A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.

FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.

They get their "power" from different things. In the case of natural
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be confused
with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that creates a static
field when may well extend well beyond the magnet. When the field is
static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed creates an
opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a magnetic field will
move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.



--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

....

... natural [ie, permanent]
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.
....

Not really. It's from the alignment of the individual minute magnetic
fields of the orbiting electrons in the individual atoms. A fairly
nice discussion is at

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/maghow.htm

In a random chunk of ferromagnetic material, the microscopic magnetic
domains have a random orientation yielding very little or no net
magnetic force. Introduction of an external field can cause the
alignment of these domains. Once removed, in some materials (termed
"hard" magnet materials) a significant fraction of these domains will
retain this alignment, thus creating a permanent magnet.

As you allude to, there is also, of course, electromagnetism which is
induced by a varying external field.

Magnetism is a fascinating area of exploration for young (and old, too,
for that matter)...

dpb wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

...

... natural [ie, permanent]
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.
...

Not really. It's from the alignment of the individual minute magnetic
fields of the orbiting electrons in the individual atoms. A fairly
nice discussion is at

http://www.coolmagnetman.com/maghow.htm

In a random chunk of ferromagnetic material, the microscopic magnetic
domains have a random orientation yielding very little or no net
magnetic force. Introduction of an external field can cause the
alignment of these domains. Once removed, in some materials (termed
"hard" magnet materials) a significant fraction of these domains will
retain this alignment, thus creating a permanent magnet.

As you allude to, there is also, of course, electromagnetism which is
induced by a varying external field.

Magnetism is a fascinating area of exploration for young (and old, too,
for that matter)...

When heat treating high carbon tool steel to harden and temper it,
you can tell when the proper temperature has been reached by
holding a magnet to it. At that point, called the Curie point, the
domains fall apart and the magnet no longer sticks.

Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


They get their "power" from different things. In the case of natural
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be confused
with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that creates a static
field when may well extend well beyond the magnet. When the field is
static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed creates an
opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a magnetic field will
move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high energy
magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well have
been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water pipe
the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes several
seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a current
into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the copper creates
an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the magnet where it is,
thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor with
and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.



They get their "power" from different things. In the case of
natural magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be
confused with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that
creates a static field when may well extend well beyond the magnet.
When the field is static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed
creates an opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a
magnetic field will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high energy
magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well have
been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water pipe
the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes several
seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a current
into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the copper creates
an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the magnet where it is,
thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor with
and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff


Cool! If you force it through, will the pipe get warm?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Even though this is not the right place to ask the question, my take is the
following.

The alignment of the orbits of the electrons in a "magnet" are such that
when introduced to another ferrous object, that object is forced to align
its electrons which creates a vector force in a manner equal & opposite to
the "magnet's".

A magnet doesn't "have power" - it simply possesses properties that attract
ferrous materials to it. Sort of like elemental valencies that complement a
full shell in chemistry, but the force is magnetic, not electrostatic. The
magnetic "force field" it creates actually is net vector zero, and the
attractive force is equal & opposite to whatever is holding the magnet. So
to do the work, you need to work.....

It's not a simple explanation for a nine year old whichever way you look at
it, in fact some university physics students would have problems explaining
it.


"FiNOH" wrote in message
oups.com...
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.

CJT wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.




They get their "power" from different things. In the case of
natural magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be
confused with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that
creates a static field when may well extend well beyond the magnet.
When the field is static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed
creates an opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a
magnetic field will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high
energy magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well have
been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water
pipe the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes
several seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a current
into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the copper
creates an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the magnet
where it is, thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor
with and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff


Cool! If you force it through, will the pipe get warm?


Yes, but it'd take a pretty sensitive temperature measuring device to
measure it. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

Jeff Wisnia wrote in
:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


They get their "power" from different things. In the case of
natural
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be
confused
with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that creates a
static field when may well extend well beyond the magnet. When the
field is static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed
creates an
opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a magnetic field
will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high
energy magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well have
been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water
pipe the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes
several seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a current
into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the copper
creates an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the magnet
where it is, thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor
with and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff


As said,

moving a wire through a magnetic field
will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.


You can hold a piece of wire in your hands with an analog volt meter
clipped on each end. Pass it through the N & S poles of a magnet fairly
rapidly. You'll see the needle jump for a bit.

Why do this? Well, it gets the kids attention. Not as much as tossing a
small piece of dry ice in water though. Using water with food coloring in
it then drinking the water afterwards makes the tykes seriously wonder
about you.

Al Bundy wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote in
:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


They get their "power" from different things. In the case of
natural
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be
confused
with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that creates a
static field when may well extend well beyond the magnet. When the
field is static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed
creates an
opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a magnetic field
will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high
energy magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well have
been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water
pipe the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes
several seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a current
into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the copper
creates an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the magnet
where it is, thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor
with and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff


As said,

moving a wire through a magnetic field
will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.


You can hold a piece of wire in your hands with an analog volt meter
clipped on each end. Pass it through the N & S poles of a magnet fairly
rapidly. You'll see the needle jump for a bit.

Why do this? Well, it gets the kids attention. Not as much as tossing a
small piece of dry ice in water though. Using water with food coloring in
it then drinking the water afterwards makes the tykes seriously wonder
about you.

I always thought magnets got their power from refrigerators

"tmurf.1" wrote in
oups.com:


Al Bundy wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote in
:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

FiNOH wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


They get their "power" from different things. In the case of
natural
magnets they get their power from the spinning of the earth.

Power is not a good term to use, because it is likely to be
confused
with energy. Their power is a magnetic alignment that creates a
static field when may well extend well beyond the magnet. When
the field is static, no energy is used.

Moving the field takes energy and the movement of the filed
creates an
opposing energy. That is why moving a wire through a magnetic
field will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.

OK guys, that is overly simplified, but that is the idea.




Just last week I learned a neat simple demo you can do with high
energy magnets.

I used a 1/2" diameter by 1/2" long magnet, but it could as well
have been two or three thinner 1/2" diameter magnets stuck
together.

When dropped into an upright foot long length of 1/2" copper water
pipe the magnet, which fits quite loosely inside the pipe, takes
several seconds to decend through that length of pipe.

What's happening is that the moving magnet's field induces a
current into the copper pipe and that current flowing through the
copper creates an opposing magnetic field which wants to keep the
magnet where it is, thus slowing its fall.

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor
with and without it's power terminals shorted.

Jeff


As said,

moving a wire through a magnetic field
will move electrons (electricity) in the wire.


You can hold a piece of wire in your hands with an analog volt meter
clipped on each end. Pass it through the N & S poles of a magnet
fairly rapidly. You'll see the needle jump for a bit.

Why do this? Well, it gets the kids attention. Not as much as tossing
a small piece of dry ice in water though. Using water with food
coloring in it then drinking the water afterwards makes the tykes
seriously wonder about you.

I always thought magnets got their power from refrigerators




Yea but frigs get it from the TV.

FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?



This should answer: http://science.howstuffworks.com/electromagnet.htm

Better bookmark that place, as apparently you have a 9YO with an
inquisitive mind.

FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


Apparently you never had magnets as a child and
know nothing about magnets, the power does run
out. Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

In article ,
George E. Cawthon wrote:
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.


Apparently you never had magnets as a child and
know nothing about magnets, the power does run
out. Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

arrogance and stupidity?

--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

wrote:
In article ,
George E. Cawthon wrote:
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Thanks
FINOH #29718
Finoh #28437
FiNOH #27447
I love spacefed.

Apparently you never had magnets as a child and
know nothing about magnets, the power does run
out. Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

arrogance and stupidity?

No. Apparently that's your forte.

According to Jeff Wisnia :

It's a simplified example of the resistance you can feel with your
fingers if you spin the shaft of a small permanent magnet DC motor with
and without it's power terminals shorted.

Shorting the power leads of a motor is sometimes used for quick
braking.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On 8 Oct 2006 12:17:37 -0700, "FiNOH" wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

Despite all the good answers here, I think that your son is asking how
does something in the magnet reach out and with no apparent means
attract a piece of iron. And I think the answer is that no one knows.

It's observable, and observers can give lots of details, but that is
not the same thing as saying how it happens.

IIRC and part of this I clearly don't RC, there are two
inter-something forces, the small and the great xxxxx. One of them
is what makes atoms and molecules stick together, and the other is
magnetism. They can be described in detail, like similar poles repel
and opposite poles attract, and even more detail than that, but none
of this says how it happens.

mm wrote:
On 8 Oct 2006 12:17:37 -0700, "FiNOH" wrote:


A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Despite all the good answers here, I think that your son is asking how
does something in the magnet reach out and with no apparent means
attract a piece of iron. And I think the answer is that no one knows.

It's observable, and observers can give lots of details, but that is
not the same thing as saying how it happens.

IIRC and part of this I clearly don't RC, there are two
inter-something forces, the small and the great xxxxx. One of them
is what makes atoms and molecules stick together, and the other is
magnetism. They can be described in detail, like similar poles repel
and opposite poles attract, and even more detail than that, but none
of this says how it happens.

1. If you cut a magnet in half, you get two magnets each with a N and S pole
2. If you hit a magnet with a hammer, (or drop it) you might lose some
if not all of the power (or magnetism).
3. You can rub a screwdriver on a magnet and transfer some magnetism to
the screwdriver. Just my 2 cents Chuck

"FiNOH" wrote in message
oups.com...
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

Good luck! No one really understands magnetism any more than anyone really
understands gravity. In other words, it's essentially "magic".

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?


Apparently you never had magnets as a child and know nothing about
magnets, the power does run out. Electro-magnetism is one force, another
is gravity. Here is your question, name two other natural forces!

What an asshole.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On 8 Oct 2006 12:17:37 -0700, "FiNOH" wrote:

A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

Despite all the good answers here, I think that your son is asking how
does something in the magnet reach out and with no apparent means
attract a piece of iron. And I think the answer is that no one knows.

It's observable, and observers can give lots of details, but that is
not the same thing as saying how it happens.

It's observable and more importantly predictable. That's basically the
extent of the science there (don't get me wrong, it's very important and
useful, but not the same as true understanding, as you say.)

"George E. Cawthon" writes:
Here is your question, name two other natural forces!
That's a pretty weak question.
Perhaps the OP isn't as strong as you are at physics.



--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
In my email replace SeeEmmYou.EeeDeeYou with CMU.EDU

(Chris Lewis) writes:
Shorting the power leads of a motor is sometimes used for quick braking.

or hooking it up to an ultra-capacitor/battery for regenerative
breaking.

I believe intentional shorts are called shunts.

--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
In my email replace SeeEmmYou.EeeDeeYou with CMU.EDU

Chuck B. wrote:

mm wrote:

On 8 Oct 2006 12:17:37 -0700, "FiNOH" wrote:


A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?



Despite all the good answers here, I think that your son is asking how
does something in the magnet reach out and with no apparent means
attract a piece of iron. And I think the answer is that no one knows.

It's observable, and observers can give lots of details, but that is
not the same thing as saying how it happens.

IIRC and part of this I clearly don't RC, there are two
inter-something forces, the small and the great xxxxx. One of them
is what makes atoms and molecules stick together, and the other is
magnetism. They can be described in detail, like similar poles repel
and opposite poles attract, and even more detail than that, but none
of this says how it happens.


1. If you cut a magnet in half, you get two magnets each with a N and S
pole
2. If you hit a magnet with a hammer, (or drop it) you might lose some
if not all of the power (or magnetism).

But, you can take an unmagnetized iron rod, orient it correctly in the
earth's field (I ferget which way.) and pound it on one end with a
hammer. That will weakly magnetize it.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

George E. Cawthon wrote
Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

=============

You appear to be the smartest person here.
Could you get us started by enumerating the
"unnatural forces" before we start listing the
"natural forces"?

Obviously you are too bright and too smug to
make a 9th grader's mistake of referring to the
4 fundemental forces as "natural forces."

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

==============

Some, but not all, forces:


Friction, electrostatic, buoyancy, elasticity, adhesive,
aerodynamic lift, thrust.

Fictitious forces: coriolis, centrifigual.

Political forces: GOP, DNC.

Gideon wrote:
....

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

The timing here isn't right--at the time Einstein did special and
general relativity, the strong and weak nuclear forces weren't yet
identified. In his latter years, his attempts at unification were
hindered greatly by being still too early and his unwillingness to
accept quantum mechanics as being an actual description of "how the
world works". The problem is that without QM, we have no way to
describe the miniscule although the large is handled nicely.
Unfortunately, even at the large scales, when one gets to the boundary
conditions where gravitational fields become immense, then there QM
rears its ugly head again.

For readable accounts for any interested, Hawking's "A Brief History of
Time" and Brian Greene's various works are recommended. Hawking
primarily for up to the time at which the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts) essentially replacing earlier attempts (such
as "supergravity") and Greene for newer developments.

"dpb" wrote in news:1160423336.308758.6200
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


Gideon wrote:
...

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

The timing here isn't right--at the time Einstein did special and
general relativity, the strong and weak nuclear forces weren't yet
identified. In his latter years, his attempts at unification were
hindered greatly by being still too early and his unwillingness to
accept quantum mechanics as being an actual description of "how the
world works". The problem is that without QM, we have no way to
describe the miniscule although the large is handled nicely.
Unfortunately, even at the large scales, when one gets to the boundary
conditions where gravitational fields become immense, then there QM
rears its ugly head again.

For readable accounts for any interested, Hawking's "A Brief History of
Time" and Brian Greene's various works are recommended. Hawking
primarily for up to the time at which the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts) essentially replacing earlier attempts (such
as "supergravity") and Greene for newer developments.




...the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts)...

Didn't know string theory was that old! Don't get much exposure to that
line of stuff any more. Limited to catching something by chance on
PBS/Nova/Disc. Sometimes even Cops gets old :-)

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:28:53 GMT, "Gideon" wrote:


George E. Cawthon wrote:

Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

==============

Some, but not all, forces:


Friction, electrostatic, buoyancy, elasticity, adhesive,
aerodynamic lift, thrust.

Fictitious forces: coriolis, centrifigual.

Political forces: GOP, DNC.


How about the strong and weak nuclear forces?
--
77 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:28:53 GMT, "Gideon" wrote:


George E. Cawthon wrote:

Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

==============

Some, but not all, forces:


Friction, electrostatic, buoyancy, elasticity, adhesive,
aerodynamic lift, thrust.

As it turns out, these are implemented via any or any combination of the
4 known fundamental forces of the universe. None of these use either the
strong or weak nuclear force. Basically it's the electromagnetic one -
via electrostatic repulsion of electron shells of atoms, and any
electrostatic attraction between molecule regions having an "above-normal
concentration of electron presence" (molecule regions negatively charged)
and molecule regions having a "below-normal concentration of electron
presence" (molecule regions positively charged). Although often enough we
experience gravity.

Fictitious forces: coriolis, centrifigual.

How we feel these (or the non-fictitious forces that the fictitious
ones are "the equal and opposite reaction to", as in the force that
forces an object to take a curved path) is normally through the
electromagnetic one of the four known fundamental forces of the universe.

Political forces: GOP, DNC.


How about the strong and weak nuclear forces?

- Don Klipstein )

jeffc wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
FiNOH wrote:
A 9 yr old had a question I couldn't answer. Where do magnets get
their power? Why doesn't it run out?

Apparently you never had magnets as a child and know nothing about
magnets, the power does run out. Electro-magnetism is one force, another
is gravity. Here is your question, name two other natural forces!

What an asshole.


I think you are the second with that statement.
Must be because neither of you can answer it.

Guess you missed the fact that the kids question
was based on a fallacy. People that know
practically nothing about science, e.g. most 9
year old children, often ask questions based on a
fallacy.

Philip Lewis wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" writes:
Here is your question, name two other natural forces!
That's a pretty weak question.
Perhaps the OP isn't as strong as you are at physics.




Ha. Ha. I didn't expect an answer, it was just a
tease since the kid's question is about basic
physics. It does bite my butt that few adults
can answer two simple question, Name three natural
forces and name three states of matter. (Don't
expect anyone to list all the forces and all the
recognized states of matter). That very basic
information about the world we live in isn't
taught in schools or at least it isn't taught in a
manner that students retain or understand it.

Gideon wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote
Electro-magnetism is one force, another is
gravity. Here is your question, name two other
natural forces!

=============

You appear to be the smartest person here.
Could you get us started by enumerating the
"unnatural forces" before we start listing the
"natural forces"?

Being snotty and a jackass makes you smarter?


Obviously you are too bright and too smug to
make a 9th grader's mistake of referring to the
4 fundemental forces as "natural forces."

9th graders don't generally know anything about
forces and in most school have not take chemistry
or physics. But you may have me there,
fundamental is a better words than natural.

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

Wow! I always thought learning basic information
was more valuable that learning who discovered it
and when it was discovered.

dpb wrote:
Gideon wrote:
...

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

The timing here isn't right--at the time Einstein did special and
general relativity, the strong and weak nuclear forces weren't yet
identified. In his latter years, his attempts at unification were
hindered greatly by being still too early and his unwillingness to
accept quantum mechanics as being an actual description of "how the
world works". The problem is that without QM, we have no way to
describe the miniscule although the large is handled nicely.
Unfortunately, even at the large scales, when one gets to the boundary
conditions where gravitational fields become immense, then there QM
rears its ugly head again.

For readable accounts for any interested, Hawking's "A Brief History of
Time" and Brian Greene's various works are recommended. Hawking
primarily for up to the time at which the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts) essentially replacing earlier attempts (such
as "supergravity") and Greene for newer developments.


Uh oh. Dangerous to raise your head here, prepare
to be pounded down. Can't have anyone above the
average level.

In article ,
says...
dpb wrote:
Gideon wrote:
...

All forces are natural. But it is commonly believe
(thanks to Uncle Albert) that all forces are derived
from 4 fundemental forces. Proving it was one of
Einsteins great unfinished works.

The timing here isn't right--at the time Einstein did special and
general relativity, the strong and weak nuclear forces weren't yet
identified. In his latter years, his attempts at unification were
hindered greatly by being still too early and his unwillingness to
accept quantum mechanics as being an actual description of "how the
world works". The problem is that without QM, we have no way to
describe the miniscule although the large is handled nicely.
Unfortunately, even at the large scales, when one gets to the boundary
conditions where gravitational fields become immense, then there QM
rears its ugly head again.

For readable accounts for any interested, Hawking's "A Brief History of
Time" and Brian Greene's various works are recommended. Hawking
primarily for up to the time at which the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts) essentially replacing earlier attempts (such
as "supergravity") and Greene for newer developments.


Uh oh. Dangerous to raise your head here, prepare
to be pounded down. Can't have anyone above the
average level.

Don't think dpb has anything to worry about -- it's not being well-
educated that sets people off here, it's being a pompous jackass about
it. dpb provided information in a polite manner, rather than
supercilious questions, quite a different approach to social
interaction.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

Ha. Ha. I didn't expect an answer, it was just a
tease since the kid's question is about basic
physics. It does bite my butt that few adults
can answer two simple question, Name three natural
forces and name three states of matter. (Don't
expect anyone to list all the forces and all the
recognized states of matter). That very basic
information about the world we live in isn't
taught in schools or at least it isn't taught in a
manner that students retain or understand it.

A significant fraction of the people in the
country can't reliably identify the atlantic
ocean on an unlabled map, their anniversary,
or their own freaking email password.
And you're expecting to remember what a
"state of matter" is?

Don Klipstein wrote:
....

... as in the force that forces an object to take a curved path...

Of course, at the fundamental level, special relativity shows that it's
actually space-time that is curved by the gravitational field and the
object takes a straight path...

"George E. Cawthon" writes:
Philip Lewis wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" writes:
Here is your question, name two other natural forces!
That's a pretty weak question.
Perhaps the OP isn't as strong as you are at physics.
It does bite my butt that few adults can answer two simple question,
Name three natural forces and name three states of matter.
I've heard they've recently created new states, and in a search found
more than i though:

Bose-Einstein Condensate Liquid:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/matter.html

Bose-Einstein Condensate Solid:
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2...-einstein.html

Some new superhot liquid:
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/P...asp?prID=05-38

neat.

That very basic information about the world we live in isn't
taught in schools or at least it isn't taught in a manner that
students retain or understand it.
well, I learned and retained it in the 70s/80s... but i'll bet many
folks in the same class havn't. I can't spell for crap though.
Different folks will learn and retain different things given the same
stimuli/classes. It's just a matter of what folks find to be important
to them. Sadly, a large percentage of those folks find trivia about
sports or trite television shows to be more important than states of
matter and physical forces.


--
May no harm befall you,
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
In my email replace SeeEmmYou.EeeDeeYou with CMU.EDU

Al Bundy wrote:
"dpb" wrote in news:1160423336.308758.6200
....

....

...the transition to string theories
(mid-80s or thereabouts)...

Didn't know string theory was that old! Don't get much exposure to that
line of stuff any more. Limited to catching something by chance on
PBS/Nova/Disc. Sometimes even Cops gets old :-)

This old guy finds it incredible, too. All this stuff was essentially
unknown when I was finishing undergraduate work and still considered
almost purely conjectural even after had finished graduate degree some
ten years later (didn't go straight on, obviously. I'm slow, but not
_that_ slow! )

If you have any interest at all, I do strongly recommend both Hawking
and Greene. Particularly The Brief History of Time is quite short and
an easy read (he states in the Foreword that his editors told him his
audience could be expected to be halved for every equation he included
so there's only one in the entire book! ) but does a nice job of
explaining the overall transition from the Aristolean thru Copernican
and to Newtonian physics, then the "crises" that led to modern physics
in a way that is quite coherent. It does cover the very rudimentary
ideas of string theories towards the end, but was written when these
ideas were still evolving quite rapidly so that to try to do more than
mention them would have detracted more than explained.

Greene (The Elegant Universe, etc.) is a little harder going, but still
not at all a textbook but a general description/overview and written
more recently. The concepts there start to get _really_ esoteric (as
if quantum effects and special relativity aren't bizarre enough as
compared to "normal" experience! ), but are fascinating as to what
may (and I emphasize the "may" here) turn out to be the way the
universe is actually put together. (There was at least one NOVA built
around The Elegant Universe, but I found it difficult to really get
much from as the production seemed somehow disjointed. It was
interesting, but not satisfying, at least to me. Being able to read
the book was better.)

dpb wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
...

... as in the force that forces an object to take a curved path...

Of course, at the fundamental level, special relativity shows that it's
actually space-time that is curved by the gravitational field and the
object takes a straight path...

That, of course, was intended to be "general"...