Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

On Mar 12, 7:00�am, Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. *My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? *I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. *Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. *How about 17 amps? *How about 18? ... *(How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). *In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12? *
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? *I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. *In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. *No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

well in the case of the table saw the added voltage drop of 14 gauge
wire will cause poor performance. stalling on knots, slow cutting etc.


I went with 12 gauge 20 amp breakers for a temporary install at a fire
damaged home once. Ran a main line up the stairwell with outlkets on
every floor, and a main off switch at entry door to kill everything at
nite.

My friend the owner freaked because he had rolls of 14 gauge lying
around, and lots of used junk outlets........

I told him it wasnt worth the hassles...

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

Well, my 23a water heater was on #12 for over thirty years.
I had a multiwire circuit connected to the same leg for 20 years.
I had three 20a heating circuits connected to a 50a breaker for 30 years.
Any of those could have burnt the house down, but didn't. Presumably that
is because of the margin of error, but they could also have have really
burnt the house down.

Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this?

14/12/10 gauge wiring in particular when used for "regular" outlets has
quite a bit of safety margin.

For instance, your standard #14 romex has 90degree insulation. Normally
this would allow you to put 18A through it (if we derate it as two
conductors together), but its limited to a 15A breaker except for
special circumstances. That's an extra 20% margin on top of the regular
margin for wire amperage ratings.

Chris

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...

Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code.

Why not ask whatever agency prepares the NEC?

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Mar 12, 10:09�am, Chris Friesen wrote:
Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. *My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this?

14/12/10 gauge wiring in particular when used for "regular" outlets has
quite a bit of safety margin.

For instance, your standard #14 romex has 90degree insulation. *Normally
this would allow you to put 18A through it (if we derate it as two
conductors together), but its limited to a 15A breaker except for
special circumstances. *That's an extra 20% margin on top of the regular
margin for wire amperage ratings.

Chris

then again a 15 amp breaker will carry more than 15 amps for a short
period of time.

I checked my neighbors outdoor christmal lights one time. he was a
griswald, has sice quit

anyhow the breaker that tripped would trip about every 1/2 hour, it
was running about 17 amps.

On Mar 12, 10:50 am, "Don Phillipson"
wrote:
"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message

.net...

Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code.

Why not ask whatever agency prepares the NEC?

I suspect that all you'd get from them would be a form letter
explaining that you should never stray outside the code. And
justifiably, since 'officially' specifying how much headroom there is
in these requirements could be (and likely would be) interpreted as
tacit approval for exceeding them. Kind of like a posted speed limit
- if a cop tells you verbally that they won't write you a ticket for
exceeding the limit by less than 5 mph, that's one thing. If, on the
other hand, he gives you a piece of paper or an email saying this,
then the speed limit 'officially' becomes 5 mph above the posted limit.

I contaced UL ONCE about a pretty serious safety issue, on machines I
service for a living.

Honestly they werent interested

I was very disappointed becuse someday what I happened to find could
kill someone.

They took the info the company never fixed the issue

Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

Mike
You don't need anyones permission to endanger yourself and your family.
If you are determined to ignore the code just do it. For my bread work
I'm an electrician. For my contribution to my community I'm a volunteer
firefighter. It's cheaper to use my services when I'm wearing my
firefighter's protective clothing but it's a lot safer to either learn
to do it safely yourself or higher me to do it for you.

It is true that when used in certain specific applications, with
specific loads, protected in specific ways, that number fourteen
American Wire Gage (AWG) copper conductors can carry more than fifteen
amperes.

I learned how to apply those uses during a four year apprenticeship
working with experienced electricians and going to school two nights a
week for those four years. Now you want me to spoon feed you the
ampacity rules, in toto, in a newsgroup posting. I'm sorry but that
cannot be done.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...
Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious.

There is some extra built in and the total load it can handle depends of
factors like temperature, insulation in wall, etc. My only concern for a
temporary setup is that the saw will be underpowered and either stalling or
even burning up the motor if used for a long time. OTOH, a friend built a
house and had a radial arm saw for cutting siding and 2 x 4's and it worked
OK on a 50' extension cord that was probably 16 ga.

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?).


You can carry more than the rated capacity...BUT you are asking for some
grief. For instance if you have wire running in free air you can pump more
amps through it leagaly, but you might not want to.

Think about jumper cables. If your youth was anything like mine at one
point in time you had a clunker that you tried to jump start with a cheap
pair of jumper cables. When you went to crank the engine over, it would
crank really slow and you kept cranking hoping it would catch. You would
stop cranking and wait a lottle and then crank it again and finally she
would start when you grabbed the cable you burned the **** out of your hand
because you were sucking way too many amps down a way too small wire for way
too long of a time.

Later when you got smart, you got another set of jumper cables that had
some nice heavy gauge copper in them that will carry lots of electrons.

Now I have a pair that I have jump started a semi with a Toyota with no
problem.



In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard?

It is a hazard imediatly, you get away with it until the smoke starts and
then you loose a house. In the pinch if all I had was 14 gague I would run
the wires double and carry twice as much with out getting them smoking or
burning out the motor.


I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing.

And after the fire department investigated the cause was charged. This is
why on the old fuse boxes they installed T type fuses to prevent over fusing
of the edison socket fuse boxes. This also prevented people from using the
penny trick to burn down their houses.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this?

I'd say at least double. Double is the usual standard when making things
safe.

The Brooklyn Bridge, for example, used a factor of eight, but that was
because of the loonies living in Brooklyn. Plus, I think it was a cost-plus
job.

In article ,
says...

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?).


You can carry more than the rated capacity...BUT you are asking for some
grief. For instance if you have wire running in free air you can pump more
amps through it leagaly, but you might not want to.

Think about jumper cables. If your youth was anything like mine at one
point in time you had a clunker that you tried to jump start with a cheap
pair of jumper cables. When you went to crank the engine over, it would
crank really slow and you kept cranking hoping it would catch. You would
stop cranking and wait a lottle and then crank it again and finally she
would start when you grabbed the cable you burned the **** out of your hand
because you were sucking way too many amps down a way too small wire for way
too long of a time.

Later when you got smart, you got another set of jumper cables that had
some nice heavy gauge copper in them that will carry lots of electrons.

Now I have a pair that I have jump started a semi with a Toyota with no
problem.

Not counting the semi/Toyota part, I could have written that, myself.

In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard?

It is a hazard imediatly, you get away with it until the smoke starts and
then you loose a house. In the pinch if all I had was 14 gague I would run
the wires double and carry twice as much with out getting them smoking or
burning out the motor.


I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing.

And after the fire department investigated the cause was charged. This is
why on the old fuse boxes they installed T type fuses to prevent over fusing
of the edison socket fuse boxes. This also prevented people from using the
penny trick to burn down their houses.

This has got to be some kind of record! It was a full 8 hours 48
minutes before somebody gave the compulsory "You're an idiot for
asking a question like that - Hire a pro.". Mike asked a pretty
simple question. The closest you came to answering it was saying
that posting something (that wouldn't answer his question, BTW) can't
be done.

In article k.net,
says...
Mike Hartigan wrote:
Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

Mike
You don't need anyones permission to endanger yourself and your family.
If you are determined to ignore the code just do it. For my bread work
I'm an electrician. For my contribution to my community I'm a volunteer
firefighter. It's cheaper to use my services when I'm wearing my
firefighter's protective clothing but it's a lot safer to either learn
to do it safely yourself or higher me to do it for you.

It is true that when used in certain specific applications, with
specific loads, protected in specific ways, that number fourteen
American Wire Gage (AWG) copper conductors can carry more than fifteen
amperes.

I learned how to apply those uses during a four year apprenticeship
working with experienced electricians and going to school two nights a
week for those four years. Now you want me to spoon feed you the
ampacity rules, in toto, in a newsgroup posting. I'm sorry but that
cannot be done.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Mike Hartigan" wrote in message
.net...
Think about jumper cables. If your youth was anything like mine at one
point in time you had a clunker that you tried to jump start with a
cheap
pair of jumper cables. When you went to crank the engine over, it would
crank really slow and you kept cranking hoping it would catch. You
would
stop cranking and wait a lottle and then crank it again and finally she
would start when you grabbed the cable you burned the **** out of your
hand
because you were sucking way too many amps down a way too small wire for
way
too long of a time.

Later when you got smart, you got another set of jumper cables that had
some nice heavy gauge copper in them that will carry lots of electrons.

Now I have a pair that I have jump started a semi with a Toyota with no
problem.

Not counting the semi/Toyota part, I could have written that, myself.

I just assumed that it was a right of passage.

Jeremy Scott wrote:
This has got to be some kind of record! It was a full 8 hours 48
minutes before somebody gave the compulsory "You're an idiot for
asking a question like that - Hire a pro.". Mike asked a pretty
simple question. The closest you came to answering it was saying
that posting something (that wouldn't answer his question, BTW) can't
be done.

Jeremy
Your pretty quick with the accusations. What I said was I can't give
you an understanding of the ampacity of electrical conductors in a
single news group posting. And what I suggested is that he "either
learn to do it safely yourself or higher me to do it for you." I also
said that there are indeed some circumstances were 14 gage copper can
carry more than fifteen amperes safely. I never called him an idiot and
I only offered the option of a qualified electrician if he was unwilling
to take the time to learn to do it correctly himself.

It amazes me that some people think that the rules are some mega
conspiracy to rip them off. They represent the accumulated experience
of the industry in over a hundred years of actual use and each item in
them is there because someone else learned the hard way that that rule
was needed to provide a reasonable level of safety.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:00:31 -0500, Mike Hartigan
wrote:

Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

The NEC is just a guideline. If you follow it closely (and use a
little common sense) you get more safety and convenience.
Unfortunately, few electricians follow the NEC due to cost. "Do you
want the job done for $350 or do you want me to follow the NEC and do
the job for $550?"

In article ,
says...
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:00:31 -0500, Mike Hartigan
wrote:

Without consulting the code, it seems that everyone "just knows" that
14 gauge is used for 15 amps, 12 for 20 amps, etc. My question is -
how much margin of safety is there in this? I'm assuming that the
temperature of the wire at load was used to actually establish the
code. Presumably, though, 14 gauge could carry 16 amps without
creating a hazard. How about 17 amps? How about 18? ... (How many
hairs does it take to make a beard?). In a pinch, if you were
building something temporary - something you were going to tear down
in a week or two - would you use the 14 gauge you have on hand for
your table saw, or would you make a special trip to the store for 12?
At what point does the heat create an actual fire hazard? I'm not
considering over-fusing anything - I'm just curious. In Grandpa's
day, it was standard homeowner practice to simply insert a bigger
fuse when one kept blowing. No doubt the elders who wrote the
various versions of the code were aware of this practice and took it
into consideration when deciding on the numbers.

The NEC is just a guideline. If you follow it closely (and use a
little common sense) you get more safety and convenience.
Unfortunately, few electricians follow the NEC due to cost. "Do you
want the job done for $350 or do you want me to follow the NEC and do
the job for $550?"

Frankly, I never considered the NEC and its local variants to be
optional in any way. I was simply curious as to how the numbers were
arrived at, knowing that overfusing is a fact of life (although it's
probably less common with breakers). One must also consider that
badly behaving appliances may occasionally draw more than indicated
on the label or that the consumer may plug in one too many 250 watt
lamps. Presumably, the breaker would prevent things from getting out
of hand, but what about the '15 amp' breaker that trips at 17 amps?
Will that create a real fire hazard with 14 gauge wire? Or was that
possibility considered when the code was developed?

On Mar 13, 8:01?am, Mike Hartigan wrote:

Frankly, I never considered the NEC and its local variants to be
optional in any way. I was simply curious as to how the numbers were
arrived at, knowing that overfusing is a fact of life (although it's
probably less common with breakers). One must also consider that
badly behaving appliances may occasionally draw more than indicated
on the label or that the consumer may plug in one too many 250 watt
lamps. Presumably, the breaker would prevent things from getting out
of hand, but what about the '15 amp' breaker that trips at 17 amps?
Will that create a real fire hazard with 14 gauge wire? Or was that
possibility considered when the code was developed?

Yes. The people who write the NEC are fully aware that there is a lot
of potential for people to use the wrong wire and overfuse circuits,
especially the more common 15 and 20 amp circuits. See (2002) NEC
240.4(D). A 15 amp breaker that trips after 1/2 hour of being loaded
with 17 amps sounds about right, and yes there is some cushion built
in for such. Knowing these things, the NEC requires #14 to be fused
at 15 amps, #12 at 20 amps, etc., per 240.4(D). Call it idiot
proofing if you want.

Much of the NEC is based on past experience. It's actually quite
difficult to make a significant change to the NEC, and people who
submit proposals are required to substantiate their claims, be it
documentation of deaths, fires, or whatever. Then the CMP's (Code
Making Panels) consider it. Then it's voted on (IF it makes it past
the CMP's). Actually it's a bit more involved than that, but that's
the general idea.

It's much easier (IMHO, also safer) to make a general statement
(240.4(D)) than to size wire according to the many NEC rules that
apply. See 210.3, which says that branch-circuit conductors rated at
15,20, 30, 40, and 50 amps must be protected at there ratings and
210.19(A), both of which take precedence over 240.4(B).

See Table 310.16. It says that a #14 can take 20 amps. BUT, if you
look at the bottom of the page, one must consider ambient
temperature. Is it safe to say that attics reach 105 degrees F? The
correction factor is then 0.87. 20 x 0.87 = 17.4 amps. That means a
20 amp breaker can't be used in that case per 210.19(A).

There are also correction factors that reduce the ampacity even more
when there are more than 3 current carrying conductors in a cable or
raceway. One must also be able to determine what a current carrying
conductor is per NEC 310.15(B)4.

Also see 334.80, which basically says that ampacities for Romex _must_
be taken from the 60 degree C column in Table 310.16.

Of course, my favorite, 210.2 says that "the provisions for branch
circuits supplying equipment in Table 210.2 amend or supplement the
provisions in Article 210 and shall apply to branch circuits referred
to therein."

See what I'm getting at? Why wade through all that crap just to run a
wire? What layman is going to understand all that? What layman
_wants_ to understand all that? I can assure you that even some
otherwise good electrician's can't sort it all out. How can a
homeowner be expected too?

The NEC is not intended as an instruction manual. It's a manual for
experienced people in the electric industry, who already understand
most of the principles discussed, and provides MINIMUM requirements
for electric installations.

The NEC sections that I have referenced can be viewed he
http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?c...kie% 5Ftest=1

As Tom Horne said, one just can't answer your question in one post.
It takes many years of study and research to understand the NEC. Even
then one must constantly seek advice from industry professionals and
books/journals to insure that we are interpreting and applying it
correctly. Experience in the field helps a lot too, as one gets input
from electrical inspectors and also becomes familiar with the industry
standard methods of doing things.

If you want to try to understand the NEC and have $150 (US) to spare,
the NEC HANDBOOK is a good place to start, as it explains much of the
purpose behind the NEC and clarifies a lot of it. One must also study
the definitions provided by the NEC, otherwise one just will not
understand what is being said. Many of the words used by the NEC
don't mean the same thing in layman's speak.

That's the tip of the iceburg. Hope this helps.

On Mar 13, 6:31 am, Phisherman wrote:

The NEC is just a guideline. If you follow it closely (and use a
little common sense) you get more safety and convenience.
Unfortunately, few electricians follow the NEC due to cost. "Do you
want the job done for $350 or do you want me to follow the NEC and do
the job for $550?"

If that's the kind of experience that you've had with electrician's,
then I'd say it's your responsibility to send 'em on down the road
when they make offers like that. Somebody like that, even if they
charge you for an "installation to code", you're NOT going to get it.
Agreed, there's plenty of residential hacks out there who couldn't
make a code compliant installation even if they wanted too.

As an electrician, I find that it's the opposite. It's the customers
(some, not all) who try to get the electrician to cut corners. I
simply tell them to call someone else. I gotta sleep at night. I'm
not going to purposely do something that will jeopardize someones life
and the ONLY way that I know how to do that is to install electric
equipment according to code. I've been fired from jobs for refusing
to do work to code, lost work, and will continue to refuse to not do
work to code. How would you feel if a 4 year old child was
electrocuted or killed in a fire because some asshole didn't have the
intestinal fortitute to stand up to some clown who was too cheap to
pay for a proper installation? When I am confronted by people who
_truly_ cannot afford to pay for what needs to be done right, I just
go ahead and do it right, then charge them what they can afford to
pay. Now you know why I jump on people in this NG who post dangerous
or bogus electrical info. I figure folks are going to DIY regardless,
so one may as well try to help them get the right info rather than
keeping them in the dark.

On Mar 13, 9:11 pm, "volts500" wrote:
On Mar 13, 6:31 am, Phisherman wrote:

The NEC is just a guideline. If you follow it closely (and use a
little common sense) you get more safety and convenience.
Unfortunately, few electricians follow the NEC due to cost. "Do you
want the job done for $350 or do you want me to follow the NEC and do
the job for $550?"

If that's the kind of experience that you've had with electrician's,
then I'd say it's your responsibility to send 'em on down the road
when they make offers like that. Somebody like that, even if they
charge you for an "installation to code", you're NOT going to get it.
Agreed, there's plenty of residential hacks out there who couldn't
make a code compliant installation even if they wanted too.

As an electrician, I find that it's the opposite. It's the customers
(some, not all) who try to get the electrician to cut corners. I
simply tell them to call someone else. I gotta sleep at night. I'm
not going to purposely do something that will jeopardize someones life
and the ONLY way that I know how to do that is to install electric
equipment according to code. I've been fired from jobs for refusing
to do work to code, lost work, and will continue to refuse to not do
work to code. How would you feel if a 4 year old child was
electrocuted or killed in a fire because some asshole didn't have the
intestinal fortitute to stand up to some clown who was too cheap to
pay for a proper installation? When I am confronted by people who
_truly_ cannot afford to pay for what needs to be done right, I just
go ahead and do it right, then charge them what they can afford to
pay. Now you know why I jump on people in this NG who post dangerous
or bogus electrical info. I figure folks are going to DIY regardless,
so one may as well try to help them get the right info rather than
keeping them in the dark.

Typo, make that:

"I've been fired from jobs for refusing to do work that is NOT to
code, lost work, and will continue to refuse to not do work that is
NOT to code."

In article m,
says...
On Mar 13, 9:11 pm, "volts500" wrote:
On Mar 13, 6:31 am, Phisherman wrote:

The NEC is just a guideline. If you follow it closely (and use a
little common sense) you get more safety and convenience.
Unfortunately, few electricians follow the NEC due to cost. "Do you
want the job done for $350 or do you want me to follow the NEC and do
the job for $550?"

If that's the kind of experience that you've had with electrician's,
then I'd say it's your responsibility to send 'em on down the road
when they make offers like that. Somebody like that, even if they
charge you for an "installation to code", you're NOT going to get it.
Agreed, there's plenty of residential hacks out there who couldn't
make a code compliant installation even if they wanted too.

As an electrician, I find that it's the opposite. It's the customers
(some, not all) who try to get the electrician to cut corners. I
simply tell them to call someone else. I gotta sleep at night. I'm
not going to purposely do something that will jeopardize someones life
and the ONLY way that I know how to do that is to install electric
equipment according to code. I've been fired from jobs for refusing
to do work to code, lost work, and will continue to refuse to not do
work to code. How would you feel if a 4 year old child was
electrocuted or killed in a fire because some asshole didn't have the
intestinal fortitute to stand up to some clown who was too cheap to
pay for a proper installation? When I am confronted by people who
_truly_ cannot afford to pay for what needs to be done right, I just
go ahead and do it right, then charge them what they can afford to
pay. Now you know why I jump on people in this NG who post dangerous
or bogus electrical info. I figure folks are going to DIY regardless,
so one may as well try to help them get the right info rather than
keeping them in the dark.

Typo, make that:

"I've been fired from jobs for refusing to do work that is NOT to
code, lost work, and will continue to refuse to not do work that is
NOT to code."

I automatically made the correction the second time I re-read that
sentence.