I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?

On Jul 6, 10:03 am, Meat Plow wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:20:10 -0700, GaryMichael wrote:
I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?

I would replace the line if there were ANY doubt. Filter/dryer units can
be installed for contaminants but I've never heard of one to filter R22
from an R410 system.

I agree, but there could be problems running the new line above a
finished ceiling, that's why I'm seeing if there's any alternative.

"GaryMichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?


Just posted in another group... my comment is at the end.


"Noon-Air" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
ups.com...
I have an older heat pump and am considering replacing it with a unit
that uses R422. Replacing the line from outside to inside unit will be
difficult and might involve carpentry and wall board work. A couple
guys said the old line can be cleaned out, no need to replace. Others
have said it must be replaced. Which is correct?

If the lineset is correctly sized for the new equipment, it can be
flushed,
but its recommended by the manufacturers that when going from R-22 to
R-410a, the lineset should always be replaced.


Above is true, but I always like to run a new lineset with a complete
system.

Check with your local HVAC contractor. In allot of cases when you go with a change of using a different refrigerant, most newer units have stepped up the size of the suction line from lets say a 7/8" to 1 1/8" line for proper oil return.

Plus the newer units use a different refrigerant oil so you do not want any of the older oil to mix with the new oil. You can flush out the old oil but it does cost allot of money to do so,

--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
"GaryMichael" wrote in message ups.com...
I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?

Larger line for oil return??

Which crack jack box did you pull that one from??

"Moe Jones" wrote in message ...
Check with your local HVAC contractor. In allot of cases when you go with a change of using a different refrigerant, most newer units have stepped up the size of the suction line from lets say a 7/8" to 1 1/8" line for proper oil return.

Plus the newer units use a different refrigerant oil so you do not want any of the older oil to mix with the new oil. You can flush out the old oil but it does cost allot of money to do so,

--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
"GaryMichael" wrote in message ups.com...
I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:20:10 -0700, GaryMichael
wrote:

I've gotten conflicting advice on whether or not to replace the line
between inside and outside unit. Some say the current line with R22
can be purged and then used with 410. Others say no, can't be
thoroughly cleaned and will cause problems down the road. Unit is a
heat pump, if that matters. Any thoughts?


The thought that comes to mind is why change?

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com

We just went from the old to the new freon, and they didn't change our
lines. They did a pressure test to make sure there were no leaks, and said
the old lines were fine. We have not had any trouble at all.

James

For those who 'need to know.' The [rub] comes from the "different types of
oil." The older refrigerant R-22 [Freon] uses mineral oil The newer
refrigerant R-410a [Puron] uses a synthetic oil [PAG - poloyolyglycol]. The
mineral oil from years of old is not compatible because of miscibility. The
mineral oil tends to slug [thicken] under the newer refrigerant R-410a.

It is highly recommended that "if" you use the older copper lines with the
newer gas, you should be aware that the manufacturer recommends less than 5%
of mineral oil be allowed to mix with the newer gas. This concentration can
be tested with a refractometer. It is better to run new copper, but if you
have to use the older lines...... 5% is the highest concentration of mix
allowed.

The larger suction line is needed with the newer refrigerant because of
system capacity. If you choose to use a smaller refrigerant line, you
system capacity will suffer.

-
Zyp
"James" wrote in message
. ..
We just went from the old to the new freon, and they didn't change our
lines. They did a pressure test to make sure there were no leaks, and
said
the old lines were fine. We have not had any trouble at all.

James

I was very surprised when I saw what Coleman recommended for their:

Air Conditioning Condensing Units - 14 SEER Units
2 to 5 Ton, Single-Phase, R-22



Mfg. #
Nom. Tons
BtuH Cooling
Max. Fuse Size
Min. Circuit Amps
Liquid Conn.
Suction Fitting

FRCS0241BF
2
24,000
20
12.1
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0301BF
2-1/2
30,000
20
14.9
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0361CD
3
36,000
25
18.1
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0421CE
3-1/2
42,000
30
17.8
3/8"
1-1/8"

FRCS0481CE
4
48,000
35
20.6
3/8"
1-1/8"

FRCS0601BG
5
60,000
50
31.8
3/8"
1-1/8"




--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
"Zephyr" wrote in message m...
For those who 'need to know.' The [rub] comes from the "different types of
oil." The older refrigerant R-22 [Freon] uses mineral oil The newer
refrigerant R-410a [Puron] uses a synthetic oil [PAG - poloyolyglycol]. The
mineral oil from years of old is not compatible because of miscibility. The
mineral oil tends to slug [thicken] under the newer refrigerant R-410a.

It is highly recommended that "if" you use the older copper lines with the
newer gas, you should be aware that the manufacturer recommends less than 5%
of mineral oil be allowed to mix with the newer gas. This concentration can
be tested with a refractometer. It is better to run new copper, but if you
have to use the older lines...... 5% is the highest concentration of mix
allowed.

The larger suction line is needed with the newer refrigerant because of
system capacity. If you choose to use a smaller refrigerant line, you
system capacity will suffer.

-
Zyp
"James" wrote in message
. ..
We just went from the old to the new freon, and they didn't change our
lines. They did a pressure test to make sure there were no leaks, and
said
the old lines were fine. We have not had any trouble at all.

James

FWIW: There's nothing wrong with Colemen. And, the line sizing is fairly correct. Although on the 2-ton size 7/8" o.d. is a bit much. I think it likely goes with stocking less sizes in the warehouse. 7/8" is good to 3 or 4 Ton capacity depending on line length. [You can turn to Proper Piping Practices manuals for the refrigerant of choice.] You'll find that 5/8" is good for 2-Tons. 3/4" for 3-Tons. 7/8" 4-Tons, and 1-1/8" is good for 5 Tons for air conditioning applications using R-22 or R-410a.

If the suction return line is too large, you may have oil return problems depending if the evaporator coil is installed below the condensing unit.

This is why a professional HVAC/R contractor is needed. He can generally make the best choices for the particular installation. One that will provide years of trouble free operation.

--
Zyp

"Moe Jones" wrote in message ...
I was very surprised when I saw what Coleman recommended for their:

Air Conditioning Condensing Units - 14 SEER Units
2 to 5 Ton, Single-Phase, R-22



Mfg. #
Nom. Tons
BtuH Cooling
Max. Fuse Size
Min. Circuit Amps
Liquid Conn.
Suction Fitting

FRCS0241BF
2
24,000
20
12.1
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0301BF
2-1/2
30,000
20
14.9
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0361CD
3
36,000
25
18.1
3/8"
7/8"

FRCS0421CE
3-1/2
42,000
30
17.8
3/8"
1-1/8"

FRCS0481CE
4
48,000
35
20.6
3/8"
1-1/8"

FRCS0601BG
5
60,000
50
31.8
3/8"
1-1/8"




--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
"Zephyr" wrote in message m...
For those who 'need to know.' The [rub] comes from the "different types of
oil." The older refrigerant R-22 [Freon] uses mineral oil The newer
refrigerant R-410a [Puron] uses a synthetic oil [PAG - poloyolyglycol]. The
mineral oil from years of old is not compatible because of miscibility. The
mineral oil tends to slug [thicken] under the newer refrigerant R-410a.

It is highly recommended that "if" you use the older copper lines with the
newer gas, you should be aware that the manufacturer recommends less than 5%
of mineral oil be allowed to mix with the newer gas. This concentration can
be tested with a refractometer. It is better to run new copper, but if you
have to use the older lines...... 5% is the highest concentration of mix
allowed.

The larger suction line is needed with the newer refrigerant because of
system capacity. If you choose to use a smaller refrigerant line, you
system capacity will suffer.

-
Zyp
"James" wrote in message
. ..
We just went from the old to the new freon, and they didn't change our
lines. They did a pressure test to make sure there were no leaks, and
said
the old lines were fine. We have not had any trouble at all.

James

I fully agree what you are saying but what feed back I am getting from the manufactures is really some what surprising me when it comes to warranty but then again I can understand what they are going through. They tell me that they have lost so many compressors because of contractors not using the right size copper and evaporator coils. They want the evaporator coil to be around two years old before you replace a condensing unit using the existing coil.

I have learned to go to http://www.ari.org/ to verify any evaporator coil before replacing an existing condensing unit.

As you can see their 13 SEER condensing units are not that bad when using the existing copper
and their 13 SEER chart goes somewhat you say below.

Air Conditioning Condensing Units - 13 SEER Units
1-1/2 to 5 Ton, Single-Phase, R-22

Mfg. #
Nom. Tons
BtuH Cooling
Max. Fuse Size
Min. Circuit Amps
Liquid Conn.
Suction Fitting

ERCS0181BB
1-1/2
18,000
15
10.1
3/8"
3/4"

ERCS0241BB
2
24,000
20
11.8
3/8"
3/4"

ERCS0301BB
2-1/2
30,000
25
16.7
3/8"
7/8"

ERCS0361BB
3
36,000
30
18.9
3/8"
7/8"

ERCS0421BB
3-1/2
42,000
35
21.9
3/8"
7/8"

ERCS0481BB
4
48,000
35
20.6
3/8"
7/8"

ERCS0601BB
5
60,000
50
31.8
3/8"
1-1/8"


..
--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com
"Zephyr" wrote in message news:BeSdnU4BFvEXjQ3bnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@championbroa dband.com...
FWIW: There's nothing wrong with Colemen. And, the line sizing is fairly correct. Although on the 2-ton size 7/8" o.d. is a bit much. I think it likely goes with stocking less sizes in the warehouse. 7/8" is good to 3 or 4 Ton capacity depending on line length. [You can turn to Proper Piping Practices manuals for the refrigerant of choice.] You'll find that 5/8" is good for 2-Tons. 3/4" for 3-Tons. 7/8" 4-Tons, and 1-1/8" is good for 5 Tons for air conditioning applications using R-22 or R-410a.

If the suction return line is too large, you may have oil return problems depending if the evaporator coil is installed below the condensing unit.

This is why a professional HVAC/R contractor is needed. He can generally make the best choices for the particular installation. One that will provide years of trouble free operation.

I've been reading this thread with some
interest. Back in 1978 I installed
a Carrier 3.5 ton unit, which, at that
time, was the high efficiency model. It
was 8.5. At that time it was called
EER. Anyway, I was told in order to
get that efficiency (in '78) it needed 1
1/8" suction line. Actually, at the
evaporator and at the
compressor/condenser, it is adapted down
to a
smaller diameter .... I think, 5/8" or
3/4". The condenser was also huge
for a 3.5 ton unit ... it's about 42"
high. It's interesting how things have
changed. I guess if I ever have to
change to the new refrigerant, it might
be difficult. But, considering we are
selling the house this year, it probably
won't happen. Anyway, it's probably
time for a replacement anyway.
The new owners can worry about that.


Moe Jones wrote:
I fully agree what you are saying but what feed back I am getting from
the manufactures is really some what surprising me when it comes to
warranty but then again I can understand what they are going through.
They tell me that they have lost so many compressors because of
contractors not using the right size copper and evaporator coils. They
want the evaporator coil to be around two years old before you replace a
condensing unit using the existing coil.

I have learned to go to http://www.ari.org/ to verify any evaporator
coil before replacing an existing condensing unit.

As you can see their 13 SEER condensing units are not that bad when
using the existing copper
and their 13 SEER chart goes somewhat you say below.

*Air Conditioning Condensing Units — 13 SEER Units*
*1-1/2 to 5 Ton, Single-Phase, R-22*


*Mfg. #*



*Nom. Tons*



*BtuH Cooling*



*Max. Fuse Size*



*Min. Circuit Amps*



*Liquid Conn.*



*Suction Fitting*

ERCS0181BB



1-1/2



18,000



15



10.1



3/8"



3/4"

ERCS0241BB



2



24,000



20



11.8



3/8"



3/4"

ERCS0301BB



2-1/2



30,000



25



16.7



3/8"



7/8"

ERCS0361BB



3



36,000



30



18.9



3/8"



7/8"

ERCS0421BB



3-1/2



42,000



35



21.9



3/8"



7/8"

ERCS0481BB



4



48,000



35



20.6



3/8"



7/8"

ERCS0601BB



5



60,000



50



31.8



3/8"



1-1/8"

.
--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com http://www.EnergyEqualizers.com

"Zephyr" wrote in
message news:BeSdnU4BFvEXjQ3bnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@championbroa dband.com...
FWIW: There's nothing wrong with Colemen. And, the line sizing is
fairly correct. Although on the 2-ton size 7/8" o.d. is a bit
much. I think it likely goes with stocking less sizes in the
warehouse. 7/8" is good to 3 or 4 Ton capacity depending on line
length. [You can turn to Proper Piping Practices manuals for the
refrigerant of choice.] You'll find that 5/8" is good for 2-Tons.
3/4" for 3-Tons. 7/8" 4-Tons, and 1-1/8" is good for 5 Tons for air
conditioning applications using R-22 or R-410a.

If the suction return line is too large, you may have oil return
problems depending if the evaporator coil is installed below the
condensing unit.

This is why a professional HVAC/R contractor is needed. He can
generally make the best choices for the particular installation.
One that will provide years of trouble free operation.

"Zephyr" writes:

It is highly recommended that "if" you use the older copper lines with the
newer gas, you should be aware that the manufacturer recommends less than 5%
of mineral oil be allowed to mix with the newer gas. This concentration can
be tested with a refractometer. It is better to run new copper, but if you
have to use the older lines...... 5% is the highest concentration of mix
allowed.

In cases where it's difficult to run new lines, can the old ones be
flushed with solvent to remove the old oil?

Dave

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
"Zephyr" writes:

It is highly recommended that "if" you use the older copper lines with
the
newer gas, you should be aware that the manufacturer recommends less than
5%
of mineral oil be allowed to mix with the newer gas. This concentration
can
be tested with a refractometer. It is better to run new copper, but if
you
have to use the older lines...... 5% is the highest concentration of mix
allowed.

In cases where it's difficult to run new lines, can the old ones be
flushed with solvent to remove the old oil?

Dave


Yes