Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

Assuming the mechanics are working properly, sounds like a salt dome has
formed. In humid areas (basement), if too much salt is added to the
machine, the salt at the top of the pile will stick together and form a salt
dome. The salt under that will dissolve but once that is gone the softener
gets only water to cycle with and of course doesn't work. Try pouring very
warm water on the top of the salt and use a broom stick to bust up the salt
until it falls down into the tank. That being said, 110 ppm of hardness is
pretty hard. I used to sell units for Sears and we had a city well in
Chandler, AZ that gave out with 108 ppm. We weren't allowed to sell units
in that area. It is possible to use a softener but you might have to put
more than one softener in line to do the job. As for iron...a softener will
handle some iron but usually not the type of iron that causes the rust
stains in the tubs, sinks and around the fixtures. You may have to add an
iron filter which is kind of like a softener in appearance but uses a
different type of process to remove the iron. Check out the water shop at
Sears.com for more info. (no longer affiliated with Sears in any way, shape
or form) Did the previous owner provide a whole house warranty as a sales
incentive to your Sister. If so might be, calling in a serviceman would be
the way to go.

Tom G.

A couple of suggestions that you might consider.
Step zero, get the manual for the softner.
Read it.
Understand the trouble shooting segments.


Next consider a "whole house" water filter before the softener.
If you are getting solids that clog your sink strainer, then you should
filter the inlet water to prevent clogging internal components in the
softer.

Also, as someone mentioned, the softner isn't working.
It must consume salt to work.

I use the outlet hose from my hot water heater to periodically put
water into the softner.
You can add a bunch of water and ensure that the salt melts.
Be sure you have a drain for any overflow to run into.
Using the heater drain hose gives you warm water and does the periodic
drain of the water heater.

Then force the softner to start a cycle - read your manual on how to do
that.
Then watch to ensure that the water is drawn through the system.
If it is working correctly, you should see water drawn down in the salt
tank.
You may need to shine a light into the brine well where the siphon hose
goes.

If the water isn't drawn in, then you may have a plugged siphon unit or
plugged inlets where the water enters.
You manual may tell you how to clean them.
If you are unlucky, then some of the internal seals may not be sealing.
That would be a lot of work and parts to fix.

If you were "lucky" and the water is drawn down, then your problem may
have been salt bridging. You can reduce the chances of that happening
by only filling the salt tank half full AND by putting a piece of 1
inch PVC pipe about 3 feet long at an angle in the salt. The PVC will
disrupt the lodging and bridging of the salt.

Somewhere in here, I would have the hardness tested to obtain a
hardness in GRAINS reading.
I've not heard of PPM for hardness.
You need to know the hardness to use it to set the softner controls for
hardness and gallons of water used to ensure that recycling occurs at
the correct frequency.

Good luck!
Phil










wrote:
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.


If your test is accurate, you have very low iron so I would think your
discoloration is coming from somewhere else.
Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions as to where. You might take
another sample down to a pool supply place. They'll usually test
for either free or very inexpensively and their tests are decently accurate.
No point tackling something until you're certain of the problem.
Cheers,
cc

"philkryder" wrote in message
oups.com...
Somewhere in here, I would have the hardness tested to obtain a
hardness in GRAINS reading.
I've not heard of PPM for hardness.
You need to know the hardness to use it to set the softner controls for
hardness and gallons of water used to ensure that recycling occurs at
the correct frequency.

Good luck!
Phil
I didn't catch that the OP was talking PPM rather than GRAINS. Makes a
difference...I just assumed GRAINS

Tom G.

Thanks guys,

We don't have the manual for the softener. We can't even find a model
number anywhere. But, I went over to her house today to check it out.
It appears water is flowing through the filer tank as condensation
forms on the surface. I opened the salt tank and dug around. It
appears that under the salt they put in it which was Morton's Rust
Remover Pellens is a rock salt. Not sure what kind but it's the exact
consistency of the salt you put in your driveway, all crushed up. It's
pretty hard packed. I only had to dig down 4" to reach it and it
appears to be solid down to the bottom of the salt tank so it's over
half full of this stuff, I think it might be solid. So my first step
will be to see if we can get that salt out of there.

There used to be a filter that was installed inline for sediment, since
those things would clog about weekly with their water quality. It
appeared to have been removed in favor of the water softener. I guess
there's no point and doing anything else since obviously that salt
isn't going to let that tank fill up.

Do you have to add water yourself to the salt tank or should it do it
on it's own, there's only one line going to the salt tank.

Thanks,
Bill V

Tom G wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

Assuming the mechanics are working properly, sounds like a salt dome has
formed. In humid areas (basement), if too much salt is added to the
machine, the salt at the top of the pile will stick together and form a salt
dome. The salt under that will dissolve but once that is gone the softener
gets only water to cycle with and of course doesn't work. Try pouring very
warm water on the top of the salt and use a broom stick to bust up the salt
until it falls down into the tank. That being said, 110 ppm of hardness is
pretty hard. I used to sell units for Sears and we had a city well in
Chandler, AZ that gave out with 108 ppm. We weren't allowed to sell units
in that area. It is possible to use a softener but you might have to put
more than one softener in line to do the job. As for iron...a softener will
handle some iron but usually not the type of iron that causes the rust
stains in the tubs, sinks and around the fixtures. You may have to add an
iron filter which is kind of like a softener in appearance but uses a
different type of process to remove the iron. Check out the water shop at
Sears.com for more info. (no longer affiliated with Sears in any way, shape
or form) Did the previous owner provide a whole house warranty as a sales
incentive to your Sister. If so might be, calling in a serviceman would be
the way to go.

Tom G.

A website I went to said you can divide the PPM reading for hardness by
17.1 to get the GPG number. So it'd be about 6.4GPG of hardness. But
it's obviously the previous owners didn't take care of the system at
all. I'm of mind that the salt in the salt tank is the original salt.
The bags we have were in the basement already and it wasn't rock salt.


She just doesn't want to get anyone out here until she's sure
something's wrong, which obviously there is. I'll ask her as was
suggested about a whole house warranty.

philkryder wrote:
A couple of suggestions that you might consider.
Step zero, get the manual for the softner.
Read it.
Understand the trouble shooting segments.


Next consider a "whole house" water filter before the softener.
If you are getting solids that clog your sink strainer, then you should
filter the inlet water to prevent clogging internal components in the
softer.

Also, as someone mentioned, the softner isn't working.
It must consume salt to work.

I use the outlet hose from my hot water heater to periodically put
water into the softner.
You can add a bunch of water and ensure that the salt melts.
Be sure you have a drain for any overflow to run into.
Using the heater drain hose gives you warm water and does the periodic
drain of the water heater.

Then force the softner to start a cycle - read your manual on how to do
that.
Then watch to ensure that the water is drawn through the system.
If it is working correctly, you should see water drawn down in the salt
tank.
You may need to shine a light into the brine well where the siphon hose
goes.

If the water isn't drawn in, then you may have a plugged siphon unit or
plugged inlets where the water enters.
You manual may tell you how to clean them.
If you are unlucky, then some of the internal seals may not be sealing.
That would be a lot of work and parts to fix.

If you were "lucky" and the water is drawn down, then your problem may
have been salt bridging. You can reduce the chances of that happening
by only filling the salt tank half full AND by putting a piece of 1
inch PVC pipe about 3 feet long at an angle in the salt. The PVC will
disrupt the lodging and bridging of the salt.

Somewhere in here, I would have the hardness tested to obtain a
hardness in GRAINS reading.
I've not heard of PPM for hardness.
You need to know the hardness to use it to set the softner controls for
hardness and gallons of water used to ensure that recycling occurs at
the correct frequency.

Good luck!
Phil










wrote:
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.



If your test is accurate, you have very low iron so I would think your
discoloration is coming from somewhere else.
Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions as to where. You might take
another sample down to a pool supply place. They'll usually test
for either free or very inexpensively and their tests are decently accurate.
No point tackling something until you're certain of the problem.
Cheers,
cc



A properly working water softener has water in it ALL the time. When
the unit generates brine for backflushing the resin, it floods the salt
tank with water, lets it sit for several minutes, then draws the brine
into the resin and lets it sit again for several minutes. Finally, the
brine is flushed out of the resin with fresh water and the unit goes
back in service.

My suggestion is to dig out almost all of the salt and go to a water
softener service company to buy their Rust Inhibitor salt. The salt
chunks are bigger and are much less susceptable to creating a bridge, or
solid mass. This bridging problem is why most folks are advised to
never have the salt tank more than half full.

Your water softener controller should have a setting on it for manual
regeneration. Turn the dial to that setting and wait. If you do not
detect water flowing into the brine tank within 15 minutes, then the
control head is damaged and may need to be replaced.

I lost a control head once due to a nearby lightning spike that also
produced an enormous spike in water pressure. The resin containment
strainer at the bottom of the pipe extending down from the control head
ruptured and resin went to every water faucet, toilet, washing machine,
etc in the house. Control valves everywhere had to be replaced. I now
have a post water softener filter installed to address this problem.

Talking to a water softener specialist can also make certain that the
resin installed is correct for the water condition.

A whole house filter in front of the water softener helps extend the
life of the resin as silt, mud, salt are trapped by the filter. Even
city water has this problem and 6 months of service will get an
INCREDIBLY ugly looking filter (10 micron).

Just to be clear:
I was advocating a whole house filter - not a whole house warrantee.
It sounds like a whole house filter is needed.


The other post about a filter AFTER the softner is also advised.
I too had a "resin in all the pipes experience."

It was like thick blood coming out of all the faucets.
Scared the kids to death.

I now have a filter after the softener.
I also have a second regulator and run high pressure through the
filters and softner and then re-regulate down to about 60 pounds. -
Very nice and consistent flow.

I was able to clear the pipes by back flooding water some how...
Perhaps through the kitchen sink and draining it out of the water
heater.
What a mess.
I can't believe I was able to clear the pipes....

----------
Regarding the rust, I too tend to think it is "something else".
We had a plumber do some work and later started to get rust in one tub.
I was sure that he had used a piece of black pipe, but he was sure that
he hadn't and had all sorts of things to blame it on.

I had the plumbing R&R'd about year later by someone else to install a
shower . The rust was all caused by a 1 inch by 3/4 black pipe nipple.
There rest of our house in copper or brass and there is much
electrolytic action between those elements to the detriment of the
iron.

Check you pipes.


----- sad news ----


I tend to think that at this point any effort you spend on this
softener is a waste.


You used to have a filter, but it clogged SO MUCH that it was
removed????
Where would that gunk have gone???? (into the ?softer???? YES!)

Get a coarse (25 TO 50 MICRONS) filter and leave it on.
Get a big one.
Change it as needed.
Are you sure you are seeing IRON and not SAND????


You don't have a manual.
You can't find a serial number.
Can you find the brand to go to the web site?
Is it a sears?

If you have some free time and
If you do wish to continue... (and I advise again continuing except as
an educational experience for you)....

The salt need not be removed.
As I said, A hose from the hot water drain will make all the brine that
you need.
It will melt the rock salt just fine.

You can force recycles by moving the clock or digital timer.
Some units have a "recycle now" button.

Often there is a "screen" in the softner siphon inlet.
It is likely clogged base on the other data you provided.


You asked if you "have to add water" -
Normally you do not.
A float control and timer limit the amount of water added.
BUT -
since you don't know if you have brine, then you should fill salt tank
until you see water flowing out the overflow drain from the salt brine
tank.
Then you will know you have water and brine.
Fill from the top with hot water.

Then mark the height and see if water draws down when cycling.
I doubt if it will.
At that point you will need to clean the siphon inlet and screens.

---

You have referred to condensation twice.
You have referred to a "filler tank".
Are you referring to the SALT brine tank or the pressurized RESIN
tank?

It doesn't really matter where the condensation is.
That is because the condensation is ONLY indicating that the cold flush
and clean water is flowing.
****It doesn't tell you about the brine.****
It doesn't tell you if you have brine.
It doesn't tell you if the brine is being siphoned through the resin
bed.
You MUST observe it being drawn down in the tank to know.


It will be fun if you enjoy this sort of thing...
But download some kind of a manual to find the theory.

Try Sears.com for a manual - anything well help you get a handle on the
process.

Good luck!
Phil


wrote:
Thanks guys,

We don't have the manual for the softener. We can't even find a model
number anywhere. But, I went over to her house today to check it out.
It appears water is flowing through the filer tank as condensation
forms on the surface. I opened the salt tank and dug around. It
appears that under the salt they put in it which was Morton's Rust
Remover Pellens is a rock salt. Not sure what kind but it's the exact
consistency of the salt you put in your driveway, all crushed up. It's
pretty hard packed. I only had to dig down 4" to reach it and it
appears to be solid down to the bottom of the salt tank so it's over
half full of this stuff, I think it might be solid. So my first step
will be to see if we can get that salt out of there.

There used to be a filter that was installed inline for sediment, since
those things would clog about weekly with their water quality. It
appeared to have been removed in favor of the water softener. I guess
there's no point and doing anything else since obviously that salt
isn't going to let that tank fill up.

Do you have to add water yourself to the salt tank or should it do it
on it's own, there's only one line going to the salt tank.

Thanks,
Bill V

Tom G wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

My sister bought a new home recently. Her well was tested before it
was closed. It was found to have a Ph of 6.6, Hardness of 110ppm, Iron
level of 0.88ppm. I do not remember the rest of the numbers. But the
water comes out with a brownish color and cloudy. It stains the tub
and toilet. Even replaced the hose to the rinser on the sink because
it was clogged.

The problem is that they have a water softening system. It's either
not working or it's not effective. The salt level never goes down,
according to them they haven't added salt yet since they moved in
because the level never dropped. I'm not sure how the system pulls
salt from the salt tank. But it's never wet inside. The main tank for
it is clearly running, it gets condensation on it from water running
through it. They don't know if it was maintained well or not. But
we're trying to figure out if it's even working right. If it needs to
be replaced, or was never the right thing that the past owners
installed in the first place. What could be wrong, what could they do
to get rid of the rust color? Any help would be appreciated. I can
try and supply any additional info if necessary.

Thanks,
Bill V.

Assuming the mechanics are working properly, sounds like a salt dome has
formed. In humid areas (basement), if too much salt is added to the
machine, the salt at the top of the pile will stick together and form a salt
dome. The salt under that will dissolve but once that is gone the softener
gets only water to cycle with and of course doesn't work. Try pouring very
warm water on the top of the salt and use a broom stick to bust up the salt
until it falls down into the tank. That being said, 110 ppm of hardness is
pretty hard. I used to sell units for Sears and we had a city well in
Chandler, AZ that gave out with 108 ppm. We weren't allowed to sell units
in that area. It is possible to use a softener but you might have to put
more than one softener in line to do the job. As for iron...a softener will
handle some iron but usually not the type of iron that causes the rust
stains in the tubs, sinks and around the fixtures. You may have to add an
iron filter which is kind of like a softener in appearance but uses a
different type of process to remove the iron. Check out the water shop at
Sears.com for more info. (no longer affiliated with Sears in any way, shape
or form) Did the previous owner provide a whole house warranty as a sales
incentive to your Sister. If so might be, calling in a serviceman would be
the way to go.

Tom G.

philkryder wrote:
Just to be clear:
I was advocating a whole house filter - not a whole house warrantee.
It sounds like a whole house filter is needed.


The other post about a filter AFTER the softner is also advised.
I too had a "resin in all the pipes experience."

It was like thick blood coming out of all the faucets.
Scared the kids to death.

I now have a filter after the softener.
I also have a second regulator and run high pressure through the
filters and softner and then re-regulate down to about 60 pounds. -
Very nice and consistent flow.

I was able to clear the pipes by back flooding water some how...
Perhaps through the kitchen sink and draining it out of the water
heater.
What a mess.
I can't believe I was able to clear the pipes....

No, you missed the first post where I said they recently bought this
house. This was the state of things at the time. They didn't do
anything to it when they bought it. It's clear that the softener
hasn't been working since they moved in. Her husband always insisted
things were fine. It's worth a shot to see if it's fixable. The salt
HAS to be removed. It would take a long time to get that salt out,
it's like all formed into a single block and fills half the tank, you
can't even dig through it. I don't see how water could get inside the
tank at all. It's far faster to just get it out and ditch it. They
have plenty of extra salt to refill it at least halfway. Then if it
still doesn't work, they'll get someone in. We have no idea how long
it's been left alone like this.


----------
Regarding the rust, I too tend to think it is "something else".
We had a plumber do some work and later started to get rust in one tub.
I was sure that he had used a piece of black pipe, but he was sure that
he hadn't and had all sorts of things to blame it on.

I had the plumbing R&R'd about year later by someone else to install a
shower . The rust was all caused by a 1 inch by 3/4 black pipe nipple.
There rest of our house in copper or brass and there is much
electrolytic action between those elements to the detriment of the
iron.

Check you pipes.

Whatever it is, it's coming from the well. The water, as I said, had
been tested before they moved in stright from the well. It was very
dark rusted colored then, somehow most of that is still getting
removed.



----- sad news ----


I tend to think that at this point any effort you spend on this
softener is a waste.


It's either that or completely replacing it. There are some things we
can do that would have to be done anyway before they call in a
professional. What needs to be done could be of any severity. From
just cleaning the brine tank, bringing someone in to look and fix it,
to having to repace it with something that should've been installed in
the first place.


You used to have a filter, but it clogged SO MUCH that it was
removed????
Where would that gunk have gone???? (into the ?softer???? YES!)

The whole house filter that was removed was likely at the discression
of the company that installed the softener. Why they decided that,
we'll never know. It would be better to have left it in. The previous
owners could have complained they didn't want to change the filter
cartridge and demanded it. We can't change that choice they made at
this time.


Get a coarse (25 TO 50 MICRONS) filter and leave it on.
Get a big one.
Change it as needed.
Are you sure you are seeing IRON and not SAND????


I'm pretty sure it's not sand. A lot of people get iron like this
around this part of the state. My grandparent's had it, all they had
was a whole house filter, which needed to be replaced almost weekly,
two weeks was pushing it, three weeks, the water pressure would drop.


You don't have a manual.
You can't find a serial number.
Can you find the brand to go to the web site?
Is it a sears?

It's as if it was never branded at all, just a plain blue tank.


If you have some free time and
If you do wish to continue... (and I advise again continuing except as
an educational experience for you)....

The salt need not be removed.
As I said, A hose from the hot water drain will make all the brine that
you need.
It will melt the rock salt just fine.

All that would happen is the water would sit on top of the salt. That
salt is pretty solid and about two feet thick. They have a very moist
basement so it looks like that all solidified into one large block.


You can force recycles by moving the clock or digital timer.
Some units have a "recycle now" button.

Often there is a "screen" in the softner siphon inlet.
It is likely clogged base on the other data you provided.


You asked if you "have to add water" -
Normally you do not.
A float control and timer limit the amount of water added.
BUT -
since you don't know if you have brine, then you should fill salt tank
until you see water flowing out the overflow drain from the salt brine
tank.
Then you will know you have water and brine.
Fill from the top with hot water.

Then mark the height and see if water draws down when cycling.
I doubt if it will.
At that point you will need to clean the siphon inlet and screens.

---

You have referred to condensation twice.
You have referred to a "filler tank".
Are you referring to the SALT brine tank or the pressurized RESIN
tank?

Resin tank.


It doesn't really matter where the condensation is.
That is because the condensation is ONLY indicating that the cold flush
and clean water is flowing.
****It doesn't tell you about the brine.****
It doesn't tell you if you have brine.
It doesn't tell you if the brine is being siphoned through the resin
bed.
You MUST observe it being drawn down in the tank to know.

The only reason I said that was to show that water was definitely going
into the resin tank.



It will be fun if you enjoy this sort of thing...
But download some kind of a manual to find the theory.

Try Sears.com for a manual - anything well help you get a handle on the
process.

Good luck!
Phil

Again, to be clear I was advocating whole house filters - not
warrantees -

The recommendation had nothing to do with how recently the house was
purchased but rather the condition of the water as you reported it.

Have you figured out how to force a regeneration cycle?
That will be needed whatever you do.



All that would happen is the water would sit on top of the salt. That
salt is pretty solid and about two feet thick. They have a very moist
basement so it looks like that all solidified into one large block.

You seem to firmly believe that - but my experience is quite different.
Add the hot water.
I'm sure it will form brine and penetrate the salt.
At worst, you will be where you are now.
Just start running hot water on top of that salt.

Start the regen cycle.
Watch for it siphoning.

If you are correct and the water just sits on top of the salt, then you
can add water in through the brine well where the siphon line goes.
That will put water BELOW the salt. Either way you can get water into
the tank.

And then, you can watch to see if it is siphoned out during the regen
cycle.
I'm guessing it will not be siphoned.

Resin tank.
The only reason I said that was to show that water was definitely going
into the resin tank.

Yes, of course, all the water consumed by the home must pass through
the resin tank as it passes through the softner.
That process is what exposes the water to the ionized resin.
But that doesn't mean that brine water is being siphoned during the
regen cycle.
If the iron was so bad that it clogged the sink hose, then it very
likely clogged the siphon jets and other small passages in the
softener.

You can check for siphoning whether or not the the salt is in the tank.
All you need to do is look into the brine well where the single line
goes and see if the water is drawn down during the regen cycle.

Some other things.
Have you checked the drain hose that is used during backflush and
brining?
kinks in that hose, or having it too high can reduce siphoning.

Have you checked that the unit is actually doing regen cycling?

Good luck!
Phil







If you are fortunate and it does siphon, then the filter before the
softener is still a wise choice.
And, so is one after the softner.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Robert Gammon wrote:

I would, but I'm just getting information for other people in this
case. My sister knows less about this stuff than I do. I just never
done anything with a water softener before. I'll see if she wants to
test it again. The test I spoke of was in November. We would but
there's no point in continuing until we try what we wanted to do. I'm
not kidding when I say it's like someone put a big salt lick the exact
size and shape of the brine tank in it. I don't see how even if it was
working the water could get inside. If anything it saves the guy time
when he comes to fix it. Personally I would tell them to get someone
to come and figure out all the true problems and put in even better
equipment. The water coming stright from the well was very brown
colored. But I wasn't there so I don't know the severity. But it
still looks more like this
http://static.flickr.com/27/99857025_c5aa167ec3_m.jpg than anything.
Not quite that drastic but you can see the brown in it as it flows. If
you drink more than a 5 or 6 oz of it without it having been run
through a filter you get the runs.


I'm no expert but anything that's messing with your digestive tract demands
a bit more attention, and quickly. You should at least get the water
tested for coliforms. If the test is positive, then you'll need to go with
some sort of disinfecting solution. You could install a chlorine injector
and a carbon filter to then take the chlorine/sediment out so the water
going into the house is chlorine free but clean. Unfortunately with water
situations, you really can't give advice until you know all the facts and
only testing will give those. I found this site to be somewhat helpful:
www.pwgazette.com Ultimately they're selling stuff but I just finished
dealing with them on my own well situation and found them to be pretty
helpful (call, don't email...very slow to return email's). They'll test
your water for free (I'd use their test to back up whatever other tests you
get....they're out to make money at the end of the day). Anyway, good
luck with it. It sounds like you have a few things going on and may have to
attack it with a few different options.
Cheers,
cc

How's it going?

wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

If your test is accurate, you have very low iron so I would think your
discoloration is coming from somewhere else.
Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions as to where. You might take
another sample down to a pool supply place. They'll usually test
for either free or very inexpensively and their tests are decently accurate.
No point tackling something until you're certain of the problem.
Cheers,
cc

I would, but I'm just getting information for other people in this
case. My sister knows less about this stuff than I do. I just never
done anything with a water softener before. I'll see if she wants to
test it again. The test I spoke of was in November. We would but
there's no point in continuing until we try what we wanted to do. I'm
not kidding when I say it's like someone put a big salt lick the exact
size and shape of the brine tank in it. I don't see how even if it was
working the water could get inside. If anything it saves the guy time
when he comes to fix it. Personally I would tell them to get someone
to come and figure out all the true problems and put in even better
equipment. The water coming stright from the well was very brown
colored. But I wasn't there so I don't know the severity. But it
still looks more like this
http://static.flickr.com/27/99857025_c5aa167ec3_m.jpg than anything.
Not quite that drastic but you can see the brown in it as it flows. If
you drink more than a 5 or 6 oz of it without it having been run
through a filter you get the runs.




A properly working water softener has water in it ALL the time. When
the unit generates brine for backflushing the resin, it floods the salt
tank with water, lets it sit for several minutes, then draws the brine
into the resin and lets it sit again for several minutes. Finally, the
brine is flushed out of the resin with fresh water and the unit goes
back in service.

My suggestion is to dig out almost all of the salt and go to a water
softener service company to buy their Rust Inhibitor salt. The salt
chunks are bigger and are much less susceptable to creating a bridge, or
solid mass. This bridging problem is why most folks are advised to
never have the salt tank more than half full.

This is the current plan I came up with just to start. No point in
spending money on a house call when we know for sure the brine tank is
screwed up anyhow. They put Morton's Rust Remover Pellens over the big
block of rock salt back in November. Removing the salt is the first
step because we have no idea what's under there. There could be a clog
of salt where the water enter, the actual salt could be blocking where
the water comes in.

The funny part is they said there were bags of Morton's System Saver
next to the tank when they moved in. They were obviously never used.


Your water softener controller should have a setting on it for manual
regeneration. Turn the dial to that setting and wait. If you do not
detect water flowing into the brine tank within 15 minutes, then the
control head is damaged and may need to be replaced.

I tried to do this just to figure it out, it wouldn't work. By that I
mean the panel has instructions of how to set the regen cycle and start
a regen cycle manually. You push a red button and turn it. The button
pushes in but won't turn.


I lost a control head once due to a nearby lightning spike that also
produced an enormous spike in water pressure. The resin containment
strainer at the bottom of the pipe extending down from the control head
ruptured and resin went to every water faucet, toilet, washing machine,
etc in the house. Control valves everywhere had to be replaced. I now
have a post water softener filter installed to address this problem.

Talking to a water softener specialist can also make certain that the
resin installed is correct for the water condition.

A whole house filter in front of the water softener helps extend the
life of the resin as silt, mud, salt are trapped by the filter. Even
city water has this problem and 6 months of service will get an
INCREDIBLY ugly looking filter (10 micron).