wrote in message
oups.com...

And that's why we continue to get ripped off by the politicians in this
state. Cause guys like you like to hand over money to the politicians
and then have them decide when and if to give it back to you. . . . ,

I don't really want them to give it back to me because I am not ready to
install a solar system. But, I am willing to contribute toward a fund that
will help subsidize you or someone else who is willing to invest their own
money in a solar system. I think of it as seed money or as an incentive to
help get more solar systems up and running. I don't want to support someone
buying a luxury Mercedes even if it gets high mileage because there is new
real new technology being brought online by doing that. But I would support
partially subsidizing you or others in purchasing a new-technology hybrid
vehicle. My thinking is that until these new environmentally friendly
technologies actually start being used, the cost of purchasing them will
remain high. But if they come into more common use, the costs will come
down and more and more people will then opt for those systems.

Of course, I know we don't agree on this.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
It doesn't matter whether Big Oil gets into solar cells or whether a law
is
passed in D.C. or whether the world is run by those in Patik-print
dresses.
There is no way sufficient solar energy can be captured or stored to make
a
positive difference in our energy needs. It is a physical impossibility.

Nonsense.

Bob

wrote in message
You mean no problems other than solar is not even close to economically
feasible? If it were that simple, you think utilities would still be
using nukes, oil, gas and coal instead?

There is a lot of research around the world on developing
better, cheaper solar cells. Part of the motivation for this
research is the demand. Increasing the demand helps. It
is in our best interest to move this process along.

More efficient cells, cheaper cells, flexible cells, organic
cells, etc. It is all being developed.

Bob

wrote in message
...
Than you have to keep the panels clean so they can use what sunlight
falls upon them. Many homeowners don't like washing windows so I doubt
you will see many on there roofs washing the solar panels.
In A Popular Science I read recently there was A wind generator for
the home. It cost around 20K installed as I remember. It seems A more
viable alternative than solar panels in the generation of electricity
and at least you don't have to clean it!

There are good places for solar. And good places for wind. It depends
on the local climate.

Bob

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:47:55 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:


wrote in message
You mean no problems other than solar is not even close to economically
feasible? If it were that simple, you think utilities would still be
using nukes, oil, gas and coal instead?

There is a lot of research around the world on developing
better, cheaper solar cells. Part of the motivation for this
research is the demand. Increasing the demand helps. It
is in our best interest to move this process along.

More efficient cells, cheaper cells, flexible cells, organic
cells, etc. It is all being developed.


Although it's likely to remain the case for quite some
time that you're better off using solar energy without
converting it to electricity first, whenever you can
manage it.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:47:55 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:


wrote in message
You mean no problems other than solar is not even close to economically
feasible? If it were that simple, you think utilities would still be
using nukes, oil, gas and coal instead?

There is a lot of research around the world on developing
better, cheaper solar cells. Part of the motivation for this
research is the demand. Increasing the demand helps. It
is in our best interest to move this process along.

More efficient cells, cheaper cells, flexible cells, organic
cells, etc. It is all being developed.


Although it's likely to remain the case for quite some
time that you're better off using solar energy without
converting it to electricity first, whenever you can
manage it.

Amen to the last observation there- electricity is a very luxurious form of
energy, convenient to move and easy to use. But there are work-arounds for a
lot of things a house uses energy for. Trivial example- use a
passive-solar-heated tank as a preheater for the water heater. Takes a lot
less juice to raise water from lukewarm to hot, than it does wellhead temp,
to hot. Same water tank can also be a heat mass in the sunroom on the sunny
side of the house, that you use a small fan to route warm air to the inside
in winter, or set up a convection current in summer to suck cool air through
the house at night. Yeah, its a PITA running around messing with valves and
windowshades, but the energy is free once you amortize the hardware.

aem sends...

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
A strip of solar panels 1 meter wide encircling the equator would provide
about 6 million KW.

That wouldn't power Chicago, much less the earth.

--
"A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and
woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle."
-- George William Curtis

HeyBub wrote:
Assuming 50% conversion efficiency, it would take a solar collector the size
of the Los Angeles basin (about 1200 sq miles) to provide electricity just
for California. Then, too, there is the initial cost and on-going
maintenance. Plus Angelinos would be living in the dark.

They could use all that electricity to power the lights they put under
the solar-cell canopy to replace the sunlight.

Oh, hell, I just gave some politician an idea.

--
"A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and
woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle."
-- George William Curtis

According to Bob F :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Bob F :

Some friends of mine claim they basically pay nothing for
their electricity. This is in NW Washington State. I believe
they said they paid about $16,000 for their system. They
are careful about their usage it seemed.

More than careful methinks. Going off-grid with solar electric
means that they have to be _extremely_ miserly with electric
power. Things like 12V lighting systems, propane powered fridges,
etc.

You can't go off grid if you're into standard consumer appliances.

They are not off-grid. They do have two meters, and net billing.

My question would then be, if they're actually living in this
place full time, do they get a _real_ reduction in monthly electrical
bills once you factor in maintenance? Completely ignoring amortization
of the PV cells, the amount of power you can feed back from even
a large investment in PV is quite small.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Bob F :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Bob F :

Some friends of mine claim they basically pay nothing for
their electricity. This is in NW Washington State. I believe
they said they paid about $16,000 for their system. They
are careful about their usage it seemed.

More than careful methinks. Going off-grid with solar electric
means that they have to be _extremely_ miserly with electric
power. Things like 12V lighting systems, propane powered fridges,
etc.

You can't go off grid if you're into standard consumer appliances.

They are not off-grid. They do have two meters, and net billing.

My question would then be, if they're actually living in this
place full time, do they get a _real_ reduction in monthly electrical
bills once you factor in maintenance? Completely ignoring amortization
of the PV cells, the amount of power you can feed back from even
a large investment in PV is quite small.

They told me that over the course of a year, their production about
equals their usage, so they pay nothing for the electricity. I'm sure
there is a base charge, but didn't ask about that.

Bob

According to Bob F :

They told me that over the course of a year, their production about
equals their usage, so they pay nothing for the electricity. I'm sure
there is a base charge, but didn't ask about that.

That's quite remarkable. Do you have any idea of what the output
of the thing was?
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Bob F :

They told me that over the course of a year, their production about
equals their usage, so they pay nothing for the electricity. I'm sure
there is a base charge, but didn't ask about that.

That's quite remarkable. Do you have any idea of what the output
of the thing was?

No idea. The panel area was maybe 10 x 10 feet if I remember correctly.
And they are probably very conservative in their use.

Bob