Hi there

I live in a 33 yr old, brick, 4br end-unit townhouse in Reston,
Virginia (outside DC). In my opinion, this is a little bit of overkill
in the bedroom department for a townhouse anyway. Coinciding with that
thought is that my bathrooms are all pretty small. TH has two floors
above ground, unfinished basement (to stay that way), gable roof with
dead attic space. All the work discussed here would be on the second
floor.

I am contemplating turning the smallest bedroom into a master bath
including nice tile, large jetted tub, etc, and joining it to the
master bedroom via new door. The ideal plan is to also extend the
height of this bathroom up through the wasted space of the attic to the
gable roof and put in skylights.

I have done some exploratory work (cutting drywall/subflooring) and I
am sure the plumbing won't be a problem - plenty of space.

Target room is along the exterior wall of the house, between two load
bearing walls that run perpendicular from the exterior wall. I am
planning on making the adjacent 2x4 load bearing walls into 2x6 and
doubling the number of joists where the jetted tub will reside
(currently 16" OC, 12" in depth). The load bearing walls are supported
by I-beams in the basement - about W8 or so - maybe 4" wide...

I know these questions are regional but from your own experience (site
location please):

What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks
Bob

check with a real estate pro, you MAY devalue your home. Often the more
bedrooms the higher the value.

Before you spend lots of money its something to consider

"Bob" wrote in message
I know these questions are regional but from your own experience (site
location please):

What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

You don't need any permits, just get started.

Rather than get misinformation from people around the world, why not just
call the local building official's office? They can tell you exactly what
you need.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
I know these questions are regional but from your own experience (site
location please):

What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

You don't need any permits, just get started.

Rather than get misinformation from people around the world, why not just
call the local building official's office? They can tell you exactly what
you need.


Don't get permits, just get started? Most places in the good old USA
you need a building permit when you;re gonna rip out walls and turn a
bedroom into a bathroom. It clearly involves new electric work,
plumbing, etc. I do agree he should just call the local building
inspector.

As for devaluing the house, if you have a 4 bedroom house with small
baths, going to 3 bedrooms with a large and luxurious master bath is
virtually certain to add considerable value to the house, possibly even
beyond what it costs. Most prospective buyers would rather have a
luxurious master suite than an extra bedroom beyond 3.

thanks for the advice.

I agree with the assessment on the value of the house either staying
the same or going up. Most people that I would end up selling to would
be a couple with a baby or two - no need for 4 brs.

Plus, I personally would really like it a lot.

I will contact permitting / inspections department at my county.

Bob

"Bob" writes:

What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.

In my last municipality, any work like that needed a licensed
Architect's signature signing off on the drawings.

My neighbors drew all their own plans and consulted with an architect
to make sure they were doing reasonable/safe things, adn the architect
signed off on it. They saved a bunch of money doing all the
busiwork/drawing themselves and getting the architect to sign off
after reviewing their plans for sanity and safety.

The villages absolutely required a permit for this work, and needed
signed off drawings as a bare minimum.

As you know, your mileage may vary in your locality, but I would say
that it's extremely likely you'll need to involve an architect or
structural engineer somewhere along the way, but that doing your own
plan and drawings will still save you $'s.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:
"Bob" writes:
What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.

In my last municipality, any work like that needed a licensed
Architect's signature signing off on the drawings.

My neighbors drew all their own plans and consulted with an architect
to make sure they were doing reasonable/safe things, adn the architect
signed off on it.

In most states in the US, this is against the law. The drawings must be
prepared under the *direct supervision* of the design professional.
Typically this means someone in their employ, in the same office.

The architect/engineer doing this stands to be fined and lose his/her
license. The homeowner could be left with a bunch of expensive toilet
paper, and would then have to get a real architect to redo all of the
plans at additional cost.

So.... Please check your local codes before hiring a design professional.

CptDondo wrote:
Todd H. wrote:
"Bob" writes:
What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.

In my last municipality, any work like that needed a licensed
Architect's signature signing off on the drawings.

My neighbors drew all their own plans and consulted with an architect
to make sure they were doing reasonable/safe things, adn the architect
signed off on it.

In most states in the US, this is against the law. The drawings must be
prepared under the *direct supervision* of the design professional.
Typically this means someone in their employ, in the same office.

The architect/engineer doing this stands to be fined and lose his/her
license. The homeowner could be left with a bunch of expensive toilet
paper, and would then have to get a real architect to redo all of the
plans at additional cost.

So.... Please check your local codes before hiring a design professional.

That is something I've never heard before. I believe that you can
indeed draw up plans and put them in front of an engineer/architect. A
PE or RA are trusted professionals and can make their own
determinations on whether somethings is well designed or not without
having overseen the actual design. Please site your references because
I am interested to know (in whichever state(s) you speak of).

Bob wrote:
CptDondo wrote:
Todd H. wrote:
"Bob" writes:
What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.
In my last municipality, any work like that needed a licensed
Architect's signature signing off on the drawings.

My neighbors drew all their own plans and consulted with an architect
to make sure they were doing reasonable/safe things, adn the architect
signed off on it.
In most states in the US, this is against the law. The drawings must be
prepared under the *direct supervision* of the design professional.
Typically this means someone in their employ, in the same office.

The architect/engineer doing this stands to be fined and lose his/her
license. The homeowner could be left with a bunch of expensive toilet
paper, and would then have to get a real architect to redo all of the
plans at additional cost.

So.... Please check your local codes before hiring a design professional.

That is something I've never heard before. I believe that you can
indeed draw up plans and put them in front of an engineer/architect. A
PE or RA are trusted professionals and can make their own
determinations on whether somethings is well designed or not without
having overseen the actual design. Please site your references because
I am interested to know (in whichever state(s) you speak of).


I am licensed in Oregon, SC, GA, and Texas.... So my statement is based
on the licensing process itself, and the state regulations.

See for example http://landru.leg.state.or.us/ors/672.html and read
section 672.020 "Practice of engineering without registration
prohibited; seal required." Then look up the definition of "supervision
and control" in section 672.002 - "Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 72.325"

It's a fairly common practice, but illegal.

--Yan

In article , says...
"Bob" writes:

What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
Can I submit plans of my own without the help of a Architect/PE?
My background is AS in Architecture (can draw clear plans) and a BS in
Mechanical Engineering but I am neither RA nor a PE.

Any experience/advice would greatly be appreciated.

In my last municipality, any work like that needed a licensed
Architect's signature signing off on the drawings.

My neighbors drew all their own plans and consulted with an architect
to make sure they were doing reasonable/safe things, adn the architect
signed off on it. They saved a bunch of money doing all the
busiwork/drawing themselves and getting the architect to sign off
after reviewing their plans for sanity and safety.

The villages absolutely required a permit for this work, and needed
signed off drawings as a bare minimum.

As you know, your mileage may vary in your locality, but I would say
that it's extremely likely you'll need to involve an architect or
structural engineer somewhere along the way, but that doing your own
plan and drawings will still save you $'s.

I added a garage onto my house in New York. I made the drawings
myself. As long as the construction costs didn't exceed $10K I
didn't even need an architect's sign off. The inspector just told
me what he wanted to see (*way* more than code required).

The bottom line is that every jurisdiction is different.

--
Keith

I see you are spot on in what you were saying.
Thanks for that.

I just called over to Fairfax County in Virginia and spoke with the
Inspections department. They said I could draw up and before and after
plan and submit it. They did not promise that I didn't need an
engineer but I guess that determination will be made after I submit my
plans. It sounds like I won't but time will tell. Wish I got my PE
before I switched to software development.

They said I need Building, Electrical, Plumbing, and possibly HVAC
permits depending on what I am doing. All makes sense - my confusion
was cleared up a little because their permits all look like for new
construction but they are the same forms for renovations.

Thanks for the input.

Bob

Bob wrote:
I see you are spot on in what you were saying.
Thanks for that.

I just called over to Fairfax County in Virginia and spoke with the
Inspections department. They said I could draw up and before and after
plan and submit it. They did not promise that I didn't need an
engineer but I guess that determination will be made after I submit my
plans. It sounds like I won't but time will tell. Wish I got my PE
before I switched to software development.

:-)

Well, I'm a licensed civil doing embedded programming.... Go figure.


They said I need Building, Electrical, Plumbing, and possibly HVAC
permits depending on what I am doing. All makes sense - my confusion
was cleared up a little because their permits all look like for new
construction but they are the same forms for renovations.

Usually there is a threshold of some sort - % of house value, or a fixed
dollar amount, or % of square footage, beyond which you need to involve
licensed professionals. In some jurisdictions you don't need a design
professional as long as everything is done per code, as determined by
the building codes people. Sometimes you can purchase pre-engineered
products (beams, trusses, etc) that come with a seal. The building
codes people can usually tell you all that.

So it helps to be friendly with the the building codes enforcement
inspectors, and never, ever give them grief. :-)

--Yan

Bob wrote:
I live in a 33 yr old, brick, 4br end-unit townhouse in Reston,
....
I am contemplating turning the smallest bedroom into a master bath
....

I have done some exploratory work (cutting drywall/subflooring) and I
am sure the plumbing won't be a problem - plenty of space.

Only possible thing might be getting to exterior drains? One thing to
consider would be whether could be feasible to make this one line up
over the downstairs bath or kitchen area to consolidate the plumbing.

....
What permits are typically needed in this type of renovation?
....

Most other suggestions (other than the "go ahead" one ) were pretty
solid. The one thing I didn't see mentioned is that since it is a
townhouse unit, not free-standing, you may have other covenants that
apply and required permissions/approvals within the development. If
not, you're fortunate. But definitely need to be sure because
typically if they exist, such restrictions are the most stringent and
most onerous in penalties if don't abide (and get caught).

Bob wrote:
They said I need Building, Electrical, Plumbing, and possibly HVAC
permits depending on what I am doing. All makes sense - my confusion
was cleared up a little because their permits all look like for new
construction but they are the same forms for renovations.

But if you're doing the work inside - and possibly under the cover of
darkness - who's to know?

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:27:17 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Bob wrote:
They said I need Building, Electrical, Plumbing, and possibly HVAC
permits depending on what I am doing. All makes sense - my confusion
was cleared up a little because their permits all look like for new
construction but they are the same forms for renovations.

But if you're doing the work inside - and possibly under the cover of
darkness - who's to know?

The poster should use some lights, or he may connect the wiring to the
water pipes and the water lines to the breaker box.

On 27 Dec 2006 12:07:36 -0800, "dpb" wrote:


Most other suggestions (other than the "go ahead" one ) were pretty
solid. The one thing I didn't see mentioned is that since it is a
townhouse unit, not free-standing, you may have other covenants that
apply and required permissions/approvals within the development. If
not, you're fortunate.

Fortunate until the neighbor wants to do something stupid, and he
won't need permission either.

Although I wouldnt' say that about my place where the HOA president
can't be trusted.

But definitely need to be sure because
typically if they exist, such restrictions are the most stringent and
most onerous in penalties if don't abide (and get caught).

Before I got here someone had some sort of pen in his backyard, made
with chicken wire (though no chickens). When he wouldn't remove it, a
bunch of neighbors removed it for him. Apparently they had the HOA
rules on their side.

(I think they once mowed my lawn when I hadn't for months. I expected
a high-end bill, but to be honest, I'm not sure I ever got a bill at
all. Maybe someone was being nice to me, and I don't even know who.)

But it has other advantages. If someone doesn't repair their property
within a reasonable time, like after a fire, the HOA can repair it and
bill the homeowner and if he doesn't pay, foreclose on the lien and
sell the house. It's designed to prevent the creation of slums, or
slum-like spots in the middle of nice n'hoods. One bad house can
really drive down values.

Think about this no permit suggestions.....

saves bucks on property tax, in allegheny county THATS a big issue, 3
grand tax per year on each $100,000...

But come resale time that lack of documentation may cause all sorts of
grief....

hey tax roles say 4 bedrooms.......

you have one less bedroom and a extra bath. does the bath meet codes?
with drywall up its hard to know about work quality.......

get a permit!

wrote in message

Don't get permits, just get started? Most places in the good old USA
you need a building permit when you;re gonna rip out walls and turn a
bedroom into a bathroom. It clearly involves new electric work,
plumbing, etc. I do agree he should just call the local building
inspector.


He has my permission and I don't think anything more than that is needed.
After all, he did ask on a newsgroup that is read world wide so why would he
not trust the answers that we give him to local questions ?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message

Don't get permits, just get started? Most places in the good old USA
you need a building permit when you;re gonna rip out walls and turn a
bedroom into a bathroom. It clearly involves new electric work,
plumbing, etc. I do agree he should just call the local building
inspector.


He has my permission and I don't think anything more than that is needed.
After all, he did ask on a newsgroup that is read world wide so why would he
not trust the answers that we give him to local questions ?


I see your point

wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
....
As for devaluing the house, if you have a 4 bedroom house with small
baths, going to 3 bedrooms with a large and luxurious master bath is
virtually certain to add considerable value to the house, possibly even
beyond what it costs. Most prospective buyers would rather have a
luxurious master suite than an extra bedroom beyond 3.

I agree it is unlikely to devalue the property.

I'd only note that it is, as a general rule, unwise to have either the
most- or least-expensive property in a neighborhood. Given OP has a
condo unit, it is unlikely he would be able to get much of a premium
above what other units in the unit are going for, irregardless of the
actual modifications. Folks just aren't going to pay far beyond the
going price so if OP has any ideas of wanting to sell this in the
foreseeable future, it would be wise to not invest excessively as
probably wouldn't get more than the expense back out. If, otoh, as
sounds like, does work himself and does it well, probably will be able
to get something of a premium and come out ok....just something to
consider.

On 28 Dec 2006 05:34:31 -0800, "
wrote:

Think about this no permit suggestions.....

saves bucks on property tax, in allegheny county THATS a big issue, 3
grand tax per year on each $100,000...

But come resale time that lack of documentation may cause all sorts of
grief....

hey tax roles say 4 bedrooms.......

you have one less bedroom and a extra bath. does the bath meet codes?
with drywall up its hard to know about work quality.......

Use clear plastic drywall. You know, like those emac computers with
the see through case. And I've seen telephones like that.

Useful also for finding leaks and tracking mice.

I bought a color tv chassis once and wa going to build a see though
case for that, but didn't get around to it.

get a permit!