First try:

Behr Wood-Toned Weather Proofer Wood Sealer & Finish. As per the
documentation ON THE CAN I prepared the deck (8 years old previously
untreated except for the pressure treating) using a deck wash & then
applied the Behr.

Failure! The Behr came off in about a year. My feeling is that putting
an the instruction on the can saying "can apply to damp/dry" wood and
to just "wipe standing water" first is very poor advice indeed. Stain
effectiveness to predicated on its ability to soak into the wood - if
moisture is already IN the wood, then this can only inhibit the ability
of the wood to soak up the stain.

Here's to problem - the stain came off the horizontal surfaces, NOT the
vertical surfaces. This is actually bad, because you can't easily strip
vertical surfaces, therefo your bed is made, you have to keep using
the same stain.

Second try:

Water & a hard bristle brush removed whatever traces of Behr were on
the wood. After 5 days of sunshine, the wood was totally dry, then I
followed this a floor sander. Brushed on the BEHR (no choice really).
Home Depot guy suggested multiple coats, so I called Behr & asked them
if I could put on the next coat ~ 12 hours after the first, and, as you
my guess, Behr advised against a second coat. Said the product is made
to soak into the wood & not to put a film on top. I think this is a
load of crap - it penetrates a bit, but it certainly leaves a film that
can strip off.

Question:

I sanded & stained three of the boards "early" about a month ago & have
noticed that already water doesn't bead in spots - seems the water is
being soaked in. I was thinking multiple coats would be better to keep
water from penetrating the wood & compromising it. What everyone else
think - more coats, or do as Behr says?

Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

"Paul" wrote in message

Failure! The Behr came off in about a year. My feeling is that putting
an the instruction on the can saying "can apply to damp/dry" wood and
to just "wipe standing water" first is very poor advice indeed. Stain
effectiveness to predicated on its ability to soak into the wood - if
moisture is already IN the wood, then this can only inhibit the ability
of the wood to soak up the stain.

Maybe not. If the wood is dry, how deep will a coat of stain penetrate?
Not much. If the wood is wet, capillary action may actaully help it
penetrate a bit more.


Here's to problem - the stain came off the horizontal surfaces, NOT the
vertical surfaces. This is actually bad, because you can't easily strip
vertical surfaces, therefo your bed is made, you have to keep using
the same stain.

Very common with most any deck stain. The rain, sun and traffic knocks the
hell out of stain very fast on the horizontal. Iv'e tried a few different
brands and on the horizontal, they are all crap.


Second try:

Behr advised against a second coat. Said the product is made
to soak into the wood & not to put a film on top. I think this is a
load of crap - it penetrates a bit, but it certainly leaves a film that
can strip off.


They gave you sound advice. Yes, it will soak in and yes, you can put a thin
coat on top, but that thin film will not adhere very well to the previous
coat and it will not last any longer. Again, this is true of most any
brand.



Question:

I sanded & stained three of the boards "early" about a month ago & have
noticed that already water doesn't bead in spots - seems the water is
being soaked in. I was thinking multiple coats would be better to keep
water from penetrating the wood & compromising it. What everyone else
think - more coats, or do as Behr says?

I've used Cabot, Olympic, Sikkens. More coats is a waste of time. The
people at Behr know what they are talking about.



Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

My next deck will not be pressure treated. It will be mahogany or ipe and
will be coated with Penofin oil. I have a few pieces of furniture I've
built from mahogany and Spanish cedar and they still look fantastic. You can
see a couple of them on my web page. Cost is higher, but quite a huge
difference in appearance.

--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Paul" wrote in message
oups.com...
Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

I personally have gone with Cabot, after reading a positive review in
Consumer Reports. Seems like quality stuff. However they also advise 1
coat. Why, I can't fathom. The stuff is really something more along the
lines of a stain/polyurethane blend. I don't say that to imply it IS, just
that it behaves that way. Two coats can be better than one, especially if
you see some areas where a hard film didn't form on top (it all soaked into
the wood and it looks matte that reveals the wood grain, rather than having
sheen.)

I used Cabot and thought it sucked. And how do you remove it to recoat? I
think you are better off with semi transparent and just do it every year.


"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Paul" wrote in message
oups.com...
Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

I personally have gone with Cabot, after reading a positive review in
Consumer Reports. Seems like quality stuff. However they also advise 1
coat. Why, I can't fathom. The stuff is really something more along the
lines of a stain/polyurethane blend. I don't say that to imply it IS,
just that it behaves that way. Two coats can be better than one,
especially if you see some areas where a hard film didn't form on top (it
all soaked into the wood and it looks matte that reveals the wood grain,
rather than having sheen.)

I learned my lesson tring to stain pressure treated wood .. I just
don't .. instead I let it turn gray looks fine and it all rots out from
the bottom up here in the north east US anyway... about 5 yrs. it all
turns to crap anyway.
jeffc wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
oups.com...
Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

I personally have gone with Cabot, after reading a positive review in
Consumer Reports. Seems like quality stuff. However they also advise 1
coat. Why, I can't fathom. The stuff is really something more along the
lines of a stain/polyurethane blend. I don't say that to imply it IS, just
that it behaves that way. Two coats can be better than one, especially if
you see some areas where a hard film didn't form on top (it all soaked into
the wood and it looks matte that reveals the wood grain, rather than having
sheen.)

I put the 2nd coat on today, screw the expert advice. Basically I've
already tried one coat & it failed, I believe because water could still
get beneath it, so I'm trying two coats to get a more waterproof
surface.

Part of the problem (beside Behr sucking that is) is my deck is 10
years old, so there were some cracks in the boards that remained after
sanding them down that were not well sealed by one coat. I think they
admited the water that ultimately unseated the stain.

What's best for a new deck may not be best for an older one like mine.
Colour's a little dark now, but we'll see.

jeffc wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
oups.com...
Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

I personally have gone with Cabot, after reading a positive review in
Consumer Reports. Seems like quality stuff. However they also advise 1
coat. Why, I can't fathom. The stuff is really something more along the
lines of a stain/polyurethane blend. I don't say that to imply it IS, just
that it behaves that way. Two coats can be better than one, especially if
you see some areas where a hard film didn't form on top (it all soaked into
the wood and it looks matte that reveals the wood grain, rather than having
sheen.)

"Paul" wrote in message

Part of the problem (beside Behr sucking that is) is my deck is 10
years old, so there were some cracks in the boards that remained after
sanding them down that were not well sealed by one coat. I think they
admited the water that ultimately unseated the stain.

And all sorts of dirt, oxidation and who knows what else. If the deck is
crap, stain is not going to fix it.

Looks pretty darn good right now.

I don't believe in todays attitude of "throw it out and buy another" -
this is environmentally unfriendly. I'll fix my deck, my appliances
(until energy efficienies of new appliances dictate otherwise) and
other odd's & ends - even if financially it would be better for me to
put in an extra hour at work then buy another.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

And all sorts of dirt, oxidation and who knows what else. If the deck is
crap, stain is not going to fix it.

The guy who put in my deck did not make sure all the deck boards crown
was up, so many cup, hold water and the stain failed. Oil stain on a
deck seems the most logical it should penetrate more.

jeffc wrote:

I personally have gone with Cabot, after reading a positive review in
Consumer Reports. Seems like quality stuff. However they also advise 1
coat. Why, I can't fathom. The stuff is really something more along the
lines of a stain/polyurethane blend. I don't say that to imply it IS, just
that it behaves that way. Two coats can be better than one, especially if
you see some areas where a hard film didn't form on top (it all soaked into
the wood and it looks matte that reveals the wood grain, rather than having
sheen.)

Yeah, I bought a gallon of Cabot semi-solid to play around with this
summer after seeing the Consumer Reports article.

I was hoping I could use this stain instead of paint to refinish
portions of my painted porch where keeping a coat of paint intact has
been a real problem. But when I stained a sample board, the color
didn't look at all like the sample chip in the store; so I won't be
doing that.

I also noticed the "one coat only" admonition on the label, and so I
called the Cabot tech support. I told the tech person that I had
already applied two coats, and was that really a problem. She said
yes. I asked why and she said the product is not intended to form a
surface film - it does not form a durable film. If you apply a second
coat, it cannot penetrate the first coat, so it just lays on top and
cures there - but it does not form a durable film.

I know this is not recommended, but for grins I tried applying a high
quality latex acrylic porch floor paint over a Cabot-stained board, and
I used it for one of the exterior stair treads. It will be
interesting to see how it holds up (or not). The thought was that the
stain would waterproof the board to keep rainwater and snow and other
moisture from getting into the wood via fine cracks and imperfections
in the wood, and the latex topcoat is just there for color match.

BTW, when you say that Cabot stain "behaves like a stain/polyurethane
blend" what did you mean by that? What characteristic behavior were
you observing? (I'm not that familiar with polyurethane).

"Ether Jones" wrote in message
oups.com...

I also noticed the "one coat only" admonition on the label, and so I
called the Cabot tech support. I told the tech person that I had
already applied two coats, and was that really a problem. She said
yes. I asked why and she said the product is not intended to form a
surface film - it does not form a durable film. If you apply a second
coat, it cannot penetrate the first coat, so it just lays on top and
cures there - but it does not form a durable film.

BTW, when you say that Cabot stain "behaves like a stain/polyurethane
blend" what did you mean by that? What characteristic behavior were
you observing? (I'm not that familiar with polyurethane).

Well, what I meant was pretty much the opposite of what the Cabot tech told
you. It *did* seem to form a durable film. Now I'm pretty confused. I
understand what the tech meant, but after putting that stuff on my porch, it
looks very much like a coat of polyurethane had been applied. (Polyurethane
is basically a modern version of varnish.) It had a satin sheen. I did
notice that the surface had a "greasy" look and feel for about a week. I
chalked that up to slow drying/curing time due to very high humidity in the
area at the time. Seems hard and solid now. Definitely not just a stain
(like you'd get with plain MinWax stain, for example).

jeffc wrote:
"Ether Jones" wrote in message
oups.com...

I also noticed the "one coat only" admonition on the label, and so I
called the Cabot tech support. I told the tech person that I had
already applied two coats, and was that really a problem. She said
yes. I asked why and she said the product is not intended to form a
surface film - it does not form a durable film. If you apply a second
coat, it cannot penetrate the first coat, so it just lays on top and
cures there - but it does not form a durable film.

BTW, when you say that Cabot stain "behaves like a stain/polyurethane
blend" what did you mean by that? What characteristic behavior were
you observing? (I'm not that familiar with polyurethane).

Well, what I meant was pretty much the opposite of what the Cabot tech told
you. It *did* seem to form a durable film. Now I'm pretty confused. I
understand what the tech meant, but after putting that stuff on my porch, it
looks very much like a coat of polyurethane had been applied. (Polyurethane
is basically a modern version of varnish.) It had a satin sheen. I did
notice that the surface had a "greasy" look and feel for about a week. I
chalked that up to slow drying/curing time due to very high humidity in the
area at the time. Seems hard and solid now. Definitely not just a stain
(like you'd get with plain MinWax stain, for example).

Yeah, my experience was more similar to yours and less in line with
what I was told by the Cabot tech person.

I applied 2 coats of Cabot semi-solid stain to a couple of boards and
let them dry in my garage for a week. After the first day, on sunny
days I would prop them up outdoors against the sunny side of the
garage.

After about a week I could rub them hard with my fingers and not get
any trace of color on them.

As I said in the previous post, I then applied a couple of coats of
porch and floor latex over the Cabot stain, and then used these boards
for my porch step treads.

If they fail, they fail. If not, then I've finally found a way to keep
moisture out of the boards so they will hold a coat of paint.

hmmm, an interesting thought....crown up.....I guess this means the
side of the board that was nearest to the center of the tree should
face upwards, then, as the board ages it will tend to make a convex (
upside down bowl) shape - have I got that right, backwards or not even
close?

m Ransley wrote:
The guy who put in my deck did not make sure all the deck boards crown
was up, so many cup, hold water and the stain failed. Oil stain on a
deck seems the most logical it should penetrate more.

Paul wrote:
hmmm, an interesting thought....crown up.....I guess this means the
side of the board that was nearest to the center of the tree should
face upwards, then, as the board ages it will tend to make a convex (
upside down bowl) shape - have I got that right, backwards or not even
close?


Read these links:

http://homerepair.about.com/od/yarda...ck_board_3.htm

http://homerepair.about.com/od/yarda...ck_board_4.htm

Paul,

We've been using Flood CWF-UV for our decks and our cedar fence for
several years. We've been really happy with the results - it seems to
wear off reasonably evenly, we just powerwash and retreat the fence
every 3 years or so, and the deck every other year.

The wood does need to be totally dry and you should not apply in direct
sunlight on a very hot day, though it does require sunlight to cure
(and so we just changed our plans to use it on a screened in pool house
floor, in favor of Penofin oil) but those seems to be restrictions
common with most of the deck treatments we've researched.

One thing we discovered - though the Flood web site recommended using
Seasonite on our fence the first year, and then Dekswoods to wash,
followed by treatment with CWF-UV, we would NOT do that next time
around. We treated the back of 1 of the fence sections with CWF-UV
shortly after it was installed, and it is hands-down, the best looking
section of the fence. So next time we use CWF-UV out of the shoot.

Also, they recommend 2 coats, but the second MUST be applied after the
first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet. This is pretty easy to
do - we just do 2 sections of the deck or fence, and go back and do the
second coat on the first section, and so on.

Thought I'd mention this since no one else brought up using CWF-UV.

Lauri


Paul wrote:
First try:

Behr Wood-Toned Weather Proofer Wood Sealer & Finish. As per the
documentation ON THE CAN I prepared the deck (8 years old previously
untreated except for the pressure treating) using a deck wash & then
applied the Behr.

Failure! The Behr came off in about a year. My feeling is that putting
an the instruction on the can saying "can apply to damp/dry" wood and
to just "wipe standing water" first is very poor advice indeed. Stain
effectiveness to predicated on its ability to soak into the wood - if
moisture is already IN the wood, then this can only inhibit the ability
of the wood to soak up the stain.

Here's to problem - the stain came off the horizontal surfaces, NOT the
vertical surfaces. This is actually bad, because you can't easily strip
vertical surfaces, therefo your bed is made, you have to keep using
the same stain.

Second try:

Water & a hard bristle brush removed whatever traces of Behr were on
the wood. After 5 days of sunshine, the wood was totally dry, then I
followed this a floor sander. Brushed on the BEHR (no choice really).
Home Depot guy suggested multiple coats, so I called Behr & asked them
if I could put on the next coat ~ 12 hours after the first, and, as you
my guess, Behr advised against a second coat. Said the product is made
to soak into the wood & not to put a film on top. I think this is a
load of crap - it penetrates a bit, but it certainly leaves a film that
can strip off.

Question:

I sanded & stained three of the boards "early" about a month ago & have
noticed that already water doesn't bead in spots - seems the water is
being soaked in. I was thinking multiple coats would be better to keep
water from penetrating the wood & compromising it. What everyone else
think - more coats, or do as Behr says?

Advice:

Obviously I don't think much of Behr. If I were starting out, I
wouldn't use stain at all. I'd advise some kind of penetrating oil -
not much advice as to which one, but I've used linseed oil on some
planters & they look fantastic. It NEVER flakes & you can just reapply
some whenever you want. On the other hand, if you don't even have a
deck yet, then apparently those new plastic boards last forever.

NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, "Ether Jones"
wrote:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

weaker bond between the 1st and 2nd coat.

On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.


--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.

Makes sense.

But I'm wondering why the same advice doesn't apply to this gallon of
porch and floor latex paint I've been using. They want me to wait a
full 24 hours before applying a second coat. By that time, the stuff
is dry and hard enough to walk on.

On 5 Sep 2006 20:52:00 -0700, "Ether Jones"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.

Makes sense.

But I'm wondering why the same advice doesn't apply to this gallon of
porch and floor latex paint I've been using. They want me to wait a
full 24 hours before applying a second coat. By that time, the stuff
is dry and hard enough to walk on.

It's still not really cured, though, as will be obvious if you
use a white primer and a colored topcoat... It takes over
a week for the paint to get hard enough to move furniture on.

Goedjn wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 20:52:00 -0700, "Ether Jones"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.

Makes sense.

But I'm wondering why the same advice doesn't apply to this gallon of
porch and floor latex paint I've been using. They want me to wait a
full 24 hours before applying a second coat. By that time, the stuff
is dry and hard enough to walk on.

It's still not really cured, though, as will be obvious if you
use a white primer and a colored topcoat... It takes over
a week for the paint to get hard enough to move furniture on.

I believe you. But why does it require that I wait 24 hours to apply
second coat? In other words, why not 4 hours? or 7 days?

On 6 Sep 2006 09:51:29 -0700, "Ether Jones"
wrote:


Goedjn wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 20:52:00 -0700, "Ether Jones"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:
On 5 Sep 2006 15:59:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


NJLauri wrote:

Also, they recommend 2 coats [of CWF-UV], but the second MUST be applied
after the first coat soaks in, but while it is still wet.

Do you have any idea _why_?

What happens if you apply the second coat after the first has dried?

Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.

Makes sense.

But I'm wondering why the same advice doesn't apply to this gallon of
porch and floor latex paint I've been using. They want me to wait a
full 24 hours before applying a second coat. By that time, the stuff
is dry and hard enough to walk on.

It's still not really cured, though, as will be obvious if you
use a white primer and a colored topcoat... It takes over
a week for the paint to get hard enough to move furniture on.

I believe you. But why does it require that I wait 24 hours to apply
second coat? In other words, why not 4 hours? or 7 days?

My GUESS is that if the undercoat is too soft, you'll smear it while
trying to put the overcoat on. You want the primer to cure enough
to stay put, but soft enough to bind to the second coat. And if they
said "wait 4 hours", you *KNOW* you'd be trying to go at 2....

On 5 Sep 2006 20:52:00 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ether
Jones" quickly quoth:


Larry Jaques wrote:
Chemical crosslinking has to happen during a certain curing period or
it doesn't happen.

Makes sense.

But I'm wondering why the same advice doesn't apply to this gallon of
porch and floor latex paint I've been using. They want me to wait a
full 24 hours before applying a second coat. By that time, the stuff
is dry and hard enough to walk on.

Take some chemistry courses, Ether. You obviously have a -need- to
know more about this subject.

Some bonds are crosslinked, others aren't. Latex isn't, I don't
believe.


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