless, I'm leaning
toward staying with the tanker and using the solar water heating, but
time and experience will tell.

KLS -- don't give up yet! The tankless water heaters go so well with a
solar hot water system -- assuming you'll be storing solar heated water
in a large, insulated tank, which is a common method. From there, the
pre-heated water gets circulated to your tankless which will remain off
if the water is pre-heated enough. No need for standby tanker loss when
you have oodles of already hot water stored elsewhere.

Just because the Bosch heater that I ended up with was not designed for
solar doesn't necessarily mean that they are all that way. I think we
have some expert appliance people in on this tankless vs. tanker thread;
perhaps one of them can tell us which tankless heaters will work in a
solar pre-heat situation.

I'd like to address two issues in your friend's statement:

* "One concern was that the water from the street is too cold"

Then that water will be cold regardless of how it is heated. I can't say
about other tankless water heaters, but Bosch makes higher-BTU models
for very cold inlet water applications. I would think that Takagi also
does, as it can get quite cold over there in Japan ;^)

* "... tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and
maintain, that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly."

Hmm, I wonder why anyone would buy such an appliance then? Certainly,
they are expensive. And certainly, people are buying them anyway. I'll
testify as to the expense -- OUCH! I *could* have just slipped in a
replcement tanker and have been done with it, for around $500. For those
who may have missed my "tank-type vs. tankless cost analysis" in a
previous post, I have included it below.

Preamble: I was not motivated to go tankless on cost alone (initially
high until payback time (8 years), then cheaper). I was willing to pay
more money up front in order to consume less natural gas in the long term.

================================================== ==

Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same
Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also
qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007).
Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.

wrote:
On Dec 31, 2:00�pm, maxodyne wrote:

KLS wrote:

Well, I asked the friend who I thought had bought tankless to replace
his water heater, and here's what he said:

===
We ended up with a bit larger traditional hot water heater, with some
energy saving features. It's been working out well, as has our new
high-efficiency furnace and AC unit. A tankless hot water system was
not recommended for our home. Two independent assessments confirmed
it. One concern was that the water from the street is too cold. Also,
tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and maintain,
that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly.
===

And on top of the recent post from maxodyne alerting us to Bosch's
warning not to use solar-heated water with their tankless, I'm leaning
toward staying with the tanker and using the solar water heating, but
time and experience will tell.

KLS -- don't give up yet! The tankless water heaters go so well with a
solar hot water system -- assuming you'll be storing solar heated water
in a large, insulated tank, which is a common method. From there, the
pre-heated water gets circulated to your tankless which will remain off
if the water is pre-heated enough. No need for standby tanker loss when
you have oodles of already hot water stored elsewhere.

Just because the Bosch heater that I ended up with was not designed for
solar doesn't necessarily mean that they are all that way. I think we
have some expert appliance people in on this tankless vs. tanker thread;
perhaps one of them can tell us which tankless heaters will work in a
solar pre-heat situation.

I'd like to address two issues in your friend's statement:

* "One concern was that the water from the street is too cold"

Then that water will be cold regardless of how it is heated. I can't say
about other tankless water heaters, but Bosch makes higher-BTU models
for very cold inlet water applications. I would think that Takagi also
does, as it can get quite cold over there in Japan ;^)

* "... tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and
maintain, that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly."

Hmm, I wonder why anyone would buy such an appliance then? Certainly,
they are expensive. And certainly, people are buying them anyway. I'll
testify as to the expense -- OUCH! I *could* have just slipped in a
replcement tanker and have been done with it, for around $500. For those
who may have missed my "tank-type vs. tankless cost analysis" in a
previous post, I have included it below.

Preamble: I was not motivated to go tankless on cost alone (initially
high until payback time (8 years), then cheaper). I was willing to pay
more money up front in order to consume less natural gas in the long term.

================================================ ====

Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same
Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also
qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007).
Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.

Add to that loss about $75 for 3/4 copper pipe & fittings, $35 for a new
3/4" gas flex line (gotta have a large one for high BTU tankless
installations; fortunately for me the steel line is 3/4" all the way out
to the meter), and 8 feet of new stainless 3-inch flue (can't use the
original tanker's galvanized due to the tankless' almost continuous
condensation in the flue) which came to $325; all of which were needed
to do this one-time tank-to-tankless conversion and I'm in the hole
about $700 (Next time, if there is a next time, the cost will
*theoretically* be just for the tankless heater alone). At the current
price of natural gas, payback time for choosing tankless vs. tanker will
take approximately ($700 tankless vs. tanker added expense divided by
$86/year savings) 8.1 years. I'm OK with that.

But IMHO there is more than just money involved here. I chose to go
tankless because it uses less energy in the long run -- a responsible
thing to do in this day and age, I believe -- and I have no regrets in
that regard. I am learning to adjust my lifestyle to compensate for my
new tankless heater's idiosyncracies, as previously mentioned. Plus,
there is the endless hot water advantage -- upon which someone else in
this thread sagely commented can also lead to "endless hot shower
advantage" in some circumstances ;^)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


How EXACTLY did you calculate your water heater cost savings?

Please refer to the details in my previous post. If you find errors, you
won't bruise my ego if you let me know what those mistakes are. There is
only one variable, and that is the price of gas, which in my case is
$0.915 per therm at the moment. My apologies for stating "at the current
price of natural gas"; I should have given the actual cost. However, the
price of gas this week or next month is irrelevant for the purposes of
*comparing* tank vs. tankless heaters (the thread subject & my current
ambition), as are weather, incoming water temp, etc. I am comparing one
type of gas water heater, a storage tank type, to another type of gas
water heater, a tankless type.

As to my estimated payback time of 8.1 years, that is based on the
current 91.5 cent per therm price. And my estimate is probably off by
10% one way or the other. As the price of natural gas goes up, which it
probably will, the payback time will shrink accordingly because the
tankless will consume fewer therms over a given time period than a
tank-type heater.

Regarding your comment on the downside of endless hot water, you raise a
valid point. Another poster previously did as well. So far, that does
not appear to be an issue in this household, which consists of two
teenage sons and me. In my case, sewer charges are flat-rated i.e. are
not tied to water usage. So the only lurking "hidden costs" for this
endless hot water -- and the gas to heat it -- would be minimal to
unmeasureable, I think.

After this morning's flurry of hot shower-takings, my older son took off
to spend new year's eve day with friends. Only two of us remain. The
current time is 3:30 PM PST, and no hot water has been used since all
those showers. I wonder how many times the old tanker would have cycled
on and off during that time? Wait! A lady friend is coming over later
this afternoon, perhaps she'll take an "endless" shower. Perhaps I'll
even encourage her ;^)

gas varys in price constantly, incoming water temp variations
depending on how cold weather is, amount of hot water used, presumably
with endless hot water more water sewer and gas will be used to heat
that water.

with so many variables how did you arrive at a exact figure?

On Dec 31, 5:38Â*pm, maxodyne wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 31, 2:00�pm, maxodyne wrote:

KLS wrote:

Well, I asked the friend who I thought had bought tankless to replace
his water heater, and here's what he said:

===
We ended up with a bit larger traditional hot water heater, with some
energy saving features. It's been working out well, as has our new
high-efficiency furnace and AC unit. A tankless hot water system was
not recommended for our home. Two independent assessments confirmed
it. One concern was that the water from the street is too cold. Also,
tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and maintain,
that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly.
===

And on top of the recent post from maxodyne alerting us to Bosch's
warning not to use solar-heated water with their tankless, I'm leaning
toward staying with the tanker and using the solar water heating, but
time and experience will tell.

KLS -- don't give up yet! The tankless water heaters go so well with a
solar hot water system -- assuming you'll be storing solar heated water
in a large, insulated tank, which is a common method. From there, the
pre-heated water gets circulated to your tankless which will remain off
if the water is pre-heated enough. No need for standby tanker loss when
you have oodles of already hot water stored elsewhere.

Just because the Bosch heater that I ended up with was not designed for
solar doesn't necessarily mean that they are all that way. I think we
have some expert appliance people in on this tankless vs. tanker thread;
perhaps one of them can tell us which tankless heaters will work in a
solar pre-heat situation.

I'd like to address two issues in your friend's statement:

* "One concern was that the water from the street is too cold"

Then that water will be cold regardless of how it is heated. I can't say
about other tankless water heaters, but Bosch makes higher-BTU models
for very cold inlet water applications. I would think that Takagi also
does, as it can get quite cold over there in Japan ;^)

* "... tankless systems are so expensive that to buy, install and
maintain, that any savings and convenience evaporate quickly."

Hmm, I wonder why anyone would buy such an appliance then? Certainly,
they are expensive. And certainly, people are buying them anyway. I'll
testify as to the expense -- OUCH! I *could* have just slipped in a
replcement tanker and have been done with it, for around $500. For those
who may have missed my "tank-type vs. tankless cost analysis" in a
previous post, I have included it below.

Preamble: I was not motivated to go tankless on cost alone (initially
high until payback time (8 years), then cheaper). I was willing to pay
more money up front in order to consume less natural gas in the long term.

================================================ ====

Here are some facts about my heater replacement cost: A new Whirlpool
50-gallon tanker was $430 at Lowe's, and my Bosch was $998 at the same
Lowe's (a popular U.S. homeowner's supply store). The Bosch also
qualifies for a $300 federal income tax credit (expires 31-DEC-2007).
Doing the math, I am now losing $268 for choosing to go tankless vs. tanker.

Add to that loss about $75 for 3/4 copper pipe & fittings, $35 for a new
3/4" gas flex line (gotta have a large one for high BTU tankless
installations; fortunately for me the steel line is 3/4" all the way out
to the meter), and 8 feet of new stainless 3-inch flue (can't use the
original tanker's galvanized due to the tankless' almost continuous
condensation in the flue) which came to $325; all of which were needed
to do this one-time tank-to-tankless conversion and I'm in the hole
about $700 (Next time, if there is a next time, the cost will
*theoretically* be just for the tankless heater alone). At the current
price of natural gas, payback time for choosing tankless vs. tanker will
take approximately ($700 tankless vs. tanker added expense divided by
$86/year savings) 8.1 years. I'm OK with that.

But IMHO there is more than just money involved here. I chose to go
tankless because it uses less energy in the long run -- a responsible
thing to do in this day and age, I believe -- and I have no regrets in
that regard. I am learning to adjust my lifestyle to compensate for my
new tankless heater's idiosyncracies, as previously mentioned. Plus,
there is the endless hot water advantage -- upon which someone else in
this thread sagely commented can also lead to "endless hot shower
advantage" in some circumstances ;^)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How EXACTLY did you calculate your water heater cost savings?

Please refer to the details in my previous post. If you find errors, you
won't bruise my ego if you let me know what those mistakes are. There is
only one variable, and that is the price of gas, which in my case is
$0.915 per therm at the moment. My apologies for stating "at the current
price of natural gas"; I should have given the actual cost. However, the
price of gas this week or next month is irrelevant for the purposes of
*comparing* tank vs. tankless heaters (the thread subject & my current
ambition), as are weather, incoming water temp, etc. I am comparing one
type of gas water heater, a storage tank type, to another type of gas
water heater, a tankless type.

As to my estimated payback time of 8.1 years, that is based on the
current 91.5 cent per therm price. And my estimate is probably off by
10% one way or the other. As the price of natural gas goes up, which it
probably will, the payback time will shrink accordingly because the
tankless will consume fewer therms over a given time period than a
tank-type heater.

Regarding your comment on the downside of endless hot water, you raise a
valid point. Another poster previously did as well. So far, that does
not appear to be an issue in this household, which consists of two
teenage sons and me. In my case, sewer charges are flat-rated i.e. are
not tied to water usage. So the only lurking "hidden costs" for this
endless hot water -- and the gas to heat it -- would be minimal to
unmeasureable, I think.

After this morning's flurry of hot shower-takings, my older son took off
to spend new year's eve day with friends. Only two of us remain. The
current time is 3:30 PM PST, and no hot water has been used since all
those showers. I wonder how many times the old tanker would have cycled
on and off during that time? Wait! A lady friend is coming over later
this afternoon, perhaps she'll take an "endless" shower. Perhaps I'll
even encourage her ;^)



gas varys in price constantly, incoming water temp variations
depending on how cold weather is, amount of hot water used, presumably
with endless hot water more water sewer and gas will be used to heat
that water.

with so many variables how did you arrive at a exact figure?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as to heat loss my old tank sprung a leak just after I showered,
hearing water running I investigated and found water spraying out of
the flue.

so I turned gas and water off and went shopping for a tank. the next
day I got a quick shower, the new tank would be in first thing in the
AM, i tended to shower after work.

I was happily surprised turned water on, ran and took shower the water
was still hot. near 24 hours after its gas shut off for the very last
time ever.

tanks reheat very infrequently, and the losses do heat your home. just
like other energy uses.

.................................................. .................................................. .....................
I am very interested in your stated savings and cost comparison. are
you basing this totally on the energy guides label?

because water heating cost depends on many factors, temperature of
incoming water, temp the tank or tankless is set at, cost of gas
varies each year.

do you have a meter on your tankless to find out how many MCFs it uses
in a year? and a meter on your old regular tank unit?

way too many variables, please list exactly how you found your dollar
savings per year.......

thanks i really want to understand

wrote:

snipped to conserve bandwidth & cut down on quoted posted clutter

I am glad you really want to understand, and I'm happy to oblige. Let's
work through this...
.................................................. ....................
I am very interested in your stated savings and cost comparison. are
you basing this totally on the energy guides label?

No, I'm *not* basing this totally on the energy guide (based on standard
U.S. Government tests) label, but I believe that is a good starting
point. A therm is a therm (approximately the heat energy of 100,000 BTU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therm), and the sum quantity of therms
consumed in a hot water heating event relates to the total cost of
heating that water. A poorly designed heating device will consume more
therms to heat (and store, in the case of tank-type heaters) that water
than a well designed heating device.

The Bosch 2400 E uses 177 therms per year, according to the energy guide
that came with it. You can get more information on this model at:
http://www.boschho****er.com/BoschHo...0/Default.aspx

After reviewing the Bosch efficiency factor specifications, you may want
to compare the estimated therm usage and/or efficiency factors of
tank-type heaters so that you can compare "apples to apples". Please
note that I am not advocating Bosch over any other brand; Bosch just
happens to be the brand that I purchased. There are several tankless
choices available in the marketplace, and one should shop wisely &
compare efficiencies, performance, features, warranty terms, options
availabilty, etc.

because water heating cost depends on many factors, temperature of
incoming water, temp the tank or tankless is set at, cost of gas
varies each year.
do you have a meter on your tankless to find out how many MCFs it uses
in a year? and a meter on your old regular tank unit?

No, I do not have a National Bureau of Standards lab here in my home to
measure this level of detail. But I do not need one either. The
efficiency factor of the Bosch 2400E is .80%, and the efficiency factor
of the Whirlpool 50 Gallon Flame Lock„¢ Natural Gas Water Heater is .58%.
(you can verify this by comparing heaters on the lowes.com website). An
efficiency factor of 1.0% would be a perfect, lossless conversion of all
BTU input to hot water output. Anything less than that represents some
loss of efficiency. The lower the number, the greater the loss. That
having been established, it all comes down to how much money one is
willing to spend in order to own a higher-efficiency water heater.

way too many variables, please list exactly how you found your dollar
savings per year.......

Again, please review my previous post. There is only one variable, the
$0.91/therm price of gas. Everything else is a fixed cost. Water inlet
temperature, thermostat settings, etc. would be the same if I ran both
tankless and tanker in a side-by-side comparison in real time, and one
would prove to be more efficient, and more economical to operate than
the other in the long run. It's all about the efficiency of the device,
and how much one is willing to spend to buy it.

I hope this helps.

wrote:
You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?

--
Robert Allison �
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -


so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased

tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs,
for the wealthy.

someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.

can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?

on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has
freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do
their water heating indoors.

a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.

if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.

I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just
one of the new popular items since people have become aware of
them and how much energy use they can save. I haven't seen
any of my customers complain about them. The last one that I
installed cost $845, the install was 300 dollars and she got a
200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and
2 kids. Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I
got a Rinnai and it has been performing for 5 years now. I
cannot compare energy savings head to head, because I went
from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but my
electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It averages
about 250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn
from hell and I am just trying to present the honest facts. I
think you are the one who is biased. It makes no difference
to me what the homeowner wants to install, I make money on the
whole job, not just one part.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

On Jan 1, 10:04Â*pm, Robert Allison wrote:
wrote:
You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?

--
Robert Allison �
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -

so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased

tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs,
for the wealthy.

someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.

can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?

on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has
freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do
their water heating indoors.

a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.

if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.

I don't sell them. Â*I am a general contractor. Â*They are just
one of the new popular items since people have become aware of
them and how much energy use they can save. Â*I haven't seen
any of my customers complain about them. Â*The last one that I
installed cost $845, the install was 300 dollars and she got a
200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and
2 kids. Â*Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. Â*I
got a Rinnai and it has been performing for 5 years now. Â*I
cannot compare energy savings head to head, because I went
from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but my
electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month Â*(It averages
about 250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn
from hell and I am just trying to present the honest facts. Â*I
think you are the one who is biased. Â*It makes no difference
to me what the homeowner wants to install, I make money on the
whole job, not just one part.

--
Robert Allison Â*
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

honestly it doesnt matter to me what anyone chooses to buy for their
home.

my issue with tankless are the large number of potential downsides to
a expensive supposed upgrade, which may disappoint the purchaser to
the point of going back to a regular tank.

such things as someone showering, and someone else washes their hands,
shower poerson may get nasty chill.

plus energy savings is hard to qualify,,'

since standby losses do help heat your home,

at least if someone going to spend a lot of money they should be aware
of not only the positives but the negatives too.

I KNOW MY satisfaction level here went up dramatically here when I
went from a 35K 40 gallon tank type heater to a 75K 50 gallon tank. I
would of gone 75 gallons but it was too large to fit the space.

often people dont know that high btu tanks are even available

wrote:

On Jan 1, 10:04 pm, Robert Allison wrote:

wrote:

You do know that in Europe and Asia tank units are non
existant, don't you?

--
Robert Allison �
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -

so you sell them? so your guaranteed unbiased

tankless are standard in europe since tank types are premium installs,
for the wealthy.

someone here mentioned a recirculation system for far away fixtures.

can recirculate be done affordably using tankless?

on venting for a indoor tankless, and since most of the country has
freezing weather at least occasionally the vast majority probably do
their water heating indoors.

a regular tank is say 40,000 bTUs a tankless perhaps 5 times that.

if your venting up a chimney that will require a larger flue.

I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just
one of the new popular items since people have become aware of
them and how much energy use they can save. I haven't seen
any of my customers complain about them. The last one that I
installed cost $845, the install was 300 dollars and she got a
200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and
2 kids. Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I
got a Rinnai and it has been performing for 5 years now. I
cannot compare energy savings head to head, because I went
from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but my
electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It averages
about 250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn
from hell and I am just trying to present the honest facts. I
think you are the one who is biased. It makes no difference
to me what the homeowner wants to install, I make money on the
whole job, not just one part.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


honestly it doesnt matter to me what anyone chooses to buy for their
home.

my issue with tankless are the large number of potential downsides to
a expensive supposed upgrade, which may disappoint the purchaser to
the point of going back to a regular tank.

such things as someone showering, and someone else washes their hands,
shower poerson may get nasty chill.

plus energy savings is hard to qualify,,'

since standby losses do help heat your home,

at least if someone going to spend a lot of money they should be aware
of not only the positives but the negatives too.

I KNOW MY satisfaction level here went up dramatically here when I
went from a 35K 40 gallon tank type heater to a 75K 50 gallon tank. I
would of gone 75 gallons but it was too large to fit the space.

often people dont know that high btu tanks are even available
Hi,
My family always take tub bath. Some times using big Jacuzzi.
When house was built I considered tankless but no one could give me
satisfactory guarantee on it. We ended up with two 50 U.S. gallon gas
heater. Did not have any hot water issues.

Robert Allison wrote:
I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just one of
the
new popular items since people have become aware of them and how much
energy use they can save. I haven't seen any of my customers complain
about them. The last one that I installed cost $845, the install was
300 dollars and she got a 200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and 2 kids.
Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I got a Rinnai and it
has been performing for 5 years now. I cannot compare energy savings
head to head, because I went from an electric water heater, to a gas
tankless, but my electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It
averages about 250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn from hell
and I am just trying to present the honest facts. I think you are the
one who is biased. It makes no difference to me what the homeowner
wants to install, I make money on the whole job, not just one part.


Greetings, Mr. Robert Allison General Contractor, and welcome to this
very interesting discussion about tank-type vs. tankless water heaters!

I'm moving your valuable contribution to an appropriately re-named
thread so that we can stay organized -- I hope you will follow it here.
The thread started out as rinnai vs. rheem tankless, but soon morphed
into a general tank-type vs. tankless water heater discussion. Then I
joined in, and renamed the thread as such. I won't ramble on about stuff
that I already covered. Hopefully you have picked up enough information
from the various posts in this thread.

Now then. You say that you have installed tankless heaters for your
clients, and they haven't complained about them. Plus, you own one
yourself. This is a good thing IMHO for this discussion group. I
recently installed a Bosch 2400E (natural gas) in my home a few weeks
ago, and have been mostly satisfied with the unit, as well as my own
installation. A dozen or more copper sweat-soldered joints and no leaks.
Anyway, I have a question that I hope you or someone else reading this
post can answer.

After installing my tankless heater, I discovered one thing the old
storage tank hot water heater was very good at: trickling a flow of hot
water into a sink. Tankless water heaters have trouble here, because
they depend upon a pressure drop to fire the heater. If that drop is
less than what the tankless sensor can detect (because so little hot
water is being demanded at any given moment), then no hot water. Or as I
have observed with my new tankless heater, after running full hot water
for a minute or so, and then turning down the hot mix down to below the
sensor threshold, the tap flows a combination of
hot-then-cold-then-hot-again kind of "checkerboard" hot water into the
sink. I know what's going on -- the tankless pressure or flow sensor is
reacting to my hot water demand and turning the burner on, off, and back
on again as I manipulate the sink hot and cold valves. So, the hot water
plumbing is delivering hot, then cold, then hot again water. That all
makes sense to me, but I want to improve on that if I can.

I know that tankless water heaters depend upon an inlet-outlet pressure
differential to trigger the burner (natural gas, in my case). I recall
reading that my Bosch 2400E has a pressure or flow sensor which detects
a 0.8 PSI water inlet/outlet differential. I have performance-tested my
home plumbing for any hot water "crossovers", and found none.

SO HERE COMES THE $64 QUESTION: Is there a way to adjust this pressure
sensor if it is adjustable, or to swap it out for a sensor of a
different, lower pressure differential value if it isn't adjustable; or,
is there any way to adjust the pressure parameters in the Bosch's
on-board computer/processor to lower the burner turn-on threshold so
that I can trickle some instantaneous hot water?

I hope all of that makes sense ... if not, someone please hammer on me
and I'll re-write my rather long-winded question into a shorter-winded
and more concise question if I can.

I have but one question. What is the maximum water temperature you can get
continously? I see you're in Texas. I suppose the incoming water probably
never drops below about 75 degrees eh?




steve


"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:UaDej.817$v_4.477@trnddc03...

I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just one of the
new popular items since people have become aware of them and how much
energy use they can save. I haven't seen any of my customers complain
about them. The last one that I installed cost $845, the install was 300
dollars and she got a 200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and 2 kids.
Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I got a Rinnai and it has
been performing for 5 years now. I cannot compare energy savings head to
head, because I went from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but
my electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It averages about
250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn from hell and
I am just trying to present the honest facts. I think you are the one who
is biased. It makes no difference to me what the homeowner wants to
install, I make money on the whole job, not just one part.

--
Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

S. Barker wrote:
I have but one question. What is the maximum water temperature you can get
continously? I see you're in Texas. I suppose the incoming water probably
never drops below about 75 degrees eh?

steve

Please don't top post.

I have not put a thermometer on it, but I cannot put my hand
in the water with just the hot water faucet turned on. You
can be scalded by the water coming out of the faucet.

Water temperature at the lake where our water comes from is at
60 degrees right now. I don't know the actual water
temperature when it comes into the house. But it is probably
about 60-70 degrees most of the time.


"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:UaDej.817$v_4.477@trnddc03...

I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just one of the
new popular items since people have become aware of them and how much
energy use they can save. I haven't seen any of my customers complain
about them. The last one that I installed cost $845, the install was 300
dollars and she got a 200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and 2 kids.
Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I got a Rinnai and it has
been performing for 5 years now. I cannot compare energy savings head to
head, because I went from an electric water heater, to a gas tankless, but
my electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It averages about
250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn from hell and
I am just trying to present the honest facts. I think you are the one who
is biased. It makes no difference to me what the homeowner wants to
install, I make money on the whole job, not just one part.

--
Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX





--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

maxodyne wrote:

Robert Allison wrote:
I don't sell them. I am a general contractor. They are just one of the
new popular items since people have become aware of them and how much
energy use they can save. I haven't seen any of my customers complain
about them. The last one that I installed cost $845, the install was
300 dollars and she got a 200 dollar rebate from the city.

I have one, with two baths, a kitchen, dishwasher and wife and 2 kids.
Haven't run out of hot water since I put it in. I got a Rinnai and it
has been performing for 5 years now. I cannot compare energy savings
head to head, because I went from an electric water heater, to a gas
tankless, but my electric bill went down by $45 dollars a month (It
averages about 250-300 per month).

You seem to be trying to convince people that they are spawn from hell
and I am just trying to present the honest facts. I think you are the
one who is biased. It makes no difference to me what the homeowner
wants to install, I make money on the whole job, not just one part.


Greetings, Mr. Robert Allison General Contractor, and welcome to this
very interesting discussion about tank-type vs. tankless water heaters!

I'm moving your valuable contribution to an appropriately re-named
thread so that we can stay organized -- I hope you will follow it here.
The thread started out as rinnai vs. rheem tankless, but soon morphed
into a general tank-type vs. tankless water heater discussion. Then I
joined in, and renamed the thread as such. I won't ramble on about stuff
that I already covered. Hopefully you have picked up enough information
from the various posts in this thread.

Now then. You say that you have installed tankless heaters for your
clients, and they haven't complained about them. Plus, you own one
yourself. This is a good thing IMHO for this discussion group. I
recently installed a Bosch 2400E (natural gas) in my home a few weeks
ago, and have been mostly satisfied with the unit, as well as my own
installation. A dozen or more copper sweat-soldered joints and no leaks.
Anyway, I have a question that I hope you or someone else reading this
post can answer.

After installing my tankless heater, I discovered one thing the old
storage tank hot water heater was very good at: trickling a flow of hot
water into a sink. Tankless water heaters have trouble here, because
they depend upon a pressure drop to fire the heater. If that drop is
less than what the tankless sensor can detect (because so little hot
water is being demanded at any given moment), then no hot water. Or as I
have observed with my new tankless heater, after running full hot water
for a minute or so, and then turning down the hot mix down to below the
sensor threshold, the tap flows a combination of
hot-then-cold-then-hot-again kind of "checkerboard" hot water into the
sink. I know what's going on -- the tankless pressure or flow sensor is
reacting to my hot water demand and turning the burner on, off, and back
on again as I manipulate the sink hot and cold valves. So, the hot water
plumbing is delivering hot, then cold, then hot again water. That all
makes sense to me, but I want to improve on that if I can.

I know that tankless water heaters depend upon an inlet-outlet pressure
differential to trigger the burner (natural gas, in my case). I recall
reading that my Bosch 2400E has a pressure or flow sensor which detects
a 0.8 PSI water inlet/outlet differential. I have performance-tested my
home plumbing for any hot water "crossovers", and found none.

SO HERE COMES THE $64 QUESTION: Is there a way to adjust this pressure
sensor if it is adjustable, or to swap it out for a sensor of a
different, lower pressure differential value if it isn't adjustable; or,
is there any way to adjust the pressure parameters in the Bosch's
on-board computer/processor to lower the burner turn-on threshold so
that I can trickle some instantaneous hot water?

I hope all of that makes sense ... if not, someone please hammer on me
and I'll re-write my rather long-winded question into a shorter-winded
and more concise question if I can.

I have no idea. That would be a question for the Bosch
company or a company that repairs Bosch equipment. I know
that there are different thresholds on different units, but I
have never attempted to adjust the threshold (nor have I had a
need to do so).

I am sure that it is possible, but I can't answer your questions.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

with input water at 70 degrees you have it easy. our incoming water in
late winter has been 39 degrees.......

its like taking water out of the fridge.

as to adjusting a tankless for low flow.

its probably impossible for a trickle.

combo of detection ability and the possiblity of overheating water and
possible tankless damage.....

imagine a trickle flow going out of tankless, the tankless burner
might turn that trickle flow into steam. imagine steam boiling
splashing out of a faucet while your washing your hands.