Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

I'm not exactly sure about your descriptions, however there was probably
only one neutral\ground buss in the panel. There should be a bonding screw
or jumper attaching the box to the buss. Sometimes it's hard to see through
all the wires. Another buss may have been added at a later date, which is
fine.



"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...
Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

have you checked ALL outlets in your home for proper grounding both
with that plug in tester AND running a 100 watt lamp between hot and
GROUND. This will tell you a LOT, about your wiring and doesnt require
disturbing ANYTHING!

Its possible for a test lamp to say fine while a 100 watt bulb will
glow dimly if at all

RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...
Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

I'm not exactly sure about your descriptions, however there was probably
only one neutral\ground buss in the panel. There should be a bonding screw
or jumper attaching the box to the buss. Sometimes it's hard to see through
all the wires. Another buss may have been added at a later date, which is
fine.

So you are saying that if it did originally just have that ONE buss,
it would have been connected (by screw or whatever) to the inside of
the PANEL? Is this required to ground the actual panel box?

Furthermore, if another bus was indeed added later, then all that was
necessary to bond the two was for the second one to make contact with
the metal of the panel?

--
John

wrote:
have you checked ALL outlets in your home for proper grounding both
with that plug in tester AND running a 100 watt lamp between hot and
GROUND. This will tell you a LOT, about your wiring and doesnt require
disturbing ANYTHING!

Its possible for a test lamp to say fine while a 100 watt bulb will
glow dimly if at all

The only tester I have is one of those simple plug in things with 2
amber lights and a red one, where they light up or not depending on if
there is or isn't a problem.

If I plug that into these outlets, it shows "correct" (i.e. it does
indicate a ground).

So, remember, these are connected to the bus bar that does NOT have
the main ground for house connected to it. So if the two buses are not
bonded, there would be absolutely no grounding for these receps. Would
this type of tester show no ground if the ground wire from recep went
to the panel and connected to a "ground bus" that had no connection to
ground?

I honestly don't get how these testers determine ground, and was
wondering how meaningful they were for this sort of situation.

--
John

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 06:08:21 -0800, John Ross
wrote:



wrote:
have you checked ALL outlets in your home for proper grounding both
with that plug in tester AND running a 100 watt lamp between hot and
GROUND. This will tell you a LOT, about your wiring and doesnt require
disturbing ANYTHING!

Its possible for a test lamp to say fine while a 100 watt bulb will
glow dimly if at all

The only tester I have is one of those simple plug in things with 2
amber lights and a red one, where they light up or not depending on if
there is or isn't a problem.

If I plug that into these outlets, it shows "correct" (i.e. it does
indicate a ground).

So, remember, these are connected to the bus bar that does NOT have
the main ground for house connected to it. So if the two buses are not
bonded, there would be absolutely no grounding for these receps. Would
this type of tester show no ground if the ground wire from recep went
to the panel and connected to a "ground bus" that had no connection to
ground?

I honestly don't get how these testers determine ground, and was
wondering how meaningful they were for this sort of situation.

It would have to run a little current through that ground wire. Of
course a ground that can handle a neon bulb to two might not handle a
20A ground fault.

BTW, if ground is missing the tester cannot recognize a hot/neutral
reversal.
--
43 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Never underestimate the power of stupid
people in large groups"

The original buss bar is isolated. A bonding screw or jumper needs to be
installed to bond it to the box. This is done for a main service panel, but
not a sub panel. Unless you know what to look for and where to look, you may
not find it through all the wires. If an additional ground buss is added, it
gets screwed or bolted to the panel and becomes part of the grounding
system. If you want to connect neutral conductors to it as well, I would run
a substantial conductor from it to the original neutral buss



"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...


RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...
Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

I'm not exactly sure about your descriptions, however there was probably
only one neutral\ground buss in the panel. There should be a bonding
screw
or jumper attaching the box to the buss. Sometimes it's hard to see
through
all the wires. Another buss may have been added at a later date, which is
fine.

So you are saying that if it did originally just have that ONE buss,
it would have been connected (by screw or whatever) to the inside of
the PANEL? Is this required to ground the actual panel box?

Furthermore, if another bus was indeed added later, then all that was
necessary to bond the two was for the second one to make contact with
the metal of the panel?

--
John

RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...


RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...
Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

I'm not exactly sure about your descriptions, however there was probably
only one neutral\ground buss in the panel. There should be a bonding
screw
or jumper attaching the box to the buss. Sometimes it's hard to see
through
all the wires. Another buss may have been added at a later date, which is
fine.

So you are saying that if it did originally just have that ONE buss,
it would have been connected (by screw or whatever) to the inside of
the PANEL? Is this required to ground the actual panel box?

Furthermore, if another bus was indeed added later, then all that was
necessary to bond the two was for the second one to make contact with
the metal of the panel?

--
John

The original buss bar is isolated. A bonding screw or jumper needs to be
installed to bond it to the box. This is done for a main service panel, but
not a sub panel. Unless you know what to look for and where to look, you may
not find it through all the wires. If an additional ground buss is added, it
gets screwed or bolted to the panel and becomes part of the grounding
system. If you want to connect neutral conductors to it as well, I would run
a substantial conductor from it to the original neutral buss


Not trying to get on your nerves.

You kinda lost me with the mention of the "grounding system". IF the
panel originally did just have the one bus, used for neutrals and
grounds (including main ground), would they have bonded it to the box
as you described? I'm still trying to understand if the panel box
itself is required to be grounded. Because, if it isn't, why would
they bother to bond this to the box (if there was no other bus bar)?

As far as the neutrals, none were added to that other bar--just the
new ground wires.

Can this all be determined at the *outlet* by someone if the correct
meters were used? In other words, all that has to be determined is if
there is a legitimate ground present (the neutrals are not an issue).
So if someone who knows what they were doing took a reading from H to
G (or whatever you suggest) at the outlet, would the readings (i.e.
volts) indicate there is or isn't a legitimate ground? Can that be
done?

Thanks!
--
John

At service panels, grounds and neutrals are bonded together. At sub panels
they are not. The bonding jumper comes with the panel, but it's up to the
electrician to install it if necessary. In your situation it should be
installed. If you test your outlet from hot to ground, and get a 120 volt
reading, the outlet should be grounded.



"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...


RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...


RBM remove this wrote:

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...
Cutler Hammer Main Service Panel circa 1960.

Is anyone familiar with these main service panels from that time?

This is a 100 amp service with breakers.

I had some receptacles grounded by running the ground wires back to
panel. I had assumed these panels just had a neutral bus and
everything was put on that since there were not that many grounds.
Indeed, on the top is a horizontal bus that is basically a round
piece
of copper (like a straw), and all the neutral/ground wires (incuding
main house ground) are wrapped around the bar--no screws.

I was surprised when I saw the electrician putting the new grounds
on
another bus. This one is lower in the panel (also horizontal) and
looks like a flat peg board, but this had screws for connections. I
didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like there was any wires
on
it.

Now that I am thinking about this, I am wondering if the two buses
are
bonded.

In the late 60s or early 70s a central AC/Heater unit was added and
they used aluminum wire for it. So now I am wondering if it is more
likely that the bus bar with the screws was original or is it more
likely it was added when they did the Air conditioning wiring? I was
distracted so I am not sure, but I did see a piece of alumium wire
around there, but not sure if it was to the breaker or to that bar.

Anyway, has anyone seen this type of Cutler Hammer panel from 1960?
What would your take on this be? IF both buses were original, would
they have been bonded even though only the top one was used? If the
second was added, would the design be such that it would be bonded
via
the case of the panel?

Obviously, I am new to this stuff, but I hope I was able to describe
it, even if I didn't use the correct terms.

--
John

I'm not exactly sure about your descriptions, however there was
probably
only one neutral\ground buss in the panel. There should be a bonding
screw
or jumper attaching the box to the buss. Sometimes it's hard to see
through
all the wires. Another buss may have been added at a later date, which
is
fine.

So you are saying that if it did originally just have that ONE buss,
it would have been connected (by screw or whatever) to the inside of
the PANEL? Is this required to ground the actual panel box?

Furthermore, if another bus was indeed added later, then all that was
necessary to bond the two was for the second one to make contact with
the metal of the panel?

--
John

The original buss bar is isolated. A bonding screw or jumper needs to be
installed to bond it to the box. This is done for a main service panel,
but
not a sub panel. Unless you know what to look for and where to look, you
may
not find it through all the wires. If an additional ground buss is added,
it
gets screwed or bolted to the panel and becomes part of the grounding
system. If you want to connect neutral conductors to it as well, I would
run
a substantial conductor from it to the original neutral buss


Not trying to get on your nerves.

You kinda lost me with the mention of the "grounding system". IF the
panel originally did just have the one bus, used for neutrals and
grounds (including main ground), would they have bonded it to the box
as you described? I'm still trying to understand if the panel box
itself is required to be grounded. Because, if it isn't, why would
they bother to bond this to the box (if there was no other bus bar)?

As far as the neutrals, none were added to that other bar--just the
new ground wires.

Can this all be determined at the *outlet* by someone if the correct
meters were used? In other words, all that has to be determined is if
there is a legitimate ground present (the neutrals are not an issue).
So if someone who knows what they were doing took a reading from H to
G (or whatever you suggest) at the outlet, would the readings (i.e.
volts) indicate there is or isn't a legitimate ground? Can that be
done?

Thanks!
--
John

wrote:
have you checked ALL outlets in your home for proper grounding both
with that plug in tester AND running a 100 watt lamp between hot and
GROUND. This will tell you a LOT, about your wiring and doesnt require
disturbing ANYTHING!

Its possible for a test lamp to say fine while a 100 watt bulb will
glow dimly if at all

I just read somewhere else about using a 100 watt bulb as a tester in
the way you described. Is this a product that can be bought, or a home
made type of thing?

--
John