"George" wrote in message
. ..
aemeijers wrote:
"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George wrote:
Dell computers for the US market are made offshore.
Most people would not consider Austin, Nashville, and Winston-Salem to
be offshore. :-)

How about answering why my three month old Dell says "Made in China" on
the box as well as on the case.

The laptops have been made offshore for ages. Last I looked, their
commercial grade desktops were still assembled in US (Using a lot of
pacific rim components, of course.) Monitors are OEM'd by other vendors,
presumably overseas, as are keyboards and mice and such. No idea where
their consumer-grade machines like in the Sunday paper are knocked
together.

aem sends...

Wifes office just got a bunch of new Optiplex machines which are their
"business grade" units and they all have "Made in China" stickers.
It saddens me to read that. Dell got underbid on the last go-round at work,
so I haven't seen any brand new Optiplexes in a couple of years.

aem sends...

Tim Smith wrote:


http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=10007

A quote from that:

Dell's Winston-Salem plant will produce PowerEdge servers,
PowerVault and Dell/EMC products, and OptiPlex and Dimension desktop
computers primarily for the U.S. market. Winston-Salem's
distribution advantages played into the company's site choice.

Here's an article on how Dell does things:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/bu...l.html?ex=1179
115200&en=35bb32b32772e89a&ei=5070


But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions. Did any of it
actually happen?

My nephew (and associates) fly in lots of Dell computers from China
every day. Every new Dell computer I have seen recently is marked "Made
in China"

"George" wrote in message
...
Tim Smith wrote:


http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=10007

A quote from that:

Dell's Winston-Salem plant will produce PowerEdge servers, PowerVault
and Dell/EMC products, and OptiPlex and Dimension desktop computers
primarily for the U.S. market. Winston-Salem's distribution advantages
played into the company's site choice.

Here's an article on how Dell does things:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/bu...l.html?ex=1179
115200&en=35bb32b32772e89a&ei=5070


But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions.

Exactly...the typical PR/Marketing "weasel words".

On May 12, 5:45 pm, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:
"George" wrote in message

...



Tim Smith wrote:

http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=10007

A quote from that:

Dell's Winston-Salem plant will produce PowerEdge servers, PowerVault
and Dell/EMC products, and OptiPlex and Dimension desktop computers
primarily for the U.S. market. Winston-Salem's distribution advantages
played into the company's site choice.

Here's an article on how Dell does things:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/bu...l.html?ex=1179
115200&en=35bb32b32772e89a&ei=5070

But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions.

Exactly...the typical PR/Marketing "weasel words".

I don't know exactly how Dell is operating those facilities now as
opposed to when they were opened--I suppose (although I doubt) they
could be building individualized towers, etc., overseas and shipping
them in, but it just doesn't sound logical. I was in TN when the
Lebanon, TN (east of Nashville) opened and it certainly was an
assembly/manufacturing facility then. That was roughly '99 time frame
iirc. I just looked at the Economic Development Organization for the
area and they still show 1500 employees at the Dell Lebanon, TN,
facility, but could find nothing up-to-date on what they're actually
doing. Would seem unlikely they would need 1500 people to unload and
re-ship, however.

Dell web site is uninformative -- would have to read annual reports
and do more research than I'm interested in doing to find out more
detail. I can believe the laptop and some specialty business, but
really have a hard time conceiving it could be cost-effective to fly
in large quantities of the bulk type machines already assembled/
software loaded/etc....

But, I've been wrong before...

In article ,
George wrote:
But those are just the usual warm and fuzzy press releases from the past
about the great stuff that is *going* to happen after they got the
development grants/no taxes for 10 years exemptions. Did any of it
actually happen?

Yes. They have a 500000 sq ft facility in Winston-Salem, of which they
are using about 40% of the space, for 700 people to assembly computers.
That was as of about two months ago:

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Sa...FMGArticle%2FW
SJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137834549592


My nephew (and associates) fly in lots of Dell computers from China
every day. Every new Dell computer I have seen recently is marked "Made
in China"

Most likely your nephew is flying in parts for Dell. Much of Dell's
parts come from Asia (disk drives, for example).

--
--Tim Smith

"Tim Smith" wrote in message

Most likely your nephew is flying in parts for Dell. Much of Dell's
parts come from Asia (disk drives, for example).

Or maybe both. They may assemble a generic computer in China then customize
it here. Lots of speculation, very little facts about this. Or they may
assemble the high end here. Until we get a real Dell employee to say
otherwise, we're all just guessing.

On May 12, 8:27 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Tim Smith" wrote in message

Most likely your nephew is flying in parts for Dell. Much of Dell's
parts come from Asia (disk drives, for example).

Or maybe both. They may assemble a generic computer in China then customize
it here. Lots of speculation, very little facts about this. Or they may
assemble the high end here. Until we get a real Dell employee to say
otherwise, we're all just guessing.

The one thing that is certain is that Dell continues to refine/modify
its processes in response to very dynamic market forces, both on the
consumption and production side. What they had in mind when the
facilities were built 5 or more years ago is quite likely a light-year
away from what their current procurement/production/distribution
models are. And, what they may be 5 years down the road may bear
little resemblence to today's...

"BobR" wrote in message
ps.com...
| On May 11, 11:16 am, dpb wrote:
| On May 11, 9:38 am, BobR wrote:
| ...
|
| I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
| cordless tools over the past few years and been rather
disappointed in
| all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of tools
from
| Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The overall
| qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been well
| above that of the previous tools.
|
| ..
|
| Well, w/ those as comparatives, you're in at least the same general
| range of target market. TTI of course, began as a manufacturer for
| Sears/Craftsman and then built the Ryobi brand and got the
| distribution deal w/ HD from that experience/basis. While I haven't
| looked in detail for several years now, it would be surprising to
find
| they're not still making a fair amount of stuff for Sears. I've not
| investigated the Skil/B&D actual manufacturing relationships enough
to
| know of any possible connection in production facilities although
one
| would presume they're not contracting for them, even that wouldn't
be
| out of the realm of possibilities.
|
| I was talking with a plumbing company the other day who was also using
| Ryobi tools. Caught me by surprise that they would be using them
| since their load demand would far exceed mine. I ask them if they
| were happy with the tools and the quality. Their answer was that
| while the tools were not as good as say the Dewalt brand, their cost
| was so much lower that they could by three or four and still save
| money. Their experience had shown about 3/4 of the use at 1/4 of the
| cost. Still seems like a good value.
|
|

bought a Dewalt screwgun recently and the motor burned out before we
finished the 1st job with it, what a piece of crap Dewalt is. my
Milwaukee is still going after 25 years of abuse. I hope the new
Milwaukee tools last this long.

On May 13, 5:23 am, "3G" wrote:
"BobR" wrote in message

ps.com...
| On May 11, 11:16 am, dpb wrote:
| On May 11, 9:38 am, BobR wrote:
| ...
|
| I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
| cordless tools over the past few years and been rather
disappointed in
| all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of tools
from
| Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The overall
| qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been well
| above that of the previous tools.
|
| ..
|
| Well, w/ those as comparatives, you're in at least the same general
| range of target market. TTI of course, began as a manufacturer for
| Sears/Craftsman and then built the Ryobi brand and got the
| distribution deal w/ HD from that experience/basis. While I haven't
| looked in detail for several years now, it would be surprising to
find
| they're not still making a fair amount of stuff for Sears. I've not
| investigated the Skil/B&D actual manufacturing relationships enough
to
| know of any possible connection in production facilities although
one
| would presume they're not contracting for them, even that wouldn't
be
| out of the realm of possibilities.
|
| I was talking with a plumbing company the other day who was also using
| Ryobi tools. Caught me by surprise that they would be using them
| since their load demand would far exceed mine. I ask them if they
| were happy with the tools and the quality. Their answer was that
| while the tools were not as good as say the Dewalt brand, their cost
| was so much lower that they could by three or four and still save
| money. Their experience had shown about 3/4 of the use at 1/4 of the
| cost. Still seems like a good value.
|
|

bought a Dewalt screwgun recently and the motor burned out before we
finished the 1st job with it, what a piece of crap Dewalt is. my
Milwaukee is still going after 25 years of abuse. I hope the new
Milwaukee tools last this long.

I haven't bought a new DeWalt recently but have certainly been well
pleased w/ the miter saw which was the last yellow tool. As far as
one can tell simply looking, they appear to still be the same as then,
and still got good ratings in last comparative reviews I've seen so
can't say whether any degradation is an overall product line or a
specific tool or line of tools or whether you just got unlucky on a
particular tool...

And I note no one has yet taken the time to guess (or look up) the
point of manufacture of the Milwaukee 18V hammer-drills before/after
the TTI buyout.
I did look at the (almost) brand new one to compare to one of vintage
before for comparison...
that I mentioned having looked at

On May 11, 11:43 am, BobR wrote:
On May 11, 11:16 am, dpb wrote:



On May 11, 9:38 am, BobR wrote:
...

I have been through several Skill, Craftsman, and Black Decker
cordless tools over the past few years and been rather disappointed in
all of them. Nine months ago I bought a combination set of tools from
Ryobi and couldn't be happier with their performance. The overall
qualitiy of the tools is good and their performance has been well
above that of the previous tools.

..

Well, w/ those as comparatives, you're in at least the same general
range of target market. TTI of course, began as a manufacturer for
Sears/Craftsman and then built the Ryobi brand and got the
distribution deal w/ HD from that experience/basis. While I haven't
looked in detail for several years now, it would be surprising to find
they're not still making a fair amount of stuff for Sears. I've not
investigated the Skil/B&D actual manufacturing relationships enough to
know of any possible connection in production facilities although one
would presume they're not contracting for them, even that wouldn't be
out of the realm of possibilities.

I was talking with a plumbing company the other day who was also using
Ryobi tools. Caught me by surprise that they would be using them
since their load demand would far exceed mine. I ask them if they
were happy with the tools and the quality. Their answer was that
while the tools were not as good as say the Dewalt brand, their cost
was so much lower that they could by three or four and still save
money. Their experience had shown about 3/4 of the use at 1/4 of the
cost. Still seems like a good value.

The cost ratio would seem high although could believe the use/
longevity might be roughly correct. Of course, one could get the cost
ratio to that point if comparing a K-Mart/Walmart-purchased homeowner
tool to a tool purchased at the plumbing distributorship.

Every business owner/contractor/etc. has to work out what is the most
cost-effective tool management program for their particular
situation. I know those who use the same "throw-away" scheme and
others who "buy best". In those instances, what is the difference
primarily of the ones I'm thinking of is the types of crews they have--
the "cheap but cheery" guy uses hourlies while the "pricey but strong"
guy has long-term employees. I hypothesize the labor and the personal
proclivities of the individuals has as much or more to do w/ the
longevity of the tool as the tool itself.

I simply compare how as an employer I have tools which I have owned/
used for in some cases 40 years that a particular hand has been able
to destroy (or nearly so) in a half-hour before it was rescued. Otoh,
others are also able to operate with impunity the same tool doing the
same job.

According to dpb :

_ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
the same production line w/ Ryobi.

The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
or even production line.

Eg: MTD owns about 5 different lawn/garden tractor brands. Cub Cadet is
most definately not equivalent to "MTD branded" tractors.

Eg: Dewalt != B&D != Porter Cable != Delta. Yet, they're all B&D...

Nor should the location of the plants make any difference - the big
three north american automakers dismissed japanese automakers for
rather too long, and are still paying for it.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On May 15, 11:10 am, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :

_ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
the same production line w/ Ryobi.

The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
or even production line.

To me that goes w/o saying although I know that it isn't so for many.
In essence then, we're agreeing but I surely didn't get that message
from your previous posts--I certainly thought you were trying to make
a case that Milwaukee wasn't producing anything in the US. So, if I
misinterpreted, sorry, apparently I was also tilting at the wrong
windmill...

BTW, the answer to the question of where the 18V hammer drills were
_actually_ made is (surprising me) the Czech Republic. True for the
old one and the very recently acquired one both...

According to dpb :
On May 15, 11:10 am, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :

_ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
the same production line w/ Ryobi.

The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
or even production line.

To me that goes w/o saying although I know that it isn't so for many.
In essence then, we're agreeing but I surely didn't get that message
from your previous posts--I certainly thought you were trying to make
a case that Milwaukee wasn't producing anything in the US.

I was trying to make the case that it's not clear how much they're
manufacturing in the US, but it doesn't matter...

So, if I
misinterpreted, sorry, apparently I was also tilting at the wrong
windmill...

It happens to all of us ;-)

BTW, the answer to the question of where the 18V hammer drills were
_actually_ made is (surprising me) the Czech Republic. True for the
old one and the very recently acquired one both...

My father worked for a couple of years as a sales engineer for a
heavy industry manufacturing group based in Czechoslovakia,
_before_ the Soviet empire came apart, let alone before the Czech
and Slovak republics parted ways. Rock crushers, pumps in the
100+ HP class etc (for mining industry etc). "Won't win beauty or
engineering elegance prizes, but _tough_ and lasts forever".

Add a bit of engineering elegance and shift to retail, and you have
Milwaulkee ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On May 9, 2:48 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
As with most consumer products, there really are only a few companies making
them. There's often quite a difference between the brands. Other times,
none at all.

Sometimes they're hybrids. I've bought some different brands of window
air conditioners in the past few years; it's obvious that the
mechanicals are all the same (probably LG), but the control panels are
all different; the LG one has old fashioned knobs, another one is
digital, another one is digital with a remote.

On May 10, 12:15 am, Jack wrote:
If I may sound off on this one,
Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has meant, and
in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human rights
issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And better and
better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut know as
cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the labor
cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for years.
I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools, but the
Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a better one
on earth at any price point. I love mine.

Well, you don't have to be too old to remember when 'made in Japan'
was a synonym for piece of crap. That period went by pretty quickly,
in retrospect.

On May 15, 1:12 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :



On May 15, 11:10 am, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :

_ALL_ I'm saying is there are still
Milwaukee manufacturing facilities in the US in contrast to OP's
apparent contention/belief that the TTI takeover meant cheap stuff of
the same production line w/ Ryobi.

The point I was trying to make (perhaps not all that well) is that
even if the same company makes Milwaulkee and Ryobi, it doesn't
mean that the quality is the same. Regardless of plant location
or even production line.

To me that goes w/o saying although I know that it isn't so for many.
In essence then, we're agreeing but I surely didn't get that message
from your previous posts--I certainly thought you were trying to make
a case that Milwaukee wasn't producing anything in the US.

I was trying to make the case that it's not clear how much they're
manufacturing in the US, but it doesn't matter...

So, if I
misinterpreted, sorry, apparently I was also tilting at the wrong
windmill...

It happens to all of us ;-)

BTW, the answer to the question of where the 18V hammer drills were
_actually_ made is (surprising me) the Czech Republic. True for the
old one and the very recently acquired one both...

My father worked for a couple of years as a sales engineer for a
heavy industry manufacturing group based in Czechoslovakia,
_before_ the Soviet empire came apart, let alone before the Czech
and Slovak republics parted ways. Rock crushers, pumps in the
100+ HP class etc (for mining industry etc). "Won't win beauty or
engineering elegance prizes, but _tough_ and lasts forever".

Yes...in a former life I worked with a line of ash and elemental
analyzers for online monitoring of coal. A fair amount of the heavy
gear in the prep plants was of East European origin...

Add a bit of engineering elegance and shift to retail, and you have
Milwaulkee ;-)

What surprised me was that one has become conditioned to offshore
cheap manufacturing to mean SE Asia or, maybe, Mexico for those who
jumped on the NAFTA bandwagon. That eastern bloc countries are for
the most part also still in the cheap labor camp has pretty much
fallen of the radar screen...

I thought it interesting that the decision had been made and the
location selected obviously long before the takeover. My _really_ old
red gear is, of course, labelled USA, but that's going back 50 years
to most of it. I hadn't had any need for buying something I didn't
already have for quite a long time and came to the high power battery
drill _very_ late in the game so didn't have anything of intermediate
age to try to compare with...

BTW, "Milwaukee" has only one (1) "L"...

--

According to z :
On May 10, 12:15 am, Jack wrote:
If I may sound off on this one,
Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has meant, and
in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human rights
issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And better and
better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut know as
cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the labor
cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for years.
I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools, but the
Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a better one
on earth at any price point. I love mine.

Well, you don't have to be too old to remember when 'made in Japan'
was a synonym for piece of crap. That period went by pretty quickly,
in retrospect.

Agreed. The shift is well on the way with Taiwan and Korea now, and
it _will_ happen with China too. The end result being high wages and
a certain amount of stagnation/regrouping as they meet or exceed
where we are now (in wages, QoL, prices etc). Question is whether our
economies will survive the phenomena with China, or instead, whether
it's our turn next.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On May 15, 2:45 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to z :





On May 10, 12:15 am, Jack wrote:
If I may sound off on this one,
Personally where the tool is manufactured weighs in little for me. As
much as I would prefer to buy American or Canadian, (keep our boys
working) QUALITY will be my sole decider. I know China has meant, and
in some cases still means cheap crap and deeper still human rights
issues, etc. But the world is headed in that direction. And better and
better stuff keeps coming from that manufacturing juggernaut know as
cheap labor China. Often they are our companies, exploiting the labor
cost difference. Anyway that said, I have been a BOSCH fan for years.
I've recently been displeased with a few of their newer tools, but the
Mitre Box for example, well... IMHO ,I dont think theres a better one
on earth at any price point. I love mine.

Well, you don't have to be too old to remember when 'made in Japan'
was a synonym for piece of crap. That period went by pretty quickly,
in retrospect.

Agreed. The shift is well on the way with Taiwan and Korea now, and
it _will_ happen with China too. The end result being high wages and
a certain amount of stagnation/regrouping as they meet or exceed
where we are now (in wages, QoL, prices etc). Question is whether our
economies will survive the phenomena with China, or instead, whether
it's our turn next.


Of course our economies are going to get clobbered. The only thing
keeping our salaries and benefits and way of life as high as they are
is geographic isolation; the money is over here not over there, we are
over here, therefore we have more money. Thanks to modern
communications and transportation, that isolation is greatly reduced.
Eventually things will stabilize, but we're not going to live long
enough to see that period. In the meantime, it's going to be a bumpy
ride. Like when the industrial revolution displaced agriculture, or
when mechanization replaced hand labor.

According to dpb :
On May 15, 1:12 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:

Add a bit of engineering elegance and shift to retail, and you have
Milwaulkee ;-)

What surprised me was that one has become conditioned to offshore
cheap manufacturing to mean SE Asia or, maybe, Mexico for those who
jumped on the NAFTA bandwagon. That eastern bloc countries are for
the most part also still in the cheap labor camp has pretty much
fallen of the radar screen...

The underlying issue on the "radar screen" front is the US bleedout
on trade. The US had a $725.8 billion trade deficit in
2005 ($200B with China alone, ~$70B with Canada). That's US dollars
going over "there" (and some "here", to reference the other followup
to my posting ;-)

[Canada had a $55B total trade surplus in 2005. Last time the US had a
trade surplus was in 1975.]

I wouldn't include the Czech Republic in the cheap labor camp. It's
advantage comes from a long history of industrialization, good
education, and relative stability (compared to many other eastern
bloc countries). The standard of living there has been pretty
comfortable for several decades, and wages are moderately high
compared to other places in the eastern bloc.

The parts of Czechoslovakia that _didn't_ have as much of that
went off on its own (relatively peacefully!).

With the Czech Republic, it's a shift of manufacturing with
good education, infrastructure etc backing it up. Not _new_
manufacturing and all of the long-term education/infrastructure
buildup that needs.

Yugoslavia had the same potential advantages, but the "going off
on their own" bit was hardly peaceful and set them back decades.
Tho there are sectors still doing well.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to z :

Of course our economies are going to get clobbered. The only thing
keeping our salaries and benefits and way of life as high as they are
is geographic isolation; the money is over here not over there, we are
over here, therefore we have more money.

Given that the US trade deficit in 2005 was $728B and is still
increasing, you seem to be doing your best to move it over "there" :-(

It'll stabilize, but it'll be bumpy getting there, and I have my
doubts whether you're going to be happy with the stabilized level.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

dpb wrote:
BTW, "Milwaukee" has only one (1) "L"...

Supposedly, so does Chicago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_'L'

--
It's funny how quickly liberal atheists can develop a belief in hell
when someone they hate dies.