OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

On Dec 15, 7:16�pm, a wrote:
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? �All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

I dont know but I have had one fail and will never use another one.
when anything is the cheapest available its usually not a good deal.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?


Use them and let us know.

a wrote:
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?


I think NEC banned 'stab' connections on outlets used with 12ga wire. I
don't know what data they used if any to make that change.
I always use 12ga 20Amp circuits. When I come across any 'stabbed'
outlets or switches I will go ahead and pull the wires out and use the
screws. I can never seem to make the release things to work so I end up
pulling hard while twisting back and forth.
If you do use the 'stab' connectors then I would use pigtails.
I prefer to use the 'back-feed' type where you put the wire in the hole
and tighten the screws. I am comfortable using those without pigtails.
The back feed type do cost more though, over $2.00 each.
Kevin

I would think the real world experiences of thousands of people and tens of
thousands of outlets would consitute 'data'. It's been proven over and over
that the pushin connection is unreliable especially when in the middle of a
'series' run of outlets. I use them very rarely and only on a single
switch. I never use 14 ga on outlets so it's a moot point on them.

s

"a" wrote in message news:H7_8j.571$wy2.451@edtnps90...
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

a wrote:
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a
Hi,
I don't know about statistical data but just law od physics.
It may be quick and easy method but look at the contact area of
the wire vs. looping wire around screw and tightening it.
Spcially when the outlet is carry near capacity current.
I never wired using stab method. But I am sold on PEX.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

Are you publishing a book?

My personal experience won't matter then!

In article ,
Terry wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?


Use them and let us know.

I'm confused. How would that qualify as data as opposed to personal
experience?

S. Barker wrote:
I would think the real world experiences of thousands of people and tens of
thousands of outlets would consitute 'data'. It's been proven over and over
that the pushin connection is unreliable especially when in the middle of a
'series' run of outlets. I use them very rarely and only on a single
switch. I never use 14 ga on outlets so it's a moot point on them.

s

OK - this is *exactly* what I'm talking about - what 'thousands of
people'?? Where do you get this information?

a

Tony Hwang wrote:
a wrote:
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a
Hi,
I don't know about statistical data but just law od physics.
It may be quick and easy method but look at the contact area of
the wire vs. looping wire around screw and tightening it.
Spcially when the outlet is carry near capacity current.
I never wired using stab method. But I am sold on PEX.

(I *love* PEX too!) but I do think about the physics - is a larger contact
area better? Will I get a bigger jolt if I put my thumb on a hot rail than
if I put my pinkie on it?

a

Oren wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

Are you publishing a book?


No.

My personal experience won't matter then!


OK.

a

a wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

Hi,
I don't know about statistical data but just law od physics.
It may be quick and easy method but look at the contact area of
the wire vs. looping wire around screw and tightening it.
Spcially when the outlet is carry near capacity current.
I never wired using stab method. But I am sold on PEX.


(I *love* PEX too!) but I do think about the physics - is a larger contact
area better? Will I get a bigger jolt if I put my thumb on a hot rail than
if I put my pinkie on it?

a
Hi,
Jolt is a function of voltage, not current. Across car battery, not much
jolt.Current is a function of contact area or size of wire. Like thicker
wire has more current carrying capacity. If frequency of current goes
way high into R.F. range, skin effect comes into play. That is why R.F.
carrying conductor is some times hollow pipe or multi strand wire(Litz
wire), not solid core wire.
I am retired EE who used to work on mega size telecomm/computer site. On
mil-spec wiring, I never observed stab wiring. Probalby commercial
wiring is same.

a, 12/15/2007,9:49:16 PM, wrote:

is a larger contact
area better? Will I get a bigger jolt if I put my thumb on a hot
rail than if I put my pinkie on it?

In electronics when wanting to ensure a good signal or clean power
there are several fundamentals that must be observed. However when in
doubt the old adage "more copper" comes to mind. If there is less
surface area for current transfer from one conductor to another then
resistance will build and that translates to heat. The stab type
outlet has far less surface area in contact with the wire than the
screw type does. This in itself is a dangerous design when you use
devices that require much current draw from that outlet. I don't think
it's a matter of how secure the connection is rather than the contact
areas between the wire and outlet that are in question.

--
"My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating." ~
Ashleigh Brilliant

Personal experience here-- a lady at work has a mobile home she bought
new about 8 years ago. First her fridge stopped working, so she pluged
it into an extension cord to another outlet. I was out there doing a
heater or a/c maint. checkout, so I looked into it. Fridge outlet was
backstabbed. I think it was an end run. but not positive--this was
several years ago. I cannot remember if the outlet also had screws which
I used instead or if I replaced the outlet, but she has had no more
trouble with it. Next time I was there, several more plugs and lights
were not working-- same thing. Definitely would have been enough to
convince me they were no good, except I already thought that anyway.
Larry

On Dec 15, 6:16 pm, a wrote:
OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

Call it anecdotal, but like many others here, I've had multiple
failures of back stabbers dating back many years. I doubt that you
would never get any other view from any journeymen in the trade.
Analyzing the problem from an engineering standpoint, it seems
entirely logical that an overheated spring contact will loosen and
fail. Seems to me to be pointless to do a study of the likelihood of
that happening. The end user abuses the device, the device fails. The
manufacturer will cheerfully send you another 79 cent part if you
gripe about it, but why bother? The manufacturers are well aware of
this weakness and make backstabbers noiw that must be screw tightened.
My dimes worth...

Joe

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

Are you publishing a book?

My personal experience won't matter then!


I think he is looking for permission to use equipment that is questionable,
but easier for the novice. A pro can twist a wire on the terminal rather
fast

In the time spent trying to get approval, twenty connections could have been
made.

it costs a bit more but I love the kind you put the straight stripped
wire in and tighten screw.

fast easy removable and worth the cost

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:19:07 -0500, "badgolferman"
wrote:

In electronics when wanting to ensure a good signal or clean power
there are several fundamentals that must be observed. However when in
doubt the old adage "more copper" comes to mind. If there is less
surface area for current transfer from one conductor to another then
resistance will build and that translates to heat. The stab type
outlet has far less surface area in contact with the wire than the
screw type does. This in itself is a dangerous design when you use
devices that require much current draw from that outlet. I don't think
it's a matter of how secure the connection is rather than the contact
areas between the wire and outlet that are in question.

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.

How about the Canadian testing group ?
They tend to be more conservative.
Do they approve "stab" outlets ?

rj

"RJ" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:19:07 -0500, "badgolferman"
wrote:

In electronics when wanting to ensure a good signal or clean power
there are several fundamentals that must be observed. However when in
doubt the old adage "more copper" comes to mind. If there is less
surface area for current transfer from one conductor to another then
resistance will build and that translates to heat. The stab type
outlet has far less surface area in contact with the wire than the
screw type does. This in itself is a dangerous design when you use
devices that require much current draw from that outlet. I don't think
it's a matter of how secure the connection is rather than the contact
areas between the wire and outlet that are in question.

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.

How about the Canadian testing group ?
They tend to be more conservative.
Do they approve "stab" outlets ?

rj

I just took a look at some single pole switches that I have. They have both
screw and stab connections and are CSA (Canadian Standards Association)
approval 99-6416-2.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:17:39 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:38:33 -0700, "RJ"
wrote:

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.


U/L listing only means the fire is constrained inside the device if it
fails, not that the device actually works.

It is not news to anyone that does a little reading that those stabs
are unreliable and crap.

The ones that get heavy use will eventually cause problems.

Terry wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:17:39 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:38:33 -0700, "RJ"
wrote:

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.

U/L listing only means the fire is constrained inside the device if it
fails, not that the device actually works.

It is not news to anyone that does a little reading that those stabs
are unreliable and crap.

The ones that get heavy use will eventually cause problems.

What do you mean by "get heavy use?" The stab lock itself, or just
plugging in an appliance a lot?

a

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a
Are you publishing a book?

My personal experience won't matter then!


I think he is looking for permission to use equipment that is questionable,
but easier for the novice. A pro can twist a wire on the terminal rather
fast

In the time spent trying to get approval, twenty connections could have been
made.


Uh, no, my basement is already wired and I used the screw terminals.

a

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

If you are collecting data my personal experience is do not use push in
ever.

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:10:53 -0500, Terry
wrote:

It is not news to anyone that does a little reading that those stabs
are unreliable and crap.

The ones that get heavy use will eventually cause problems.

Yep, In the last house I lived the wife always used the same
receptacle to plug the vacuum into. I plugged something in one day
and a heard what sounded like a spark/sizzle sound. Pulled the cover
plate and receptacle too find burn marks at one wire on the back stab.

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:38:33 -0700, "RJ"
wrote:

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.


U/L listing only means the fire is constrained inside the device if it
fails, not that the device actually works.

UL listing means exactly what it says on the listing and labeling. It
complies with the standard that applies to that labeling. UL does not
write the standard they just test to the standard. If the standard is
inadequate don't blame UL.
--
Tom Horne

Tom Horne wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:38:33 -0700, "RJ"
wrote:

And yet, UL approves the "stab" outlets.

I would presume they do all sorts of controlled lab tests.
Their approval seal "should" be better than any folklore.


U/L listing only means the fire is constrained inside the device if it
fails, not that the device actually works.

UL listing means exactly what it says on the listing and labeling. It
complies with the standard that applies to that labeling. UL does not
write the standard they just test to the standard. If the standard is
inadequate don't blame UL.

???They are UL standards developed by or under the leadership of UL. UL
lab's reputation depends on the effectiveness of the UL standards.

Some standards may not determine if a device actually works. A lot do -
fuses, GFCIs. IIRC receptacle tests include 150% of rated current.
Receptacles should 'actually work' - except for the backstab feature. I
can't understand how that is allowed by the standard. Other than
backstabs receptacles are pretty reliable.


In addition to contact area, another problem is contact pressure.

--
bud--

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:16:39 GMT, a wrote:

OK - I've read the bitter vitriol in here used to describe the use of the
push-in option when wiring electrical outlets, but is there any study
someone can point to that has tested the long term difference between the
screw terminals and the push-in variety? All I hear is anecdotal - kinda
like the resistance a few have for using PEX in plumbing.

Aside from 'personal experience', is there any data?

a

I've only had problems with stab connections on a house with aluminum
wiring. The wire is so soft that the spring eventually mashes the
wire so flat that good contact is lost. In houses with copper wire
it's never been a problem. That said, when I replace an outlet when a
tenant breaks one or paints over it, I use the screws.

Backstabs were never approved for and never should have been used with
aluminum wire. IMHO dangerous.

Still have a house with aluminum branch circuit wiring?

--
bud--

bud-- writes:

Backstabs were never approved for and never should have been used with
aluminum wire. IMHO dangerous.

Yeah, but it happened. A guy who worked with my father asked me to
look at an outlet in his house that was not working properly. Some of
the plastic was actually charred. It was fed with aluminum wire
plugged into a backstab port. He's lucky it didn't get a little bit
hotter and start something burning. I think I told him to check all the
outlets in the house for the same problem (I was still in my teens at
the time, which is a long time ago now).

My own house has copper branch circuit wiring and backstab-connected
outlets and switches. I haven't found any problems I can attribute to
them, but whenever I'm working on a switch or outlet for any reason,
I'll switch to using the screw connections because I just don't trust
the backstab ones. Or I'll junk the existing switch/receptacle and
replace it with one that has rear-entry screw clamp connections, which
I like better than the side screws.

Dave