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#1
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Natural gas vs LP gas?
The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're
building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. |
#2
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You can go with LP now and convert the unit to natural later, most boilers
and furnaces are easily converted. Just verify that it is possible when you purchase the heating equipment. Greg |
#3
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maxinemovies wrote:
The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. Hi, I am in Alberta Canada. When I had my cabin built, I had to run ~400 feet to bring the gas to my cabin. It cost ~1000,00 CAD. Tony |
#5
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Around here you sign with a LP company and they supply the tank but you have
to buy from them at their unregulated price. Also they can lie about the price. So get it in writing. "maxinemovies" email on wrote in message ... The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. |
#6
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Art wrote:
Around here you sign with a LP company and they supply the tank but you have to buy from them at their unregulated price. Also they can lie about the price. So get it in writing. "maxinemovies" email on wrote in message .. . The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. Hi, LP has summer blend and winter blend. If you're in cold climate, summer blend left over in tank may freeze. Tony |
#7
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If you choose LP don't run copper lines because if you ever decide to
run NG, you will have to replace all the lines. NG and copper don't like each other. Remember also that you can't just switch lines and go, all orifices on each device much be changed or you could have a fire. I use LP and I lease the tank from the company for a one time fee of $50 and they come out whenever they feel like it and fill it up then send me a bill. I'd like to switch over to NG just to get the big ugly tank out of my yard but I have all copper pipes so I'd have to run all new piping then change orifices on furnace, dryer and fireplaces. It's not a fun project just to remove an eyesore. I like the independence also, if the line is cut or shut off for some reason in the neighborhood, I still have heat. maxinemovies wrote: The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. |
#8
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"Mike" wrote in message ups.com... If you choose LP don't run copper lines because if you ever decide to run NG, you will have to replace all the lines. NG and copper don't like each other. Remember also that you can't just switch lines and go, all orifices on each device much be changed or you could have a fire. I use LP and I lease the tank from the company for a one time fee of $50 and they come out whenever they feel like it and fill it up then send me a bill. I'd like to switch over to NG just to get the big ugly tank out of my yard but I have all copper pipes so I'd have to run all new piping then change orifices on furnace, dryer and fireplaces. It's not a fun project just to remove an eyesore. I like the independence also, if the line is cut or shut off for some reason in the neighborhood, I still have heat. Actually.... In the past couple of years most areas are allowing copper to be used in NG situations. *I* wont do it, since its prob going to be one of those things that over time, we find out wasnt a good idea, and yes, I know why you dont use copper with NG in areas with the "dirty" gas. Its in the IGC book. However, the one thing that no one has spoke of, is the gas diametric that will have to be drawn up for the home, the difference in BTUs between the two gases, and how if they go copper with LG, it will be too small to use with NG. The OP should for all intents, go with NG since its fairly close, the gas lines can be ran one time and correctly, AND they get more BTUs for their dollar. SURE, you can convert a furnace to LPG, but you do know that the total BTU rating goes DOWN. They have to burn more to get the same they get with NG. With NG, its actually got more flexibility than LPG, and you dont have to worry about tank location, tank filling, tank accessability, etc. Im in the biz, and *IF* I HAD to chose one or the other, and thankfully I dont (all electric and glad of it) it would be natural gas hands down. maxinemovies wrote: The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. |
#9
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Ng should cost less per Btu. go with the cheaper fuel
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#11
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Some apliances are made easy to convert for Ng-propane with kits, some
are not and will need alot more work and cost. Check everything out if you want that future option in your apliances. Hiring someone for a future conversion could be expensive. I looked at an American Standard furnace that offered a simple conversion kit , burner jets and gas valve components and other brands that made no mention of it as I was looking at dual emergency fuel. Propane is usualy more costly to use but this depends on your area. In some areas of the US electricity is cheapest, but only a few. For most Ng is best you need to run numbers on Btu costs of all fuels of your area. |
#12
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maxinemovies wrote:
The gas company has lines about a hundred yards from where we're building our house. They say it will be SIX WEEKS before they can tell us what it's going to cost to bring it in to our property. I reality 6 weeks is not too long to wait and see. After all you are planning on having that home for a lot more than 6 weeks. On the other hand, we could just go with LP gas. My feeling is that I'd rather have natural gas even if it costs a bit to get it initially. LP gas also has an initial cost for tank, etc., doesn't it? Any ideas on what it's going to cost them to bring the natural gas lines in to our property? Educated guesses? And opinions on which we should go with, natural or LP? Many thanks. Maxi Email addy upon request. -- Joseph Meehan Dia's Muire duit |
#13
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In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
If you go iwth NG, run a line to the patio for a gas grill. Do this regardless of whether you get LP or natural gas. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#14
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When we had LP a few years ago, we paid a deposit on a tank, but it remained
the property of the propane company. NG is a lot more convenient (probably cheaper, too -- plus you don't have to schedule refills), but I'd go LP until you can get a quote on running the line. If the quote is too high, you still have your LP tank. |
#16
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"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message NEITHER!! Go with clean, warm, dependable OIL!!!!! ;-] Do you actually believe all that hype? A Btu is a Btu. What makes oil any warmer? Yes, it is cleaner than years ago, but I still have to have my burner cleaned every 1000 gallons or so. If I could, I'd switch to NG today yet. Ed |
#17
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Hi, LP has summer blend and winter blend. If you're in cold climate, summer blend left over in tank may freeze. Tony ============ Say What.....? Do a.. google.. and look up the freezing point of Propane... Not sure but it is at least a minus 300 degrees... Bob Griffiths. |
#18
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 03:04:04 GMT, "Art"
wrote: Around here you sign with a LP company and they supply the tank but you have to buy from them at their unregulated price. Also they can lie about the price. So get it in writing. =============== Very True... I bought my own 400 pound (100 gallon ) tank just last week... My home is a total electric home so I use electric heat...BUT when I wanted to heat my woodshop I went with a NG Furnace which I converted to Propane... Paid 1.79 a gallon in Novenber for a gallon of Propane...1.92 in January and got hit 2.68 a gallon in early March... after I got the bill in March I started calling LP dealers in the area...proce per gallon has gone up...but the range was from 2.10 to 2.30 ...a good 10 percent less then what I had paid from the supplier WHO OWNED the tank... Next year IF I DO NOT CONVERT to Electric heat I will at least be able to shop around for the best price or lock into a seasonal rate that is for the entire heating season... BTW electric works out cheaper if Propane sells for 2.00 a gallon... based on the number of gallons of Propane I needed in the shop this year..based on BTU's per gallon vs cost of Electricity (BTU's/Kwh).. not even factoring in the effeciency of electric vs propane... Bb Griffiths |
#19
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In article , Bob G. wrote:
after I got the bill in March I started calling LP dealers in the area...proce per gallon has gone up...but the range was from 2.10 to 2.30 ...a good 10 percent less then what I had paid from the supplier WHO OWNED the tank... That's normal. Next year IF I DO NOT CONVERT to Electric heat I will at least be able to shop around for the best price Don't bet on it. If the supplier owns the tank, it's likely that you can't get anyone else to fill it. That's why you got better price quotes from the other suppliers: they were quoting you the rate for filling homeowner-owned tanks, but you're currently paying the rate for a supplier-owned tank. Check out the cost of buying the tank. It may take ten years before you save enough on the price of fuel to break even. or lock into a seasonal rate that is for the entire heating season... Not likely. Why would the supplier agree to sell to you at a discount? He owns your tank. He knows you can't buy the gas from anyone else. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#20
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Thanks to everyone for your replies. I'll show all of this to my
husband and we'll go from there. I read this ng every day and learn new things all the time. You're all the best! Maxi Email addy upon request. |
#21
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If you use propane you may want to ask for a larger tank
than you think necessary. I have a house in Michigan with nominal 330 gallon propane tank that for safety can only be filled to 85% level, about 280 gallons. The tank is located in the back yard behind a small barn so that its size or appearance is not a problem. I use 420 to 480 gallons per winter. If I had requested a 500 gallon tank (425 gallons)I could fill up when prices are low in August, top off the tank in November, and avoid the December through March price rise. Most of my neighbors use the same supplier that I use because it is the cheapest. Michigan requires that I pay to lease the tank from the owner but it is only a dollar a year. They refused to increase the tank size unless I required a refill every month. |
#22
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Bob G. wrote:
Hi, LP has summer blend and winter blend. If you're in cold climate, summer blend left over in tank may freeze. Tony ============ Say What.....? Do a.. google.. and look up the freezing point of Propane... Not sure but it is at least a minus 300 degrees... Bob Griffiths. Hi, Really? Ever had 100% moisture free anything? Ever remember car carburetor throat covered with ice in winter in old days? Gasoline freezes as well. Anything will freeze at 300 degree what? F, C or K? I live in cold climate my cottage neighbors who have LP suppy always worry about freeze while I am on NG with worry free. LP contains more Butane in winter. Tony |
#23
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Tony,
The problem isn't that propane freezes, it is that the boiling pressure of the propane in the tank varies with temperature. Propane normally burns at 10-11 inches WC. 14 Inches WC is 1/2 psi. If the pressure in the tank drops too low, the burner won't fire. Propane boils at around 6 degrees as I recall at atmospheric pressure (A GUESS!!). If it gets too cold outside, something else needs to be added (Butane) so there is enough pressure in the tank to make the burner fire. That is why the LP gas company has a "Winter Mix" Stretch PS: If i can find better information on the boiling point of propane, I will post it tomorrow. I will have to look it up. We had a customer in Pennsylvania who had propane at his factory, and when it got very cold outside, he had to reduce operations because the propane wouldn't boil fast enough to fire his boiler. |
#24
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"stretch" wrote in message burner fire. That is why the LP gas company has a "Winter Mix" Stretch PS: If i can find better information on the boiling point of propane, I will post it tomorrow. I will have to look it up. Gas BP °C State at 20°C As LPG propane - 42 gas pressu BP: state: 14 atm 38°C liquid butane - 0.5 gas pressu BP: state: 2.6 atm 38°C liquid |
#25
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Hi, Really? Ever had 100% moisture free anything? Ever remember car carburetor throat covered with ice in winter in old days? Gasoline freezes as well. Anything will freeze at 300 degree what? F, C or K? I live in cold climate my cottage neighbors who have LP suppy always worry about freeze while I am on NG with worry free. LP contains more Butane in winter. Tony Strange I just did a quick search on Propane and did not find the freezing point...they only listed the boiling point...which was minus 44 degrees F... Butane on the other hand boils at positive 32 degrees F... So BOTH gasses will be boiling when the air temp reaches 32 deg F..or freezing... Yes I realize that moisture can get into almost everything..including gas lines....BUT it would take a heck of a lot of moisture in a pretty small gas line to stop the flow of gas...not impossible I will admit but unlikely ... Bob Griffiths |
#26
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Check out the cost of buying the tank. It may take ten years before you save enough on the price of fuel to break even. I just purchased a tank a few weeks ago...400 pound tank...a little over 100 gallons..brand new @275 bucks... Just the difference in my last 100 gallon purchase would have been 60 odd bucks..since I filled it 3 times last winter payback time is slightly less then 10 years ....more like about 1-2 years... Not likely. Why would the supplier agree to sell to you at a discount? He owns your tank. He knows you can't buy the gas from anyone else. All very true that is why I purchase my own tank... Bob Griffiths |
#27
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Small Propane tanks can freeze at 70f or so , ask a roofer that uses 20
lb tanks with 300000 btu torchdown burners. Even using a small cilinder on my weed burner it gets cold when it is hot out. |
#28
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Butane boils at 31.1 degrees F @ atmospheric pressure Propane boils at -42.1 degrees F @ atmospheric pressure. (OOPS!) I don't know what the boiling point is at say 20 PSIG gauge. I know when charging a/c units, as I remove freon from the drum, the remaining liquid in the drum gets cold. It is harder to evaporate the remaining Freon. The same thing happens with propane. The colder it is outside, the more gas you use and the higher the draw from the tank. The remaining LPG in the tank acts as a refrigerant and the pressure goes down The regulator at the tank is at some hegher intermediate pressure. The regulator at the house is normally set at 11 Inches water column. How well the propane evaporates will depend on the outdoor air temperature, the amount of liquid in the tank (as a heat sink), the surface area of the liquid in the tank and the surface area of the tank (the size of the tank) to absorb heat from the outside. The pressure at the burner will also depend on pressure drop in the piping. They could also add butane to the LPG in the summer but not in the winter. We used to buy it as LPG, not as propane. I can see how that would affect things. Boy, a little research first would have been good instead of shooting my mouth off first! :-). I'm glad that I admitted it was a GUESS in my first post! Stretch |
#29
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In article , Bob G wrote:
Check out the cost of buying the tank. It may take ten years before you save enough on the price of fuel to break even. I just purchased a tank a few weeks ago...400 pound tank...a little over 100 gallons..brand new @275 bucks... Here in central Indiana where I live, a hundred gallons is a *very* small tank for a residence. You'd be filling that sucker at least once a week in January and February. In Minnesota, probably more like every two or three days. Lots of people around here have *thousand*-gallon tanks. Try pricing one of *those*. Just the difference in my last 100 gallon purchase would have been 60 odd bucks.. IIRC, you posted that there was a difference of some 30 cents a gallon; that makes a difference of 30 dollars per hundred gallons, not 60. since I filled it 3 times last winter payback time is slightly less then 10 years ....more like about 1-2 years... If you can get through a winter on three fills of a hundred-gallon tank, then you should quit complaining and count your blessings. :-) Either your house is unbelievably well insulated, or you live in a climate with *very* mild winters. We're in a home with natural gas now, but in our previous home with LP, we needed five and sometimes six fills of a FIVE hundred gallon tank to get through the fall and winter. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#30
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message . com... In article , Bob G wrote: Check out the cost of buying the tank. It may take ten years before you save enough on the price of fuel to break even. I just purchased a tank a few weeks ago...400 pound tank...a little over 100 gallons..brand new @275 bucks... Here in central Indiana where I live, a hundred gallons is a *very* small tank for a residence. You'd be filling that sucker at least once a week in January and February. In Minnesota, probably more like every two or three days. Lots of people around here have *thousand*-gallon tanks. Try pricing one of *those*. Just the difference in my last 100 gallon purchase would have been 60 odd bucks.. IIRC, you posted that there was a difference of some 30 cents a gallon; that makes a difference of 30 dollars per hundred gallons, not 60. since I filled it 3 times last winter payback time is slightly less then 10 years ....more like about 1-2 years... If you can get through a winter on three fills of a hundred-gallon tank, then you should quit complaining and count your blessings. :-) Either your house is unbelievably well insulated, or you live in a climate with *very* mild winters. We're in a home with natural gas now, but in our previous home with LP, we needed five and sometimes six fills of a FIVE hundred gallon tank to get through the fall and winter. gee, now i don't feel so bad. i have a 500 lp gallon tank (buried) that i fill once/year. i haven't turned my heat on this winter yet, only using a couple of gas fireplaces to take the chill out of the air when needed. does burying the tank make it work better (less consumption), in that the air temp really is ground temp, causing a higher boiling off temp? -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? regards, charlie cave creek, az |
#31
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If you can get through a winter on three fills of a hundred-gallon tank, then you should quit complaining and count your blessings. :-) Either your house is unbelievably well insulated, or you live in a climate with *very* mild winters. We're in a home with natural gas now, but in our previous home with LP, we needed five and sometimes six fills of a FIVE hundred gallon tank to get through the fall and winter. =============== Sorry BUT I am not heating my home ... The building I am heating is my garage/woodshop.... and I keep the thermostat set at 45-50 degrees ..until I am out in the building .. Bob |
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