Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

On May 25, 4:31 pm, Meat Plow wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2007 13:04:56 -0700, KOS wrote:
Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

Decent. York is probably the quietest.
--
#1 Offishul Ruiner of Usenet, March 2007
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Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004
COOSN-266-06-25794

thanks for the prompt reply.
I tried looking for reviews on Lennox- my choise is between American
Standard and Lennox

"KOS" wrote in message
s.com...
On May 25, 4:31 pm, Meat Plow wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2007 13:04:56 -0700, KOS wrote:
Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

Decent. York is probably the quietest.
--
#1 Offishul Ruiner of Usenet, March 2007
#1 Usenet Asshole, March 2007
#1 Bartlo Pset, March 13-24 2007
#10 Most hated Usenetizen of all time
#8 AUK Hate Machine Cog
Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004
COOSN-266-06-25794

thanks for the prompt reply.
I tried looking for reviews on Lennox- my choise is between American
Standard and Lennox


http://www.consumersearch.com/www/ho...ers/index.html

Just had a maintenance check up on my central air. When talking to the
mechanic he recommended York or Rhreem. Also buy the highest Seer # you
can afford, save on electric bills.
Nancy

N.J. Crane wrote:

Just had a maintenance check up on my central air. When talking to the
mechanic he recommended York or Rhreem. Also buy the highest Seer # you
can afford, save on electric bills.
Nancy


The SEER Rating of an A/C is only one factor in reducing energy costs,
and in some situations the higher SEER won't achieve any savings over a
lower SEER unit.
http://www.acca.org/consumer/comfort.php
http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditio...tent-heat.html

- udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT
http://www.udarrell.com/
http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm ***
http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html ***
http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html
Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

udarrell wrote:

... in some situations the higher SEER won't achieve any savings over a
lower SEER unit.

Why not?

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

I musta missed that beatitude.

Nick

udarrell wrote:

... in some situations the higher SEER won't achieve any savings over
a lower SEER unit

Why?

http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditio...tent-heat.html

has a chart with the first two columns below...

Relative Humidity/Maximum Comfortable Temperature

RH Temp Atemp APMV Ftemp FPMV

60% 78.5F .221389 81.352 .2114619
50% 79.0F 78.934 .221450 81.727 .2113076
40% 79.5F 79.379 .221356 82.155 .2214492
30% 80.0F 79.842 .221377 82.549 .2213459

The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard based on surveys of 21,000 people
says 78.5 F at 60% RH would have a +0.221 "Predicted Mean Vote" (very
slightly warm) on a comfort scale with -3 = cold, 0 = comfortable, and
+3 = hot. The upper ASHRAE summer comfort zone ends with PMV = +0.5.
Lowering the RH raises the upper comfort temp slightly, about 0.8 F,
according to the calculation below, but raising the air velocity from
0.1 to 0.1 m/s (the F vs A temp numbers above) raises it more, by about
4 F. In an airtight house, we might save energy by sitting under a slow
ceiling fan and lowering the humidity and raising the temperature, and
zone the house with indoor humidification...

Nick

50 CLO =.5'CLOTHING INSULATION (CLO)
60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
70 WME=0'external work (met)
80 TA=(78.934-32)/1.8'air temp (C)
90 TR=TA'mean radiant temp (C)
100 VEL=.1'air velocity
120 RH=40'relative humidity (%)
130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa
150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor
210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance
220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values
300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
310 XN=TCLA/100
320 XF=XN
330 N=0'number of iterations
340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
390 N=N+1
400 IF N150 GOTO 550
410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350
420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating
460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient
520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote
530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied
540 GOTO 580
550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
580 PRINT 1.8*TA+32,RH,CLO,PMV

wrote:

udarrell wrote:


... in some situations the higher SEER won't achieve any savings over
a lower SEER unit



Why?
http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditio...tent-heat.html

has a chart with the first two columns below...

Relative Humidity/Maximum Comfortable Temperature

RH Temp Atemp APMV Ftemp FPMV

60% 78.5F .221389 81.352 .2114619
50% 79.0F 78.934 .221450 81.727 .2113076
40% 79.5F 79.379 .221356 82.155 .2214492
30% 80.0F 79.842 .221377 82.549 .2213459

The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard based on surveys of 21,000 people
says 78.5 F at 60% RH would have a +0.221 "Predicted Mean Vote" (very
slightly warm) on a comfort scale with -3 = cold, 0 = comfortable, and
+3 = hot. The upper ASHRAE summer comfort zone ends with PMV = +0.5.
Lowering the RH raises the upper comfort temp slightly, about 0.8 F,
according to the calculation below, but raising the air velocity from
0.1 to 0.1 m/s (the F vs A temp numbers above) raises it more, by about
4 F. In an airtight house, we might save energy by sitting under a slow
ceiling fan and lowering the humidity and raising the temperature, and
zone the house with indoor humidification... (dehumidification?)

Nick

50 CLO =.5'CLOTHING INSULATION (CLO)
60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
70 WME=0'external work (met)
80 TA=(78.934-32)/1.8'air temp (C)
90 TR=TA'mean radiant temp (C)
100 VEL=.1'air velocity
120 RH=40'relative humidity (%)
130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa
150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor
210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance
220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values
300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
310 XN=TCLA/100
320 XF=XN
330 N=0'number of iterations
340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
390 N=N+1
400 IF N150 GOTO 550
410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350
420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating
460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient
520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote
530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied
540 GOTO 580
550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
580 PRINT 1.8*TA+32,RH,CLO,PMV


A lot of factors enter into the individual human comfort level equation.
Please put all those factors into meaningful communication content that
techs and consumers can use for the benefit of everyone.
Very interesting Nick, Villanova has to be an enlightening institution.
Do you have a website? - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT
http://www.udarrell.com/
http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm ***
http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html ***
http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html
Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

udarrell wrote:

... in some situations the higher SEER won't achieve any savings over
a lower SEER unit

Why?

... In an airtight house, we might save energy by sitting under a slow
ceiling fan and lowering the humidity and raising the temperature, and
zone the house with indoor humidification... (dehumidification?)

HUmidification. Make the house dry and evaporate water to cool occupied rooms.

50 CLO =.5'CLOTHING INSULATION (CLO)
60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met)
70 WME=0'external work (met)
80 TA=(78.934-32)/1.8'air temp (C)
90 TR=TA'mean radiant temp (C)
100 VEL=.1'air velocity
120 RH=40'relative humidity (%)
130 PA=0'water vapor pressure
140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa
150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa
160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W)
170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2)
180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2)
190 MW=M-W'internal heat production
200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor
210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance
220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K)
230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K)
250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp
260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values
300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4
310 XN=TCLA/100
320 XF=XN
330 N=0'number of iterations
340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met
350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance
360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25
370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN
380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC)
390 N=N+1
400 IF N150 GOTO 550
410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350
420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C)
440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin
450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating
460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss
470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss
480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation
490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection
510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient
520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote
530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied
540 GOTO 580
550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100
580 PRINT 1.8*TA+32,RH,CLO,PMV

A lot of factors enter into the individual human comfort level equation.
Please put all those factors into meaningful communication content that
techs and consumers can use for the benefit of everyone.

See above :-)

Villanova has to be an enlightening institution.

In some ways, altho I have little to do with them.

Do you have a website?

Sure.

http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick

Nick

I think the biggest consideration is finding a competent, honest contractor
who will determine exactly what kind and size unit that you need.

My outside unit is 18 years old (Trane) and still working Ok, but in the
summer my electricity bill is really high and my unit seems to run a lot.

I have considered replacing the unit with a higher SEER (currently have a 12
SEER), but each of the AC contractors that I have talked to just come in,
look at the old unit, then give me a paper estimate. None have bothered to
measure rooms, look at the attic, do load calculations, etc. One of the
contractors that I talked to advertises heavily on the radio in my area,
Dallas, but all he did was take a quick look around at my old unit, give me
a $$ estimate, and ask when I wanted to start the installation. I did not
call him back

Hopefully, you will have better luck in finding a good contractor.
"KOS" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

I'm not sure if you "Newman" realize the amount of time a contractor would
have to invest to perform a ACCA Manual J load calc..... and give you what?
the information from that work for free? Doubt it. What's the alternative?
Give the client a "paper estimate" based on what's perceived by asking you
"the client" questions, looking over what you have, and "guesstimate" what
you need. Then, if you like the contractor's price, sign up with him, and
be sure he performs the necessary calculations before he starts the job,
and, also performs a ACCA Manual D to design "your system" based on those
calculations and your specific needs.

--
Zyp

"newman" wrote in message
news:W2%5i.3451$D31.395@trnddc01...
I think the biggest consideration is finding a competent, honest
contractor
who will determine exactly what kind and size unit that you need.

My outside unit is 18 years old (Trane) and still working Ok, but in the
summer my electricity bill is really high and my unit seems to run a lot.

I have considered replacing the unit with a higher SEER (currently have a
12
SEER), but each of the AC contractors that I have talked to just come in,
look at the old unit, then give me a paper estimate. None have bothered
to
measure rooms, look at the attic, do load calculations, etc. One of the
contractors that I talked to advertises heavily on the radio in my area,
Dallas, but all he did was take a quick look around at my old unit, give
me
a $$ estimate, and ask when I wanted to start the installation. I did not
call him back

Hopefully, you will have better luck in finding a good contractor.
"KOS" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

Frankly Zyp, that sounds like a fair idea. No one has ever offered this
kind of proposition.

And No, I do not know what kind of time and effort is required for calcs.

I would be more likely to do business with a contractor who spent some time
doing these calcs and making good recommendations.
"Zephyr" wrote in message
news:cMydnREFe_0hO8XbnZ2dnUVZ_sSmnZ2d@championbroa dband.com...
I'm not sure if you "Newman" realize the amount of time a contractor would
have to invest to perform a ACCA Manual J load calc..... and give you what?
the information from that work for free? Doubt it. What's the alternative?
Give the client a "paper estimate" based on what's perceived by asking you
"the client" questions, looking over what you have, and "guesstimate" what
you need. Then, if you like the contractor's price, sign up with him, and
be sure he performs the necessary calculations before he starts the job,
and, also performs a ACCA Manual D to design "your system" based on those
calculations and your specific needs.

--
Zyp

"newman" wrote in message
news:W2%5i.3451$D31.395@trnddc01...
I think the biggest consideration is finding a competent, honest
contractor
who will determine exactly what kind and size unit that you need.

My outside unit is 18 years old (Trane) and still working Ok, but in the
summer my electricity bill is really high and my unit seems to run a lot.

I have considered replacing the unit with a higher SEER (currently have a
12
SEER), but each of the AC contractors that I have talked to just come in,
look at the old unit, then give me a paper estimate. None have bothered
to
measure rooms, look at the attic, do load calculations, etc. One of the
contractors that I talked to advertises heavily on the radio in my area,
Dallas, but all he did was take a quick look around at my old unit, give
me
a $$ estimate, and ask when I wanted to start the installation. I did not
call him back

Hopefully, you will have better luck in finding a good contractor.
"KOS" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, I am planning on putting in central air in my house. Been looking
at diff units. Not familiar with Lennox- anyone deal with them before?
How are the units?? THANKS!

Zephyr wrote:
I'm not sure if you "Newman" realize the amount of time a contractor would
have to invest to perform a ACCA Manual J load calc..... and give you what?
the information from that work for free? Doubt it. What's the alternative?
Give the client a "paper estimate" based on what's perceived by asking you
"the client" questions, looking over what you have, and "guesstimate" what
you need. Then, if you like the contractor's price, sign up with him, and
be sure he performs the necessary calculations before he starts the job,
and, also performs a ACCA Manual D to design "your system" based on those
calculations and your specific needs.
Hi,
That all sounds good but if a contractor does not have good real life
field experience, all the calculation in the world does not mean much.
Experience and knowledge(theory) has to go together to do a good job in
anything.