So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:45:02 GMT, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:

So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott

Normal.

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:45:02 GMT, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:

So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott


Drill choice?

Oren

Uh... I hate to ask at this point, but if the backer board had a
textured side, you installed it UP. right?

In article . com,
says...
Uh... I hate to ask at this point, but if the backer board had a
textured side, you installed it UP. right?

Dots up (they mark the nominal screw locations). The side the
sticker is on is down, IIRC.

--
Keith

Yep, Dot side up.

Still PIA to put the Screws in. Even if on the dot...

Scott-
"Keith Williams" wrote in message
T...
In article . com,
says...
Uh... I hate to ask at this point, but if the backer board had a
textured side, you installed it UP. right?

Dots up (they mark the nominal screw locations). The side the
sticker is on is down, IIRC.

--
Keith

We used a Cordless 18v Makita... Drilled the Counter Sink holes then went
back and drilled the screw shaft hole. This allows the backer board to be
sucked down to the subfloor.

Scott-
"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:45:02 GMT, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:

So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for
tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott


Drill choice?

Oren

I use the alternate recommendation of 1-1/4 inch galvanized roofing
nails. A lot easier and that hardibacker isn't going anyplace. And the
job will be a lot easier at some time in the future if anyone wants to
take it up.

Scott Townsend wrote:
Yep, Dot side up.

Still PIA to put the Screws in. Even if on the dot...

Scott-
"Keith Williams" wrote in message
T...
In article . com,
says...
Uh... I hate to ask at this point, but if the backer board had a
textured side, you installed it UP. right?
Dots up (they mark the nominal screw locations). The side the
sticker is on is down, IIRC.

--
Keith

How thick a coat of mortar/adhesive will you use? Thinner than the
protruding screw heads? Tom
Scott Townsend wrote:
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott

"Scott Townsend" wrote in
. net:

So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for
tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to
self counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling
holes for the Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the
screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the
Screws to Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott



You don't screw it in. You nail it with galv roofing nails.


Excerpt from:
http://www.jameshardie.com/backerboa...r_installation
..php



FASTENERS

For floors and walls:

* Minimum 1-1/4" long corrosion-resistant roofing nails.
* Minimum 1-1/4" long No. 8 x 0.375" HD self-drilling corrosion-
resistant ribbed waferhead screws.
* If compliance with ANSI A108.11 is not required, minimum 1" long
No. 8 x 0.323" HD self-drilling corrosion-resistant ribbed buglehead
screws may be used for floors.
* If applying 1/2" Hardibacker cement board over gypsum, use minimum
1-3/4" long corrosion-resistant roofing nails.

In article ,
says...
Yep, Dot side up.

Still PIA to put the Screws in. Even if on the dot...

After drilling pilot holes for a bathroom-and-a-half, laundry, and
a couple of closets, I tried just screwing the "backer-on" screws
in directly. I had a few that didn't sink all the way (used a
spackling knife to "feel" for the heads and had to replace them.
It went pretty yeasy, except when I was a little out of position
and the driver slipped; nice blood blister on my left index finger.
:-(

--
Keith

This concern over the heads protruding is unnecessary remember you are
going to have at the very, very least a 16th of an inch of adheasion
material to lay the tile in, maybe/probably much more depending what
you use. DO NOT USE NAILS on the floor the will not hold... your
primary concern about the skrews should be that thy are in snug with NO
movement if the head is sticking out slightly dont sweat it.
krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
Yep, Dot side up.

Still PIA to put the Screws in. Even if on the dot...

After drilling pilot holes for a bathroom-and-a-half, laundry, and
a couple of closets, I tried just screwing the "backer-on" screws
in directly. I had a few that didn't sink all the way (used a
spackling knife to "feel" for the heads and had to replace them.
It went pretty yeasy, except when I was a little out of position
and the driver slipped; nice blood blister on my left index finger.
:-(

--
Keith

In article .com,
says...
This concern over the heads protruding is unnecessary remember you are
going to have at the very, very least a 16th of an inch of adheasion
material to lay the tile in, maybe/probably much more depending what
you use.

Perhaps, but it's easier to make sure there is *nothing*
protruding. Screws are cheap.

DO NOT USE NAILS on the floor the will not hold...

Once the screws are seen snugging the board down to the floor, one
understands that nails won't work. Again, screws are cheap.

your
primary concern about the skrews should be that thy are in snug with NO
movement if the head is sticking out slightly dont sweat it.

It was easier to rescrew those sticking up, or replace the screws.

--
Keith

Scott Townsend wrote:
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott


Hmm - I just screw it down w/o pre-drilling. I have used an 18V
Milwaukee drill and more recently a Makita 18VLTX impact driver. I used
the backer board screws. I drive them flush or slightly below the
surface. This leaves a bit of ground up, displaced, material on the
surface. I knock that off with a 6" putty knife and sweep the floor
before I begin the tile job. I prefer the screws with square drive.

On 25 Jul 2006 20:33:09 +0200, No wrote:

Scott Townsend wrote:
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott


Hmm - I just screw it down w/o pre-drilling. I have used an 18V
Milwaukee drill and more recently a Makita 18VLTX impact driver. I used
the backer board screws. I drive them flush or slightly below the
surface. This leaves a bit of ground up, displaced, material on the
surface. I knock that off with a 6" putty knife and sweep the floor
before I begin the tile job. I prefer the screws with square drive.

Which leads us to ask; Is the drill stalling when you try to
drive the screws all the way in, or are they stripping the holes?

Scott Townsend wrote:
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott

WOW you need help.

First off are you in USA or Canada OR what. This is for floor right? or
are you putiing this stuff in the shower or tub areas?

Dont use that stuff on the floor, find proper sub floor. There is no
need for that, do you honestley think this will save your floor, in
won't. Im a builder I know. Water and air are two things you can't
compete with and what will happen is you will transfer water damage
from the center of the floor to the walls thus causing leaks to run
inside your walls rather than just the floor where you walk and you can
tell when something isn't right. Your subfloor should be a good
thickness i don't mean 1/2 inch but a good 1/4 inch and the right ply
subfloor (wood). In case no one has told you *Hint* you can glue it
down just maybe? *Hint*. It all depends on the crafmanship and the type
of tile. Your floor should be wood and that should most surley be
screwed off first in 8 inch increments, with no heads hanging out and
hammer in the stubborn ones. This will eliminate movement and squeeks.
Then lay down your sub, a craftsman would be able to glue it with a
bull dog adhesive must be the right type, there is a percission way of
placing the glue to keep it level with out waves in floor and so on. If
your not comfortable with the glue then use SUB FLOOR RING NAILS
nothing else. If you prior screwing efforts wasn;t working its most
likely your strippng them or there is not enough bite material
underneath and may require you to find the joisting and screw in that
and but not least just poor choice in screws. There are differences
like course, fine, clean neck (which will not work) they must be fully
threaded. Is your main floor plywood or planking this would make a hell
of a difference.

Hope this helps you!

Scott Townsend wrote:
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott
Always use screws. Screw the drywall screws in so there is a Quarter
inch sticking out on all screws on each piece of backerboard and then
countersink them

According to Al Bundy :
You don't screw it in. You nail it with galv roofing nails.

Your reference also mentioned screws.

Why wouldn't you use screws?

I use 2 1/2" #8 deck screws, no predrill. That may be overkill, but the
subfloors NEVER move, they wouldn't dare ;-)

Standard drywall screws are thin with shallow threads, and I think
too short. As such, under these sorts of stresses (eg: differential
joist movement), they can pull out.

I've seen 3/4" plywood floors done with 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" #10 "standard"
screws that can be (or have) popped out with relatively little difficulty.
Hence my preference for 2 1/2" deck screws. Better threads and longer
length.

Phillips heads are evil, and should be banned ;-)

Long live square head deck screws!

I wouldn't dream of using nails. Unless ring shanked. But screws
are better overall.

[My 12V dewalt is fully capable of taking a 3" #12 robertson/square
head and driving it all the way through a 2x4, head and all without
any predrilling. It only stops when it runs out of thread in contact
with the lumber - the shank - on the other side ;-).]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thank you all for your replies.

I am using the HardiBacker Cement type board for the floor, 1/2" Its on top
of 3/4" T&G Plywood on top of the Manufactured I Beam Joists.

the Screws I've uses are 'special' for the backer board. They are in the
Tile section at Home Chepo. Supposed to have some barb type fins on the
underside of the head to help counter sync the screws.

They are Philips, and I've either stripped the head or Broken the bit trying
to get them counter sunk.

We've used Cordless, and corded Drills. The best was actually a low speed,
High tork Right angle drill. Well after predrilling the holes the Makita
18v Cordless was fine.

Thank you again for your replies!
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message
. net...
So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for
tile?

Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self
counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the
Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.

Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to
Counter-sink.

I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.

Thanks,
Scott

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Al Bundy :
You don't screw it in. You nail it with galv roofing nails.

Your reference also mentioned screws.

Why wouldn't you use screws?

I use 2 1/2" #8 deck screws, no predrill. That may be overkill, but the
subfloors NEVER move, they wouldn't dare ;-)

You can do that with hardibacker? Deck screws would be impossible.
Even self countersinking screws have a hard time with it.

http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html

Scott Townsend wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I am using the HardiBacker Cement type board for the floor, 1/2" Its on top
of 3/4" T&G Plywood on top of the Manufactured I Beam Joists.

the Screws I've uses are 'special' for the backer board. They are in the
Tile section at Home Chepo. Supposed to have some barb type fins on the
underside of the head to help counter sync the screws.

They are Philips, and I've either stripped the head or Broken the bit trying
to get them counter sunk.

We've used Cordless, and corded Drills. The best was actually a low speed,
High tork Right angle drill. Well after predrilling the holes the Makita
18v Cordless was fine.

Thank you again for your replies!
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message

As stated before the best way with hardibacker is to use nails:

http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html

If you have a really strong drill you might be able to use their
recommended screws.

Rich256 wrote:
Scott Townsend wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I am using the HardiBacker Cement type board for the floor, 1/2" Its
on top of 3/4" T&G Plywood on top of the Manufactured I Beam Joists.

the Screws I've uses are 'special' for the backer board. They are in
the Tile section at Home Chepo. Supposed to have some barb type fins
on the underside of the head to help counter sync the screws.

They are Philips, and I've either stripped the head or Broken the bit
trying to get them counter sunk.

We've used Cordless, and corded Drills. The best was actually a low
speed, High tork Right angle drill. Well after predrilling the holes
the Makita 18v Cordless was fine.

Thank you again for your replies!
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message

As stated before the best way with hardibacker is to use nails:

http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html

If you have a really strong drill you might be able to use their
recommended screws.
For the novice without access to a power nailer (electric or air
driven), nailing any Hardi product is an invitation to disaster. home
handiperson NEED to stick with screws and pre-drill with a carbide
tipped drill bit.

Way to easy to miss the nail and BANG the Harid product, fracturing off
the corner, forcing you to remove the product piece entirely and start
again.

Pro installers can do this with their power equipment. Folks who have
done this over many many jobs can swing a 16oz hammer JUST right to make
this happen without damage to the board. The rest of us MUST stick with
screws, else we face disaster.

Robert Gammon wrote:
Rich256 wrote:
Scott Townsend wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I am using the HardiBacker Cement type board for the floor, 1/2" Its
on top of 3/4" T&G Plywood on top of the Manufactured I Beam Joists.

the Screws I've uses are 'special' for the backer board. They are in
the Tile section at Home Chepo. Supposed to have some barb type fins
on the underside of the head to help counter sync the screws.

They are Philips, and I've either stripped the head or Broken the bit
trying to get them counter sunk.

We've used Cordless, and corded Drills. The best was actually a low
speed, High tork Right angle drill. Well after predrilling the holes
the Makita 18v Cordless was fine.

Thank you again for your replies!
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message

As stated before the best way with hardibacker is to use nails:

http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html

If you have a really strong drill you might be able to use their
recommended screws.
For the novice without access to a power nailer (electric or air
driven), nailing any Hardi product is an invitation to disaster. home
handiperson NEED to stick with screws and pre-drill with a carbide
tipped drill bit.

Way to easy to miss the nail and BANG the Harid product, fracturing off
the corner, forcing you to remove the product piece entirely and start
again.

Pro installers can do this with their power equipment. Folks who have
done this over many many jobs can swing a 16oz hammer JUST right to make
this happen without damage to the board. The rest of us MUST stick with
screws, else we face disaster.

James Hardi product?

Maybe so but I sure could not get those screws to countersink with the
equipment I had.

I have laid a lot of it with nails and never had any problem like you
describe. The hardest part I thought was to hit it hard enough to keep
the head flush and it is one hell of a lot of nails.

(Chris Lewis) wrote in
:

According to Al Bundy :
You don't screw it in. You nail it with galv roofing nails.

Your reference also mentioned screws.

You're right.


Why wouldn't you use screws?

When I fixed the last "see through to back of other shower wall" I tried
screws. Always prefer screws. When I had the head issues, mfgr's
instructions said roofing nails OK. Since it was a wall and not floor, I
went for it. Worked fine without all the predrilling and countersinking.

For a floor, I'd want them screws and would pre-whatever is necessary.


I use 2 1/2" #8 deck screws, no predrill. That may be overkill, but
the subfloors NEVER move, they wouldn't dare ;-)

Standard drywall screws are thin with shallow threads, and I think
too short.

Damn things are so thin nowadays, sometimes they snap going in deep wood
with the longer screws not threaded to the top. You pull out some 3"
screws from old cabinets and it looks & feels like a bolt compared to one
today.

Too short? Can't find them where I am now but back in VT I used to get
them up 8 & 9" long. Used them for various things like restoring old real
wood shutters where the rails have to be replaced and screwed through the
wide styles.

As such, under these sorts of stresses (eg: differential
joist movement), they can pull out.

I've seen 3/4" plywood floors done with 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" #10
"standard" screws that can be (or have) popped out with relatively
little difficulty. Hence my preference for 2 1/2" deck screws. Better
threads and longer length.

Phillips heads are evil, and should be banned ;-)

Long live square head deck screws!

I wouldn't dream of using nails. Unless ring shanked. But screws
are better overall.

[My 12V dewalt is fully capable of taking a 3" #12 robertson/square
head and driving it all the way through a 2x4, head and all without
any predrilling. It only stops when it runs out of thread in contact
with the lumber - the shank - on the other side ;-).]

In article MD4yg.180999$mF2.96423@bgtnsc04-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net, says...
Scott Townsend wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I am using the HardiBacker Cement type board for the floor, 1/2" Its on top
of 3/4" T&G Plywood on top of the Manufactured I Beam Joists.

the Screws I've uses are 'special' for the backer board. They are in the
Tile section at Home Chepo. Supposed to have some barb type fins on the
underside of the head to help counter sync the screws.

They are Philips, and I've either stripped the head or Broken the bit trying
to get them counter sunk.

We've used Cordless, and corded Drills. The best was actually a low speed,
High tork Right angle drill. Well after predrilling the holes the Makita
18v Cordless was fine.

Thank you again for your replies!
"Scott Townsend" wrote in message

As stated before the best way with hardibacker is to use nails:

I'd *never* use nails. Screws are far more secure.

http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html

If you have a really strong drill you might be able to use their
recommended screws.

Might? I had little problem with my Porter Cable 14.4V drill.

--
Keith.

According to Al Bundy :
Standard drywall screws are thin with shallow threads, and I think
too short.

Damn things are so thin nowadays, sometimes they snap going in deep wood
with the longer screws not threaded to the top. You pull out some 3"
screws from old cabinets and it looks & feels like a bolt compared to one
today.

Back in the old days, screws were cut threads, and the shank was
the same diameter as the outer edge of the threads. These days they're
"rolled" (I think this is the terminology), and the shank is
the same diameter as the inner diameter of the thread (more or less).
Old types really doesn't buy you a heck of a lot. Except having
drill pilot holes far more often, and to use three drills (thread,
shank and countersink) instead of two when compared to new type.

Furthermore, due to the manufacturing process, they had to make them
thicker to avoid defects weakening the screws.

For the most part, you don't need screws that beefy.

But you can certainly still get screws that heavy - #12s and #14s.
I almost never use those.

Too short? Can't find them where I am now but back in VT I used to get
them up 8 & 9" long. Used them for various things like restoring old real
wood shutters where the rails have to be replaced and screwed through the
wide styles.

You can get ordinary #14s up to about 5". There are longer ones -
"gutter screws". Lee Valley has them to at least 7".

Aside from that, the industry has switched to lag screws.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.