I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Thanks for all your help.

On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:
I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.


Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:
On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), by pulling
out the old AL wire. I will use the existing wire to fish the new one
in place and use junction boxes to connect the outlets. At the same
time I would like to put ceiling light fixtures and wire them to the
existing switches that were connected to one of the outlets.

Hope this time I was more clear on what I wanted to do.

Dom

On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:



On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), by pulling
out the old AL wire. I will use the existing wire to fish the new one
in place and use junction boxes to connect the outlets. At the same
time I would like to put ceiling light fixtures and wire them to the
existing switches that were connected to one of the outlets.

Hope this time I was more clear on what I wanted to do.

Dom

Unless something unique in CN code, don't see any problem again as
long as the junction boxes are acessible. What you may run into is a
problem in getting the old wire out w/o tearing up the wall as they
may well have stapled it to joists tightly enough you'll not pull it.
If, of course, you can, there's no reason you can't pull up and
through the attic from one receptacle to the next where you don't need
a junction box for some other purpose. You would start the feed by
pulling the old with a string attached, of course, then feed from one
end and use the fish again at the other to pull back down. Assuming
open wall cavities (no infill insulation, blocking, plumbing, etc.,
etc.) you could probably pull two 14's together. OTOH, in the big
scheme of things if you're doing significant remodeling, repairing a
few holes in the walls may be simpler overall.

On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:



On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), ...

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly
want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended
this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring
with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you
should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

On Apr 16, 1:59 pm, "dpb" wrote:
On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:



On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), ...

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly
want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended
this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring
with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you
should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

Yes the AL wire is already grounded. I will be pulling 14-2 w/g. I
have peeked through the top of the wall joists and it looks like there
is no fire blocking materials, it is open all the way down.
I was not sure about usage of the junction boxes since general there
is some moisture in the attics.

On Apr 16, 1:07 pm, wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 08:00:38 -0700, "Dom" wrote:



On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:
On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), by pulling
out the old AL wire. I will use the existing wire to fish the new one
in place and use junction boxes to connect the outlets. At the same
time I would like to put ceiling light fixtures and wire them to the
existing switches that were connected to one of the outlets.

Hope this time I was more clear on what I wanted to do.

Dom

This won't work. The wire will be stapled to the studs and will not
really pull out that easy. You certainly will not be pulling the new
wire in that way. This is going to be a bigger job that you planned.
The first thing you need to find out is if the stud bays have "fire
stops" in them. (2x4s across the bay 4' up) That will really frustrate
your wire pulling unless you can come up from the bottom.
They do make a "diversibit" that is 5' long to drill these from the
top but be careful you don't miss and come out the drywall.
Then fish down with a short piece of chain in the string so you can
catch it with a retriever magnet through the hole in the box.
It is as hard as it sounds.

About stamping the wire to the joist near the outlets, is there any
techniques for that without making a hole in the drywall? I know some
of the walls don't have fire stops, so that should help things.

On Apr 16, 1:11 pm, "Dom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 1:59 pm, "dpb" wrote:







On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:

On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), ...

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly
want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended
this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring
with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you
should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

Yes the AL wire is already grounded. I will be pulling 14-2 w/g. I
have peeked through the top of the wall joists and it looks like there
is no fire blocking materials, it is open all the way down.
I was not sure about usage of the junction boxes since general there
is some moisture in the attics.


OK, good...just didn't want a DOH! moment here...

As I noted earlier, if you're doing a fair amount of remodeling and it
is actually drywall and not lath and plaster, the difficulty in
patching drywall is minimal in comparison to the gyrations you may
have to go through to fish and pull wire to try to avoid damaging the
walls.

As for removing staples, depends. If you can remove the box, you
may have enough room to get a bar or other tool where you can pull it
or get enough slack behind it. Then again, in doing that you may well
tear up the wallboard anyway, so might as well have made the access
hole to start. Only way in "old work" to know is when you start
trying. And, just because one works doesn't mean the same technique/
trick will work on the next one. All in all, I'd just make access as
needed to do the job and then fix it.

Sufficient moisture in the attic to be concerned about it not being
classifiable as "dry" per electrical code is indicative of some other
problem that needs fixing, probably worse than the wiring needs to be
replaced if it's not an immediate concern (as in you're already having
hot-spots, etc.).

Don't know what you're referring to, but it can't be good...

On Apr 16, 9:36 pm, "dpb" wrote:
On Apr 16, 1:11 pm, "Dom" wrote:





On Apr 16, 1:59 pm, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:

On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), ...

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly
want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended
this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring
with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you
should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

Yes the AL wire is already grounded. I will be pulling 14-2 w/g. I
have peeked through the top of the wall joists and it looks like there
is no fire blocking materials, it is open all the way down.
I was not sure about usage of the junction boxes since general there
is some moisture in the attics.

OK, good...just didn't want a DOH! moment here...

As I noted earlier, if you're doing a fair amount of remodeling and it
is actually drywall and not lath and plaster, the difficulty in
patching drywall is minimal in comparison to the gyrations you may
have to go through to fish and pull wire to try to avoid damaging the
walls.

As for removing staples, depends. If you can remove the box, you
may have enough room to get a bar or other tool where you can pull it
or get enough slack behind it. Then again, in doing that you may well
tear up the wallboard anyway, so might as well have made the access
hole to start. Only way in "old work" to know is when you start
trying. And, just because one works doesn't mean the same technique/
trick will work on the next one. All in all, I'd just make access as
needed to do the job and then fix it.

Sufficient moisture in the attic to be concerned about it not being
classifiable as "dry" per electrical code is indicative of some other
problem that needs fixing, probably worse than the wiring needs to be
replaced if it's not an immediate concern (as in you're already having
hot-spots, etc.).

Don't know what you're referring to, but it can't be good... - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dampness in the attic may indicate inadequate ventilation up there, no
matter where the moisture is coming from that can lead to rot and
mould!

On Apr 16, 6:00 pm, wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 11:15:49 -0700, "Dom" wrote:

....You don't have to staple the wire when you are "fishing". That is only
when the walls are open and it is mostlly to keep the sheet rock guy
from damaging the wire when he is putting up the wall. ......

I'm pretty sure this is against the code. Are you sure this can be
done. It would save a lot of time to make (and patch) holes at every
switch outlet to staple the wires to the joists.

On Apr 16, 4:56 pm, "terry" wrote:
On Apr 16, 9:36 pm, "dpb" wrote:



On Apr 16, 1:11 pm, "Dom" wrote:

On Apr 16, 1:59 pm, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 10:00 am, "Dom" wrote:

On Apr 16, 10:44 am, "dpb" wrote:

On Apr 16, 9:25 am, "Dom" wrote:

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the
house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old
wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to
open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other
than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the
attic. All the outlets are wires in series.
Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put
junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes
( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or
should I follow the current design.
House was wired in late 60's.

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing
outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the
junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow
the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving
at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically
I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), ...

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly
want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended
this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring
with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you
should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

Yes the AL wire is already grounded. I will be pulling 14-2 w/g. I
have peeked through the top of the wall joists and it looks like there
is no fire blocking materials, it is open all the way down.
I was not sure about usage of the junction boxes since general there
is some moisture in the attics.

OK, good...just didn't want a DOH! moment here...

As I noted earlier, if you're doing a fair amount of remodeling and it
is actually drywall and not lath and plaster, the difficulty in
patching drywall is minimal in comparison to the gyrations you may
have to go through to fish and pull wire to try to avoid damaging the
walls.

As for removing staples, depends. If you can remove the box, you
may have enough room to get a bar or other tool where you can pull it
or get enough slack behind it. Then again, in doing that you may well
tear up the wallboard anyway, so might as well have made the access
hole to start. Only way in "old work" to know is when you start
trying. And, just because one works doesn't mean the same technique/
trick will work on the next one. All in all, I'd just make access as
needed to do the job and then fix it.

Sufficient moisture in the attic to be concerned about it not being
classifiable as "dry" per electrical code is indicative of some other
problem that needs fixing, probably worse than the wiring needs to be
replaced if it's not an immediate concern (as in you're already having
hot-spots, etc.).

Don't know what you're referring to, but it can't be good... - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dampness in the attic may indicate inadequate ventilation up there, no
matter where the moisture is coming from that can lead to rot and
mould!

When I stated generally there is moisture in the attics I mean is sort
of outside your house. I don't seen anything like that in my attics.
Just wanted to be sure junction boxes can go there.

When I stated generally there is moisture in the attics I mean is sort
of outside your house. I don't seen anything like that in my attics.
Just wanted to be sure junction boxes can go there.


Yes you can have junction boxes in the attic.

One other note, a house built in the late 60's will have fairly poor
insulation and no real vapour barrier in the outside walls. Drywall is so
easy to install, it would be simpler to pull all the old drywall off the
outside walls and make an easy job of wiring the walls with insulation. At
this point remove all the insulation, caulk any draft leaks in the
sheathing, and install modern efficient insulation and an approved 6 mil
vapour barrier then re-drywall.

After seeing how much simpler it is to wire, and to update the wiring to
include the addition of communications lines and cable lines, you may decide
to strip off all the other walls too. This is what I have done when fully
remodelling a room.

The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.

I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using
BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then
the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be
to code. They are specifically made for armored cable.
Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.

Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are
nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put
in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside
the walls but such is life. \

Tom

On Apr 17, 1:54 pm, wrote:
The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.

I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using
BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then
the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be
to code. They are specifically made for armored cable.
Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.

Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are
nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put
in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside
the walls but such is life. \

Tom

Thanks for the response. I dont think it is armored. It looks like its
wrapped in material like black casing and there before that wrapped in
paper ... How is the old box different that the current ones.

Thanks

According to :
On 16 Apr 2007 20:38:57 -0700, Dom wrote:

I'm pretty sure this is against the code. Are you sure this can be
done. It would save a lot of time to make (and patch) holes at every
switch outlet to staple the wires to the joists.

You can verify this in the Canadian code but it is certtainly allowed
in the US NEC. The CEC is very similar.
The main reason you staple the wire is to keep it away from the
sheetrocker. Once the wall is closed up the chance of damaging the
wire is nil

It's the same in the Canadian code.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Dom :
On Apr 17, 1:54 pm, wrote:
The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.

I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using
BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then
the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be
to code. They are specifically made for armored cable.
Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.

Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are
nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put
in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside
the walls but such is life. \

Thanks for the response. I dont think it is armored. It looks like its
wrapped in material like black casing and there before that wrapped in
paper ... How is the old box different that the current ones.

60's wiring in Ontario is primarily cloth wrapped copper with some
plastic sheathed copper towards the end of the decade. There will only be
BX cable in certain exposed locations (if any).

I'm surprised that it's aluminum. That was a little later (early-mid 70's),
and usually was plastic sheath. Are you _sure_ it's aluminum? I don't
recall ever seeing cloth-wrapped aluminum here.

You can use the junction boxes as you'd like, however, routing wiring
and boxes in an attic can be tricky w.r.t. codes - so, you need to stop
what you're doing and go to the store and buy a copy of the "Orange book".

The orange book is "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" by PS Knight.
It's cheap (should still be $15), and will answer your questions in this
regard. Most hardware and big box DIY stores carry it (like Home Hardware,
Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Rona, Beaver, etc)

BTW: In Canada, house wiring has always comes with a ground since the
late 50's or so. Hence, "14/2 house" wire that you buy is _always_ two
insulated conductors and a ground. You don't have to specify "with
ground" when you buy it. With stranded wire cord tho, you do ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Apr 17, 4:57 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Dom :

On Apr 17, 1:54 pm, wrote:
The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.
I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using
BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then
the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be
to code. They are specifically made for armored cable.
Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.
Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are
nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put
in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside
the walls but such is life. \
Thanks for the response. I dont think it is armored. It looks like its
wrapped in material like black casing and there before that wrapped in
paper ... How is the old box different that the current ones.

60's wiring in Ontario is primarily cloth wrapped copper with some
plastic sheathed copper towards the end of the decade. There will only be
BX cable in certain exposed locations (if any).

I'm surprised that it's aluminum. That was a little later (early-mid 70's),
and usually was plastic sheath. Are you _sure_ it's aluminum? I don't
recall ever seeing cloth-wrapped aluminum here.

You can use the junction boxes as you'd like, however, routing wiring
and boxes in an attic can be tricky w.r.t. codes - so, you need to stop
what you're doing and go to the store and buy a copy of the "Orange book".

The orange book is "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" by PS Knight.
It's cheap (should still be $15), and will answer your questions in this
regard. Most hardware and big box DIY stores carry it (like Home Hardware,
Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Rona, Beaver, etc)

BTW: In Canada, house wiring has always comes with a ground since the
late 50's or so. Hence, "14/2 house" wire that you buy is _always_ two
insulated conductors and a ground. You don't have to specify "with
ground" when you buy it. With stranded wire cord tho, you do ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks again Chris,

I will look into that book for sure.
I'm 99.9% positive its al as it metallic silver in colour and very
easy to break by twisting.
What do you mean by w.r.t codes. Did a google search on it but did not
come up with anything in context. What did you have in mind when you
said tricky?
Lastly I have heard there is new codes in the making, have you heard
anything about it?

TIA

Dom

On Apr 17, 5:41 pm, Dom wrote:
On Apr 17, 4:57 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:



According to Dom :

On Apr 17, 1:54 pm, wrote:
The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.
I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using
BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then
the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be
to code. They are specifically made for armored cable.
Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.
Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are
nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put
in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside
the walls but such is life. \
Thanks for the response. I dont think it is armored. It looks like its
wrapped in material like black casing and there before that wrapped in
paper ... How is the old box different that the current ones.

60's wiring in Ontario is primarily cloth wrapped copper with some
plastic sheathed copper towards the end of the decade. There will only be
BX cable in certain exposed locations (if any).

I'm surprised that it's aluminum. That was a little later (early-mid 70's),
and usually was plastic sheath. Are you _sure_ it's aluminum? I don't
recall ever seeing cloth-wrapped aluminum here.

You can use the junction boxes as you'd like, however, routing wiring
and boxes in an attic can be tricky w.r.t. codes - so, you need to stop
what you're doing and go to the store and buy a copy of the "Orange book".

The orange book is "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" by PS Knight.
It's cheap (should still be $15), and will answer your questions in this
regard. Most hardware and big box DIY stores carry it (like Home Hardware,
Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Rona, Beaver, etc)

BTW: In Canada, house wiring has always comes with a ground since the
late 50's or so. Hence, "14/2 house" wire that you buy is _always_ two
insulated conductors and a ground. You don't have to specify "with
ground" when you buy it. With stranded wire cord tho, you do ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks again Chris,

I will look into that book for sure.
I'm 99.9% positive its al as it metallic silver in colour and very
easy to break by twisting.
What do you mean by w.r.t codes. Did a google search on it but did not
come up with anything in context. What did you have in mind when you
said tricky?
Lastly I have heard there is new codes in the making, have you heard
anything about it?

If it's like NEC (which I suspect it is), I presume Chris is thinking
of the accessibility rules on exposed cabling (he can obviously
correct/amplify if I'm guessing wrong). The definition of what
constitutes "access" and "use" is such that even if all there is is a
trap door w/ a ladder and you go up there once a year for storage,
strictly speaking there should be no exposed wiring but all protected.

His suggestion for a "Wiring Simplified" CN equivalent and reading it
through is an _most_excellent_ recommendation. Sorry I wasn't the one
who made it (altho I don't know the specific one for you, anyway).

According to dpb :
On Apr 17, 5:41 pm, Dom wrote:
On Apr 17, 4:57 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:

You can use the junction boxes as you'd like, however, routing wiring
and boxes in an attic can be tricky w.r.t. codes - so, you need to stop
what you're doing and go to the store and buy a copy of the "Orange book".

The orange book is "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" by PS Knight.
It's cheap (should still be $15), and will answer your questions in this
regard. Most hardware and big box DIY stores carry it (like Home Hardware,
Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Rona, Beaver, etc)

BTW: In Canada, house wiring has always comes with a ground since the
late 50's or so. Hence, "14/2 house" wire that you buy is _always_ two
insulated conductors and a ground. You don't have to specify "with
ground" when you buy it. With stranded wire cord tho, you do ;-)

Thanks again Chris,

I will look into that book for sure.
I'm 99.9% positive its al as it metallic silver in colour and very
easy to break by twisting.
What do you mean by w.r.t codes. Did a google search on it but did not
come up with anything in context. What did you have in mind when you
said tricky?
Lastly I have heard there is new codes in the making, have you heard
anything about it?

Codes are revised every couple of years. So there's always a new
one in the making. When you buy your copy of the orange book,
it'll say which revision of the CEC it corresponds to. If the orange
book date _itself_ is less than 2-3 years old, you have the right one.

If it's like NEC (which I suspect it is), I presume Chris is thinking
of the accessibility rules on exposed cabling (he can obviously
correct/amplify if I'm guessing wrong). The definition of what
constitutes "access" and "use" is such that even if all there is is a
trap door w/ a ladder and you go up there once a year for storage,
strictly speaking there should be no exposed wiring but all protected.

It's not so much accessibility of J-boxes (which is required of course),

with more than, er, 1M (~39") I think of headroom, because they're a
snag hazard. There's other stuff about headroom, etc. Most of these
rules are similar to the NEC, but the details are different.

The rules aren't onerous, and inspectors do give some leeway,
the book will help him understand the simple rules he should follow
about wire and box placement.

His suggestion for a "Wiring Simplified" CN equivalent and reading it
through is an _most_excellent_ recommendation. Sorry I wasn't the one
who made it (altho I don't know the specific one for you, anyway).

P.S. Knight's books are somewhat unique.

In both the US and Canada, there's an official national code (US:
NEC, Canada: CSA CEC), and usually it's adopted and amended somewhat
for each state (or province), and municipality.

Most of the "Wiring Simplified" books in the US and Canada are
generalized books that don't get into fine detail, make no allowance for
regional variation, and may be based on codes that are years out of
date. In some cases, following these books to the letter will be wrong
for your location, and to be 100% accurate you have to either have
the real code on hand ($$$), or ask an inspector a lot of questions.

P.S. Knight, on the other hand, publishes what is defacto
the official "electrician's training manual" for Canada, with
different versions for each provincial code, and is updated
in full synchronization with the code revisions. The DIY book
I'm recommending is similar - each province has a different version,
and it's updated in sync with the corresponding official code.

For a Canadian who is asking basic questions, you can _never_ be
wrong recommending the PS Knight "Electrical Code Simplified"
(ECS) book that they can obtain in most hardware/DIY stores in
their province.

As the ECS obsoletes fast (every 3-5 years), it's produced cheaply,
uses hand-drawn (kinda primitive ;-) diagrams and is quite inexpensive.
It doesn't have fancy binding or extensive color photos of each motion
needed to twist two wires together. It won't win any design awards.

It's a cheaply produced paperback book full of scribbles.

Until the last edition it looked _almost_ like it was done with
a manual typewriter in bad need of readjustment, primitive
charcoal cave drawings, and photocopied ;-) But it has always
answered all the code questions, makes suggestions on (legal)
short cuts and has other hints and tricks. Even a bit of humor.
_Very_ well written for the beginner.

If the person needs basic skill or design handholding, they need one
of the pretty books. [The Reader's Digest DIY book is my favorite]

You can also recommend the Electrical Wiring FAQ, noting the
caveat that it is somewhat out of date.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:


In both the US and Canada, there's an official national code (US:
NEC, Canada: CSA CEC), and usually it's adopted and amended somewhat
for each state (or province), and municipality.

P.S. Knight, on the other hand, publishes what is defacto
the official "electrician's training manual" for Canada, with
different versions for each provincial code, and is updated
in full synchronization with the code revisions. The DIY book
I'm recommending is similar - each province has a different version,
and it's updated in sync with the corresponding official code.


In Canada can code modifications only be made at the province level (not
city)? That would make life easier.

--
bud--

According to Bud-- :
Chris Lewis wrote:

In both the US and Canada, there's an official national code (US:
NEC, Canada: CSA CEC), and usually it's adopted and amended somewhat
for each state (or province), and municipality.

P.S. Knight, on the other hand, publishes what is defacto
the official "electrician's training manual" for Canada, with
different versions for each provincial code, and is updated
in full synchronization with the code revisions. The DIY book
I'm recommending is similar - each province has a different version,
and it's updated in sync with the corresponding official code.

In Canada can code modifications only be made at the province level (not
city)? That would make life easier.

In Canada, code modifications at lower than the provincial level
are generally provided as "conditions" on your electrical wiring
permit. Or ask the local permit office. There's very few of them.

The only one I've seen is the condition in our local permits saying
"you can't use aluminum wire". (It's still code-legal. Some
municipalities have chosen to prohibit it for branch circuits.
Mine has, but still allows it for subpanel feeds)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Apr 19, 2:07 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :
....

If it's like NEC (which I suspect it is), I presume Chris is thinking
of the accessibility rules on exposed cabling (he can obviously
correct/amplify if I'm guessing wrong). The definition of what
constitutes "access" and "use" is such that even if all there is is a
trap door w/ a ladder and you go up there once a year for storage,
strictly speaking there should be no exposed wiring but all protected.

It's not so much accessibility of J-boxes (which is required of course),
with more than, er, 1M (~39") I think of headroom, because they're a
snag hazard. There's other stuff about headroom, etc. Most of these
rules are similar to the NEC, but the details are different.
....

[...snip very nice discussion of sources for (primarily) CN
participants...]...

That's the thing which I figured was probably the "gotcha" over what I
lot of homeowners see/do in attics that I figured Dom probably wasn't
thinking about as a limitation/problem...even though the space isn't
used on a daily basis, there are still requirements on what can/can't
be done and a good source is good.

I suppose the problem in the w/ the similar type thing is the
proliferation of level of code acceptance/modification by jurisdiction
makes such an endeavor prohibitively expensive to maintain for the
size of market. Probably something to do with how NEC holds licensing
and copyright rules as well... Sounds like it would be the ticket,
though.

I'm lucky in that live in a rural area not subject to local code/
inspection so I use what level of compliance I'm comfortable with --
which is about to the mid-1980's or so... Seemed to me to work
adequately then and I see little of real significance for the average
application in the more recent changes. I do/would check for "what's
new" in cases of any large new or out-of-the-ordinary installation,
though.

According to dpb :
On Apr 19, 2:07 pm, (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to dpb :

If it's like NEC (which I suspect it is), I presume Chris is thinking
of the accessibility rules on exposed cabling (he can obviously
correct/amplify if I'm guessing wrong). The definition of what
constitutes "access" and "use" is such that even if all there is is a
trap door w/ a ladder and you go up there once a year for storage,
strictly speaking there should be no exposed wiring but all protected.

It's not so much accessibility of J-boxes (which is required of course),
with more than, er, 1M (~39") I think of headroom, because they're a
snag hazard. There's other stuff about headroom, etc. Most of these
rules are similar to the NEC, but the details are different.

[...snip very nice discussion of sources for (primarily) CN
participants...]...

CN is in Asia. I have no idea what their codes are like (if they
in fact have _any_) We're CA ;-)

That's the thing which I figured was probably the "gotcha" over what I
lot of homeowners see/do in attics that I figured Dom probably wasn't
thinking about as a limitation/problem...even though the space isn't
used on a daily basis, there are still requirements on what can/can't
be done and a good source is good.

Right.

I suppose the problem in the w/ the similar type thing is the
proliferation of level of code acceptance/modification by jurisdiction
makes such an endeavor prohibitively expensive to maintain for the
size of market. Probably something to do with how NEC holds licensing
and copyright rules as well... Sounds like it would be the ticket,
though.

There's a couple of factors that makes Knight's books feasible,
despite the smaller market:

a) There's at most 9 markets, not 50
[It would be 10, but DIY electrical is illegal in Quebec]

As it turns out, there are three versions: Ontario (CEC +
amendments), BC (CEC + amendments), and the "Alberta,
Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and
Newfoundland" "pure CEC, no mods" version..

Aha, Dom's right, I see the BC and Ontario 2007-2010 versions
aren't out yet. Ontario one is due May 10th, BC date isn't
firmed up yet. This will make about the fifth one I've bought.

If Dom is in Ontario or BC, he should wait a bit if he can,
tho, for this job it probably won't make any difference.

b) Electrical codes (CEC, and CSA inspection standards) as
amended for the province + inspection rules are force of
law in _all_ provinces. You can theoretically go to jail
for a code violation. Truly local variation tends to be
quite minor.

c) The books are _cheap_ and easy to update. The MSRP for
Knight is only $13.95 CDN. The US ones are at least double that
in US dollars.

d) the CEC is written a little more simply/clearly than the NEC
from what I've been able to make out ;-)

There are likely some analogous books in the US, but they're
not nation-wide, and aimed more at tradesmen (eg: CodeCheck
or Mike Holt's http://www.mikeholt.com) than DIYers.

Compare http://www.mikeholt.com to http://www.psknight.com in
terms of cost of production of the web site.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks for your help. I have a clear vision how to do this now. I have
also invested in some books.

Dom