I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral. It
wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI (within
the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future perhaps
someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the bedroom, or
double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a
standard breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this
should have two unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would
make me nervous - if one trips or is turned off, there is still current
in that calbe on the other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral. It
wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI (within
the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future perhaps
someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the bedroom, or
double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two breakers. You
need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms. Why are you
installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

It's fine, just make sure your common neutral connections are pigtailed and
not dependent on the receptacles
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a standard
breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this should have two
unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would make me nervous - if
one trips or is turned off, there is still current in that calbe on the
other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral. It
wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI (within
the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future
perhaps someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the
bedroom, or double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

These are for window AirConditioners, and happen to be right next to hot
water radiators, which I figured are as likely to be as good a ground as
a faucet in a bathroom.

Do you see any reason that I cannot simply use the ganged 220v breaker
like I had it before (ignoring the AFCI for now.) That way both
circuits are tripped when either one is overloaded.

emichael

RBM wrote:
You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two breakers. You
need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms. Why are you
installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

Not a problem


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
hlink.net...
These are for window AirConditioners, and happen to be right next to hot
water radiators, which I figured are as likely to be as good a ground as a
faucet in a bathroom.

Do you see any reason that I cannot simply use the ganged 220v breaker
like I had it before (ignoring the AFCI for now.) That way both circuits
are tripped when either one is overloaded.

emichael

RBM wrote:
You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two breakers.
You need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms. Why are you
installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

They are in fact pigtailed, btu why is it okay to have current in one
circuit in the romex ? Is that not a hazard to someone who thinks the
power is off by having thrown one breaker?

And altho you are saying it IS legal to have two unganged breakers, is
it not okay (or even better) to do it with a ganged 220 v breaker like I
had it before and like the first inspector passed on?

emichael

RBM wrote:
It's fine, just make sure your common neutral connections are pigtailed and
not dependent on the receptacles
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a standard
breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this should have two
unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would make me nervous - if
one trips or is turned off, there is still current in that calbe on the
other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?
AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral. It
wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI (within
the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future
perhaps someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the
bedroom, or double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

thanks.

emichael

RBM wrote:
It's fine, just make sure your common neutral connections are pigtailed and
not dependent on the receptacles
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a standard
breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this should have two
unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would make me nervous - if
one trips or is turned off, there is still current in that calbe on the
other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?
AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral. It
wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI (within
the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future
perhaps someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the
bedroom, or double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

thanks so much.

btw, in the future if I decide to use my now useless AFCIs in two new
kitchen circuits, would a GFCI be needed at the outlets? Or are AFCIs
doing both jobs according to code?

emichael

RBM wrote:
Not a problem


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
hlink.net...
These are for window AirConditioners, and happen to be right next to hot
water radiators, which I figured are as likely to be as good a ground as a
faucet in a bathroom.

Do you see any reason that I cannot simply use the ganged 220v breaker
like I had it before (ignoring the AFCI for now.) That way both circuits
are tripped when either one is overloaded.

emichael

RBM wrote:
You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two breakers.
You need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms. Why are you
installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

You actually have two separate circuits. With circuit A off, all the outlets
etc attached are dead. With circuit B off, all those outlets are dead. The
only problem or danger is in unsplicing the common neutral. By connecting
the two circuits to a double pole breaker, you eliminate that possible
danger as well. I don't recall code on when a double pole is required for
Edison circuits, but I believe if outlets in one box are connected to both
live legs, you're required to use a double pole breaker


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
They are in fact pigtailed, btu why is it okay to have current in one
circuit in the romex ? Is that not a hazard to someone who thinks the
power is off by having thrown one breaker?

And altho you are saying it IS legal to have two unganged breakers, is it
not okay (or even better) to do it with a ganged 220 v breaker like I had
it before and like the first inspector passed on?

emichael

RBM wrote:
It's fine, just make sure your common neutral connections are pigtailed
and not dependent on the receptacles
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a
standard breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this
should have two unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would
make me nervous - if one trips or is turned off, there is still current
in that calbe on the other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i
needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole
220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a
way
to use AFCIs in this situation?
AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral.
It wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI
(within the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future
perhaps someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the
bedroom, or double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

AFCI's are for bedrooms only, kitchen's require GFCI's for all counter
outlets


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks so much.

btw, in the future if I decide to use my now useless AFCIs in two new
kitchen circuits, would a GFCI be needed at the outlets? Or are AFCIs
doing both jobs according to code?

emichael

RBM wrote:
Not a problem


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
hlink.net...
These are for window AirConditioners, and happen to be right next to hot
water radiators, which I figured are as likely to be as good a ground as
a faucet in a bathroom.

Do you see any reason that I cannot simply use the ganged 220v breaker
like I had it before (ignoring the AFCI for now.) That way both
circuits are tripped when either one is overloaded.

emichael

RBM wrote:
You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two
breakers. You need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms.
Why are you installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i
needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole
220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a
way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

I understand. thanks.

emichael


RBM wrote:
You actually have two separate circuits. With circuit A off, all the outlets
etc attached are dead. With circuit B off, all those outlets are dead. The
only problem or danger is in unsplicing the common neutral. By connecting
the two circuits to a double pole breaker, you eliminate that possible
danger as well. I don't recall code on when a double pole is required for
Edison circuits, but I believe if outlets in one box are connected to both
live legs, you're required to use a double pole breaker


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
They are in fact pigtailed, btu why is it okay to have current in one
circuit in the romex ? Is that not a hazard to someone who thinks the
power is off by having thrown one breaker?

And altho you are saying it IS legal to have two unganged breakers, is it
not okay (or even better) to do it with a ganged 220 v breaker like I had
it before and like the first inspector passed on?

emichael

RBM wrote:
It's fine, just make sure your common neutral connections are pigtailed
and not dependent on the receptacles
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks.

hmm, then I just have to remove the afci breakers and revert to a
standard breaker I guess. Was the HomeDepot fellow right that this
should have two unganged breakers, one for each circuit? That would
make me nervous - if one trips or is turned off, there is still current
in that calbe on the other circuit.

emichael

peter wrote:
"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i
needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole
220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a
way
to use AFCIs in this situation?
AFCI contains a 30mA GFCI. You cannot use GFCI with a shared neutral.
It wants to see equal current on the neutral and the hot. With a shared
neutral, there is no way to make it work. Like you said, the GFCI
(within the AFCI) is confused.

If you want AFCI, you need to have two 12/2 circuits. In the future
perhaps someone would make AFCI receptacles you can installed in the
bedroom, or double AFCI breaker specifically for shared neutral ciruit.

okay thanks.

emichael

RBM wrote:
AFCI's are for bedrooms only, kitchen's require GFCI's for all counter
outlets


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
thanks so much.

btw, in the future if I decide to use my now useless AFCIs in two new
kitchen circuits, would a GFCI be needed at the outlets? Or are AFCIs
doing both jobs according to code?

emichael

RBM wrote:
Not a problem


"e michael brandt" wrote in message
hlink.net...
These are for window AirConditioners, and happen to be right next to hot
water radiators, which I figured are as likely to be as good a ground as
a faucet in a bathroom.

Do you see any reason that I cannot simply use the ganged 220v breaker
like I had it before (ignoring the AFCI for now.) That way both
circuits are tripped when either one is overloaded.

emichael

RBM wrote:
You are correct that you can't share a neutral between the two
breakers. You need to run separate two wire circuits to the bedrooms.
Why are you installing GFCI outlets in bedrooms?


"emichael" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i
needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole
220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a
way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

Dude! Wiring is no hobby and you don't know what you are doing, so hire
a licensed Electrical Contractor. Put your family up in a Hotel until
you get someone qualified to check out your "Cluster F" of a job. You
will burn down your home if you try hard enough!



e michael brandt wrote:
I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...

btw, in the future if I decide to use my now useless AFCIs in two new
kitchen circuits, would a GFCI be needed at the outlets? Or are AFCIs
doing both jobs according to code?

The GFCI inside the AFCI trips at 30mA. It is meant to protect equipments,
not human. I believe this GFCI is an unpublicized feature of AFCI. Therefore
you still need to install a regular GFCI, which trips at 5mA.

In the future there will be combination AFCI/GFCI (trips at 5mA). This is
puzzling to me. If they have a built-in 30mA GFCI, it should cost very
little to make it trip at 5mA, and they can sell it for more.

BTW, current AFCI only detects parallel fault (e.g. an intermitent short
circuit). They will be required to detect series arc as well (intermittent
open circuit) eventually.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
You actually have two separate circuits. With circuit A off, all the
outlets etc attached are dead. With circuit B off, all those outlets are
dead. The only problem or danger is in unsplicing the common neutral. By
connecting the two circuits to a double pole breaker, you eliminate that
possible danger as well. I don't recall code on when a double pole is
required for Edison circuits, but I believe if outlets in one box are
connected to both live legs, you're required to use a double pole breaker



Linked breakers required only on the same yoke (strap), not just in the same
box.

NEC 210.4 B (2005) (B) Devices or Equipment. Where a multiwire branch
circuit supplies more than one device
or equipment on the same yoke, a means shall be provided to disconnect
simultaneously

all ungrounded conductors supplying those devices or equipment at the point
where the branch circuit originates.

Sounds logical to me. Thanks.

emichael

Paul A wrote:
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
You actually have two separate circuits. With circuit A off, all the
outlets etc attached are dead. With circuit B off, all those outlets are
dead. The only problem or danger is in unsplicing the common neutral. By
connecting the two circuits to a double pole breaker, you eliminate that
possible danger as well. I don't recall code on when a double pole is
required for Edison circuits, but I believe if outlets in one box are
connected to both live legs, you're required to use a double pole breaker



Linked breakers required only on the same yoke (strap), not just in the same
box.

NEC 210.4 B (2005) (B) Devices or Equipment. Where a multiwire branch
circuit supplies more than one device
or equipment on the same yoke, a means shall be provided to disconnect
simultaneously

all ungrounded conductors supplying those devices or equipment at the point
where the branch circuit originates.

Thanks for letting me know the details of these GFCIs.

emichael

peter wrote:
"e michael brandt" wrote in message
link.net...
btw, in the future if I decide to use my now useless AFCIs in two new
kitchen circuits, would a GFCI be needed at the outlets? Or are AFCIs
doing both jobs according to code?

The GFCI inside the AFCI trips at 30mA. It is meant to protect equipments,
not human. I believe this GFCI is an unpublicized feature of AFCI. Therefore
you still need to install a regular GFCI, which trips at 5mA.

In the future there will be combination AFCI/GFCI (trips at 5mA). This is
puzzling to me. If they have a built-in 30mA GFCI, it should cost very
little to make it trip at 5mA, and they can sell it for more.

BTW, current AFCI only detects parallel fault (e.g. an intermitent short
circuit). They will be required to detect series arc as well (intermittent
open circuit) eventually.

e michael brandt wrote:
I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

You can buy 12/2+2 with ground cable for the purpose of supplying two
AFCI protected circuits in one cable run. Both Square D and Cutler
Hammer offer two pole common neutral AFCIs but the price is very high.
You will only find them through an electrical supply house. General
Electric's version can be seen at http://www.arcadvisor.com/afci.html.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

I had read that such cable was to be available. I , but did not know it
was already on the market. This is good info for the future, but
unfortunately the horse is out of this barn. After running the cable
(this one and others) up to the attic, I filled the chase with blown
insulation and foam so there is no longer any way to run cable easily.

What i really need now is AFCIs that go into the outlet box. Are they
on the near horizon that you know of?

emichael

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
e michael brandt wrote:
I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started
due to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely
correct that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that
fact together with the common ground issue. He should either have
told me a) I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room,
abandoning one leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector
passed my 220v ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead
he told me to install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

You can buy 12/2+2 with ground cable for the purpose of supplying two
AFCI protected circuits in one cable run. Both Square D and Cutler
Hammer offer two pole common neutral AFCIs but the price is very high.
You will only find them through an electrical supply house. General
Electric's version can be seen at http://www.arcadvisor.com/afci.html.

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:50:10 GMT, e michael brandt
wrote:

I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


This is not a how-to, but to get you familar with how maybe an
electrician can help you.

1. Order an expensive double-pole AFCI breaker for your current
wiring method and panel.

or

2. Pull the orginal wire(12/3) down into a small load center, then
installed AFCI's in that load center then feed you bedrooms.

or

3. Tape to the end of the 12/3 some 12/2/2 and pull. The 12/3 might
feed back to your panel and then you will have the correct wire and do
a normal AFCI installation.

or

4. A combination of these listed, or other ideas.

See? The idea is that you NEED a qualified electrician to help, and
home inspectors only evaluate overall work, they don't tell YOU (or
who does the work) how to do their job, it is their (or YOU)
responsiblity.

Good luck, and please tell us what happens in follow-ups.

later,


tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com






Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb


No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

Tom, you are indeed great. i am thrilled to learn that there are
actually double pole AFCI's, designed for shared neutrals like mine!
Altho pricey, that is the way to go. A simple solution. thanks so much.

emichael



Tom The Great wrote:
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:50:10 GMT, e michael brandt
wrote:

I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


This is not a how-to, but to get you familar with how maybe an
electrician can help you.

1. Order an expensive double-pole AFCI breaker for your current
wiring method and panel.

or

2. Pull the orginal wire(12/3) down into a small load center, then
installed AFCI's in that load center then feed you bedrooms.

or

3. Tape to the end of the 12/3 some 12/2/2 and pull. The 12/3 might
feed back to your panel and then you will have the correct wire and do
a normal AFCI installation.

or

4. A combination of these listed, or other ideas.

See? The idea is that you NEED a qualified electrician to help, and
home inspectors only evaluate overall work, they don't tell YOU (or
who does the work) how to do their job, it is their (or YOU)
responsiblity.

Good luck, and please tell us what happens in follow-ups.

later,


tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com





Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 22:09:30 GMT, e michael brandt
wrote:

Tom, you are indeed great. i am thrilled to learn that there are
actually double pole AFCI's, designed for shared neutrals like mine!
Altho pricey, that is the way to go. A simple solution. thanks so much.

emichael

Like baby pigeons, I've never seen a double pole AFCI, but I guess
they exist from practicle need, and people told me so.

Good luck, do a quick google search with information of what type of
panel you have.

Good luck, but I stand by the suggestion you get a licensed/qualified
electricion going forward.

later,

tom @ www.BlankHelp.com






Tom The Great wrote:
On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 00:50:10 GMT, e michael brandt
wrote:

I appreciate your comments. Understand though that all this started due
to misdirection from the electrical inspector! He was surely correct
that AFCIs are required in bedrooms, but failed to put that fact
together with the common ground issue. He should either have told me a)
I must bite the bullet and re-run a circuit to one room, abandoning one
leg of my 12/3 OR acknowledge that the first inspector passed my 220v
ganged breaker and left things as they were. Instead he told me to
install AFCIs where it seems they can not physically work.

emichael


This is not a how-to, but to get you familar with how maybe an
electrician can help you.

1. Order an expensive double-pole AFCI breaker for your current
wiring method and panel.

or

2. Pull the orginal wire(12/3) down into a small load center, then
installed AFCI's in that load center then feed you bedrooms.

or

3. Tape to the end of the 12/3 some 12/2/2 and pull. The 12/3 might
feed back to your panel and then you will have the correct wire and do
a normal AFCI installation.

or

4. A combination of these listed, or other ideas.

See? The idea is that you NEED a qualified electrician to help, and
home inspectors only evaluate overall work, they don't tell YOU (or
who does the work) how to do their job, it is their (or YOU)
responsiblity.

Good luck, and please tell us what happens in follow-ups.

later,


tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com





Tom The Great wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:53:09 -0700, "emichael" wrote:

I had run a 12/3 w.g 220v circuit to my attic, and then branched into
two 12/2 w.g to run 110v to each of two separate GFCI-protected wall
outlets. Originally I had a ganged double pole 20a 220v breaker
supplying this paired circuit, and all was well. And the electrical
inspector was content.

But then a different electrical inspector told me that instead i needed
to have AFCI breakers in the breaker box, since these outlets are in
bedrooms. So, I bought two 20a AFCIs (I could find no double pole 220v
AFCIs and the guy at HomeDepot said with this situation they should
have been on two separate breakers anyway.)

Well, now the AFCIs trip (both of them simultaneously) whenever there
is any load on either circuit. My guess is that because there is a
shared neutral, the AFCIs are getting confused. But I am also
wondering if the problem might be because there are GFCIs at each
outlet. Can GFCIs and AFCIs cooexist okay? If so, then is there a way
to use AFCIs in this situation?

Thanks for your help.

emichaelb

No offense, but reading some of the replies, you need to leave this
group, and get yourself a licensed and insured electrician, before you
kill someone. Or worse, void your home insurance policy!

later,

tom

According to e michael brandt :
Sounds logical to me. Thanks.

[That only applies to the NEC. The CEC _requires_ tied breakers
on shared neutral circuits, period.]

But that's irrelevant. The original issue is NOT whether the breakers
are tied together, but because they share a neutral.

You _cannot_ feed a shared neutral circuit with two separate
AFCI's or GFCI's. It just don't work. Code or not.

You either have to split the neutral (run another cable),
OR, install the AFCI's AFTER the circuit splits to the bedrooms.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.