Hi:
We're remodeling the bathroom in our small 1930s house. I'd like to put
radiant heating in to replace the radiator that's there now. From my
reading, I'm thinking of adding loops of oxygen-barrier PEX under the
floor (easily accessible from the unfinished basement) and tying it into
our existing natural gas hot water boiler radiator system. The system is
closed loop with iron pipes and radiators. I was thinking of using heat
spreaders & then insulating below the tubing. Does anyone have any
advice on this? Am I likely to need a tempering valve to reduce the
temperature of the water in the system? Are heat spreaders unnecessary?
Any problems with tying into the iron pipes?
Thanks in advance,
Freud

Freud wrote:
Hi:
We're remodeling the bathroom in our small 1930s house. I'd like to
put radiant heating in to replace the radiator that's there now. From
my reading, I'm thinking of adding loops of oxygen-barrier PEX under
the floor (easily accessible from the unfinished basement) and tying
it into our existing natural gas hot water boiler radiator system.
The system is closed loop with iron pipes and radiators. I was
thinking of using heat spreaders & then insulating below the tubing.
Does anyone have any advice on this? Am I likely to need a tempering
valve to reduce the temperature of the water in the system? Are heat
spreaders unnecessary? Any problems with tying into the iron pipes?
Thanks in advance,
Freud

If its closed loop system how can you add a tempering valve to lower the
temp to the loop? You would have to dump water out of the system to put cold
water (that has disolved oxygen in it) back in and then get the air out of
that? Am I missing something?

I like idea of radiant heat but not in your case.

Rich

In article m,
says...
Freud wrote:
Hi:
We're remodeling the bathroom in our small 1930s house. I'd like to
put radiant heating in to replace the radiator that's there now. From
my reading, I'm thinking of adding loops of oxygen-barrier PEX under
the floor (easily accessible from the unfinished basement) and tying
it into our existing natural gas hot water boiler radiator system.
The system is closed loop with iron pipes and radiators. I was
thinking of using heat spreaders & then insulating below the tubing.
Does anyone have any advice on this? Am I likely to need a tempering
valve to reduce the temperature of the water in the system? Are heat
spreaders unnecessary? Any problems with tying into the iron pipes?
Thanks in advance,
Freud

If its closed loop system how can you add a tempering valve to lower the
temp to the loop? You would have to dump water out of the system to put cold
water (that has disolved oxygen in it) back in and then get the air out of
that? Am I missing something?

I like idea of radiant heat but not in your case.

Rich

That's a good point - as you can see I don't really know what I'm doing,
I had just read about people adding tempering valves so I threw it out
there. I'm not sure how hot the current system runs, and I'm also not
sure what's optimal for radiant heat, though I've read that 100-110
degrees F is a good range.
Thanks for your help!
Freud

On Mar 1, 1:28 pm, Freud wrote:
Hi:
We're remodeling the bathroom in our small 1930s house. I'd like to put
radiant heating in to replace the radiator that's there now. From my
reading, I'm thinking of adding loops of oxygen-barrier PEX under the
floor (easily accessible from the unfinished basement) and tying it into
our existing natural gas hot water boiler radiator system. The system is
closed loop with iron pipes and radiators. I was thinking of using heat
spreaders & then insulating below the tubing. Does anyone have any
advice on this? Am I likely to need a tempering valve to reduce the
temperature of the water in the system? Are heat spreaders unnecessary?
Any problems with tying into the iron pipes?

I am no expert but have looked into such a system for my own place.
Most radiant system run a cool 120 degreees F. That doesn't mean you
can't run it at a higher temp you likely can. The pipe will handle it
so the only question is the flooring. What type of flooring do you
have? How hot does your boiler run?

The pipes will be thermostatically controlled so they would have to
cycle on and off more often. Some flooring may not stand up to such
hot pipes or such frequent changes. A mixing valve is not a big deal
from what I understand.

The designs I have seen use the metal spreaders but they are not
necessary. Staples are also available which are just nailed to the
joists. Some people claim that the spreaders make an annoying noise
as they expand and contract. Manufacturers claim they have solved
that problem. If you assume that insulation will be placed into the
joists under the pipes then spreaders seem less of a concern to my
mind.

A manifold is usually used in hydronic setups. This could be as
simple a a tee and a valve which branches off the main line. the
advantage is that an electronicallly controlled valve can be used with
thermostats in the living quarters to have as many different zones as
you wish. If you only want one zone then fine but if you want more
control the hydronic systems are well suited for multiple zones. I
would be cool to have a zone for each room and one for the hallway
too. In Minnesota we heat our houses for 10 months of the year.

Freud wrote:

In article m,
says...
Freud wrote:
Hi:
We're remodeling the bathroom in our small 1930s house. I'd like to
put radiant heating in to replace the radiator that's there now. From
my reading, I'm thinking of adding loops of oxygen-barrier PEX under
the floor (easily accessible from the unfinished basement) and tying
it into our existing natural gas hot water boiler radiator system.
The system is closed loop with iron pipes and radiators. I was
thinking of using heat spreaders & then insulating below the tubing.
Does anyone have any advice on this? Am I likely to need a tempering
valve to reduce the temperature of the water in the system? Are heat
spreaders unnecessary? Any problems with tying into the iron pipes?
Thanks in advance,
Freud

If its closed loop system how can you add a tempering valve to lower the
temp to the loop? You would have to dump water out of the system to put cold
water (that has disolved oxygen in it) back in and then get the air out of
that? Am I missing something?

I like idea of radiant heat but not in your case.

Rich

That's a good point - as you can see I don't really know what I'm doing,
I had just read about people adding tempering valves so I threw it out
there. I'm not sure how hot the current system runs, and I'm also not
sure what's optimal for radiant heat, though I've read that 100-110
degrees F is a good range.
Thanks for your help!
Freud

You don't need a separate cold water supply to temper the water in a
closed loop, the valves designed for this purpose simply recirculate the
"sub loop" water mixing in heated water from the "main loop" side as
necessary to control the temp. You typically need an additional
circulator pump. The radiant heating system manufacturers have all the
necessary components and expertise for this type of setup and typically
can provide a design service and complete installation package for what
you want. Pickup a copy of Fine Home Building and you'll find ads for
many of the manufacturers and can review the info on their web sites.

Pete C.

snip

I am no expert but have looked into such a system for my own place.
Most radiant system run a cool 120 degreees F. That doesn't mean you
can't run it at a higher temp you likely can. The pipe will handle it
so the only question is the flooring. What type of flooring do you
have? How hot does your boiler run?

We'll probably put in ceramic tile, but we haven't decided yet. I'm
going to try to find out how hot my boiler runs.

The pipes will be thermostatically controlled so they would have to
cycle on and off more often. Some flooring may not stand up to such
hot pipes or such frequent changes. A mixing valve is not a big deal
from what I understand.

Since our system just pumps the hot water around in a sealed loop (aside
from a pressure relief valve), I think that it could be a problem as
Rich pointed out above. But it might not be a dealbreaker if the floor
can take it. The other concern, of course, would be that we don't want
the floor too be too hot or we'll be jumping around like cats on a hot
tin roof!

snip

A manifold is usually used in hydronic setups. This could be as
simple a a tee and a valve which branches off the main line. the
advantage is that an electronicallly controlled valve can be used with
thermostats in the living quarters to have as many different zones as
you wish. If you only want one zone then fine but if you want more
control the hydronic systems are well suited for multiple zones. I
would be cool to have a zone for each room and one for the hallway
too. In Minnesota we heat our houses for 10 months of the year.


The zone idea is nice, but in our small house might be overkill.
Thanks!
Freud

On Mar 1, 3:47 pm, Freud wrote:
We'll probably put in ceramic tile, but we haven't decided yet. I'm
going to try to find out how hot my boiler runs.

Warm tile sounds nice but tile may be one of the least flexible
flooring and prone to cracking if real hot water is used
intermittently underneath. There is laminate flooring which is
popular in plastic,real wood, bamboo, vinyl and god knows what all.

They attach to each other and not to the floor allowing them to
float. Resiliant flooring like vinyl are time tested and cost-
effective. New flooring products are coming out every day it seems
especially with the floating floors . It's not as durable or water
resistant as tiles probably and maybe not the best choice in a bath or
kitchen. I know that they are constantly improving and upgrading this
type of flooring since it seems to be a popular choice. Some come
with great warranties for whatever it's worth.

The pipes will be thermostatically controlled so they would have to
cycle on and off more often. Some flooring may not stand up to such
hot pipes or such frequent changes. A mixing valve is not a big deal
from what I understand.

Since our system just pumps the hot water around in a sealed loop (aside
from a pressure relief valve), I think that it could be a problem as
Rich pointed out above. But it might not be a dealbreaker if the floor
can take it. The other concern, of course, would be that we don't want
the floor too be too hot or we'll be jumping around like cats on a hot
tin roof!

Haha, it's always a good idea to talk to a real plumber to give you
an opinion before you decide. One concern is the capacity of the
boiler and what the maximum usage of that capacity may be during the
coldest possible weather. My guess is that it can be done if the
boiler is big enough. Since you have a boiler in place I think it
makes you a better candidate for hydronic heat than not.

Of course you do the work in the summer. You have to shut down the
system and drain it down before you can work on it. You can cut the
pipe and tee off the main loop to the mixing loop. You likely use an
anti back flow device at that point. Then you can build or install
the mixing loop before the water entering the floor. The
thermostatically controlled valve can come after the mixer. Pete C.
gave a superb explanation of how the mixing works. You should take his
advice and run your ideas past some pros.