Hello gang,

Just discovered this group and the material here is awesome.

I have plenty of DIY experience and used to do home repair work, I did
some work with an electrician but certainly do not think I am an
expert.

My question involves adding recessed ceiling lights in my bedroom.

IMPORTANT FACT - I do have attic access. I will be able to run or
change Romex as needed.

Currently, I have 2 switches on the wall next to my bedroom door.
Switch A is for the bathroom and has 2 control buttons - one for the
fan and one for the light. Switch B is on the same power source but
only controls an overhead ceiling fan with light fixtures (which are
controlled by 2 small pull chains). I want to keep all of these things
as they are.

I want to add about 5 lights in two separate groups that can be shut
off/turned on and dimmed by group. Group 1 would consist of 2 over the
bed and 1 over the dresser. Group 2 would be 2 lights over my home
office/desk area. All of this is in my bedroom.

I imagine in my mind a dimmer switch controlling my DESK area lights
leaving the other lights off to stop energy waste. Of course in vice
versa, I want to read in bed so I would want those lights on and the
DESK area off.

I know I will have to cut open the switch area on the wall, make it
bigger, then mud, tape and paint it. No problem there! I just cannot
see the wiring layout in my mind, don't know which switches would be
the correct choice and not sure if it is even possible from one power
source. I am sure I will have to run 2 lines of 14/3 in the attic and
drop it down to the wall switch power source.

If you can help me, please be detailed and clear. Do not assume I will
know the trade slang and if possible, please e-mail me a diagram drawn
on the PC in MS Paint, etc. if you can.


Thanks in advance and know that I really appreciate any help.

On 25 Feb 2007 15:58:44 -0800, "Brian_SouthJersey"
wrote:


I know I will have to cut open the switch area on the wall, make it
bigger, then mud, tape and paint it. No problem there! I just cannot

STill it might be easier or look better, not sure, to cut another hole
above or below the current one.

see the wiring layout in my mind, don't know which switches would be
the correct choice and not sure if it is even possible from one power
source. I am sure I will have to run 2 lines of 14/3 in the attic and
drop it down to the wall switch power source.

If you can help me, please be detailed and clear. Do not assume I will
know the trade slang and if possible, please e-mail me a diagram drawn
on the PC in MS Paint, etc. if you can.

I used to have MS Paint but can't find it. Isn't it supposed to be in
Win98SE?

Thanks in advance and know that I really appreciate any help.

"Brian_SouthJersey" wrote in message
s.com...
Hello gang,

Just discovered this group and the material here is awesome.

I have plenty of DIY experience and used to do home repair work, I did
some work with an electrician but certainly do not think I am an
expert.

My question involves adding recessed ceiling lights in my bedroom.

IMPORTANT FACT - I do have attic access. I will be able to run or
change Romex as needed.

Currently, I have 2 switches on the wall next to my bedroom door.
Switch A is for the bathroom and has 2 control buttons - one for the
fan and one for the light. Switch B is on the same power source but
only controls an overhead ceiling fan with light fixtures (which are
controlled by 2 small pull chains). I want to keep all of these things
as they are.

I want to add about 5 lights in two separate groups that can be shut
off/turned on and dimmed by group. Group 1 would consist of 2 over the
bed and 1 over the dresser. Group 2 would be 2 lights over my home
office/desk area. All of this is in my bedroom.

I imagine in my mind a dimmer switch controlling my DESK area lights
leaving the other lights off to stop energy waste. Of course in vice
versa, I want to read in bed so I would want those lights on and the
DESK area off.

I know I will have to cut open the switch area on the wall, make it
bigger, then mud, tape and paint it. No problem there! I just cannot
see the wiring layout in my mind, don't know which switches would be
the correct choice and not sure if it is even possible from one power
source. I am sure I will have to run 2 lines of 14/3 in the attic and
drop it down to the wall switch power source.

If you can help me, please be detailed and clear. Do not assume I will
know the trade slang and if possible, please e-mail me a diagram drawn
on the PC in MS Paint, etc. if you can.


Thanks in advance and know that I really appreciate any help.


Open up the existing switches and confirm that you have a hot and neutral
there. Then undo all of the connections and MARK them so you will be able
to put them back the way they were. You didn't say what the existing wiring
consisted of or how old the house is. If the existing switch box is plastic
you may be able to pry it off the stud without damaging the wall. If it is
metal it may not be so easy, but give it a shot anyway. Once you get the
old box out cut a hole for a new four gang box or cut the opening for the
four gang box first, then remove the existing box. You will have more room
to work that way..

Next lay out your fixtures, mark the centers and confirm that there are no
obstacles for their installation by pushing a thin screwdriver through the
center in several different directions. A short piece of fish tape or a
coat hangar wire would be useful for this also. If you encounter any
obstacles such as a joist, pipe, or duct you will need to tweak your
layout. Draw the circle using the template and cut the holes for the
fixtures. Go up in the attic with a drill and a fish tape and drill a hole
or two down to your switch location. Push the fish tape down the wall to the
switch location. Then go drill some holes in the joists between lights. Now
go back down and attach two 14/2 cables to the fish tape or have a helper do
this. Pull them up to the attic and run each one to the first light on each
row being sure to pull them through the joists. You will also need to
staple them along the joists.

Now go back down and cut the cable at the switch location. Take your roll
of cable and push the end up into one of the holes cut out for the lights.
Go back in the attic and run the wire from light to light through the joists
leaving enough slack at each location to wire up the lights from below. Go
back down and wire up the lights and install them.

Go the switch box location and bring the old and new wires into the four
gang box. The whites for the new lights go to the existing neutral. The
blacks will be the switch leg. You will need to make some pigtails off of
the existing hot wire to feed the new single pole switches or dimmers.

If you wanted to control these lights from multiple locations you would need
to run one 14/3 cable for each switch to another switch location. The red
and white would be the travelers. The black at the remote location would go
on the black screw of the 3-way switch. The black of the 14/3 at the four
gang box would get connected to the hot wire and the black from the 14/2
switch leg would go to the black screw on the 3-way switch or dimmer.

There are a lot of wiring diagrams on various web sites already. I don't
know exactly where they are, but perhaps another person will post those
links.

I hope this helps.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

STill it might be easier or look better, not sure, to cut another hole
above or below the current one

GOOD POINT! I will consider that.



I used to have MS Paint but can't find it. Isn't it supposed to be in
Win98SE?
I used to install computer networks. So to get to PAINT you can find
it under START then PROGRAMS then ACCESSORIES. It should be listed as
PAINT...not MS PAINT. lol If you have another program, you can use it.
I am running Windows XP Pro. So as long as your output is
to .JGP, .BMP, .PNG or something current, I should be able to view it.

You didn't say what the existing wiring
consisted of or how old the house is. If the existing switch box is plastic
you may be able to pry it off the stud without damaging the wall.

The 2 bedroom condo is 16 years old. All wiring is copper, current/up
to date and the boxes are plastic.


Push the fish tape down the wall to the
switch location. Then go drill some holes in the joists between lights. Now
go back down and attach two 14/2 cables to the fish tape or have a helper do
this. Pull them up to the attic and run each one to the first light on each
row being sure to pull them through the joists. You will also need to
staple them along the joists.

Do I really need to drill through the joists? I have attic access and
the attic is not finished. Would it be ok/smart to just allow the
cables to lay loose across the joists or maybe stapled over the tops
of the joists?
If this project goes well, I will be installing these same lights in
my kitchen. No access at all. If I should or have to drill through the
joists for the bedroom or kitchen, where on the joist should I drill?
I assume in the middle and no more than a 1 1/4" hole?

Go the switch box location and bring the old and new wires into the four
gang box. The whites for the new lights go to the existing neutral. The
blacks will be the switch leg. You will need to make some pigtails off of
the existing hot wire to feed the new single pole switches or dimmers.

Can I pigtail all four (I think my count is correct) of the black
wires to/from the one black/hot wire with one wire nut or is there a
better best practice I should use?

If you wanted to control these lights from multiple locations you would need
to run one 14/3 cable for each switch to another switch location. The red
and white would be the travelers. The black at the remote location would go
on the black screw of the 3-way switch. The black of the 14/3 at the four
gang box would get connected to the hot wire and the black from the 14/2
switch leg would go to the black screw on the 3-way switch or dimmer.

I was not going to do this. The distance is not far but I was thinking
of finding a remote to control/dim the lights with.



There are a lot of wiring diagrams on various web sites already. I don't
know exactly where they are, but perhaps another person will post those
links.

If anyone can find these it would be great. I have not found diagrams
that went beyond a switch and an outlet.

I hope this helps.

John Grabowskihttp://www.mrelectrician.tv

You were amazingly clear John with such a complicated question! Well
done sir!
Also, if anyone else is reading this just know that I am calling my
township today to see if I need a permit, etc for this. My condo
association has no rules for the inside unless it is a structural
alteration issue like removing, changing walls, closets, etc. MAKE IT
LEGAL and INSURABLE my friends!!!! I have been a licensed and full
time REALTOR real estate agent in southern NJ for years now and I
cannot begin to tell you the complicated and EXPENSIVE legal problems
that arise from DIYers that don't get permits!!!

On 26 Feb 2007 05:27:27 -0800, "Brian_SouthJersey"
wrote:



STill it might be easier or look better, not sure, to cut another hole
above or below the current one

GOOD POINT! I will consider that.



I used to have MS Paint but can't find it. Isn't it supposed to be in
Win98SE?
I used to install computer networks. So to get to PAINT you can find
it under START then PROGRAMS then ACCESSORIES. It should be listed as
PAINT...not MS PAINT. lol If you have another program, you can use it.
I am running Windows XP Pro. So as long as your output is
to .JGP, .BMP, .PNG or something current, I should be able to view it.

I found it! I use Start/Run, and there it is called mspaint, not
paint, like I was looking for. (I only found it by searching the web
for MS Paint and reminding myself that mspaint is one word by them.)

I needed it to save a jpg file from CraigsList. I want to sell
something but don't have a digital camera or a connected scanner, so I
thought I would just use someone else's picture of the same thing.
That's not wrong, is it? But there are 3 cargo carriers for sale in
Baltimore now just on craigslist, one that looks just like mine, so
now that I have the picture, I'm going to wait a while.

"Brian_SouthJersey" wrote in message
s.com...

You didn't say what the existing wiring
consisted of or how old the house is. If the existing switch box is
plastic
you may be able to pry it off the stud without damaging the wall.

The 2 bedroom condo is 16 years old. All wiring is copper, current/up
to date and the boxes are plastic.


Good. Plastic boxes are usually easier to remove without having to damage
the walls. This will avoid a patch job later.




Push the fish tape down the wall to the
switch location. Then go drill some holes in the joists between lights.
Now
go back down and attach two 14/2 cables to the fish tape or have a
helper do
this. Pull them up to the attic and run each one to the first light on
each
row being sure to pull them through the joists. You will also need to
staple them along the joists.

Do I really need to drill through the joists? I have attic access and
the attic is not finished. Would it be ok/smart to just allow the
cables to lay loose across the joists or maybe stapled over the tops
of the joists?

For an accessible attic space the wire must be protected. Sometimes people
put cartons for storage on top of the joists. Sometimes they lay sheets of
plywood down. I have found attics that way with plywood sitting on top of
wires. The alternative to drilling the joists is to install running boards
such as a 2" x 4" across the joists and staple the cables to the side of
them.


If this project goes well, I will be installing these same lights in
my kitchen. No access at all. If I should or have to drill through the
joists for the bedroom or kitchen, where on the joist should I drill?
I assume in the middle and no more than a 1 1/4" hole?

As close to the middle as possible, but you really only need to keep the
cable a minimum of 1 1/4" from the face of the joist.


Go the switch box location and bring the old and new wires into the four
gang box. The whites for the new lights go to the existing neutral.
The
blacks will be the switch leg. You will need to make some pigtails off
of
the existing hot wire to feed the new single pole switches or dimmers.

Can I pigtail all four (I think my count is correct) of the black
wires to/from the one black/hot wire with one wire nut or is there a
better best practice I should use?


You can do four pigtails from the one. Just use a proper size wire
connector approved for five #14's.



If you wanted to control these lights from multiple locations you would
need
to run one 14/3 cable for each switch to another switch location. The
red
and white would be the travelers. The black at the remote location
would go
on the black screw of the 3-way switch. The black of the 14/3 at the
four
gang box would get connected to the hot wire and the black from the 14/2
switch leg would go to the black screw on the 3-way switch or dimmer.

I was not going to do this. The distance is not far but I was thinking
of finding a remote to control/dim the lights with.


I don't have any suggestions for a remote unless you went with an X-10 type
system. I think there are remote controls for use with certain modules.
The wiring shouldn't be too much different. Instead of a switch you install
a module. It may however require a neutral conductor. Look up smart homes.





There are a lot of wiring diagrams on various web sites already. I
don't
know exactly where they are, but perhaps another person will post those
links.

If anyone can find these it would be great. I have not found diagrams
that went beyond a switch and an outlet.

I hope this helps.

John Grabowskihttp://www.mrelectrician.tv

You were amazingly clear John with such a complicated question! Well
done sir!


Thank you and you're welcome.



Also, if anyone else is reading this just know that I am calling my
township today to see if I need a permit, etc for this. My condo
association has no rules for the inside unless it is a structural
alteration issue like removing, changing walls, closets, etc. MAKE IT
LEGAL and INSURABLE my friends!!!! I have been a licensed and full
time REALTOR real estate agent in southern NJ for years now and I
cannot begin to tell you the complicated and EXPENSIVE legal problems
that arise from DIYers that don't get permits!!!


Excellent advice. I have seen that situation arise several times. The best
ones are from work that was done two or three owners ago.

I forgot to mention that you should check to make sure that you have room
for a four gang box before taking anything apart. Remove the switch plate
and with a thin screwdriver push along side the existing box. One side will
be solid wood. The other side should be hollow. Take a fish tape or coat
hangar wire and probe into the hollow side to see how wide the cavity is.
If it is not wide enough for a four gang box, then you might want to
consider the two gang box above or below option.



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
news

"Brian_SouthJersey" wrote in message
s.com...

You didn't say what the existing wiring
consisted of or how old the house is. If the existing switch box is
plastic
you may be able to pry it off the stud without damaging the wall.

The 2 bedroom condo is 16 years old. All wiring is copper, current/up
to date and the boxes are plastic.


Good. Plastic boxes are usually easier to remove without having to damage
the walls. This will avoid a patch job later.




Push the fish tape down the wall to the
switch location. Then go drill some holes in the joists between
lights.
Now
go back down and attach two 14/2 cables to the fish tape or have a
helper do
this. Pull them up to the attic and run each one to the first light
on
each
row being sure to pull them through the joists. You will also need to
staple them along the joists.

Do I really need to drill through the joists? I have attic access and
the attic is not finished. Would it be ok/smart to just allow the
cables to lay loose across the joists or maybe stapled over the tops
of the joists?

For an accessible attic space the wire must be protected. Sometimes
people
put cartons for storage on top of the joists. Sometimes they lay sheets
of
plywood down. I have found attics that way with plywood sitting on top of
wires. The alternative to drilling the joists is to install running
boards
such as a 2" x 4" across the joists and staple the cables to the side of
them.


If this project goes well, I will be installing these same lights in
my kitchen. No access at all. If I should or have to drill through the
joists for the bedroom or kitchen, where on the joist should I drill?
I assume in the middle and no more than a 1 1/4" hole?

As close to the middle as possible, but you really only need to keep the
cable a minimum of 1 1/4" from the face of the joist.


Go the switch box location and bring the old and new wires into the
four
gang box. The whites for the new lights go to the existing neutral.
The
blacks will be the switch leg. You will need to make some pigtails
off
of
the existing hot wire to feed the new single pole switches or dimmers.

Can I pigtail all four (I think my count is correct) of the black
wires to/from the one black/hot wire with one wire nut or is there a
better best practice I should use?


You can do four pigtails from the one. Just use a proper size wire
connector approved for five #14's.



If you wanted to control these lights from multiple locations you
would
need
to run one 14/3 cable for each switch to another switch location. The
red
and white would be the travelers. The black at the remote location
would go
on the black screw of the 3-way switch. The black of the 14/3 at the
four
gang box would get connected to the hot wire and the black from the
14/2
switch leg would go to the black screw on the 3-way switch or dimmer.

I was not going to do this. The distance is not far but I was thinking
of finding a remote to control/dim the lights with.


I don't have any suggestions for a remote unless you went with an X-10
type
system. I think there are remote controls for use with certain modules.
The wiring shouldn't be too much different. Instead of a switch you
install
a module. It may however require a neutral conductor. Look up smart
homes.





There are a lot of wiring diagrams on various web sites already. I
don't
know exactly where they are, but perhaps another person will post
those
links.

If anyone can find these it would be great. I have not found diagrams
that went beyond a switch and an outlet.

I hope this helps.

John Grabowskihttp://www.mrelectrician.tv

You were amazingly clear John with such a complicated question! Well
done sir!


Thank you and you're welcome.



Also, if anyone else is reading this just know that I am calling my
township today to see if I need a permit, etc for this. My condo
association has no rules for the inside unless it is a structural
alteration issue like removing, changing walls, closets, etc. MAKE IT
LEGAL and INSURABLE my friends!!!! I have been a licensed and full
time REALTOR real estate agent in southern NJ for years now and I
cannot begin to tell you the complicated and EXPENSIVE legal problems
that arise from DIYers that don't get permits!!!


Excellent advice. I have seen that situation arise several times. The
best
ones are from work that was done two or three owners ago.