I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

You wouldn't be doing this yourself, would you ?

In article , "Joe" wrote:
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels).

Not and meet Code.

I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.

There's already a feeder going from the meter to the main panel. You could
install a new main panel in the workshop, and convert the existing main panel
to a subpanel fed from the new main panel, using the existing feeder.

2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

Why 100A in the workshop? What are you running in there, that you require such
heavy service to the shop?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I agree with Doug Miller, but it would seem to me, that you should already
have a disconnect at the meter. Just replace it with a small 150 amp panel,
then feed the existing panel from it


"Joe" wrote in message
. ..
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can
be wired from the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this
is atypical, but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I agree with Doug Miller, but it would seem to me, that you should already
have a disconnect at the meter.

Depends on how old the installation is -- the NEC didn't always require the
disconnect to be at the point where the service entered the building. If the
OP's house is old enough, the installation could well have met Code at the
time.

Just replace it with a small 150 amp panel,
then feed the existing panel from it

Yep.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Just replace it with a small 150 amp panel,
then feed the existing panel from it

Yep.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller

a 200 amp main panel is better besides if the original install is old
grounding upgrade is probably necessary...........

Joe wrote:

I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

It is possible in at least some situations to feed more than one service
panel directly off the meter. In this case it's not a main and sub
panel, but two main panels. I've not looked for the particular code
sections covering this, but I've seen it frequently with 400A services
feeding two 200A main panels in large houses or small commercial
settings.

In you case since your current setup seems to be somewhat out of code
with the long seemingly unprotected feeder from the meter to your main
panel (is there a separate disconnect near the meter?), I'd simply
install a new 200A main panel for the shop by the meter which would
become your main panel and reconnect your current main as a sub panel
off the mew main.

You have a slight issue with the fact that 125A is the maximum sub panel
feed allowed, but depending on what's in the existing 150A main panel it
may not be an issue. Worst case you can relocate a few circuits to the
new panel.

Pete C.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Joe"
wrote:
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired
from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels).

Not and meet Code.

I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is
in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.

There's already a feeder going from the meter to the main panel. You could
install a new main panel in the workshop, and convert the existing main
panel
to a subpanel fed from the new main panel, using the existing feeder.

Thanks for your response Doug and thanks for helping me to think outside of
the box. This sounds like the most viable alternative.

2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

Why 100A in the workshop? What are you running in there, that you require
such
heavy service to the shop?

My compressor draws 20 amps, my welder 30, and I'd like to install a
wall-unit AC/heater, which I'm guessing will be 20-30 amps. It is
conceivable that they might all run at once on occasion. Or maybe 100 amps
is overkill--I'd just rather have too much than too little.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
I agree with Doug Miller, but it would seem to me, that you should already
have a disconnect at the meter.

Depends on how old the installation is -- the NEC didn't always require
the
disconnect to be at the point where the service entered the building. If
the
OP's house is old enough, the installation could well have met Code at the
time.

There is a disconnect at the meter (1993 construction).

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:

I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired
from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is
in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

It is possible in at least some situations to feed more than one service
panel directly off the meter. In this case it's not a main and sub
panel, but two main panels. I've not looked for the particular code
sections covering this, but I've seen it frequently with 400A services
feeding two 200A main panels in large houses or small commercial
settings.

In you case since your current setup seems to be somewhat out of code
with the long seemingly unprotected feeder from the meter to your main
panel (is there a separate disconnect near the meter?), I'd simply
install a new 200A main panel for the shop by the meter which would
become your main panel and reconnect your current main as a sub panel
off the mew main.

You have a slight issue with the fact that 125A is the maximum sub panel
feed allowed, but depending on what's in the existing 150A main panel it
may not be an issue. Worst case you can relocate a few circuits to the
new panel.

Pete C.

Thanks for your reply Pete.

There is a disconnect at the meter (1993 construction).

The 125A limit is a bit of a concern...this is a 3000 sq ft house and 150A
service seemed to me to be kind of lean to start with (though I don't
pretend to know anything about load calculations). I suspect we would have
to move some circuits.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:27:21 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It is possible in at least some situations to feed more than one service
panel directly off the meter. In this case it's not a main and sub
panel, but two main panels. I've not looked for the particular code
sections covering this, but I've seen it frequently with 400A services


You can do this but the disconects must be "grouped" (next to each
other) and there has to be 6 or less disconnect devices. All equipment
connected to the service conductors needs to be suitable as service
equipment.

Thanks for your reply.

If anyone is interested, this appears to be covered under NEC 230.71 (though
I don't have a copy and am basing that off of citations on the web).

The total capacity of all paralleled panels cannot exceed the capacity of
the meter base, which in my case is 200A. This would allow a maximum of 50A
for a parallel box (i.e., looks like I'd need a new meter base to go this
route).

Joe wrote:
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.



Unless your situation is very unusual there is some sort of
disconnecting means much closer to the meter. You need to locate that
disconnect and describe it to us in order for us to provide competent
advise. The US NEC allows up to six separate switches, breakers, or
fused pull outs to be used to disconnect power to a single building. If
there is a disconnect in the meter pan that is commonly called a meter
mains assembly. Unless the meter mains assembly has provision for
adding an additional breaker; and many do; you will need a new metering
arrangement. If there is a separate service disconnecting means then
you will have to mount the additional disconnect right next to it to
satisfy any electrical inspector who is worthy of that title. I imagine
if the disconnect were inside the shop you would have noticed it and
mentioned it. To find out what your situation actually is open any
separate section cover on the meter enclosure, that is not holding the
meter itself in place, you can open without tools, and without breaking
a power company seal, to look for the main breaker. Let me be clear
that if the meter enclosure has only one cover there is no disconnecting
means inside of the enclosure and it is extremely dangerous to open the
cover. If you locate a separate service disconnecting means then
describe it as completely as you can.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Joe wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:27:21 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It is possible in at least some situations to feed more than one service
panel directly off the meter. In this case it's not a main and sub
panel, but two main panels. I've not looked for the particular code
sections covering this, but I've seen it frequently with 400A services

You can do this but the disconects must be "grouped" (next to each
other) and there has to be 6 or less disconnect devices. All equipment
connected to the service conductors needs to be suitable as service
equipment.

Thanks for your reply.

If anyone is interested, this appears to be covered under NEC 230.71 (though
I don't have a copy and am basing that off of citations on the web).

The total capacity of all paralleled panels cannot exceed the capacity of
the meter base, which in my case is 200A. This would allow a maximum of 50A
for a parallel box (i.e., looks like I'd need a new meter base to go this
route).



The only thing that cannot exceed the ampacity of the service entry
conductors, and there associated metering, is the calculated load for
the entire service. The sum of the disconnecting means does not have to
be less than the ampacity of the service conductors in the same way that
the sum of the breakers in a panel does not have to be less then the
Over Current Protective Device protecting that panel. To be more clear
there is no such rule in the US NEC. Although it would be rather
unusual you could have two, two hundred ampere, panels supplied from the
same set of service conductors rated at only 200 amperes as long as the
calculated load is less then the ampacity of the service conductors.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Joe wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:

I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired
from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels). I realize this is atypical,
but I have the following to deal with:
1) My meter is on the wall of my workshop, whereas my breaker box is
in
the basement on an interior wall on the other side of the house. Not only
would it be very difficult to fish but it seems inefficient to run feeder
all the way back to the workshop.
2) My house has 150 amp service and I need 100 in my workshop.

It is possible in at least some situations to feed more than one service
panel directly off the meter. In this case it's not a main and sub
panel, but two main panels. I've not looked for the particular code
sections covering this, but I've seen it frequently with 400A services
feeding two 200A main panels in large houses or small commercial
settings.

In you case since your current setup seems to be somewhat out of code
with the long seemingly unprotected feeder from the meter to your main
panel (is there a separate disconnect near the meter?), I'd simply
install a new 200A main panel for the shop by the meter which would
become your main panel and reconnect your current main as a sub panel
off the mew main.

You have a slight issue with the fact that 125A is the maximum sub panel
feed allowed, but depending on what's in the existing 150A main panel it
may not be an issue. Worst case you can relocate a few circuits to the
new panel.

Pete C.

Thanks for your reply Pete.

There is a disconnect at the meter (1993 construction).

The 125A limit is a bit of a concern...this is a 3000 sq ft house and 150A
service seemed to me to be kind of lean to start with (though I don't
pretend to know anything about load calculations). I suspect we would have
to move some circuits.

Remember that 125A limit would only apply to the sub panel (former main
panel), if necessary you could reroute a few circuits off that panel to
the new 200A main panel. Your net result is still more capacity since
you go from a 150A panel to a 200A panel. This is also likely the
easiest thing to do.

Pete C.

The welder will never pull anywhere near 30. Probably will never reach 20.
They are severely overrated. Just FYI

--
Steve Barker


"Joe" wrote in message
. ..
My compressor draws 20 amps, my welder 30, and I'd like to install a
wall-unit AC/heater, which I'm guessing will be 20-30 amps. It is
conceivable that they might all run at once on occasion. Or maybe 100 amps
is overkill--I'd just rather have too much than too little.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Joe"
wrote:
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired
from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels).

Not and meet Code.

Really?

There can't be TWO main panels? Used to be there could be up to SIX main
panels.

You can have as many main panels as you like, just no more than six service
disconnects, but the question Joe appears to be asking is if it meets code
to tap a second panel directly off the meter



"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. com...
In article , "Joe"
wrote:
I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely
has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it can be wired
from
the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels).

Not and meet Code.

Really?

There can't be TWO main panels? Used to be there could be up to SIX main
panels.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
You can have as many main panels as you like, just no more than six
service
disconnects, but the question Joe appears to be asking is if it meets code
to tap a second panel directly off the meter

OK, we seem to be singing off the same sheet of music.

Seems to me that answer is YES.

John Gilmer wrote:

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
You can have as many main panels as you like, just no more than six
service
disconnects, but the question Joe appears to be asking is if it meets code
to tap a second panel directly off the meter

OK, we seem to be singing off the same sheet of music.

Seems to me that answer is YES.




I agree that a sub panel is just that: a sub panel, from the main panel. Concerning the power
disconnect, this is for fire safety. When the fireman goes to the house, if he wants to disconnect
the electricity, in most cases he opens the meter box on the outside of the house, and pulls the
meter out of the socket. This cuts of the power to the house.

I'd like to add a subpanel for a workshop and am wondering if it
absolutely has to be wired off of a breaker in the main box or if it
can be wired from the meter (i.e., can I have two main panels).

You would have to check your local codes, but we have three separate
service entrances (main panels).

Our electrical meter is located on a pole out at the road. Then the power
comes down to a junction box behind our pump house. Separate lines then run
to individual service entrances at the pump house, garage, and our house.
Each building has it's own main breaker, grounding electrodes, etc.
Completely seperate and isolated from each other (other than the incoming
power).

We built the pump house first, then our garage, and finally the house. So
we wouldn't have been able to run a subpanel off the house anyway.

However, I did run a small 30A circuit off the house panel to a small
subpanel in our storage shed.

Anthony

On 2006-10-22, HerHusband wrote:

You would have to check your local codes, but we have three separate
service entrances (main panels).

So how are the service entrance conductors sized? If the ampacity of
the service conductors is less than the sum of the ratings of the main
breakers on the three main panels, then the only thing protecting the
service conductors from overcurrent is the statistical unlikelihood of
all three services drawing maximum power simultaneously?

Thanks,
Wayne

The NEC doesn't require the main service conductors to be equal or greater
than the sum of the up to six main disconnects. It does however require the
calculated load to be less than the size of the service conductors


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2006-10-22, HerHusband wrote:

You would have to check your local codes, but we have three separate
service entrances (main panels).

So how are the service entrance conductors sized? If the ampacity of
the service conductors is less than the sum of the ratings of the main
breakers on the three main panels, then the only thing protecting the
service conductors from overcurrent is the statistical unlikelihood of
all three services drawing maximum power simultaneously?

Thanks,
Wayne

Wayne,

So how are the service entrance conductors sized? If the ampacity of
the service conductors is less than the sum of the ratings of the main
breakers on the three main panels, then the only thing protecting the
service conductors from overcurrent is the statistical unlikelihood of
all three services drawing maximum power simultaneously?

I installed a 200A panel in our garage, and another 200A panel in our
house. Each panel is supplied with three 4/0 aluminum conductors that
connect to the power companies junction box. Our pump house only has two
breakers, 20A for the pump, and 15A for the lights. It has been many years
since I hooked that up, but I think I used three 1/0 copper conductors for
that panel.

The cable between the junction boxes and the transformer at the road was
provided and installed by the power company. I wasn't here when they hooked
us up, so I don't know what kind of cable they have on their side. When we
hooked up our house, I asked the power guy about the cable, and he made a
comment that their cable was a little undersized to be powering all three
buildings. But he said that was done routinely a few years ago before they
started running load calculations. He said it wasn't a big problem, since
we were unlikely to max out all panels at once, but we may notice dimming
lights if I was powering up equipment in the garage while the heaters were
running in the house or something.

But, in the 15 years or so we have lived here, I've never noticed any
problems with dimming lights, or any other signs of too much current draw.

Anthony

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2006-10-22, HerHusband wrote:

You would have to check your local codes, but we have three separate
service entrances (main panels).

So how are the service entrance conductors sized? If the ampacity of
the service conductors is less than the sum of the ratings of the main
breakers on the three main panels, then the only thing protecting the
service conductors from overcurrent is the statistical unlikelihood of
all three services drawing maximum power simultaneously?

Thanks,
Wayne

They are sized by the load calculation adding any allowance desired for
future changes.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On 2006-10-22, RBM wrote:

The NEC doesn't require the main service conductors to be equal or
greater than the sum of the up to six main disconnects. It does
however require the calculated load to be less than the size of the
service conductors.

So nothing protects the service conductors from overcurrent. This
surprises me, but I guess if the main service conductors overheated
due to overcurrent, they are far less likely to start a fire in an
enclosed space compared to a branch circuit or feeder. I suppose that
is also the the reason that the distance the service conductors can
travel within a building before the main disconnect is restricted.

Cheers, Wayne

It's surprising to me as well. Usually the NEC seems to overprotect wiring
and equipment. Every time I, as an electrical contractor need to add a load
to one of these types of services, I have to do a load calculation, just to
be sure that the homeowners and electricians before me, didn't overload the
mains


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2006-10-22, RBM wrote:

The NEC doesn't require the main service conductors to be equal or
greater than the sum of the up to six main disconnects. It does
however require the calculated load to be less than the size of the
service conductors.

So nothing protects the service conductors from overcurrent. This
surprises me, but I guess if the main service conductors overheated
due to overcurrent, they are far less likely to start a fire in an
enclosed space compared to a branch circuit or feeder. I suppose that
is also the the reason that the distance the service conductors can
travel within a building before the main disconnect is restricted.

Cheers, Wayne

I'm running new circuits to a shop . The 3 wires coming into the meter are 2 hots and a ground or is the ground a nuetral

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...er-157646-.htm

On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:01:05 +0000, JoJo
wrote:

I'm running new circuits to a shop .
The 3 wires coming into the meter are 2 hots and a ground
or is the ground a neutral

Yes.

On 12/31/2020 12:01 PM, JoJo wrote:
I'm running new circuits to a shop . The 3 wires coming into the meter
are 2 hots and a ground or is the ground a nuetral


You should have a ground rod into the ground, usually near the meter box.

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 12:01:11 PM UTC-5, JoJo wrote:
I'm running new circuits to a shop . The 3 wires coming into the meter are 2 hots and a ground or is the ground a nuetral

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...er-157646-.htm


It's a neutral. The fact that you have to ask suggests that there are probably code
related issues involved here that you need to be aware of to do it safe and code
compliant.

On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:50:06 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 12:01:11 PM UTC-5, JoJo wrote:
I'm running new circuits to a shop . The 3 wires coming into the meter are 2 hots and a ground or is the ground a nuetral

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...er-157646-.htm


It's a neutral. The fact that you have to ask suggests that there are probably code
related issues involved here that you need to be aware of to do it safe and code
compliant.

This thread has been going on since the Bush administration and I
doubt it is still the same job so maybe this poster should tell us a
little more about what he is doing.

On Thursday, December 31, 2020 at 12:03:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 17:01:05 +0000, JoJo
wrote:

I'm running new circuits to a shop .
The 3 wires coming into the meter are 2 hots and a ground
or is the ground a neutral

Yes.

As per code NEC 250-23(b), 250-24(b). The building's grounded electrode must connect to the main ground wire which connects to main neutral wire which connects to the the back of the panel.