"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw away) and remove exhaust.

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
news
Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily
we have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?




Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated
damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt
to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after
release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply
of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.


I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented
thru PVC and a draft inducer fan Would this furnace have a safety shutoff.

Most likely. The exhaust inducer has a pressure switch to monitor performance
and also shut down the furnace if there is an exhaust problem. The computer in
the furnace will attempt to check again (without lighting the burners if it
fails) to clear the fault. If not, an error code is stored.

"Pete C." wrote:

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.

Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?

There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not
generally used.

They are just about always used on a modern efficient (greater than 90% AFUE)
furnace that has direct vent.

The much more common CO detector would detect such
conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Everyone with an attached garage or interior combustion device should have CO
detectors, at least on every level. They aren't expensive and some states are now
mandating them, just like smoke detectors.



Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace
and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to
momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a
sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give
false alarms.

Wind gusts? Back drafts? Yikes! Isn't your oil burner using sealed combustion
to prevent inside air from ever touching the combustion chamber of the furnace?
It would be a shame for the furnace to consume heated house air.

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:41:41 -0400, John wrote:




"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw away) and remove exhaust.

Where, pray tell, does the exhaust go? It doesn't matter if it's a 1"
rubber hose; it's still a chimney if it carries exhaust.

"Pete C." wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.


With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

The price differences between oil suppliers are negligible, as they are all buying
their oil in the same local market from the same common carriers, unless your oil
company also has a terminal to import the middle east crude and refine it. Or
some distributors are jacking up the price. Last year, oil companies jacked up
prices for non contract customers in a hurry and they went down very slowly. Our
NG prices rised a little a few months later and then tapered back significantly
mid way through the winter. Our gas service is still cheaper than the "cheap" oil
companies, and our furnace is a lot more cleaner burning and efficient too.

If you are against regulated monopolies, than your argument is also the same for
opposing electricity service (and maybe water too).




I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Hope you're around to do that and not on vacation. Oh by the way, if we do have a
power failure, we can still take lots of hot showers and cook on our stove
indefinitely.

Oil is a great choice if you have no natural gas service available and your
climate is too cold for heat pumps.

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:
I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable.

I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service.

The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light.

The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY
friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the
pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15
minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot
buildup and roughly check the combustion.


You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who
can't?

The typical homeowner *should* be able to do it, however we have as a
whole lost more and more skills over the years. It used to be that the
bulk of people changed the oil in their cars themselves, now most don't
even know how to open the hood, much less check the oil.

The typical homeowner *should* be screwing around with her oil burner innards?
Yeesh.



Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready
with another nozzle when it craps out?

If you're having an annual service done they get replaced well before
they would crap out unless you are buying the low grade, nearly crude
fuel oil they run cargo ships on. With most any #2 fuel oil the nozzles
and filters can easily last several years without failure so annual
replacement keeps them well within their life expectancy.


Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.

Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't
need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a
service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac
or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on
since a service call every few years is pretty cheap.

I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner
service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of
what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner.

And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class
too? Or just use gas and avoid all this?

I'm suggesting that the typical homeowner should have at least *some*
knowledge of those hulking monsters in their basement, not total
ignorance. If you want to be ignorant you should be a renter.

Monster? Our gas furnace isn't much bigger than a small filing cabinet. Just
about as noisy as a filing cabinet too.



Using gas avoids nothing at all and indeed using gas can allow your
ignorance to kill you if you don't have annual inspections. You can just
as readily run an oil burner for years without inspections or service,
but in either case, oil or gas, the inspections are necessary for
safety.

I once saw a gas water heater that had the chimney connection completely
fall apart. The homeowner had not noticed it at all while it was pumping
out CO, where if it had been oil fired they would have noticed it in
minutes. They were lucky that it was in a service closet off the garage
and fairly well isolated from the house or they could well have been
killed by CO.



Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous
problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas
furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on
an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with
detectable fumes before the CO would get you.

And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The
oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

A cracked heat exchanger on a gas furnace is far more likely to go
unnoticed than a cracked heat exchanged on an oil furnace due to the far
more noticeable fumes from an oil burner. Both can pump out CO which can
kill you, but the oil burner has the added safety of being readily
detected. It's the same concept as the odorant they have to add to gas
so you can detect a leak.

Oil furnaces are also less likely to have a cracked heat exchange since
they are generally built more ruggedly than their gas counterparts,
though you can of course find both crap and very high quality in both
types.

"Less likely?" My average gas furnace has a transferable Lifetime Warranty on
its Stainless Steel heat exchanger.






Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do
them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil
or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each
year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle
get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change
regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can
easily last several years without problems.

I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections,
while an oil furnace cannot.

I'd say you are absolutely incorrect. I know of several examples of oil
furnaces that have gone that length of time or longer with no issues and
these include some pretty old units.

As I said the annual inspection is primarily for safety, not out of need
for service. The service is done as a preventative measure since the
parts replaced are very inexpensive and the tech is on-site anyway.

At the very least, it's good to check the fan motor and clean the blower and/or
a/c coil as some amount of dust will inevitably get past a filter and very slowly
accumulate over a season.






I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour.

I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.

You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas
interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though.
Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole
time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of
magnitude more prone to outage?

First off, it is not "dream land", you can check the news archives to
see the frequency of gas outages in most areas.

Please explain what the frequency is, since you are claiming this is relevant.


Second off, *I* have
backup for the electricity so it is not an issue for me. With oil I have
backup for heat and hot water as well.

Our furnace needs (a little with the ECM motor) electricity to operate, but our
water heater and range do not. They operate just as normal without caring if
power is lost, except I have to find matches to light my stove and might have to
reset the clock later.






For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.

Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.

Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from
10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest
interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see,
what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it
MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and
maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat
gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh
supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're
worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?

Diesel generator. Share the fuel supply with the nice safe reliable oil
furnace. #2 fuel oil and #2 diesel are exactly the same, the only
difference is transportation fuel taxes and a generator is not a
transportation use.

I had a near 72 hour outage during a winter ice storm in the northeast a
few years back. I ran on my diesel generator the whole time and went
about my life normally while people around me had freezing pipes and
freezing butts. At least their food didn't spoil since it was cold.


When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for
most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas.

Hurricane areas, ice storm / snow areas, tornado areas, flood areas,
basically almost every area. Since power plants are few and far between
relative to consumers, a problem a good distance away can leave you
without power even if everything else is ok locally.



So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?

Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.

BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even
know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a
construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few
hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can
put it out.

I heard of dozens of gas outages in my immediate area over the years
when I had not a single oil outage. As I noted, I am well prepared for
an electric outage, with gas you don't have the option of being prepared
for a gas outage.



The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I
recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe,
Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably
after a false advertising lawsuit.

Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions
every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds
of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to
the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil.

Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when
the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat
gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims
not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot
know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc?

Politics pure and simple. Large gas monopolies have more lobbyists than
the smaller competitive oil dealers. The big energy companies don't care
much either way since they sell both NG and oil.

Huh? Do you think the "smaller competitive" oil dealers are manufacturing oil
somehow? Or do they participate in the global oil market? They can charge
whatever they like, and the only thing the competition does is keep the costs
similar, but the costs will all go up with the price of crude and/or refined
product. By the way, we can now "choose" our gas supplier, so if that was
really a concern that issue is moot. Gas distribution is a regulated monopoly
and as such they cannot raise their prices unless their costs increase, and the
price they charge must by law be in line with their costs.






The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly
maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained
gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison
between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner.

The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the
difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent.
Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards
to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is
pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each
year.

And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month
whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin
for me.

Pete C.

You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil
are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would
switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can
charge,. just like the water company.

Regulated means little. The fact remains that the gas monopolies are
allowed to charge you even when you are not using any of their product,
which is not the case with oil. That and the other problems with gas
provide solid reasons *not* to use gas.

So you forget to mention that you have solid reasons *not* to use an electric
company.

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:41:41 -0400, John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw awaye) and remove exhaust.

Where, pray tell, does the exhaust go?

Outside via sealed PVC pipes that are right next to the pipe bringing in outside air
for sealed combustion.


It doesn't matter if it's a 1"
rubber hose; it's still a chimney if it carries exhaust.

No. A chimney is a vertical structure by definition and implies a natural draft is
at least partially responsible. http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/chimney

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:
I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable.

I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service.

The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light.

The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY
friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the
pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15
minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot
buildup and roughly check the combustion.


You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who
can't?

The typical homeowner *should* be able to do it, however we have as a
whole lost more and more skills over the years. It used to be that the
bulk of people changed the oil in their cars themselves, now most don't
even know how to open the hood, much less check the oil.

The typical homeowner *should* be screwing around with her oil burner innards?
Yeesh.

They *should* have the minimal skills necessary to change an oil burner
nozzle by following instructions. Recall this requires only the skill to
operate two wrenches and is little different from the skill to change a
faucet aerator, couple a garden hose or connect a propane tank to a
grill. Changing a nozzle does not require any knowledge of burner
controls, combustion adjustments or anything else technical.




Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready
with another nozzle when it craps out?

If you're having an annual service done they get replaced well before
they would crap out unless you are buying the low grade, nearly crude
fuel oil they run cargo ships on. With most any #2 fuel oil the nozzles
and filters can easily last several years without failure so annual
replacement keeps them well within their life expectancy.


Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.

Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't
need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a
service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac
or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on
since a service call every few years is pretty cheap.

I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner
service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of
what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner.

And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class
too? Or just use gas and avoid all this?

I'm suggesting that the typical homeowner should have at least *some*
knowledge of those hulking monsters in their basement, not total
ignorance. If you want to be ignorant you should be a renter.

Monster? Our gas furnace isn't much bigger than a small filing cabinet. Just
about as noisy as a filing cabinet too.

Monster as in the unknown which historically has scared people. Oil and
gas furnaces are about the same size for the same capacity unit. They
both used to be huge and both have steadily shrunk over the years as
technology (and home insulation) improved.

Noise levels for modern gas or oil furnaces of comparable capacity are
comparable as well. Older units of both types were noisier.




Using gas avoids nothing at all and indeed using gas can allow your
ignorance to kill you if you don't have annual inspections. You can just
as readily run an oil burner for years without inspections or service,
but in either case, oil or gas, the inspections are necessary for
safety.

I once saw a gas water heater that had the chimney connection completely
fall apart. The homeowner had not noticed it at all while it was pumping
out CO, where if it had been oil fired they would have noticed it in
minutes. They were lucky that it was in a service closet off the garage
and fairly well isolated from the house or they could well have been
killed by CO.



Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous
problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas
furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on
an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with
detectable fumes before the CO would get you.

And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The
oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

A cracked heat exchanger on a gas furnace is far more likely to go
unnoticed than a cracked heat exchanged on an oil furnace due to the far
more noticeable fumes from an oil burner. Both can pump out CO which can
kill you, but the oil burner has the added safety of being readily
detected. It's the same concept as the odorant they have to add to gas
so you can detect a leak.

Oil furnaces are also less likely to have a cracked heat exchange since
they are generally built more ruggedly than their gas counterparts,
though you can of course find both crap and very high quality in both
types.

"Less likely?" My average gas furnace has a transferable Lifetime Warranty on
its Stainless Steel heat exchanger.

Yes and average oil furnaces are cast iron with similar warrantees. Many
low end gas furnaces are not stainless steel and have much shorter life
expectancies. Only a very few bottom of the barrel oil furnaces use
plain steel heat exchangers.






Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do
them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil
or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each
year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle
get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change
regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can
easily last several years without problems.

I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections,
while an oil furnace cannot.

I'd say you are absolutely incorrect. I know of several examples of oil
furnaces that have gone that length of time or longer with no issues and
these include some pretty old units.

As I said the annual inspection is primarily for safety, not out of need
for service. The service is done as a preventative measure since the
parts replaced are very inexpensive and the tech is on-site anyway.

At the very least, it's good to check the fan motor and clean the blower and/or
a/c coil as some amount of dust will inevitably get past a filter and very slowly
accumulate over a season.

Quite correct and with either oil or gas, if there is an A/C unit
incorporated there is a significantly greater need for service since air
(and dirt) is circulated all year instead of just during the heating
season. Without A/C both oil and gas are also comparable in cleaning and
service requirements.







I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour.

I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.

You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas
interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though.
Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole
time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of
magnitude more prone to outage?

First off, it is not "dream land", you can check the news archives to
see the frequency of gas outages in most areas.

Please explain what the frequency is, since you are claiming this is relevant.

In the town I was in and the adjacent towns during the past couple
decades I recall hearing of a gas outage of some duration at least every
few months. This is also an area with relatively sparse gas service,
probably less than 50% coverage of residences in the area. I recall
several times there were multi day outages during the winter where
people had to go to shelters.


Second off, *I* have
backup for the electricity so it is not an issue for me. With oil I have
backup for heat and hot water as well.

Our furnace needs (a little with the ECM motor) electricity to operate, but our
water heater and range do not. They operate just as normal without caring if
power is lost, except I have to find matches to light my stove and might have to
reset the clock later.

Your point is? With oil heat / hot water and a generator (it doesn't
have to be a very big generator either) I have heat, hot water, range,
oven, clocks, TV, etc. with little more than a few minutes interruption.
With a diesel generator and the typical 275-300 gal oil tank even at
half full I have enough fuel for heat and generator for at least a week
without outside utilities.






For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.

Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.

Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from
10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest
interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see,
what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it
MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and
maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat
gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh
supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're
worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?

Diesel generator. Share the fuel supply with the nice safe reliable oil
furnace. #2 fuel oil and #2 diesel are exactly the same, the only
difference is transportation fuel taxes and a generator is not a
transportation use.

I had a near 72 hour outage during a winter ice storm in the northeast a
few years back. I ran on my diesel generator the whole time and went
about my life normally while people around me had freezing pipes and
freezing butts. At least their food didn't spoil since it was cold.


When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for
most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas.

Hurricane areas, ice storm / snow areas, tornado areas, flood areas,
basically almost every area. Since power plants are few and far between
relative to consumers, a problem a good distance away can leave you
without power even if everything else is ok locally.



So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?

Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.

BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even
know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a
construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few
hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can
put it out.

I heard of dozens of gas outages in my immediate area over the years
when I had not a single oil outage. As I noted, I am well prepared for
an electric outage, with gas you don't have the option of being prepared
for a gas outage.



The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I
recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe,
Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably
after a false advertising lawsuit.

Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions
every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds
of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to
the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil.

Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when
the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat
gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims
not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot
know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc?

Politics pure and simple. Large gas monopolies have more lobbyists than
the smaller competitive oil dealers. The big energy companies don't care
much either way since they sell both NG and oil.

Huh? Do you think the "smaller competitive" oil dealers are manufacturing oil
somehow? Or do they participate in the global oil market? They can charge
whatever they like, and the only thing the competition does is keep the costs
similar, but the costs will all go up with the price of crude and/or refined
product.

The costs of nat. gas also go up with the cost of other energy
commodities and also with the growth of nat. gas fueled electric
generation "peaking" power plants. Nat. gas is not some fixed cheap
energy source unaffected by the rest of the energy market.

By the way, we can now "choose" our gas supplier, so if that was
really a concern that issue is moot. Gas distribution is a regulated monopoly
and as such they cannot raise their prices unless their costs increase, and the
price they charge must by law be in line with their costs.

My concern is that they are allowed to charge you even when you do not
use gas. This has no parallel with oil. If I don't use any oil I don't
pay anything. With oil you also have the option of having a larger tank
and purchasing off season to get better prices something you can not do
with gas.






The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly
maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained
gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison
between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner.

The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the
difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent.
Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards
to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is
pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each
year.

And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month
whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin
for me.

Pete C.

You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil
are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would
switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can
charge,. just like the water company.

Regulated means little. The fact remains that the gas monopolies are
allowed to charge you even when you are not using any of their product,
which is not the case with oil. That and the other problems with gas
provide solid reasons *not* to use gas.

So you forget to mention that you have solid reasons *not* to use an electric
company.

Excuse me? I have solid reasons to have a generator as backup for the
electric companies outages. Outside of that the electric company can
provide me power at a lower effective rate than I can generate it myself
for since they can keep their generators fully loaded and therefore at
optimum efficiency.

A generator loaded to 25% of it's rated capacity as it would by much of
the time supplying a single home will still consume far more than 25% of
it's full load fuel consumption. If you could maintain a steady load
from the house so that you could match the generator size perfectly then
you could generate at close to utility rates.

So it is most economical to use an electric utility because of the lower
cost and the fact that it is practical and economical to have backup for
that utility. Electricity (like oil) also does not present the hazards
of gas. If the insulation on an electric line fails it does not fill
your home with explosive gas. If an electric line is shorted a circuit
breaker or fuse interrupts the power. Gas services generally do not have
comparable protective devices other than very recent seismic valves in
earthquake areas and those provide no protection from any other faults.

Pete C.

John wrote:

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
news
Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily
we have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?




Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated
damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt
to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after
release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply
of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.


I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented
thru PVC and a draft inducer fan Would this furnace have a safety shutoff.

Most likely. The exhaust inducer has a pressure switch to monitor performance
and also shut down the furnace if there is an exhaust problem. The computer in
the furnace will attempt to check again (without lighting the burners if it
fails) to clear the fault. If not, an error code is stored.

For reference some of the better oil burners have similar features. Side
power vent kits which can be used with any oil burner also have this
feature where if there isn't airflow they lock out the burner.

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.

Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?

There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not
generally used.

They are just about always used on a modern efficient (greater than 90% AFUE)
furnace that has direct vent.

Correct, however they haven't really found their way into non-direct
vent furnaces yet.


The much more common CO detector would detect such
conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Everyone with an attached garage or interior combustion device should have CO
detectors, at least on every level. They aren't expensive and some states are now
mandating them, just like smoke detectors.

Right and if you have gas you can get the combination explosive gas
(nat. gas or propane) and CO detector. Note that with these you have to
mount them high to detect nat. gas and low to detect propane since nat.
gas rises and collects ceiling down and propane sinks and collects floor
up. I think most states have CO detectors mandated in rental housing
already.




Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace
and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to
momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a
sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give
false alarms.

Wind gusts? Back drafts? Yikes! Isn't your oil burner using sealed combustion
to prevent inside air from ever touching the combustion chamber of the furnace?
It would be a shame for the furnace to consume heated house air.

Only a small percentage of furnaces oil or gas are sealed combustion at
present. The Riello burners are particularly nice in a sealed combustion
configuration with their pre and post purge cycles.

Oil furnaces are more prevalent in the northern climates where gas
service is spotty and backup more critical. In those areas they are
typically in basements to they are not consuming heated air.

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw away) and remove exhaust.

The same applies to modern efficient oil furnaces though they do not use
PVC pipe for those vents.

Pete C.

John wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:41:41 -0400, John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw awaye) and remove exhaust.

Where, pray tell, does the exhaust go?

Outside via sealed PVC pipes that are right next to the pipe bringing in outside air
for sealed combustion.

It doesn't matter if it's a 1"
rubber hose; it's still a chimney if it carries exhaust.

No. A chimney is a vertical structure by definition and implies a natural draft is
at least partially responsible. http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/chimney

Correct and older furnaces, both oil and gas required chimneys. New
furnaces both oil and gas have the option of direct venting though oil
furnaces use metal pipes for their vents, not PVC. That difference is of
no relevance to cost or operation though.

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:
Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if
you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them
have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO
situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident
with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We
had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a
contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during
work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come
heating season, the CO killed them.


Again the fact that oil combustion products other than CO are far more
human detectable than those of gas means that that incident may not have
resulted in deaths had it been an oil furnace.

In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more.

False. Modern oil and gas furnaces produce comparable amounts of
emissions. The exact composition is different, but the overall pollution
is the same (the EPA and DOE have studies that confirm this if you want
to look).

Different emission components have different levels of human
detectability and oil emissions are more detectable than gas emissions.
In the case of both oil and gas, they don't produce a lot of CO unless
the combustion adjustments are quite a bit off. When the adjustments are
off the oil becomes even more detectable than the gas when the
adjustments are off.


The nasty building fumes
would have very likely driven the occupants out before a lethal CO
exposure could occur.

Cite?

None handy, just personal experience with the exhaust of both under both
proper combustion and improper combustion conditions. Neither is very
detectable under proper combustion, but neither produces much CO then
either. Under improper combustion the oil exhaust is far more noticeable
as it produces both fine particulates (soot) and vaporized hydrocarbons.


You *DO* have carbon monoxide detectors, don't you?

I did, before I moved. I do not at present because I have no combustion
appliances at present (electric).

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:

Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.

That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get
"tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just
accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate
from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty /
leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source.

There shouldn't be any gas at all outside the furnace or plumbing.

There shouldn't, if pipes, regulators, valves and controls were all 100%
reliable. As can plainly be seen from all the gas explosions that occur,
that is not the case.





Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with
guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil

This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue.

When your house is not inhabitable due to heavy oil contamination and fumes,
it *is* a safety issue. "Over hyped" environmental issue? Yeah right, unless
you consider oil contaminated earth and pollution as part of your
environment.

First off, uninhabitable meaning you have to leave during cleanup, and
uninhabitable because it collapsed after the gas explosion are vastly
different things. If you are home when the oil leaks you simply leave,
safe and sound. If you are home when the gas leaks you can easily end up
dead.

As for the environmental part, yes, it is over hyped. Cleanup of even
300 gal of fuel oil that leaks in a concrete basement is pretty minor if
it's done reasonably soon. Cleanup of oil leaked from an underground
tank is a different matter since until the advent of the double wall
tanks with monitoring you aren't likely to detect the leak for months or
years. That is why we replace 50 yr old underground tanks with indoor
tanks or new double wall underground tanks.



Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much
leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it
pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two.

I guess if your concrete floors are watertight and sealed (so the oil doesn't
soak into them) and you don't have any drains or perimeter drains. Oh and if
you don't mind everything saturated in #2 oil.

Concrete floors are fairly water tight if they are in good condition.
Oil will eventually soak through, but at a pretty slow rate. Not that
many basements actually have drains either.

As for saturated in #2, I'd vastly prefer that over a smoldering crater
where my house used to be. The oil can be readily pumped and vacuumed up
from the surface and the concrete if it's saturated can be removed and
replaced with far less expense than rebuilding the whole house after the
gas explosion (if I survived the explosion).





Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based
on age of tank.

And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction,
just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double
wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal
risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no
longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable.
Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame
retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far
cry from the old burners as well.

Yeah, technology changes, like inducer motors that shut everything down if
there is an exhaust blockage in gas furnaces (very very rare).

Current oil furnaces have the same feature available.


So, what oil company do you work for? Typical new high efficency gas
furnaces get about 94-96% efficiency (AFUE) My neighbor has the exact same
house as I do and he has oil heat. I keep my house a little warmer and last
winter's bill was less than 2/3 of his. After comparing numbers, he's very
interested in switching too. What is the AFUE of your oil furnace?

I work for a bank.

How old are each of your furnaces? Where in the model range is each one?
Both make a big difference. New vs. 30yr old isn't a fair comparison and
neither is new high end vs. new low end.

Also since both nat. gas costs and oil costs fluctuate it's difficult to
make a really valid comparison based on cost, particularly when someone
buying their oil off season can get lower prices than someone buying
just month to month. Rate lock-ins are also more frequently available
for oil service.

The last furnace I just had installed at my mothers house this spring
(Weil-McLain WTGO4 with a Becket burner) is 85% AFUE, but it is not a
high end unit. If I was going for high end it would be a Buderus boiler
with a Riello burner. The house needs a lot more insulation so the
burner efficiency is a small factor at present.

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.


With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

The price differences between oil suppliers are negligible, as they are all buying
their oil in the same local market from the same common carriers, unless your oil
company also has a terminal to import the middle east crude and refine it. Or
some distributors are jacking up the price. Last year, oil companies jacked up
prices for non contract customers in a hurry and they went down very slowly. Our
NG prices rised a little a few months later and then tapered back significantly
mid way through the winter. Our gas service is still cheaper than the "cheap" oil
companies, and our furnace is a lot more cleaner burning and efficient too.


Price differences are not negligible. During the peak of price gouging
season one small company was about $0.15/gal cheaper than another larger
one and the small company didn't even have their own storage terminal
where the big company did. They also offered more discounts (senior and
COD) than the larger company making the effective difference more like
$0.25/gal. I consider that pretty significant when oil was running
around $0.85/gal.

If you are against regulated monopolies, than your argument is also the same for
opposing electricity service (and maybe water too).

Not at all and not even the same comparison. First off I can choose
between more than a dozen electric suppliers and second off the monopoly
status is only one of the reasons I won't use nat. gas. Also unlike nat.
gas, electricity is far less likely to have periods of no use while
still being charged a service charge. Additionally the last time I
checked you could disconnect and reconnect electricity without large
service charges, unlike gas.





I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Hope you're around to do that and not on vacation.

If you're leaving for vacation and don't review the house status and
things like turning off the water and looking at the level on the oil
tank then you're an idiot. If I'm getting ready for vacation and the oil
tank is low I just call my supplier and ask them to deliver the next day
(before I leave). Doesn't cost me any extra and is no more effort than
turning off the water or unplugging some appliances.

Oh by the way, if we do have a
power failure, we can still take lots of hot showers and cook on our stove
indefinitely.

Same here. With my diesel generator and oil heat I can go for weeks.


Oil is a great choice if you have no natural gas service available and your
climate is too cold for heat pumps.

Oil is indeed a great choice under those conditions and it is also a
very good choice under many more conditions, particularly if you are in
a cold area even if gas is available.

By the way, no climate is too cold for geothermal heat pumps, you just
have to get the coils below the frost line where you have a nice
constant temperature.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:


In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more.

False. Modern oil and gas furnaces produce comparable amounts of
emissions. The exact composition is different, but the overall pollution
is the same (the EPA and DOE have studies that confirm this if you want
to look).

Now, I'd love to see the supporting data for the claim that modern gas
and oil furnaces produce the same amount of pollution. Why do you
think many cities have replaced diesel bus fleets with ones that run
natural gas if burning oil is just as clean? Natural gas produces only
water and CO2. And nat gas even produces a third less CO2 than
burning oil. Burning oil, in addition to the above, produces
particulates, nitrous oxide, and sulfates.

http://www.tevisoil.com/fuel/compare.asp
http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels...%209-12-03.pdf

The poster is right. First, you proclaim the smell produced by burning
oil to be a virtue, because it may save you from dying from CO. . Then
you claim oil heat is as clean as nat gas. Did you ever see an oil
based appliance of any kind vented into a home? Yet millions of nat
gas kitchen stoves work exactly that way. Gee, I wonder why?

A whopping total of 28 people a year die in the US from CO from natural
gas heat systems period. I'd like to see any real world evidence that
oil heat systems are any safer overall. Nat gas continues to increase
in market share, while oil heat is now down to 4% of new homes. If
it's so unsafe and unreliable, why is that?

Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with
thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of
use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure
that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in
place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves
fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a
termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot,
but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a
thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a
stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter
and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for
decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is
far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride
in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........

Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas
explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO.

CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue
leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due
to:

1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual
inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace
falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming.

2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable
by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner
sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much
more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas.

People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil
appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and
from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil
stove or dryer?).

When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions,
gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as
an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source
unlike gas leaks.


I'd like to see the data that shows that home nat gas heating systems
actually cause far greater fires than oil heating systems. Does the
insurance company charge higher rates for gas furnaces based on payout
on fires and explosions? Again, you are making wild assumptions,
without any supporting data.

Sure there is a small additional risk from nat gas due to the
possibility of an explosion that you do not have with oil. But you
blow all this way out of proportion to the real risk. How many
people die each year in auto accidents compared to furnace systems of
any kind? It's 2 orders of magnitude or more higher. There are 40K
people killed every year in US auto accidents. 17K die in falls.
Only 3K die from ALL sources of building fire/explosion. While I
couldn't find actual data on accidental nat gas fire deaths, by the
time you seperate those out of the 3K, you will surely be down around
the level of deaths due to lightning or commercial aviation. So, who
besides you cares?

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.



is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.



Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Pete C.

In almost ALL communities where natural gas service is available, local
codes do NOT permit the exhaust gas from the natural gas furnace to
share a common flue with a fireplace, and such installations, in almost
cases REQUIRE a cap.

Fireplace chimney is NOT the same as gas furnace chimney, DANGEROUS to
put the two together.

Pete C. wrote:


Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas?

Pretty unlikely not to use gas for cooking, hot water and clothes drying
year round.

Then there is that tank you have to buy and install and need to
periodically replace.

There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

Maintenance is a lot more involved on an oil burner. You need to replace
nozzles, oil filters and clean the flue passages. When I looked at our
natural gas boiler after the first year there was no need to clean
anything and there are no filter or nozzles to replace. This has been
true for over 30 years. And since it doesn't need a high pressure pump
to atomize fuel electricity costs are lower.




I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.

Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
news
Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...


Todd H. wrote:


"Martik" writes:




Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily
we have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.




Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?





Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated
damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt
to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after
release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply
of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.



I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented
thru PVC and a draft inducer fan. Would this furnace have a safety shutoff.



Nope, it RELIES on the fact the the exhaust vent AND the supply vent are
UNOBSTRUCTED. Both vents MUST be inspected on a REGULAR basis to
ensure that gas is free flowing thru BOTH of them.

George wrote:
Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly. But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.










is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.

I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas
interruption is a big concern. It obviously isn't for 95% of us who
use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone
out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had
electricity go out. And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key.
An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt
electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole,
all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is
immune from. Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage
thing is another red herring.

If oil is so much better, why do only 4% of new homes use oil heat?





from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Yeah, it;s like arguing the size of an ant to the size of a mosquito.
Look at how many people actually die from a fall. It's orders of
magnitude larger. Should we get rid of bathtubs and tile floors too?



Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

That isn;t true, as gas furnaces generate CO2, which is the hottest
environmental issue of the moment. But, oil generates not only that,
but also NO, sulfur emissions, etc.





Pete C.

wrote:

But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.

There is definitely some regional bias involved. Historically, the US east coast
has used fuel oil for heat, so there tends to be a "this is how we've always
done it, so it must be right" mentality going on.

20+ years ago, oil was substantially more expensive than natural gas. The east
coast didn't have the supply infrastructure to distribute natural gas, so few
could take advantage of that differential.

With all the EPA restrictions on new power plants, utilities built gas fired
plants which sucked up most of the surplus gas and drove natural gas prices up
closer to fuel oil.

ConnocoPhillips has an interesting article with graphics that shows price
differences over the past 5 years:

http://www.conocophillips.com/newsro...eating_oil.htm

Robert Gammon wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Pete C.

In almost ALL communities where natural gas service is available, local
codes do NOT permit the exhaust gas from the natural gas furnace to
share a common flue with a fireplace, and such installations, in almost
cases REQUIRE a cap.

Fireplace chimney is NOT the same as gas furnace chimney, DANGEROUS to
put the two together.

Who said anything about a fireplace chimney? There are a tremendous
number of multi flue chimneys out there that do not have screen caps on
any of the flues. Separate flues for fireplace and furnace.

Pete C.

wrote:
George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.


Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier.

Agree, maybe I should have said "monopolistic behavior". But they are
all joined at the waist. My buddy works in an energy commodity business
and says behind the scenes they are all in lock step with each other
just as we see at the gas stations where "something may possibly happen
somewhere" and they all raise their prices.

In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly. But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact.
The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.


Exactly, there are pros and cons and it is typicallu a wash.

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more.

False. Modern oil and gas furnaces produce comparable amounts of
emissions. The exact composition is different, but the overall pollution
is the same (the EPA and DOE have studies that confirm this if you want
to look).

Now, I'd love to see the supporting data for the claim that modern gas
and oil furnaces produce the same amount of pollution. Why do you
think many cities have replaced diesel bus fleets with ones that run
natural gas if burning oil is just as clean? Natural gas produces only
water and CO2. And nat gas even produces a third less CO2 than
burning oil. Burning oil, in addition to the above, produces
particulates, nitrous oxide, and sulfates.

http://www.tevisoil.com/fuel/compare.asp
http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels...%209-12-03.pdf

Try looking at the EPA and DOE sites.


The poster is right. First, you proclaim the smell produced by burning
oil to be a virtue, because it may save you from dying from CO. . Then
you claim oil heat is as clean as nat gas.

You don't read well do you? I indicated that both are not very
detectable when combustion adjustments are proper and neither produces
much CO under those conditions either. It is when combustion adjustments
are out of whack that a lot of CO is produced and it is also under those
abnormal conditions that oil exhaust is much more detectable than gas
exhaust.

Did you ever see an oil
based appliance of any kind vented into a home? Yet millions of nat
gas kitchen stoves work exactly that way. Gee, I wonder why?

Not for the reasons you apparently think.


A whopping total of 28 people a year die in the US from CO from natural
gas heat systems period. I'd like to see any real world evidence that
oil heat systems are any safer overall.

Indeed they are. CO is not the only way a nat. gas heating system can
kill you. Add in the number of deaths from gas explosions to the CO
deaths and then compare to oil. Then compare the number of injuries from
gas explosions to the number of injuries from oil explosions. Then tell
me which is safer.

Nat gas continues to increase
in market share, while oil heat is now down to 4% of new homes. If
it's so unsafe and unreliable, why is that?

1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign
energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers
delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil.
Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported
from foreign sources.

2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe"
in one gas suppliers advertising. Deceptive price comparisons that do
not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive
claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the
cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to
low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.

I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern
states whe

1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get
low end gas systems to last longer.

2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower
installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and
blast through.

3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from
service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply
minimal gas.

4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole
due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems
not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest
low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for
the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down
the road.

Pete C.

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas?

Pretty unlikely not to use gas for cooking, hot water and clothes drying
year round.

I have a friend who only has gas heat. I noted to him the like $8/mo
he's paying from about April - October for the zero gas he's using.


Then there is that tank you have to buy and install and need to
periodically replace.

Tanks are cheap (at least indoor ones), and indoor ones do not require
periodic replacement, nor do newly installed double wall underground
tanks.


There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

Maintenance is a lot more involved on an oil burner. You need to replace
nozzles, oil filters and clean the flue passages. When I looked at our
natural gas boiler after the first year there was no need to clean
anything and there are no filter or nozzles to replace. This has been
true for over 30 years. And since it doesn't need a high pressure pump
to atomize fuel electricity costs are lower.

Maintenance is not "a lot more involved", replacing a $6 nozzle and $2
filter is pretty damn negligible and they really are only needed every
few years. They are commonly done annually simply because they are so
cheap. Cleaning isn't generally necessary annually either with a modern
oil burner that is correctly adjusted as there is very little soot.
Electricity costs to run the burner motor are quite negligible and both
oil and gas systems need electricity for blower motors or circulator
pumps.

Pete C.




I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,

Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other.

First there is no such thing as "big oil", those are big *energy*
companies that are involved in nat. gas as well. The producers all have
similar costs so logically the products they produce have similar costs.
It is not some sort of collusion.

Energy prices are also high at the moment due not only to the middle
east nonsense, but also due to the significant losses and costs
associated with rebuilding the offshore oil rigs and the refineries
severely damaged by Katrina. These are real costs that have to be
recovered.

Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

I think many is more accurate, not "most". I know quite a few people who
only use gas for heating.


is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.

I've found price differences of better than $0.20/gal during record cold
winters when the overall price was around $0.85/gal. I consider that to
be a significant difference. You nat. gas suppliers also have to buy
from the same source.


you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages

No outage here in 35 years.

You're lucky. I've had no oil outage in 36 years and others within about
a 10 mile radius have had to go to shelters during a multi day gas
outage in the winter.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

Good grief! You actually believe that? Nat. gas is indeed a petroleum
related product. Those gas flares you see off the side of oil rigs are
nat. gas that has been separated from the oil.

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote in message
Anyone looking at the complete pictu

Oil *is* safer than gas.

Where can I fins statistics on this?


Oil *is* more reliable than gas (on site fuel).

Bull ****. I've run out of oil, I've NEVER run out of gas. When power goes
out, oil is useless but if you have a gas stove, you can use the burners to
cook. I've never experinenced a gas outage in 60 years.




Oil *is* more competitive than gas (multiple suppliers).

Sure, you have Exxon, BP, Shell. Wow, what a great selection. Do the local
dealers vary in price by more than a penny or two? Nope, they don't. One
huge cartel.


Oil does *not* have service charges when you aren't using it.

If you cook with gas, you use it all the time. Same with hot water. Not
much of an agrument there.



Oil equipment *does* on average have a much longer service life than gas
equipment.

Really? I've not seen any big difference. Gas burners are pretty much
maintenance free. Once in a while a thermocouple or valve will need
replacing, sort of like an oil burner that needs a new motor, pump or nozzle
at time. Mechanical things break. In all my years of gas service, I"ve
only had two, maybe three service calls, but with oil, I must have $125
service and cleaning every year.

Do you happen to have ties to an oil dealer?

wrote:

George wrote:
Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly.

Right.

But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.

Completely false. This argument against nat. gas is based on facts about
it's safety, reliability, cleanliness and the service life of the
equipment. I have ignored price per BTU since that is constantly in
flux.

Price is the only argument made in favor of nat. gas that has even short
term validity. All other arguments in favor of nat. gas have been based
on either myths, or comparisons of brand new gas equipment to 50yr old
oil equipment.





is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.

I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas
interruption is a big concern.

And I've mentioned several times that I'm referring to the northeast.
It's CT in particular where I lived for 36 years before moving a couple
years ago.

It obviously isn't for 95% of us who
use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone
out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had
electricity go out.

Indeed I did as well and when it did I simply started my generator and
went back about my normal business without more that a few minutes
interruption.

And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key.
An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt
electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole,
all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is
immune from.

You are ignoring the fact that it is possible and economical to provide
backup for the electricity, something that is not possible with the gas.
Additionally time to repair a damaged electric line is significantly
less than time to repair a damaged gas line in most cases. You also
don't have to spend additional time purging a repaired electric line
before returning it to service as you do with a repaired gas line.

Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage
thing is another red herring.

Tell that to the folks who lived within 10 miles of me that had to spend
several days in a shelter due to a gas outage.


If oil is so much better, why do only 4% of new homes use oil heat?

1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign
energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers
delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil.
Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported
from foreign sources.

2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe"
in one gas suppliers advertising. Deceptive price comparisons that do
not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive
claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the
cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to
low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.

I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern
states whe

1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get
low end gas systems to last longer.

2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower
installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and
blast through.

3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from
service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply
minimal gas.

4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole
due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems
not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest
low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for
the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down
the road.




from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Yeah, it;s like arguing the size of an ant to the size of a mosquito.
Look at how many people actually die from a fall. It's orders of
magnitude larger. Should we get rid of bathtubs and tile floors too?

Do we have viable alternatives to bathtubs and tile floors? When there
is a viable alternative to a potentially dangerous item it is worthwhile
to consider them.

In the case of bathtubs and tile floors however there are patches
available such as non slip mats that can overcome their safety issues.
Equivalent safety patches are not available for nat. gas though CO and
explosive gas detectors do help.

Again safety is only one part of the argument against nat. gas.

Pete C.




Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

That isn;t true, as gas furnaces generate CO2, which is the hottest
environmental issue of the moment. But, oil generates not only that,
but also NO, sulfur emissions, etc.




Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.

Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?

There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not
generally used.

They are just about always used on a modern efficient (greater than 90% AFUE)
furnace that has direct vent.

Correct, however they haven't really found their way into non-direct
vent furnaces yet.


The much more common CO detector would detect such
conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Everyone with an attached garage or interior combustion device should have CO
detectors, at least on every level. They aren't expensive and some states are now
mandating them, just like smoke detectors.

Right and if you have gas you can get the combination explosive gas
(nat. gas or propane) and CO detector. Note that with these you have to
mount them high to detect nat. gas and low to detect propane since nat.
gas rises and collects ceiling down and propane sinks and collects floor
up. I think most states have CO detectors mandated in rental housing
already.




Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace
and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to
momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a
sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give
false alarms.

Wind gusts? Back drafts? Yikes! Isn't your oil burner using sealed combustion
to prevent inside air from ever touching the combustion chamber of the furnace?
It would be a shame for the furnace to consume heated house air.

Only a small percentage of furnaces oil or gas are sealed combustion at
present. The Riello burners are particularly nice in a sealed combustion
configuration with their pre and post purge cycles.

Oil furnaces are more prevalent in the northern climates where gas
service is spotty and backup more critical.

Exactly where is this spotty gas service that you speak of?


In those areas they are
typically in basements to they are not consuming heated air.

The basement air is sealed from the air upstairs?

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more.

False. Modern oil and gas furnaces produce comparable amounts of
emissions. The exact composition is different, but the overall pollution
is the same (the EPA and DOE have studies that confirm this if you want
to look).

Now, I'd love to see the supporting data for the claim that modern gas
and oil furnaces produce the same amount of pollution. Why do you
think many cities have replaced diesel bus fleets with ones that run
natural gas if burning oil is just as clean? Natural gas produces only
water and CO2. And nat gas even produces a third less CO2 than
burning oil. Burning oil, in addition to the above, produces
particulates, nitrous oxide, and sulfates.

http://www.tevisoil.com/fuel/compare.asp
http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels...%209-12-03.pdf

Try looking at the EPA and DOE sites.

Ok. What pages on these sites should we look at?

The poster is right. First, you proclaim the smell produced by burning
oil to be a virtue, because it may save you from dying from CO. . Then
you claim oil heat is as clean as nat gas.

You don't read well do you? I indicated that both are not very
detectable when combustion adjustments are proper and neither produces
much CO under those conditions either. It is when combustion adjustments
are out of whack that a lot of CO is produced and it is also under those
abnormal conditions that oil exhaust is much more detectable than gas
exhaust.

Did you ever see an oil
based appliance of any kind vented into a home? Yet millions of nat
gas kitchen stoves work exactly that way. Gee, I wonder why?

Not for the reasons you apparently think.


A whopping total of 28 people a year die in the US from CO from natural
gas heat systems period. I'd like to see any real world evidence that
oil heat systems are any safer overall.

Indeed they are. CO is not the only way a nat. gas heating system can
kill you. Add in the number of deaths from gas explosions to the CO
deaths and then compare to oil. Then compare the number of injuries from
gas explosions to the number of injuries from oil explosions. Then tell
me which is safer.

What is the number of deaths from natural gas versus oil? Can you show us the numbers or is
this just a FUD campaign?



Nat gas continues to increase
in market share, while oil heat is now down to 4% of new homes. If
it's so unsafe and unreliable, why is that?

1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign
energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers
delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil.
Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported
from foreign sources.

The amount and proportion of natural gas that is imported to the USA is tiny compared to
oil. Much of the imported natural gas comes from right here in North America, not hostile
areas of the world like the Middle East.



2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe"
in one gas suppliers advertising.

Which supplier are you talking about? What is the definition of "safe?"

Deceptive price comparisons that do
not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive
claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the
cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to
low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.

Service charges? Like the $4/month minimum billing fee that I pay for my natural gas
service? My electric company charges more than that so your argument is opposing electric
service too. Even including that fee (which includes service for my hot water heater, gas
grill, stove, and dryer) I'm still way ahead with gas, and I have a very efficient furnace
too.



I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern
states whe

1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get
low end gas systems to last longer.

How so?


2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower
installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and
blast through.

Huh? What is your source of this claim?



3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from
service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply
minimal gas.

You said they are a monopoly. Why would they need to market? I hear a lot of advertising
by oil dealers, or the collective oil dealers, operating as one.

4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole
due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems
not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest
low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for
the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down
the road.

What are your numbers for your cost comparison?

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw away) and remove exhaust.

The same applies to modern efficient oil furnaces though they do not use
PVC pipe for those vents.

What is the efficiency rating (AFUE) for these "modern efficient oil furnaces?" My
natural gas furnace is about 96% efficient (AFUE), meaning that about 96% of the
energy in the gas becomes actual heat in my house. How does your "efficient oil
furnace" compare?

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:

Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.

That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get
"tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just
accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate
from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty /
leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source.

There shouldn't be any gas at all outside the furnace or plumbing.

There shouldn't, if pipes, regulators, valves and controls were all 100%
reliable. As can plainly be seen from all the gas explosions that occur,
that is not the case.

How many explosions is "all the gas explosions?" Or people that awake to find
their home and its contents are destroyed by oil or that their basement is now an
oil spill site?







Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with
guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil

This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue.

When your house is not inhabitable due to heavy oil contamination and fumes,
it *is* a safety issue. "Over hyped" environmental issue? Yeah right, unless
you consider oil contaminated earth and pollution as part of your
environment.

First off, uninhabitable meaning you have to leave during cleanup, and
uninhabitable because it collapsed after the gas explosion are vastly
different things. If you are home when the oil leaks you simply leave,
safe and sound. If you are home when the gas leaks you can easily end up
dead.

As for the environmental part, yes, it is over hyped. Cleanup of even
300 gal of fuel oil that leaks in a concrete basement is pretty minor if
it's done reasonably soon.

Cite? I know it is a lot more than that because a house near me had exactly that
happen to it, and the house was condemned during the cleanup last year.

Cleanup of oil leaked from an underground
tank is a different matter since until the advent of the double wall
tanks with monitoring you aren't likely to detect the leak for months or
years. That is why we replace 50 yr old underground tanks with indoor
tanks or new double wall underground tanks.

I'm suspicious of underground tanks for residential use. And who is doing all of
the required monitoring? If the inner tank breaks, why can't the outer tank break
too? If the outer tank is already corroded when the inner tank breaks, what good
is it (or the monitoring system?)

Gas station tanks have caused enough horrors (at least 7 spill sites from leaking
tanks in my town alone), and they supposedly are tightly regulated and inspected
regularly. Recall that the MTBE fiasco is caused primarily from gasoline leaking
from underground tanks!






Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much
leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it
pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two.

I guess if your concrete floors are watertight and sealed (so the oil doesn't
soak into them) and you don't have any drains or perimeter drains. Oh and if
you don't mind everything saturated in #2 oil.

Concrete floors are fairly water tight if they are in good condition.
Oil will eventually soak through, but at a pretty slow rate. Not that
many basements actually have drains either.

Well just about every house around me has a perimeter drain. Prevents any concerns
of water in the basement. I didn't realize that basement floors and walls were
supposed to be petroleum spill containment systems.



As for saturated in #2, I'd vastly prefer that over a smoldering crater
where my house used to be. The oil can be readily pumped and vacuumed up
from the surface and the concrete if it's saturated can be removed and
replaced with far less expense than rebuilding the whole house after the
gas explosion (if I survived the explosion).

Gas just doesn't blow up a house unless something goes really wrong, like a backhoe
out front hitting a pipe. Even then the smell of the gas is pretty obvious before
it reaches an explosive ratio with oxygen. In that case it doesn't matter if your
particular house has gas service if the gas follows a water or sewer or electrical
conduit into your basment instead of following the outside of a gas line.







Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based
on age of tank.

And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction,
just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double
wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal
risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no
longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable.
Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame
retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far
cry from the old burners as well.

Yeah, technology changes, like inducer motors that shut everything down if
there is an exhaust blockage in gas furnaces (very very rare).

Current oil furnaces have the same feature available.

But as you pointed out, CO for oil furnaces isn't a concern for you since you can
just smell the dirtier oil furnace fumes.




So, what oil company do you work for? Typical new high efficency gas
furnaces get about 94-96% efficiency (AFUE) My neighbor has the exact same
house as I do and he has oil heat. I keep my house a little warmer and last
winter's bill was less than 2/3 of his. After comparing numbers, he's very
interested in switching too. What is the AFUE of your oil furnace?

I work for a bank.

How old are each of your furnaces? Where in the model range is each one?
Both make a big difference. New vs. 30yr old isn't a fair comparison and
neither is new high end vs. new low end.

About five years old. Fine, let's compare it with a four or even a brand new oil
furnace. What AFUE rating



Also since both nat. gas costs and oil costs fluctuate it's difficult to
make a really valid comparison based on cost, particularly when someone
buying their oil off season can get lower prices than someone buying
just month to month. Rate lock-ins are also more frequently available
for oil service.

The last furnace I just had installed at my mothers house this spring
(Weil-McLain WTGO4 with a Becket burner) is 85% AFUE, but it is not a
high end unit. If I was going for high end it would be a Buderus boiler
with a Riello burner. The house needs a lot more insulation so the
burner efficiency is a small factor at present.

What oil furnaces can do 92%-96% AFUE?

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:
wrote:


But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.


There is definitely some regional bias involved. Historically, the US east coast
has used fuel oil for heat, so there tends to be a "this is how we've always
done it, so it must be right" mentality going on.

20+ years ago, oil was substantially more expensive than natural gas. The east
coast didn't have the supply infrastructure to distribute natural gas, so few
could take advantage of that differential.

With all the EPA restrictions on new power plants, utilities built gas fired
plants which sucked up most of the surplus gas and drove natural gas prices up
closer to fuel oil.

ConnocoPhillips has an interesting article with graphics that shows price
differences over the past 5 years:

http://www.conocophillips.com/newsro...eating_oil.htm

This graph is VERY VERY telling.

It says that in all but two of the last 6 heating seasons, it has been
CHEAPER to heat with Natural gas and in the two exception years, they
were very very close to equal cost.

So the choice in heating systems is LARGELY dictated by where you live,
NOT what costs more. Northeast states consume 70% of heating oil.
Choices there are heating oil or electricity with minor contributions
from other sources. But only 1/3 of residences there have oil heat. The
rest of the country, its either gas (natural gas via pipleine, or
propane in tanks on your property) or electricity.

Safety is not the issue, cost is not the issue, its what your neighbors
use and what choices you have for heating fuel. To argue with someone
in Pennsylvania or New York that natural gas is the fuel of choice is
fool hardy. To argue with someone in Kansas that fuel oil is the fuel
of choice is similarly fool hardy. Outside the northeast, the
infrastructure to support fuel oil for heat is lacking. In the
northeast, natural gas distribution is spotty at best.

So this discussion needs to STOP. Each person who is faced with a
decision on a furnace will rely on personal experience, the advice of
one or more HVAC contractors, the advice of friends and neighbors..
What we say here is heavily influenced by where we live and what we are
used to. There is no single RIGHT answer that applies to everyone.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more.

False. Modern oil and gas furnaces produce comparable amounts of
emissions. The exact composition is different, but the overall pollution
is the same (the EPA and DOE have studies that confirm this if you want
to look).

Now, I'd love to see the supporting data for the claim that modern gas
and oil furnaces produce the same amount of pollution. Why do you
think many cities have replaced diesel bus fleets with ones that run
natural gas if burning oil is just as clean? Natural gas produces only
water and CO2. And nat gas even produces a third less CO2 than
burning oil. Burning oil, in addition to the above, produces
particulates, nitrous oxide, and sulfates.

http://www.tevisoil.com/fuel/compare.asp
http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels...%209-12-03.pdf

Try looking at the EPA and DOE sites.

Ok. What pages on these sites should we look at?

I don't have specifics handy, but I'm sure you can find them with a
search.


The poster is right. First, you proclaim the smell produced by burning
oil to be a virtue, because it may save you from dying from CO. . Then
you claim oil heat is as clean as nat gas.

You don't read well do you? I indicated that both are not very
detectable when combustion adjustments are proper and neither produces
much CO under those conditions either. It is when combustion adjustments
are out of whack that a lot of CO is produced and it is also under those
abnormal conditions that oil exhaust is much more detectable than gas
exhaust.

Did you ever see an oil
based appliance of any kind vented into a home? Yet millions of nat
gas kitchen stoves work exactly that way. Gee, I wonder why?

Not for the reasons you apparently think.


A whopping total of 28 people a year die in the US from CO from natural
gas heat systems period. I'd like to see any real world evidence that
oil heat systems are any safer overall.

Indeed they are. CO is not the only way a nat. gas heating system can
kill you. Add in the number of deaths from gas explosions to the CO
deaths and then compare to oil. Then compare the number of injuries from
gas explosions to the number of injuries from oil explosions. Then tell
me which is safer.

What is the number of deaths from natural gas versus oil? Can you show us the numbers or is
this just a FUD campaign?

They are out there on one of the government sites. Certainly the ratio
of hundreds of gas explosions to zero oil explosions should be pretty
obvious. Someone was killed in a gas explosion at a motel just a month
ago, and no, I don't count the deliberate gas explosion suicide in NYC.




Nat gas continues to increase
in market share, while oil heat is now down to 4% of new homes. If
it's so unsafe and unreliable, why is that?

1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign
energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers
delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil.
Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported
from foreign sources.

The amount and proportion of natural gas that is imported to the USA is tiny compared to
oil. Much of the imported natural gas comes from right here in North America, not hostile
areas of the world like the Middle East.

How does it compare to the 50% or so of oil that we import? The general
public seems to think we get 99% of our oil from the middle east which
certainly isn't true.


2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe"
in one gas suppliers advertising.

Which supplier are you talking about? What is the definition of "safe?"

It was Connecticut Natural Gas as I recall. I don't know the details
exactly, but their "Clean, Safe, Dependable Natural Gas" campaign only
lasted like six months before mysteriously becoming the "Clean,
Dependable Natural Gas" campaign.

My definition of safe would be free from threat of catastrophic and
potentially fatal failures i.e. explosions.


Deceptive price comparisons that do
not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive
claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the
cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to
low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.

Service charges? Like the $4/month minimum billing fee that I pay for my natural gas
service? My electric company charges more than that so your argument is opposing electric
service too. Even including that fee (which includes service for my hot water heater, gas
grill, stove, and dryer) I'm still way ahead with gas, and I have a very efficient furnace
too.

Electric service is rarely without some usage. With gas service it is
not uncommon to have periods of zero use. Certainly this is not true in
every case, but again, this is only one of many reasons to not use nat.
gas, not the sole reason.




I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern
states whe

1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get
low end gas systems to last longer.

How so?

When the low end gas furnace is only required to operate from November -
February it will clearly have a longer service life than the same unit
required to operate from September to April.


2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower
installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and
blast through.

Huh? What is your source of this claim?

Check with any gas company for the cost of extending gas service to your
street in say CT vs. OK for comparable distances.

When I was in CT I watched the town blast for three days just in the few
hundred foot stretch in front of my house to install storm drains. I
also watched weeks of blasting when widening the main road down the
street. I've watched major construction in my new location in TX as well
and there was no blasting required.

I've also dug a 650' trench in CT for conduit and an 80' trench in TX
for conduit and I can assure you the TX trench went far faster and
easier per foot and required much smaller equipment than the CT trench.




3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from
service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply
minimal gas.

You said they are a monopoly. Why would they need to market? I hear a lot of advertising
by oil dealers, or the collective oil dealers, operating as one.

They market to get you locked into their nat. gas monopoly. They market
to those that use other energy sources.


4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole
due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems
not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest
low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for
the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down
the road.

What are your numbers for your cost comparison?

No handy online reference, but a low end gas furnace installation is at
least a thousand dollars less than a low end oil furnace installation.
The low end gas unit will also have a service life expectancy about half
of the oil unit. Both will be blow the service life of the average units
in each class, but the oil still last longer there as well though the
ratio is not as extreme.

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote:

wrote:

George wrote:
Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly.

Right.

But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.

Completely false. This argument against nat. gas is based on facts about
it's safety, reliability, cleanliness and the service life of the
equipment.

Yeah. Decades of living with natural gas and never one service interuption. Real
unreliable. Houses are just blowing up all over the place that have natural gas
too. I guess everyone is keeping that a big secret from the home insurance
companies. Service life? My furnace has a lifetime warranty on the heat
exchanger. How many oil furnaces have that? The blower of course will die sooner,
but I believe oil furnaces have a blower too.


I have ignored price per BTU since that is constantly in
flux.

You mean your argument. A FUD one at that.



Price is the only argument made in favor of nat. gas that has even short
term validity. All other arguments in favor of nat. gas have been based
on either myths, or comparisons of brand new gas equipment to 50yr old
oil equipment.

That's nonsense. Where do you come up with this crap, now you are claiming "50 yr
old oil equipment" comparisons. Compare an average highest efficiency gas furnace
with an average highest effiency oil furnace. Which is more efficient and wastes
the least amount of energy so that it can heat your house instead?







is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.

I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas
interruption is a big concern.

And I've mentioned several times that I'm referring to the northeast.
It's CT in particular where I lived for 36 years before moving a couple
years ago.

How many gas interruptions did your neighorhood have in Connecticut?


It obviously isn't for 95% of us who
use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone
out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had
electricity go out.

Indeed I did as well and when it did I simply started my generator and
went back about my normal business without more that a few minutes
interruption.

Good for you.



And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key.
An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt
electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole,
all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is
immune from.

You are ignoring the fact that it is possible and economical to provide
backup for the electricity, something that is not possible with the gas.

Are you nuts? You have never heard of automatic standby generators connected to a
gas line? If your electric service is crappy enough to warrant it, that's the way
to go. No fuel to have to worry about storing and engines last a long time with
nat. gas, maintenance is very low too.


Additionally time to repair a damaged electric line is significantly
less than time to repair a damaged gas line in most cases. You also
don't have to spend additional time purging a repaired electric line
before returning it to service as you do with a repaired gas line.

Purging a gas line takes seconds or minutes.



Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage
thing is another red herring.

Tell that to the folks who lived within 10 miles of me that had to spend
several days in a shelter due to a gas outage.

When was that? Where was that? What was the cause?

"Pete C." wrote:

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,

Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other.

First there is no such thing as "big oil", those are big *energy*
companies that are involved in nat. gas as well. The producers all have
similar costs so logically the products they produce have similar costs.
It is not some sort of collusion.

Energy prices are also high at the moment due not only to the middle
east nonsense, but also due to the significant losses and costs
associated with rebuilding the offshore oil rigs and the refineries
severely damaged by Katrina. These are real costs that have to be
recovered.

Too bad gas service doesn't involve refineries.



Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

I think many is more accurate, not "most". I know quite a few people who
only use gas for heating.


is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.

I've found price differences of better than $0.20/gal during record cold
winters when the overall price was around $0.85/gal. I consider that to
be a significant difference. You nat. gas suppliers also have to buy
from the same source.


you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages

No outage here in 35 years.

You're lucky. I've had no oil outage in 36 years and others within about
a 10 mile radius have had to go to shelters during a multi day gas
outage in the winter.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

Good grief! You actually believe that?

Why do you think that so much electric production is being shifted from OIL to
GAS? Hint: Price, Cleanliness, Reliability.


Nat. gas is indeed a petroleum
related product. Those gas flares you see off the side of oil rigs are
nat. gas that has been separated from the oil.

No, that is waste gas from oil production and is not the same cleanliness that you
will find in a natural gas system plumbed to a house.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.

A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Chimneys? Modern efficient gas furnaces do not require "chimneys." They use
ordinary piping to bring fresh outside air in (so you're not sending your heated
home air into the combustion chamber to throw away) and remove exhaust.

The same applies to modern efficient oil furnaces though they do not use
PVC pipe for those vents.

What is the efficiency rating (AFUE) for these "modern efficient oil furnaces?" My
natural gas furnace is about 96% efficient (AFUE), meaning that about 96% of the
energy in the gas becomes actual heat in my house. How does your "efficient oil
furnace" compare?

Well, no, it means that the furnace sends 96% of the energy in the gas
to it's output as heat, whether that actually becomes heat in your home
is dependent on other factors. A good oil fired boiler I looked at was
86.8%, I don't have numbers handy for oil furnaces at the moment. Again,
there are multiple reasons to choose oil over nat. gas.

Pete C.

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.

Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?

There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not
generally used.

They are just about always used on a modern efficient (greater than 90% AFUE)
furnace that has direct vent.

Correct, however they haven't really found their way into non-direct
vent furnaces yet.


The much more common CO detector would detect such
conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Everyone with an attached garage or interior combustion device should have CO
detectors, at least on every level. They aren't expensive and some states are now
mandating them, just like smoke detectors.

Right and if you have gas you can get the combination explosive gas
(nat. gas or propane) and CO detector. Note that with these you have to
mount them high to detect nat. gas and low to detect propane since nat.
gas rises and collects ceiling down and propane sinks and collects floor
up. I think most states have CO detectors mandated in rental housing
already.




Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace
and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to
momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a
sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give
false alarms.

Wind gusts? Back drafts? Yikes! Isn't your oil burner using sealed combustion
to prevent inside air from ever touching the combustion chamber of the furnace?
It would be a shame for the furnace to consume heated house air.

Only a small percentage of furnaces oil or gas are sealed combustion at
present. The Riello burners are particularly nice in a sealed combustion
configuration with their pre and post purge cycles.

Oil furnaces are more prevalent in the northern climates where gas
service is spotty and backup more critical.

Exactly where is this spotty gas service that you speak of?

Anywhere outside urban and close suburban areas. There are vast areas
without nat. gas service and many of those areas are also in colder
climates where backup is more critical. There wasn't gas service where I
was in CT and there isn't gas service where I am now either.


In those areas they are
typically in basements to they are not consuming heated air.

The basement air is sealed from the air upstairs?

To a large extent yes. Warm air also rises so you aren't going to get
warm air from upstairs going downstairs. Indeed waste heat from the
furnace is rejected into the surrounding area and that warmer basement
air will rise and warm the floors above slightly.

Pete C.