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#1
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a 10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace (FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all those things need to go away soon. I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course). This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater, elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything, connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was a Lennox, the other a Tempstar). Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here? |
#2
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
kp wrote: The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a 10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace (FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all those things need to go away soon. I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course). This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater, elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything, connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was a Lennox, the other a Tempstar). Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here? It seems high, a state government agency in Wisconsin has estimated $3500 for an average replacement. You might want to omit the electronic air cleaner since your furnace isn't going to be running all the time. Be sure to have the furnace put on a dedicated electric circuit. If air conditioning makes sense in your area, make it possible to add it later. I had the exhaust run directly through the wall. You may want to draw outside air directly to the furnace to avoid a drafty basement (it will require another pipe). -- Ron |
#3
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
On 2 Aug 2006 13:23:12 -0700, someone wrote:
I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost.... So get quote #3 or even #4, and see if you are still surprised. It may just come down to, if you don't like what they are charging, then don't do it. But if you want the work done, that is what it costs, no matter what you think it "should" cost. Unless you have some plausible evidence that the first two contractors knew each other and discussed their bids with each other, that the two bids came in with numbers in a similar ballpark, BOTH of which were not to your expectations, then it sugests the problem MIGHT be in your expectations. So go get a 3rd bid. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#4
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"kp" writes:
I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course). This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater, elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything, connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was a Lennox, the other a Tempstar). Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here? Doesn't sound that bad to me. It's a big job and running those exhausts and laying pipe for the meter, etc is fairly labor intensive. While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less than methane presently. Or see if geothermal heat pump might be something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs. The gas line you'll need anyway, but it may be worth at least investigating some other heating options since you're sorta starting fresh. Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#5
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
You know the local contractors are aware of the gas line install and
may try making a killing on the residents Just for the heck of it get prices from more folks including sears home depot and lowes. big companies probably charge more on average but are less likely to gouge converting residents.... |
#6
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"kp" wrote in message oups.com... The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a 10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace (FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all those things need to go away soon. I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course). This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater, elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything, connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was a Lennox, the other a Tempstar). Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here? I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a 10 year parts/labor warranty. I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400 which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss. |
#7
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Martik wrote: I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a 10 year parts/labor warranty. I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400 which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss. Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars, but that's not much difference these days from US): Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar) HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250 Elec. air cleaner $600 Installation & removal $3200 This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more. Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a lot of choice. |
#8
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
(Todd H.) wrote:
While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less than methane presently. Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates he http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm Or see if geothermal heat pump might be something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs. Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install. |
#9
Posted to misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"kp" wrote in message oups.com... The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a 10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be outrageous to me. I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace. |
#10
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"kp" wrote in message oups.com... The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a 10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be outrageous to me. I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace. The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far more dangerous than oil. With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed by oil leaks astonishing. Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg. oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas furnace. Pete C. |
#11
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"kp" wrote in message oups.com... Martik wrote: I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a 10 year parts/labor warranty. I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400 which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss. Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars, but that's not much difference these days from US): Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar) HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250 Elec. air cleaner $600 Installation & removal $3200 This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more. Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a lot of choice. That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day! Where in Canada are you? |
#12
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Pete C." wrote in message The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far more dangerous than oil. With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed by oil leaks astonishing. In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil when priced in therms in most regions. I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2. |
#13
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil when priced in therms in most regions. While I agree with you in principle, there are regional variations that make natural gas and fuel oil very close in pricing. There was a time when natural gas was substantially less than fuel oil, but then the utilities built a bunch of peak demand electricity plants fueled by natural gas and that increased demand to the point that the gap is much smaller. All energy is tied anyway, so increases in one for any reason will drive the others. |
#14
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far more dangerous than oil. With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed by oil leaks astonishing. In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil when priced in therms in most regions. The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another $0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents / gal. Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing applicable to both oil and gas. I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2. Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery, something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency deliveries. Pete C. |
#15
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Pete C. wrote: The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another $0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents / gal. Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing applicable to both oil and gas. I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2. Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery, something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency deliveries. Pete C. I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both and in my experience, gas is far more reliable. The core of the problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and then the burner won't light. Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat. I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for even an hour. For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them out of commission. So, why worry about the far more remote possibility of a gas outage? |
#16
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
I am 49 and NEVER had a natural gas outage, now electric
Thats unreliable |
#17
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Martik wrote:
"kp" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars, but that's not much difference these days from US): Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar) HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250 Elec. air cleaner $600 Installation & removal $3200 This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more. That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day! That's why I posed the question. Where in Canada are you? Nova Scotia. |
#18
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
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#19
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." writes:
(Todd H.) wrote: While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less than methane presently. Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates he http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm Woof. Wow... didn't realize pellets had gotten that pricey. Or see if geothermal heat pump might be something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs. Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install. -- -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#20
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
kp wrote: Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar) HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250 I recently replaced a 40 gal forced vent HW for around $900 US. Elec. air cleaner $600 You really don't need that. Installation & removal $3200 That does seem high. Have them itemize what's involved. -- Ron |
#21
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Pete C. wrote: wrote: I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both and in my experience, gas is far more reliable. I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service. The core of the problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and then the burner won't light. The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15 minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot buildup and roughly check the combustion. You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who can't? Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready with another nozzle when it craps out? Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat. Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on since a service call every few years is pretty cheap. I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner. And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class too? Or just use gas and avoid all this? Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with detectable fumes before the CO would get you. And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more. Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can easily last several years without problems. I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections, while an oil furnace cannot. I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for even an hour. I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it does occur it probably affects more customers. You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though. Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of magnitude more prone to outage? For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them out of commission. Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap insurance against those losses. Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from 10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see, what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator? When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas. So, why worry about the far more remote possibility of a gas outage? Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city. BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can put it out. The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe, Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably after a false advertising lawsuit. Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil. Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc? The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner. The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent. Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each year. And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin for me. Pete C. You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can charge,. just like the water company. |
#23
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#24
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.
Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based on age of tank. |
#25
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
" wrote:
Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks. That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get "tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty / leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source. Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue. Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two. Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based on age of tank. And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction, just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable. Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far cry from the old burners as well. Pete C. |
#26
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Pete. let me summarize for you: 1 - I've lived in homes with both oil heat and nat gas heat. In over 40 years experience, I've found nat gas to be consistently more reliable. I've never had to make a single call for service where a natural gas furnace stopped working. On the other hand, I have made many emergency sevice calls for oil heat due to clogged nozzles and failed pumps. 2 - In 40 years, I have never had nat gas service go out. I'd like to know where you live that you think nat gas is so unreliable and what exactly makes that nat gas system unreliable. IMO, for just about all, the very small chance of losing nat gas service pales in comparison to electric outages that most of us routinely live with. 3 - Most people do not have backup generators, which come with their own set of new problems. And they obviously have made the judgement that their needs, probablilities, etc don't justify having one. 4 - As to the risk of dying from carbon monoxide from nat gas, vs oil heat, here is some data: How great is the risk of carbon monoxide in my home from natural gas? From 1979 to 1988, there were 578 deaths in the United States that were attributed to natural gas (out of 56,000 total carbon monoxide-related deaths). This is an average of 50 deaths per year. You are more likely to die from a lightning strike (approximately 80 deaths per year). http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/acci...ath/deaths.htm Estimated 130 people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning in the US 2001 ((US Consumer Product Safety Commission, National Electronic Injury Surveillance System, 2003) Estimated 58% (75) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning caused by heating systems in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety) Estimated 36.4% (28) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide poisoning caused by natural gas heating systems in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product Safety) So, of the whopping 130 people who die each year from non-fire CO, 75 are caused by all heating systems, and of those 28 are attributable to a natural gas system. That should put to rest the notion that natural gas systems are more prone to CO problems. Compare this to the 50K people killed on our roads each year to put it in perspective. 5 - If nat gas were unsafe compared to other heating system, insurance companies would charge higher rates or not insure buildings that use it, yet this is not an issue. 6 - Your suggestion that most homeowners should know how to change nozzles in a furnace that stops working in the middle of the night is bizarre for 2 reasons. First, clearly most homeowners do not have that level of experience and knowledge. Second, it's very strange for someone so concerned about the safety of nat gas vs oil to be recommending that most homeowners start fooling around with their own oil burner. IMO, that is far more likely to result in injury or a fire than having a nat gas furnace ever would. 7 - People can make their own choices based on their needs and priorities. But to suggest that nat gas is unsafe or unreliable compared to oil heat is bogus. |
#27
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Robert Gammon wrote: Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come heating season, the CO killed them. Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot, but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter and all works well. Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........ |
#28
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
wrote in message ups.com... Robert Gammon wrote: Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come heating season, the CO killed them. Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. |
#29
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Martik" writes:
Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. -- -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#30
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. |
#31
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message m... Todd H. wrote: "Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would shut off the gas? |
#32
Posted to misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Robert Gammon wrote:
Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot, but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter and all works well. Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........ Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO. CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due to: 1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming. 2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas. People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil stove or dryer?). When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions, gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source unlike gas leaks. And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or 2. Pete C. |
#33
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
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#34
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Robert Gammon wrote:
Todd H. wrote: "Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of. Pete C. |
#35
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message m... Todd H. wrote: "Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would shut off the gas? Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas. This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace. |
#36
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message m... Todd H. wrote: "Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would shut off the gas? There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not generally used. The much more common CO detector would detect such conditions if properly installed and maintained. Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give false alarms. Pete C. |
#37
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote: Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot, but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter and all works well. Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........ Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO. CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due to: 1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming. 2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas. People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil stove or dryer?). When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions, gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source unlike gas leaks. And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or 2. Pete C. And i think that the biggest single risk with gas furnaces is the lack of annual inspections. The heat exchanger walls rust thru, then combustion products fill the house, and CO death results. I expect that THIS is the SINGLE largest cause of gas heat deaths in the US. Worker leaving a rag in the flue is a very low probability event. The issue for lots of folks is that replacing the furnace is the solution to a heat exchanger leak and that is HORRIBLY expensive. Many simply do not have the money to make it happen, so they die of CO poisoning. My parents had an oil burner most of their lives. I remember the smell. Natural gas or Propane for me. |
#38
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message news Martik wrote: "Robert Gammon" wrote in message m... Todd H. wrote: "Martik" writes: Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we have 2 CO detectors. Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god, lives would be saved. Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace. A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on top of the roof. Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would shut off the gas? Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas. This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace. I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented thru PVC and a draft inducer fan. Would this furnace have a safety shutoff. |
#39
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
Robert Gammon wrote:
Pete C. wrote: Robert Gammon wrote: Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot, but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter and all works well. Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........ Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO. CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due to: 1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming. 2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas. People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil stove or dryer?). When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions, gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source unlike gas leaks. And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or 2. Pete C. And i think that the biggest single risk with gas furnaces is the lack of annual inspections. The heat exchanger walls rust thru, then combustion products fill the house, and CO death results. I expect that THIS is the SINGLE largest cause of gas heat deaths in the US. Worker leaving a rag in the flue is a very low probability event. The issue for lots of folks is that replacing the furnace is the solution to a heat exchanger leak and that is HORRIBLY expensive. Many simply do not have the money to make it happen, so they die of CO poisoning. My parents had an oil burner most of their lives. I remember the smell. Natural gas or Propane for me. I have never found any smell at all associated with either gas or oil *inside* the living area with quality equipment. In the same service room with the furnace I can readily detect either gas (more specifically the odorant) or oil. If you smell it in the living area you have a problem that needs investigation and repair. Pete C. |
#40
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Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs
"Pete C." wrote: wrote: Robert Gammon wrote: Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace. And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come heating season, the CO killed them. Again the fact that oil combustion products other than CO are far more human detectable than those of gas means that that incident may not have resulted in deaths had it been an oil furnace. In other words the oil furnace burns dirtier and pollutes more. The nasty building fumes would have very likely driven the occupants out before a lethal CO exposure could occur. Cite? You *DO* have carbon monoxide detectors, don't you? |
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