OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without separate
ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da

if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I know
about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the basics.
I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I think?) breakers
in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking at the assortment
of breakers available at Home Despot it appears that GE, Square-D
Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty much the same.
However, none of them specifically said that they were *LISTED* for use
in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do HACR and CTL mean?
I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a cursory Google
search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple "tandem" 15A and
20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height slot free in case I
wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in the
previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them online?
Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two independent
hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff was even more
limited.

thanks,

nate


---
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without separate
ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da


if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I know
about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the basics.
I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I think?) breakers
in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking at the assortment
of breakers available at Home Despot it appears that GE, Square-D
Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty much the same.
However, none of them specifically said that they were *LISTED* for use
in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do HACR and CTL mean?
I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a cursory Google
search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple "tandem" 15A and
20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height slot free in case I
wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in the
previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them online?
Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two independent
hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff was even more
limited.

thanks,

nate

Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to use a
GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit? One of the circuits that is
still ungrounded in this house serves all the bedrooms, is why I'm asking.

thanks,

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Sometime breakers from different suppliers will work you dont need to
try to install a Square D Breaker in Siemens panel.
Stab in or bolt_in.
Siemens panel Siemens breakers.
The ul listing has them operating as a unit.
HACR
Heating, Air conditing, refridgeration.





On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:53:56 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without separate
ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da

if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I know
about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the basics.
I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I think?) breakers
in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking at the assortment
of breakers available at Home Despot it appears that GE, Square-D
Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty much the same.
However, none of them specifically said that they were *LISTED* for use
in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do HACR and CTL mean?
I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a cursory Google
search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple "tandem" 15A and
20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height slot free in case I
wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in the
previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them online?
Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two independent
hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff was even more
limited.

thanks,

nate


---
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without
separate ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da


if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I
know about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the
basics. I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I think?)
breakers in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking at the
assortment of breakers available at Home Despot it appears that GE,
Square-D Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty much the
same. However, none of them specifically said that they were *LISTED*
for use in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do HACR and
CTL mean? I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a cursory
Google search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple "tandem"
15A and 20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height slot free in
case I wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in
the previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them online?
Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two independent
hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff was even more
limited.

thanks,

nate


Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to use a
GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit? One of the circuits that is
still ungrounded in this house serves all the bedrooms, is why I'm asking.

thanks,

nate

Hi,
If you're not in real hurry, first take a look at one of the breaker in
the panel, note the model no. type, etc. And go to a on-lin breaker
supllier, order exactly what you need. You can get exact sme kind or
equivalent substitute.

Tony Hwang wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without
separate ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da


if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I
know about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the
basics. I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I
think?) breakers in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking
at the assortment of breakers available at Home Despot it appears
that GE, Square-D Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty
much the same. However, none of them specifically said that they were
*LISTED* for use in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do
HACR and CTL mean? I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a
cursory Google search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple
"tandem" 15A and 20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height
slot free in case I wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in
the previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them
online? Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two
independent hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff
was even more limited.

thanks,

nate



Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to use
a GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit? One of the circuits that
is still ungrounded in this house serves all the bedrooms, is why I'm
asking.

thanks,

nate

Hi,
If you're not in real hurry, first take a look at one of the breaker in
the panel, note the model no. type, etc. And go to a on-lin breaker
supllier, order exactly what you need. You can get exact sme kind or
equivalent substitute.

That's the thing, I AM in a hurry, because I'd like to finish up the
electrical work so I can start unpacking/decorating. I also have looked
for and can't find the breakers in the panel. Also am not having much
luck finding out what would be an "equivalent substitute" hence my post.
The odd thing is the panel looks near new so what gives?

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without
separate ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da


if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I
know about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the
basics. I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I
think?) breakers in it. They appear to be standard breakers;
looking at the assortment of breakers available at Home Despot it
appears that GE, Square-D Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are
all pretty much the same. However, none of them specifically said
that they were *LISTED* for use in a Siemens panel. So what do I
do? Also, what do HACR and CTL mean? I'm not entirely sure I
understand, even after a cursory Google search. In an ideal world,
I'd like to use a couple "tandem" 15A and 20A breakers if I could,
to leave a double height slot free in case I wanted to add a 240V
appliance in the future.

Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in
the previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them
online? Sadly, Home Despot seems to be my only choice, I hit two
independent hardware store and there selection of electrical stuff
was even more limited.

thanks,

nate




Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to
use a GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit? One of the circuits
that is still ungrounded in this house serves all the bedrooms, is
why I'm asking.

thanks,

nate

Hi,
If you're not in real hurry, first take a look at one of the breaker
in the panel, note the model no. type, etc. And go to a on-lin breaker
supllier, order exactly what you need. You can get exact sme kind or
equivalent substitute.


That's the thing, I AM in a hurry, because I'd like to finish up the
electrical work so I can start unpacking/decorating. I also have looked
for and can't find the breakers in the panel. Also am not having much
luck finding out what would be an "equivalent substitute" hence my post.
The odd thing is the panel looks near new so what gives?

nate


Just to clarify, I'm back home without buying anything. The sticker on
the panel specifies the use of "I-T-E type QP, QT, QPF, QPH, QPHF, or
HQP breakers" none of which appear to be currently available, and info.
on the web seems to be near nonexistent. Short of taking a breaker out
and carrying it to the store with me to assure that a new one would
match perfectly, any ideas? The other thing I'm concerned about is if
an inspector saw, say, a GE breaker which appears like it would fit but
may or may not be listed for the panel. I can't seem to find any useful
info. on any manufacturer's web site as to whose panels their breakers
are listed for, or any info. on the Siemens web site as to whether
there's a currently available replacement for the type "QP" breakers
that I currently have.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:39:07 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Just to clarify, I'm back home without buying anything. The sticker on
the panel specifies the use of "I-T-E type QP, QT, QPF, QPH, QPHF, or
HQP breakers" none of which appear to be currently available, and info.
on the web seems to be near nonexistent. Short of taking a breaker out
and carrying it to the store with me to assure that a new one would
match perfectly, any ideas? The other thing I'm concerned about is if
an inspector saw, say, a GE breaker which appears like it would fit but
may or may not be listed for the panel. I can't seem to find any useful
info. on any manufacturer's web site as to whose panels their breakers
are listed for, or any info. on the Siemens web site as to whether
there's a currently available replacement for the type "QP" breakers
that I currently have.

nate

I'm 99.9% sure that Cutler Hammer "BR" can be used in place of Siemens type
"QP". This particular style of breaker is sometimes called
"interchangeable" and it by far the most common type used in residences.

If your breaker panel is somewhat new, it must have been purchased
somewhere, by someone. Chances are, there is a shop somewhere nearby
that carries that exact panel, or used to within a few years ago. Just
start calling -- first try all the electrical retail supply stores and
big-box stores. Then try the contractor-type supply stores. Just keep
phoning and asking around till you find the place it was purchased at.
They ought to have the breakers, or (if not home depot or lowes) be
able to tell you what substitute to use, since they likely have
hundreds of customers and contractors coming to them for replacement
breakers.

Did this myself a while ago, until I found the exact store where nearly
all the electrical and plumbing supplies for our house were purchased.
I can get exact replacements for nearly everything, and those things
that are no longer carried or made I can get a very precise
recommendation for a compatible model.

-Kevin

Just to clarify, I'm back home without buying anything. The sticker
on
the panel specifies the use of "I-T-E type QP, QT, QPF, QPH, QPHF, or
HQP breakers" none of which appear to be currently available

Siemans (formerly ITE) QP breakers are available EVERYWHERE including my
local Home Depot.
I can't believe yours doesn't carry the full line. They are a current, main
stream brand that is used everywhere...including my own home built 3 years
ago!


Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to use
a
GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit?

AFCIs are now required by the NEC in all new construction or remodels for
all bedroom outlets and switches. They protect against fire cause d by
arcing. So is it worth it? Depends on how much one values the marginally
increase in safety and conforming the the NEC. And...yes you can add a GFCI
outlet to an AFCI branch circuit.



" Also, I was unable to find any of the "Madison straps" referenced in the
previous thread; does anyone know where I could order them online? Sadly,
Home Despot seems to be my only choice,

Ask for "battleships" (they kinda resemble a battleship). Madison hangers
are the correct term but nobody I work with knows them by their real name.


Hope this helps Brad

turn off main breaker, turn off easy to access breaker and remove wire
then breaker they come out easy mark wire so you know where it came
from.

take sample breaker to store.

if your doing electrical work breaker removal is a new part of your
life and the easiest way to get a exact replacement.

Nate Nagel wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

OK... went shopping today for new circuit breakers. I'm now more
confused than ever. I'm attempting to add some additional branch
circuits to my house (see previous thread "house wired without
separate ground - problem?" he

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...1f663 31684da


if you're just joining the saga) anyway, I am learning how little I
know about electrical stuff despite feeling fairly familiar with the
basics. I have an ITE/Siemens load center with ITE type QP (I think?)
breakers in it. They appear to be standard breakers; looking at the
assortment of breakers available at Home Despot it appears that GE,
Square-D Homeline, and Cutler-Hammer breakers are all pretty much the
same. However, none of them specifically said that they were *LISTED*
for use in a Siemens panel. So what do I do? Also, what do HACR and
CTL mean? I'm not entirely sure I understand, even after a cursory
Google search. In an ideal world, I'd like to use a couple "tandem"
15A and 20A breakers if I could, to leave a double height slot free in
case I wanted to add a 240V appliance in the future.

CTL is circuit limited. A panel has a maximum number of poles it is
tested and rated for. Any recent panel is class CTL, which limits the
positions at which tandem breakers can installed, so the max number of
poles is not exceeded. The breakers that only fit in those positions are
also class CTL. If you want to install tandem breakers this is something
to check. The panel label should have information.

You might also see SWD - rated for routine switching of flourescent lights.



Secondary question: Are the new AFCI's really worth it? and does
anyone make an AFCI breaker for my load center? Is it possible to use a
GFCI outlet on an AFCI-protected circuit? One of the circuits that is
still ungrounded in this house serves all the bedrooms, is why I'm asking.

AFCIs came out of a Consumer Product Safety Commission investigation to
reduce electrical fires. Wiring in buildings over 20 years old are at
higher risk but extension cords and equipment plugged in can also cause
fires. My opinion is that AFCIs are useful, particularly with an older
house like yours.

AFCIs are now required to detect parallel arcs - hot to neutral or hot
to ground. Starting in 2008 they will be required to also detect series
arcs - as in a loose connection. You may or may not want to wait for the
new ones, which as far as I know are not yet on the market, and
certainly not tested by field experience.

[The current draft of the 2008 NEC, which could be revised, requires all
residential 15 & 20A 120V branch circuits to be on AFCIs.]

bud--

wrote:
turn off main breaker, turn off easy to access breaker and remove wire
then breaker they come out easy mark wire so you know where it came
from.

take sample breaker to store.

if your doing electrical work breaker removal is a new part of your
life and the easiest way to get a exact replacement.


I just gave up and hit the 'bay; I hope everything works out OK because
I don't generally like buying possibly used equipment, but I was able to
find a siemens AFCI breaker and two each 15A and 20A tandem breakers for
a total of about $60... I would think there would have to be a good
hardware store around that would a) stock this stuff and b) have staff
knowledgeable enough to answer basic questions but I haven't found it
yet, save for one actually within walking distance of my house, but
whose hours are so limited it's difficult to stop by.

I do find it odd though that mfgrs. web sites have so little info; I'm
used to dealing with cars and many automotive aftermarket suppliers
actually have pretty comprehensive online catalogs so questions can be
abswered quickly and with only a little time researching.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Brad Behm wrote:
Just to clarify, I'm back home without buying anything. The sticker
on
the panel specifies the use of "I-T-E type QP, QT, QPF, QPH, QPHF, or
HQP breakers" none of which appear to be currently available

Siemans (formerly ITE) QP breakers are available EVERYWHERE including my
local Home Depot.
I can't believe yours doesn't carry the full line. They are a current, main
stream brand that is used everywhere...including my own home built 3 years
ago!



I asked at the Home Despot, the guy had somewhat of a clue and said that
he *thought* I could use the Cutler-Hammer breakers, but that wasn't
good enough for me to buy... I asked about ITE/Siemens and he said that
they used to carry Siemens, but that they were phased out, not sure if
he meant that HD no longer carried them or that Siemens got out of the
residential breaker business.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:

turn off main breaker, turn off easy to access breaker and remove wire
then breaker they come out easy mark wire so you know where it came
from.

take sample breaker to store.

if your doing electrical work breaker removal is a new part of your
life and the easiest way to get a exact replacement.


I just gave up and hit the 'bay; I hope everything works out OK because
I don't generally like buying possibly used equipment, but I was able to
find a siemens AFCI breaker and two each 15A and 20A tandem breakers for
a total of about $60... I would think there would have to be a good
hardware store around that would a) stock this stuff and b) have staff
knowledgeable enough to answer basic questions but I haven't found it
yet, save for one actually within walking distance of my house, but
whose hours are so limited it's difficult to stop by.

I do find it odd though that mfgrs. web sites have so little info; I'm
used to dealing with cars and many automotive aftermarket suppliers
actually have pretty comprehensive online catalogs so questions can be
abswered quickly and with only a little time researching.

nate


One last question: There's a note on the sticker of the breaker panel
that says something like "maximum breaker rating 110A per bus stab" am I
correct in assuming that a "bus stab" is one "finger" of the bus bar and
that all that means is that if I have two full height breakers next to
each other sharing that "finger" that their ratings cannot add up to
more than 110A?

thanks,

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel