I know someone whose kitchen's wall outlet/receptacle has 3 prong connector.
However, tester show that they are not grounded.

These receptacles are in the kitchen, where there's plan to plug in (different
outlet)
- free standing gas oven/range
- refrigerator

My questions are
1. is it dangerous to run these appliances on ungrounded receptacles?
what's the risk with such setup?
2. the handyman who helped with some of the fixup said it's difficult to
"ground" those receptables. It pretty much require toring up parts of the
kitchen, where cabinets/ceramic tiles are installed, and there's no plan
to do any serious remodeling
To make things more difficult, this is a 3 floor building, where ground
floor is car garage, and 2nd and 3rd floor is residence, and this kitchen
is on the 3rd floor, and there's no plan to disturb 2nd floor at all
3. one person suggested to put a surge suppressor adaptor between the wall
outlet and appliance, in lieu of a grounded connection. Is this advisable
4. would a GFCI receptacle/extension cord help in this scenerio

I am not familiar with electric at all, so I apologize if I am asking dumb
questions. What I like to know is what options are available

a. take the risk and plug in to an ungrounded outlet
b. have some sort of workaround (adaptor/suppressor/gfci/etc), using ungrounded outlet
c. have some other set of eyes looking at the receptacle, and maybe get lucky
by just do some simple/quick wiring, and get a grounded outlet

Sorry for the long post

K.K.

Clueless,

Have an electrician take a look. It's really likely that the old wire can
be pulled and new wire installed without any tearing up of walls. May be
expensive though. A much cheaper fix would be to see if the junction boxes
are grounded and run wire from there to the receptacles.

Dave M.

"Clueless" wrote in message
...
I know someone whose kitchen's wall outlet/receptacle has 3 prong
connector.
However, tester show that they are not grounded.

These receptacles are in the kitchen, where there's plan to plug in
(different
outlet)
- free standing gas oven/range
- refrigerator

My questions are
1. is it dangerous to run these appliances on ungrounded receptacles?
what's the risk with such setup?
2. the handyman who helped with some of the fixup said it's difficult to
"ground" those receptables. It pretty much require toring up parts of
the
kitchen, where cabinets/ceramic tiles are installed, and there's no plan
to do any serious remodeling
To make things more difficult, this is a 3 floor building, where ground
floor is car garage, and 2nd and 3rd floor is residence, and this
kitchen
is on the 3rd floor, and there's no plan to disturb 2nd floor at all
3. one person suggested to put a surge suppressor adaptor between the wall
outlet and appliance, in lieu of a grounded connection. Is this
advisable
4. would a GFCI receptacle/extension cord help in this scenerio

The easiest way to improve the situation is to replace the receptacles with
GFCI ones. You don't need a ground wire to do this, and it greatly improves
safety.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:22:18 GMT, "peter" wrote:

"Clueless" wrote in message
.. .
I know someone whose kitchen's wall outlet/receptacle has 3 prong
connector.
However, tester show that they are not grounded.

These receptacles are in the kitchen, where there's plan to plug in
(different
outlet)
- free standing gas oven/range
- refrigerator

My questions are
1. is it dangerous to run these appliances on ungrounded receptacles?
what's the risk with such setup?
2. the handyman who helped with some of the fixup said it's difficult to
"ground" those receptables. It pretty much require toring up parts of
the
kitchen, where cabinets/ceramic tiles are installed, and there's no plan
to do any serious remodeling
To make things more difficult, this is a 3 floor building, where ground
floor is car garage, and 2nd and 3rd floor is residence, and this
kitchen
is on the 3rd floor, and there's no plan to disturb 2nd floor at all
3. one person suggested to put a surge suppressor adaptor between the wall
outlet and appliance, in lieu of a grounded connection. Is this
advisable
4. would a GFCI receptacle/extension cord help in this scenerio

The easiest way to improve the situation is to replace the receptacles with
GFCI ones. You don't need a ground wire to do this, and it greatly improves
safety.

I never thought so, but from reading these things, some people seem to
get the idea that having the GFCI actually provides a ground. It
doesn't.
--
104 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask be to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Thanks for the feedback

I keep seeing GFCI mentioned in my research as well

I guess the part that I don't understand is:
Is there any problem running a 3 prong appliances (such as gas range or fridge) on a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded?
Also, does a surge suppressor do anything to an electric equipment that does not ground properly?

My understanding is that IF some wire got loose within an electric equipment, and the loose wire is in contact with the metal casing, the casing itself become "hot", and anything (such as a person) that touches the casing will causes the electricity to travel from casing to the person

With a properly grounded receptacle, the ground wire will carry most/all of the electricty from casing to ground, and possibly tripped the circuit breaker

This may sounds like I am playing with fire, but I just want to understand the situation: if there are no wire coming lose within the equipment itself, then there's technically no need for that ground...

Again, appreciate all the feedback thus far

K.K.

Clueless wrote:

Thanks for the feedback

I keep seeing GFCI mentioned in my research as well

I guess the part that I don't understand is:
Is there any problem running a 3 prong appliances (such as gas range or fridge) on a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded?

No. GFCIs are permitted by the NEC on circuits without a ground. Mark
the GFCI with a label included with the GFCI - "No equipment ground".
GFCIs should be tested periodically acording to directions.

Also, does a surge suppressor do anything to an electric equipment that does not ground properly?


Not a good idea - if anything it will make the shock hazard worse.

My understanding is that IF some wire got loose within an electric equipment, and the loose wire is in contact
with the metal casing, the casing itself become "hot", and anything (such as a person) that touches the casing will
causes the electricity to travel from casing to the person


Right except the person needs contact with the "hot" casing and another
point to get a shock. With a GFCI, when that contact is made and a
current through the person reaches 5 mA the GFCI will trip. (Actually
when there is a 5 mA current difference between the hot and neutral by
whatever path.) As Mark said, the GFCI does not manufacture a ground, it
just detects a current difference.

With a properly grounded receptacle, the ground wire will carry most/all of the electricty from casing to ground, and
possibly tripped the circuit breaker

This may sounds like I am playing with fire, but I just want to understand the situation: if there are no wire coming
lose within the equipment itself, then there's technically no need for that ground...

Again, appreciate all the feedback thus far

K.K.

Clueless posted for all of us...

Thanks for the feedback

I keep seeing GFCI mentioned in my research as well

I guess the part that I don't understand is:
Is there any problem running a 3 prong appliances (such as gas range or fridge) on a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded?
Also, does a surge suppressor do anything to an electric equipment that does not ground properly?

My understanding is that IF some wire got loose within an electric equipment, and the loose wire is in contact with the metal casing, the casing itself become "hot", and anything (such as a person) that touches the casing will causes the electricity to travel from casing to the person

With a properly grounded receptacle, the ground wire will carry most/all of the electricty from casing to ground, and possibly tripped the circuit breaker

This may sounds like I am playing with fire, but I just want to understand the situation: if there are no wire coming lose within the equipment itself, then there's technically no need for that ground...

Again, appreciate all the feedback thus far

K.K.


Google is broken at your house? This has been addressed SO MANY times.
--
Tekkie "There's no such thing as a tool I don't need."

Bud-- wrote:
Clueless wrote:

Thanks for the feedback

I keep seeing GFCI mentioned in my research as well

I guess the part that I don't understand is:
Is there any problem running a 3 prong appliances (such as gas range or fridge) on a GFCI receptacle that is not grounded?

No. GFCIs are permitted by the NEC on circuits without a ground. Mark
the GFCI with a label included with the GFCI - "No equipment ground".
GFCIs should be tested periodically acording to directions.

Also, does a surge suppressor do anything to an electric equipment that does not ground properly?


Not a good idea - if anything it will make the shock hazard worse.

My understanding is that IF some wire got loose within an electric equipment, and the loose wire is in contact
with the metal casing, the casing itself become "hot", and anything (such as a person) that touches the casing will
causes the electricity to travel from casing to the person


Right except the person needs contact with the "hot" casing and another
point to get a shock. With a GFCI, when that contact is made and a
current through the person reaches 5 mA the GFCI will trip. (Actually
when there is a 5 mA current difference between the hot and neutral by
whatever path.) As Mark said, the GFCI does not manufacture a ground, it
just detects a current difference.

Is what you are talking about what you see in newer bathrooms where if
it trips you press the reset button?

The OP stated that this was to avoid using grounds in the kitchen for
such things including the refrigerator. It doesn't seem practical to me
to have something where everytime it tripped, you would have to pull
out the refrigerator to get to the outlet behind it! Am I missing
something or did everyone just miss that these would be hard to reach
outlets with heavy appliances?

--
John Ross

On 12 Sep 2006 04:36:00 GMT, Clueless wrote:

I know someone whose kitchen's wall outlet/receptacle has 3 prong connector.
However, tester show that they are not grounded.


Might be GFCI protected, so check for one.

Also, when it comes to electricity, only trained personel are allowed
to work on energized equipment, so getting an electrician sounds like
a good idea.

later,

tom @ www.CarFleaMarket.com